Bug#396954: Can mencoder be provided for at least some output formats?
On Wed, 5 Mar 2008 17:30:00 +0100 Diego Biurrun wrote: On Mon, Mar 03, 2008 at 10:18:59PM +0100, Francesco Poli wrote: On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 10:49:53 +0100 Diego Biurrun wrote: On Sat, Mar 01, 2008 at 01:15:00PM +0100, Francesco Poli wrote: [...] AFAICT, the usual Debian practice to deal with software patents is not worrying about them unless they are actively enforced. This is not a description of Debian's practice when dealing with software patents. It's what is usually said on debian-legal about the topic... Obviously, there's no warranty that each and every package in Debian follows consistently this practice. But it should, AFAIK. There is no such thing as consistency and I have not seen this practice in writing anywhere. I'd be glad to see pointers to such a place. I can provide pointers to many debian-legal messages where this Debian practice is stated (even by DDs). For instance: http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2004/01/msg00193.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2004/01/msg00209.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2004/06/msg00580.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2004/07/msg00702.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2004/09/msg00530.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2005/06/msg00350.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2005/07/msg00093.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2006/08/msg00168.html ... [...] Have you ever discussed this on debian-devel/debian-legal? Do you think it would be worth it? Do you think anybody would change opinions? I don't know. I have mixed experiences in trying to persuade the Debian Project to realize that there's a problem in something: sometimes it worked out great and the issue was fixed, sometimes there was no way to convince people to open their eyes and the issue is still there... -- http://frx.netsons.org/progs/scripts/refresh-pubring.html New! Version 0.6 available! What? See for yourself! . Francesco Poli . GnuPG key fpr == C979 F34B 27CE 5CD8 DC12 31B5 78F4 279B DD6D FCF4 pgpKRXE8bxwso.pgp Description: PGP signature
Bug#396954: Can mencoder be provided for at least some output formats?
On Mon, Mar 03, 2008 at 10:18:59PM +0100, Francesco Poli wrote: On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 10:49:53 +0100 Diego Biurrun wrote: On Sat, Mar 01, 2008 at 01:15:00PM +0100, Francesco Poli wrote: [...] AFAICT, the usual Debian practice to deal with software patents is not worrying about them unless they are actively enforced. This is not a description of Debian's practice when dealing with software patents. It's what is usually said on debian-legal about the topic... Obviously, there's no warranty that each and every package in Debian follows consistently this practice. But it should, AFAIK. There is no such thing as consistency and I have not seen this practice in writing anywhere. I'd be glad to see pointers to such a place. For example patents on browsers are actively enforced, but Debian turns a blind eye. In the sense that many people do *know* about those actively enforced patents and, still, pretend there is no problem? Yes. Think about the company Eolas, which managed to extort millions from Microsoft with a patent on browser plugins. For some mysterious reason encoding software is treated different from everything else. Mmmh, I was under the impression that audio/video MPEG encoding was one of the main fields encumbered by actively enforced software patents. You instead claim that there are other fields with similar issues, while the Debian Project seems to only care about MPEG patents... Yes. Note that distributors are never bothered about MPEG patents.. Have you ever discussed this on debian-devel/debian-legal? Do you think it would be worth it? Do you think anybody would change opinions? Diego -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#396954: Can mencoder be provided for at least some output formats?
On Sat, Mar 01, 2008 at 01:15:00PM +0100, Francesco Poli wrote: On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 12:29:44 +0100 Diego Biurrun wrote: On Sat, Mar 01, 2008 at 12:21:57AM +0100, Francesco Poli wrote: [...] Do you happen to know about any other third parties holding patents on Theora and *actively enforcing* them by compelling people to pay royalties or by forbidding people to exercise their freedoms on Theora? No, but I did not look at the 10s of software patents that exist around the world. Nobody with deep pockets uses Theora, so there is no incentive for patent holders to go after them. You should not actively search for infringed software patents. I have better ways to spend my time. AFAICT, the usual Debian practice to deal with software patents is not worrying about them unless they are actively enforced. This is not a description of Debian's practice when dealing with software patents. For example patents on browsers are actively enforced, but Debian turns a blind eye. For some mysterious reason encoding software is treated different from everything else. Diego -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#396954: Can mencoder be provided for at least some output formats?
On Mon, 3 Mar 2008 10:49:53 +0100 Diego Biurrun wrote: On Sat, Mar 01, 2008 at 01:15:00PM +0100, Francesco Poli wrote: [...] AFAICT, the usual Debian practice to deal with software patents is not worrying about them unless they are actively enforced. This is not a description of Debian's practice when dealing with software patents. It's what is usually said on debian-legal about the topic... Obviously, there's no warranty that each and every package in Debian follows consistently this practice. But it should, AFAIK. For example patents on browsers are actively enforced, but Debian turns a blind eye. In the sense that many people do *know* about those actively enforced patents and, still, pretend there is no problem? For some mysterious reason encoding software is treated different from everything else. Mmmh, I was under the impression that audio/video MPEG encoding was one of the main fields encumbered by actively enforced software patents. You instead claim that there are other fields with similar issues, while the Debian Project seems to only care about MPEG patents... Have you ever discussed this on debian-devel/debian-legal? -- http://frx.netsons.org/progs/scripts/refresh-pubring.html New! Version 0.6 available! What? See for yourself! . Francesco Poli . GnuPG key fpr == C979 F34B 27CE 5CD8 DC12 31B5 78F4 279B DD6D FCF4 pgpsbxp7NjrbA.pgp Description: PGP signature
Bug#396954: Can mencoder be provided for at least some output formats?
On Sat, Mar 01, 2008 at 12:21:57AM +0100, Francesco Poli wrote: On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 00:05:18 +0100 Diego Biurrun wrote: [...] Read the paragraph closely. They only say that *they* won't come knocking at your door. No word about third parties. I thought third parties were On2. Do you happen to know about any other third parties holding patents on Theora and *actively enforcing* them by compelling people to pay royalties or by forbidding people to exercise their freedoms on Theora? No, but I did not look at the 10s of software patents that exist around the world. Nobody with deep pockets uses Theora, so there is no incentive for patent holders to go after them. P.S.: I really hope projects like http://endsoftpatents.org/ manage to get a patent reform soon... :-( We all do... Diego -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#396954: Can mencoder be provided for at least some output formats?
On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 12:29:44 +0100 Diego Biurrun wrote: On Sat, Mar 01, 2008 at 12:21:57AM +0100, Francesco Poli wrote: [...] Do you happen to know about any other third parties holding patents on Theora and *actively enforcing* them by compelling people to pay royalties or by forbidding people to exercise their freedoms on Theora? No, but I did not look at the 10s of software patents that exist around the world. Nobody with deep pockets uses Theora, so there is no incentive for patent holders to go after them. You should not actively search for infringed software patents. AFAICT, the usual Debian practice to deal with software patents is not worrying about them unless they are actively enforced. It's obviously an imperfect way to deal with them, but on the other hand, should the Debian Project worry about each and every patent that has been granted in at least one jurisdiction, the development of Debian OSes would have to stop immediately and the Debian Project would have to shut all its servers down and declare defeat (since almost any computer program infringes at least one software patent, even though most software patents are either invalid or anyway unenforced). -- http://frx.netsons.org/progs/scripts/refresh-pubring.html New! Version 0.6 available! What? See for yourself! . Francesco Poli . GnuPG key fpr == C979 F34B 27CE 5CD8 DC12 31B5 78F4 279B DD6D FCF4 pgpfnYMx0yYio.pgp Description: PGP signature
Bug#396954: Can mencoder be provided for at least some output formats?
On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 22:22:35 +0100 Diego Biurrun wrote: [...] Who told you that Theora was not patent-encumbered? Have you ever seen anything to substantiate that claim? Because I haven't ... Well, Xiph claims it is unencumbered by patents, in the sense that there are no patent-royalties that must be paid in order to use/sell/implement the compression format. Quoting from http://www.theora.org/benefits/ : | Theora comes without licensing fees. Neither commercial nor private use | will make you owe money to us. The Theora specification is in the | public domain, its reference implementation is open source and subject | to a license which permits inclusion in proprietary commercial | products. On2, which owns patents that apply to the technical | foundations of Theora, granted an unrevocable free license regarding | those patents. I thought this was true. Do you have any reason to believe that Xiph is lying? -- http://frx.netsons.org/progs/scripts/refresh-pubring.html New! Version 0.6 available! What? See for yourself! . Francesco Poli . GnuPG key fpr == C979 F34B 27CE 5CD8 DC12 31B5 78F4 279B DD6D FCF4 pgpjiieqOebfl.pgp Description: PGP signature
Bug#396954: Can mencoder be provided for at least some output formats?
On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 11:00:47PM +0100, Francesco Poli wrote: On Wed, 27 Feb 2008 22:22:35 +0100 Diego Biurrun wrote: [...] Who told you that Theora was not patent-encumbered? Have you ever seen anything to substantiate that claim? Because I haven't ... Well, Xiph claims it is unencumbered by patents, in the sense that there are no patent-royalties that must be paid in order to use/sell/implement the compression format. Quoting from http://www.theora.org/benefits/ : | Theora comes without licensing fees. Neither commercial nor private use | will make you owe money to us. The Theora specification is in the | public domain, its reference implementation is open source and subject | to a license which permits inclusion in proprietary commercial | products. On2, which owns patents that apply to the technical | foundations of Theora, granted an unrevocable free license regarding | those patents. I thought this was true. Do you have any reason to believe that Xiph is lying? Read the paragraph closely. They only say that *they* won't come knocking at your door. No word about third parties. Diego -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#396954: Can mencoder be provided for at least some output formats?
On Sat, 1 Mar 2008 00:05:18 +0100 Diego Biurrun wrote: [...] Read the paragraph closely. They only say that *they* won't come knocking at your door. No word about third parties. I thought third parties were On2. Do you happen to know about any other third parties holding patents on Theora and *actively enforcing* them by compelling people to pay royalties or by forbidding people to exercise their freedoms on Theora? P.S.: I really hope projects like http://endsoftpatents.org/ manage to get a patent reform soon... :-( -- http://frx.netsons.org/progs/scripts/refresh-pubring.html New! Version 0.6 available! What? See for yourself! . Francesco Poli . GnuPG key fpr == C979 F34B 27CE 5CD8 DC12 31B5 78F4 279B DD6D FCF4 pgpEVcqRzZ6Ih.pgp Description: PGP signature
Bug#396954: Can mencoder be provided for at least some output formats?
On Wed, Feb 27, 2008 at 02:22:02PM +0100, A Mennucc wrote: I have had this same idea for long time, and I would love to do that. Please don't, a crippled MEncoder will not help anybody. Note that MPEG-4 encoding is already available through FFmpeg, but hey, it was hard enough to get MPlayer into Debian. On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 11:10:13PM +0100, Francesco Poli wrote: I think mencoder could be useful to recode a video from a mplayer-readable format to Ogg/Theora (or to other patent-unencumbered formats). recently the SNOW video codec reached a good status, it may be another option http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_(codec) though I did not try it personally, and moreover I cannot tell if it is patent-unencumbered Who told you that Theora was not patent-encumbered? Have you ever seen anything to substantiate that claim? Because I haven't ... Diego -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#396954: Can mencoder be provided for at least some output formats?
hi I have had this same idea for long time, and I would love to do that. The main problem is that AFAIK you cannot insert an OGG audio inside an AVI (don't know why...) ; and mencoder can currently output only in AVI or MPEG , not in OGG OGM MKV. On Wed, Feb 20, 2008 at 11:10:13PM +0100, Francesco Poli wrote: I think mencoder could be useful to recode a video from a mplayer-readable format to Ogg/Theora (or to other patent-unencumbered formats). recently the SNOW video codec reached a good status, it may be another option http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_(codec) though I did not try it personally, and moreover I cannot tell if it is patent-unencumbered a. -- Andrea Mennucc The EULA sounds like it was written by a team of lawyers who want to tell me what I can't do, and the GPL sounds like it was written by a human being who wants me to know what I can do. Anonymous,http://www.securityfocus.com/columnists/420 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#396954: Can mencoder be provided for at least some output formats?
Hi! Thanks for maintaining mplayer in Debian. I've just read through this bug log and I must confess that I don't fully understand why mencoder was *fully* dropped from the packaging. I understand that a functionality such as MPEG encoding is going to cause patent-related issues (because there seem to be actively enforced patents on MPEG encoding, IIRC): so, it's OK to disable it [1]. What I don't understand is: can mencoder be included in the package, at least with those output formats that won't cause issues? I mean: it is my understanding that mencoder can be used to convert from any mplayer-readable format to a number of output formats, including, e.g., Ogg/Theora... I think mencoder could be useful to recode a video from a mplayer-readable format to Ogg/Theora (or to other patent-unencumbered formats). Am I wrong? [1] while we wait for the patent systems to be reformed for the best... -- http://frx.netsons.org/progs/scripts/refresh-pubring.html New! Version 0.6 available! What? See for yourself! . Francesco Poli . GnuPG key fpr == C979 F34B 27CE 5CD8 DC12 31B5 78F4 279B DD6D FCF4 pgpB6gA0BsJui.pgp Description: PGP signature
