Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 10:39:32AM -0400, Joey Hess wrote: Mike Hommey wrote: The fact is users don't *always* have to set this, because far from all websites require it. If so many users were impacted, we would be drowned under piles of bug reports about this issue, yet, there is only a few of them (only one, iirc). A few user reports of sites that don't work. http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2008/05/msg00532.html https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=378644 As you can see, this is also a problem for Firefox alpha releases, that don't use the Firefox name, as well as Seamonkey and others. http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2008/05/msg00631.html Same as above http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2008/05/msg00580.html https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=303707 http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2008/05/msg00074.html Not an example, merely an answer. http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2007/11/msg01517.html Same as above http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2007/11/msg00346.html Blahblah http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2007/09/msg01956.html Google Toolbar is broken with iceweasel 3.0, better not try to fix this http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2007/08/msg02474.html Seems like a lot of people know how to work around stupid sites http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2007/08/msg02480.html https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=121832 http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2007/08/msg02362.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2007/08/msg02074.htmlo Gmail works in iceweasel, now, so Google was able to fix this, obviously http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2007/07/msg02776.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2007/04/msg04484.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2007/04/msg04382.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2007/01/msg03730.html A candidate for Report broken web site http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2007/01/msg03183.html https://bugzilla.mozilla.org/show_bug.cgi?id=389201 http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2006/12/msg00334.html Google toolbar again http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?t=26760highlight=firefox+iceweasel+agent Always the same examples http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?t=14861highlight=firefox+iceweasel+agent Not even a failure example, just people wanting a kewl firefox ua. http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?t=21889highlight=firefox+iceweasel+agent Google toolbar again. A great number of reports compared to the number of sites concerned... we're still far from *all* users needing to set this in *all* cases. (and if these same numerous users were complaining to the site admins instead of working around these issues, users would probably not even need these workarounds by now) Mozilla.org even doesn't add Firefox to their own development releases, that probably more people than iceweasel users alone use, why should we even bother? And again, how is this even relevant as to whether iceweasel might be pulled by tasksel or not ? Now, for something relevant, do you really want me to get started with crash reports ? Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 10:24:59PM +0200, Mike Hommey wrote: Now, for something relevant, do you really want me to get started with crash reports ? It seems I should have read the bug backlog... Le mardi 03 juin 2008 à 12:04 -0300, Otavio Salvador a écrit : Cool, are you finally willing to drop iceweasel from the gnome-desktop task then? I'd say to drop epiphany. Iceweasel/Firefox are the expected ones. The GNOME browser *is* Epiphany. Epiphany has its own user experience, and is different from Firefox. And it's even going to be even more different than Firefox in lenny+1, since Epiphany is definetely switching to webkit, as well as most (all?) gnome applications currently using gecko. This means that while Epiphany and Iceweasel are 99.9% the same today and in Lenny, they won't in Lenny+1. It is *not* a good idea to not have epiphany as the gnome browser in Lenny. Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
I'm not suprised that these sites are known. My point is that our users devote a significant amount of traffic (I generally only picked on message from each thread) to figuring out how to work around them. Mike Hommey wrote: even bother? And again, how is this even relevant as to whether iceweasel might be pulled by tasksel or not ? I've already discussed that twice in my bug report. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
* Mike Hommey ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 03:48:32AM -0400, Eric Dorland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * Mike Hommey ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 03:25:08AM -0400, Eric Dorland wrote: * Joey Hess ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Eric Dorland wrote: Well I think Google generally does treat the Iceweasel user agent properly. Not in the case of maps.google.com, where the sidebar cannot be hidden in iceweasel, can in firefox. I'm afraid that documenting it in README.Debian won't help desktop users who just find that this strange iceweasel browser we install by default doesn't work on sites that firefox works on. Could we do it in a more prominent perhaps? FWIW, I got from the README.Debian to #354622, but I was unable to from there figure out how to quickly and easily change the user agent. A more prominent thing might be a hyperlink directly to the relevant about:config setting from the default start page .. or a pre-installed user agent switcher that has firefox in it as an option. I think that something like that would go a certian distance to making it accessible to users, though it would still be a bother. I thought about this this week and I've come to agree with Joey's position. We could document exactly how to change the useragent for the user, but why wouldn't they do this? From there perspective there are all upsides and no downsides to making the useragent be Firefox, And if everyone is going to mechanically change it (or want to change it), then it's not really a good default. While I agree that websites shouldn't be abusing useragent strings the way they do, we can't win this fight on our own and in the mean time our users are getting broken results that are in our power to fix. Thoughts? We have plenty other browsers that are not Firefox and don't try to claim to be Firefox... In the case of Iceweasel it is in fact 99.9% Firefox, so claiming it's Firefox isn't much of a stretch. In the case of kazehakase, galeon and epiphany, rendering-wise, it is also 99.9% Firefox. Do you suggest they replace their user-agent, too? Possibly. It should at least be an option to work around broken sites. As much as we would like it not to be so, even people who should know better are not handling non-Firefox useragent strings correctly. We can present the user with documentation on how to change the useragent string, but why wouldn't they change it? There's no downside from there perspective, sites just work better. If the user should always set this themselves, then it should be the default. The fact is users don't *always* have to set this, because far from all websites require it. If so many users were impacted, we would be drowned under piles of bug reports about this issue, yet, there is only a few of them (only one, iirc). With concerning issues, we usually get much more, especially when they are longstanding issues. Most sites do work. But the breakages are subtle and just reinforces the perception that Iceweasel is inferior to Firefox. I feel like I keep reiterating this but i think it's the central point. If we took J. Random Debian User and sat them down and explained you can have User-Agent Iceweasel or Firefox and explained the pros and cons to them which would the pick? From their perspective there is no downside to using Firefox. So shouldn't we represent their interests in this? Finally, for those sites that do bad user agent sniffing, there is a a Report Broken Site item in the Help menu that users can use (though I haven't verified if unbranding didn't break it). What does that do exactly? Send a report to mozilla? Will they actually put pressure on websites to fix this? -- Eric Dorland [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: #61138586, Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 11:33:04PM -0400, Eric Dorland wrote: What does that do exactly? Send a report to mozilla? Will they actually put pressure on websites to fix this? They have an evangelist team supposed to do that, yes. Now, reading [1] it is not clear whether they use stuff from the broken web site reported for that. Mike 1. http://www.mozilla.org/projects/tech-evangelism/site/procedures.html#file-new -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
Mike Hommey wrote: On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 05:54:22PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote: Mike Hommey wrote: Is the purpose of tasksel to include firefox or a browser ? The only reason to include a browser other than the default gnome/kde browser is to include a browser that people prefer over those. My impression is that firefox is currently that browser. And they prefer it because it satisfies some (few) badass websites badly sniffing the user-agent ? I doubt that. Based on what I've seen in debian-user and elsewhere, yes, things like google maps not working the same in iceweasel as in firefox have a significant detriment to user confidence that they're actually getting something equivilant to firefox. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 02:12:15AM -0400, Joey Hess wrote: Mike Hommey wrote: On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 05:54:22PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote: Mike Hommey wrote: Is the purpose of tasksel to include firefox or a browser ? The only reason to include a browser other than the default gnome/kde browser is to include a browser that people prefer over those. My impression is that firefox is currently that browser. And they prefer it because it satisfies some (few) badass websites badly sniffing the user-agent ? I doubt that. Based on what I've seen in debian-user and elsewhere, yes, things like google maps not working the same in iceweasel as in firefox have a significant detriment to user confidence that they're actually getting something equivilant to firefox. I meant: do they prefer firefox over *other* browsers because of that? Anyways, I'm pretty sure google maps could be fixed ; gmail has already been... Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 02:12:15AM -0400, Joey Hess wrote: Mike Hommey wrote: On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 05:54:22PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote: Mike Hommey wrote: Is the purpose of tasksel to include firefox or a browser ? The only reason to include a browser other than the default gnome/kde browser is to include a browser that people prefer over those. My impression is that firefox is currently that browser. And they prefer it because it satisfies some (few) badass websites badly sniffing the user-agent ? I doubt that. Based on what I've seen in debian-user and elsewhere, yes, things like google maps not working the same in iceweasel as in firefox have a significant detriment to user confidence that they're actually getting something equivilant to firefox. Also, users have much more problems with printers, default settings, crashes and X bugs than with user-agent sniffing. *These* would be valid reasons to opt out. Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
* Mike Hommey ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 03:25:08AM -0400, Eric Dorland wrote: * Joey Hess ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Eric Dorland wrote: Well I think Google generally does treat the Iceweasel user agent properly. Not in the case of maps.google.com, where the sidebar cannot be hidden in iceweasel, can in firefox. I'm afraid that documenting it in README.Debian won't help desktop users who just find that this strange iceweasel browser we install by default doesn't work on sites that firefox works on. Could we do it in a more prominent perhaps? FWIW, I got from the README.Debian to #354622, but I was unable to from there figure out how to quickly and easily change the user agent. A more prominent thing might be a hyperlink directly to the relevant about:config setting from the default start page .. or a pre-installed user agent switcher that has firefox in it as an option. I think that something like that would go a certian distance to making it accessible to users, though it would still be a bother. I thought about this this week and I've come to agree with Joey's position. We could document exactly how to change the useragent for the user, but why wouldn't they do this? From there perspective there are all upsides and no downsides to making the useragent be Firefox, And if everyone is going to mechanically change it (or want to change it), then it's not really a good default. While I agree that websites shouldn't be abusing useragent strings the way they do, we can't win this fight on our own and in the mean time our users are getting broken results that are in our power to fix. Thoughts? We have plenty other browsers that are not Firefox and don't try to claim to be Firefox... In the case of Iceweasel it is in fact 99.9% Firefox, so claiming it's Firefox isn't much of a stretch. As much as we would like it not to be so, even people who should know better are not handling non-Firefox useragent strings correctly. We can present the user with documentation on how to change the useragent string, but why wouldn't they change it? There's no downside from there perspective, sites just work better. If the user should always set this themselves, then it should be the default. -- Eric Dorland [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: #61138586, Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 03:48:32AM -0400, Eric Dorland [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: * Mike Hommey ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 03:25:08AM -0400, Eric Dorland wrote: * Joey Hess ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Eric Dorland wrote: Well I think Google generally does treat the Iceweasel user agent properly. Not in the case of maps.google.com, where the sidebar cannot be hidden in iceweasel, can in firefox. I'm afraid that documenting it in README.Debian won't help desktop users who just find that this strange iceweasel browser we install by default doesn't work on sites that firefox works on. Could we do it in a more prominent perhaps? FWIW, I got from the README.Debian to #354622, but I was unable to from there figure out how to quickly and easily change the user agent. A more prominent thing might be a hyperlink directly to the relevant about:config setting from the default start page .. or a pre-installed user agent switcher that has firefox in it as an option. I think that something like that would go a certian distance to making it accessible to users, though it would still be a bother. I thought about this this week and I've come to agree with Joey's position. We could document exactly how to change the useragent for the user, but why wouldn't they do this? From there perspective there are all upsides and no downsides to making the useragent be Firefox, And if everyone is going to mechanically change it (or want to change it), then it's not really a good default. While I agree that websites shouldn't be abusing useragent strings the way they do, we can't win this fight on our own and in the mean time our users are getting broken results that are in our power to fix. Thoughts? We have plenty other browsers that are not Firefox and don't try to claim to be Firefox... In the case of Iceweasel it is in fact 99.9% Firefox, so claiming it's Firefox isn't much of a stretch. In the case of kazehakase, galeon and epiphany, rendering-wise, it is also 99.9% Firefox. Do you suggest they replace their user-agent, too? As much as we would like it not to be so, even people who should know better are not handling non-Firefox useragent strings correctly. We can present the user with documentation on how to change the useragent string, but why wouldn't they change it? There's no downside from there perspective, sites just work better. If the user should always set this themselves, then it should be the default. The fact is users don't *always* have to set this, because far from all websites require it. If so many users were impacted, we would be drowned under piles of bug reports about this issue, yet, there is only a few of them (only one, iirc). With concerning issues, we usually get much more, especially when they are longstanding issues. Finally, for those sites that do bad user agent sniffing, there is a a Report Broken Site item in the Help menu that users can use (though I haven't verified if unbranding didn't break it). Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
Mike Hommey wrote: The fact is users don't *always* have to set this, because far from all websites require it. If so many users were impacted, we would be drowned under piles of bug reports about this issue, yet, there is only a few of them (only one, iirc). A few user reports of sites that don't work. http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2008/05/msg00532.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2008/05/msg00631.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2008/05/msg00580.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2008/05/msg00074.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2007/11/msg01517.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2007/11/msg00346.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2007/09/msg01956.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2007/08/msg02474.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2007/08/msg02480.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2007/08/msg02362.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2007/08/msg02074.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2007/07/msg02776.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2007/04/msg04484.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2007/04/msg04382.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2007/01/msg03730.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2007/01/msg03183.html http://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2006/12/msg00334.html http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?t=26760highlight=firefox+iceweasel+agent http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?t=14861highlight=firefox+iceweasel+agent http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?t=21889highlight=firefox+iceweasel+agent (Incomplete for forums.d.n) -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
* Joey Hess ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Eric Dorland wrote: Well I think Google generally does treat the Iceweasel user agent properly. Not in the case of maps.google.com, where the sidebar cannot be hidden in iceweasel, can in firefox. I'm afraid that documenting it in README.Debian won't help desktop users who just find that this strange iceweasel browser we install by default doesn't work on sites that firefox works on. Could we do it in a more prominent perhaps? FWIW, I got from the README.Debian to #354622, but I was unable to from there figure out how to quickly and easily change the user agent. A more prominent thing might be a hyperlink directly to the relevant about:config setting from the default start page .. or a pre-installed user agent switcher that has firefox in it as an option. I think that something like that would go a certian distance to making it accessible to users, though it would still be a bother. I thought about this this week and I've come to agree with Joey's position. We could document exactly how to change the useragent for the user, but why wouldn't they do this? From there perspective there are all upsides and no downsides to making the useragent be Firefox, And if everyone is going to mechanically change it (or want to change it), then it's not really a good default. While I agree that websites shouldn't be abusing useragent strings the way they do, we can't win this fight on our own and in the mean time our users are getting broken results that are in our power to fix. Thoughts? -- Eric Dorland [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: #61138586, Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 03:25:08AM -0400, Eric Dorland wrote: * Joey Hess ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Eric Dorland wrote: Well I think Google generally does treat the Iceweasel user agent properly. Not in the case of maps.google.com, where the sidebar cannot be hidden in iceweasel, can in firefox. I'm afraid that documenting it in README.Debian won't help desktop users who just find that this strange iceweasel browser we install by default doesn't work on sites that firefox works on. Could we do it in a more prominent perhaps? FWIW, I got from the README.Debian to #354622, but I was unable to from there figure out how to quickly and easily change the user agent. A more prominent thing might be a hyperlink directly to the relevant about:config setting from the default start page .. or a pre-installed user agent switcher that has firefox in it as an option. I think that something like that would go a certian distance to making it accessible to users, though it would still be a bother. I thought about this this week and I've come to agree with Joey's position. We could document exactly how to change the useragent for the user, but why wouldn't they do this? From there perspective there are all upsides and no downsides to making the useragent be Firefox, And if everyone is going to mechanically change it (or want to change it), then it's not really a good default. While I agree that websites shouldn't be abusing useragent strings the way they do, we can't win this fight on our own and in the mean time our users are getting broken results that are in our power to fix. Thoughts? We have plenty other browsers that are not Firefox and don't try to claim to be Firefox... Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
Mike Hommey wrote: Is the purpose of tasksel to include firefox or a browser ? The only reason to include a browser other than the default gnome/kde browser is to include a browser that people prefer over those. My impression is that firefox is currently that browser. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
Mike Hommey wrote: We have plenty other browsers that are not Firefox and don't try to claim to be Firefox... Tasksel does not include those other web browsers in the desktop task. If iceweasel is not intended to be the closet approximation of firefox that debian can provide, there's really no reason to continue including it in the task.. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 04:50:40PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote: Mike Hommey wrote: We have plenty other browsers that are not Firefox and don't try to claim to be Firefox... Tasksel does not include those other web browsers in the desktop task. If iceweasel is not intended to be the closet approximation of firefox that debian can provide, there's really no reason to continue including it in the task.. Is the purpose of tasksel to include firefox or a browser ? Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 05:54:22PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote: Mike Hommey wrote: Is the purpose of tasksel to include firefox or a browser ? The only reason to include a browser other than the default gnome/kde browser is to include a browser that people prefer over those. My impression is that firefox is currently that browser. And they prefer it because it satisfies some (few) badass websites badly sniffing the user-agent ? I doubt that. Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
Emilio Pozuelo Monfort: Or add brasero and drop serpentine. brasero is really nice and intuitive IMHO. +1 for brasero. While serpentine can do nothing more than burning audio CDs, brasero can also burn data CDs and DVDs. Additionally it has a more common look if compared with NERO, which is the software of choice for most people using a Windows system. -- Dipl.-Phys. Fabian Greffrath Ruhr-Universität Bochum Lehrstuhl für Energieanlagen und Energieprozesstechnik (LEAT) Universitätsstr. 150, IB 3/134 D-44780 Bochum Telefon: +49 (0)234 / 32-26334 Fax: +49 (0)234 / 32-14227 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
Le dimanche 22 juin 2008 à 22:54 -0400, Joey Hess a écrit : I checked every package in tasksel's current gnome task to ensure it was still being pulled in using the new meta-gnome2 and the new task... # several packages recommend this, make sure it's available in case # things that depend on it are not available gksu I've left this in. I agree it should indeed be an explicit dependency, and not only for the installer. I've added it to gnome-desktop-environment for a later upload. # May not get installed unless forced, if some other browser satisfies the # dependency, so force it. epiphany-browser This comment, and bug #370098 still seem to apply. g-d-e depends on: epiphany-browser (= 2.22.2) | gnome-www-browser, iceweasel-gnome-support provides gnome-www-browser, so aptitude since aptitude is installing iceweasel anyway during the tasksel run, it might choose to skip epiphany. So I've re-added this to the task. If you use gnome, it will always be pulled by epiphany-extensions anyway. gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg AFAIK this is used by rhythmbox, and probably totem as well, and I don't see any obvious dependencies pulling it in. (totem recommends it). So I think it needs to stay in the task. Another omission on my side. I didn't check in detail to see what additional packages you might have added to the task as dependencies of gnome -- the point of merging is so you can do that. Indeed, but please don’t hesitate if you find some new dependency looks useless or too big. But I did notice that you have included swfdec-mozilla. Tasksel has a separate bug open about flash, #467324. I've been leaning toward swfdec, but still feel that any decision between it and gnash is fairly arbitrary, and am still not sure that shipping flash that is known to still fail on my websites will be a net win for users. Also, if swfdec-mozilla is included, it should be put right in the main desktop task, so it will be available in iceweasel on kde and xfce too. Upstream made the choice for us. Now that swfdec-gnome is part of the official GNOME release (see gnome-desktop-environment), swfdec-mozilla is only here to bring the browser on par with the desktop’s abilities. Current version of the task (from git) attached. Ah, I see the latest version is now in git. Maybe you could remove the old svn.debian.org to not confuse users of this old and boring technology? BTW, could you take a look at #400543? Ah, indeed. I will add it to the gnome package, as it is necessary for spell checking in evolution. Please don’t add it to the task, though, as the next version will use libenchant instead. Cheers, -- .''`. : :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code. `. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to `-our own. Resistance is futile. signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
Josselin Mouette wrote: # May not get installed unless forced, if some other browser satisfies the # dependency, so force it. epiphany-browser This comment, and bug #370098 still seem to apply. g-d-e depends on: epiphany-browser (= 2.22.2) | gnome-www-browser, iceweasel-gnome-support provides gnome-www-browser, so aptitude since aptitude is installing iceweasel anyway during the tasksel run, it might choose to skip epiphany. So I've re-added this to the task. If you use gnome, it will always be pulled by epiphany-extensions anyway. It seemed to me that epiphany-extensions depends on epiphany-gecko, but that epiphany-browser was not pulled in by that. But I did notice that you have included swfdec-mozilla. Tasksel has a separate bug open about flash, #467324. I've been leaning toward swfdec, but still feel that any decision between it and gnash is fairly arbitrary, and am still not sure that shipping flash that is known to still fail on my websites will be a net win for users. Also, if swfdec-mozilla is included, it should be put right in the main desktop task, so it will be available in iceweasel on kde and xfce too. Upstream made the choice for us. Now that swfdec-gnome is part of the official GNOME release (see gnome-desktop-environment), swfdec-mozilla is only here to bring the browser on par with the desktop’s abilities. There's a big difference between choosing to use swfdec to display flash files from Desktop, and using it to display flash files from the whole web. Has the GNOME project really decided to use swfdec in browsers by default? All I was aware of was them having decided to use swfdec-gnome so far. Current version of the task (from git) attached. Ah, I see the latest version is now in git. Maybe you could remove the old svn.debian.org to not confuse users of this old and boring technology? I had meant to zap trunk, thanks for the reminder. BTW, could you take a look at #400543? Ah, indeed. I will add it to the gnome package, as it is necessary for spell checking in evolution. Please don’t add it to the task, though, as the next version will use libenchant instead. Reassigned to you then. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
Le lundi 23 juin 2008 à 11:50 -0400, Joey Hess a écrit : If you use gnome, it will always be pulled by epiphany-extensions anyway. It seemed to me that epiphany-extensions depends on epiphany-gecko, but that epiphany-browser was not pulled in by that. The epiphany-browser package only contains the /usr/bin/epiphany wrapper script, which is only here for backwards compatibility, so no need for it on new installations. Upstream made the choice for us. Now that swfdec-gnome is part of the official GNOME release (see gnome-desktop-environment), swfdec-mozilla is only here to bring the browser on par with the desktop’s abilities. There's a big difference between choosing to use swfdec to display flash files from Desktop, and using it to display flash files from the whole web. Has the GNOME project really decided to use swfdec in browsers by default? All I was aware of was them having decided to use swfdec-gnome so far. As GNOME is moving away from Gecko, they are not promoting technologies tied to it, but given that GNOME developers are working on swfdec, I think it is only a matter of time until epiphany integrates swfdec one way or another. -- .''`. : :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code. `. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to `-our own. Resistance is futile. signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
Josselin Mouette wrote: Le lundi 23 juin 2008 à 11:50 -0400, Joey Hess a écrit : If you use gnome, it will always be pulled by epiphany-extensions anyway. It seemed to me that epiphany-extensions depends on epiphany-gecko, but that epiphany-browser was not pulled in by that. The epiphany-browser package only contains the /usr/bin/epiphany wrapper script, which is only here for backwards compatibility, so no need for it on new installations. Won't the epiphany maintainers want people to still have epiphany installed to handle the transition to epiphany-webkit when it becomes default? Upstream made the choice for us. Now that swfdec-gnome is part of the official GNOME release (see gnome-desktop-environment), swfdec-mozilla is only here to bring the browser on par with the desktop’s abilities. There's a big difference between choosing to use swfdec to display flash files from Desktop, and using it to display flash files from the whole web. Has the GNOME project really decided to use swfdec in browsers by default? All I was aware of was them having decided to use swfdec-gnome so far. As GNOME is moving away from Gecko, they are not promoting technologies tied to it, but given that GNOME developers are working on swfdec, I think it is only a matter of time until epiphany integrates swfdec one way or another. It's clearly only a matter of time until either swfdec or gnash is included in desktops by default. Question is, is it time *yet*. If we had included these by default a year ago, we would have clearly done it too early. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
Le mardi 03 juin 2008 à 22:32 +0200, Josselin Mouette a écrit : The current version can be found there: http://svn.debian.org/wsvn/pkg-gnome/desktop/unstable/meta-gnome2/debian/control.in?op=filerev=0sc=0 I have just uploaded meta-gnome2 2.22.2~2 to NEW (because of the new gnome-accessibility package). Following the discussion and this upload, I’m attaching a patch for the gnome-desktop task. All packages in the task but one are now Recommends or Suggests of gnome. BTW if you want to setup an a11y-desktop task, now you have the basis for it. Cheers, -- .''`. : :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code. `. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to `-our own. Resistance is futile. Index: tasks/gnome-desktop === --- tasks/gnome-desktop (révision 2113) +++ tasks/gnome-desktop (copie de travail) @@ -7,65 +7,37 @@ This task provides basic desktop software using the Gnome desktop environment. Key: -# The basics of gnome, not the whole thing. - gnome-desktop-environment +# The complete gnome environment, with selected extras + gnome Packages: task-fields Packages-list: -# May not get installed unless forced, if some other browser satisfies the -# dependency, so force it. - epiphany-browser - epiphany-extensions -# most of the gnome metapackage, except for desktop stuff - gnome-cups-manager - gnome-themes-extras -# rhythmbox and gstreamer plugins - rhythmbox - gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg -# allow video playback in mozilla/xulrunner browsers - totem-mozilla +# Most of the recommends and suggests of the gnome metapackage # enable debian menus menu-xdg # partition editing gparted # package management - synaptic update-notifier - gnome-app-install -# debconf gnome frontend - libgnome2-perl -# click on deb to install - gdebi -# everyone uses bittorrent these days, right? - transmission-gtk -# and rss. epiphany integrates with liferea +# RSS reader liferea -# and does instant messanging +# instant messaging pidgin -# and word processing +# GNOME support in OOo openoffice.org-gnome -# and like clones of exchange with far too many features for some reason - evolution-exchange - evolution-plugins - evolution-webcal openoffice.org-evolution -# various applets that are useful to have - deskbar-applet # remote logins, both to windows and X tsclient # add gnome support for iceweasel, which is pulled in via the main desktop task iceweasel-gnome-support # hardware browser, broader scope than hal hardinfo -# cd/dvd burner suite - gnomebaker -# desktop network setup +# network roaming network-manager-gnome -# bluetooth applet for gnome - bluez-gnome # support for scanners xsane -# gui for configuration of the print server - foomatic-gui -# recommended by file-roller, useful for interop with windows - arj - p7zip +# vector drawing + inkscape +# printer hotplugging + hal-cups-utils +# digital camera import + gthumb signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
Josselin Mouette wrote: Le mardi 03 juin 2008 à 22:32 +0200, Josselin Mouette a écrit : The current version can be found there: http://svn.debian.org/wsvn/pkg-gnome/desktop/unstable/meta-gnome2/debian/control.in?op=filerev=0sc=0 I have just uploaded meta-gnome2 2.22.2~2 to NEW (because of the new gnome-accessibility package). Following the discussion and this upload, I’m attaching a patch for the gnome-desktop task. All packages in the task but one are now Recommends or Suggests of gnome. I checked every package in tasksel's current gnome task to ensure it was still being pulled in using the new meta-gnome2 and the new task... # several packages recommend this, make sure it's available in case # things that depend on it are not available gksu I've left this in. # May not get installed unless forced, if some other browser satisfies the # dependency, so force it. epiphany-browser This comment, and bug #370098 still seem to apply. g-d-e depends on: epiphany-browser (= 2.22.2) | gnome-www-browser, iceweasel-gnome-support provides gnome-www-browser, so aptitude since aptitude is installing iceweasel anyway during the tasksel run, it might choose to skip epiphany. So I've re-added this to the task. gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg AFAIK this is used by rhythmbox, and probably totem as well, and I don't see any obvious dependencies pulling it in. (totem recommends it). So I think it needs to stay in the task. I didn't check in detail to see what additional packages you might have added to the task as dependencies of gnome -- the point of merging is so you can do that. But I did notice that you have included swfdec-mozilla. Tasksel has a separate bug open about flash, #467324. I've been leaning toward swfdec, but still feel that any decision between it and gnash is fairly arbitrary, and am still not sure that shipping flash that is known to still fail on my websites will be a net win for users. Also, if swfdec-mozilla is included, it should be put right in the main desktop task, so it will be available in iceweasel on kde and xfce too. Current version of the task (from git) attached. BTW, could you take a look at #400543? -- see shy jo Task: gnome-desktop Relevance: 8 Section: user Enhances: desktop Test-preferred-desktop: gnome Description: GNOME desktop environment This task provides basic desktop software using the GNOME desktop environment. Key: # The complete gnome environment, with selected extras gnome Packages: task-fields Packages-list: # add gnome support for iceweasel, which is pulled in via the main desktop task iceweasel-gnome-support # several packages recommend this, make sure it's available in case # things that depend on it are not available gksu # May not get installed unless forced, if some other browser satisfies the # dependency, so force it. epiphany-browser # for wma files, etc (recommended by totem) gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg # The remainder of packages in this list are recommends/suggests of the # gnome metapackage (or of gnome-office in a few cases). # # enable debian menus menu-xdg # partition editing gparted # package management update-notifier # RSS reader liferea # instant messaging pidgin # GNOME support in OOo openoffice.org-gnome openoffice.org-evolution # remote logins, both to windows and X tsclient # hardware browser, broader scope than hal hardinfo # network roaming network-manager-gnome # support for scanners xsane # vector drawing inkscape # printer hotplugging hal-cups-utils # digital camera import gthumb signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
* Joey Hess ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Eric Dorland wrote: So the user agent thing is fairly well documented at http://bugs.debian.org/399633, but basically it's our stand against user-agent insanity. We could of course make it say Firefox easily, but this certainly seems a bit defeatist. s/defeatist/defeated/ I realized this battle was over when discussion on debian-user revieled that google maps behaved differently in firefox than iceweasel, because it used a firefox-UA specific test to enable a feature (closing the sidebar to make the map take up the full screen). If the top website out there gets it wrong, the battle is effectively over; right or wrong no longer really matters (victors write history etc). Well I think Google generally does treat the Iceweasel user agent properly. Not everyone understands these issues as well as they should, mistakes get made. I mean we could set the User-Agent to IE like some other browsers do, that would make more sites work. I think we should almost certainly document the workaround better in the README.Debian. Of course I highly respect Joey's opinion so I'm open to more convincing. I'm afraid that documenting it in README.Debian won't help desktop users who just find that this strange iceweasel browser we install by default doesn't work on sites that firefox works on. Could we do it in a more prominent perhaps? -- Eric Dorland [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: #61138586, Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
On Mon, Jun 16, 2008 at 04:29:43AM -0400, Eric Dorland wrote: * Joey Hess ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Eric Dorland wrote: So the user agent thing is fairly well documented at http://bugs.debian.org/399633, but basically it's our stand against user-agent insanity. We could of course make it say Firefox easily, but this certainly seems a bit defeatist. s/defeatist/defeated/ I realized this battle was over when discussion on debian-user revieled that google maps behaved differently in firefox than iceweasel, because it used a firefox-UA specific test to enable a feature (closing the sidebar to make the map take up the full screen). If the top website out there gets it wrong, the battle is effectively over; right or wrong no longer really matters (victors write history etc). Well I think Google generally does treat the Iceweasel user agent properly. Not everyone understands these issues as well as they should, mistakes get made. I mean we could set the User-Agent to IE like some other browsers do, that would make more sites work. I think we should almost certainly document the workaround better in the README.Debian. Of course I highly respect Joey's opinion so I'm open to more convincing. I'm afraid that documenting it in README.Debian won't help desktop users who just find that this strange iceweasel browser we install by default doesn't work on sites that firefox works on. Could we do it in a more prominent perhaps? Note that the about: page, which is the default home page in iceweasel, contains a link to the README.Debian file. Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
Eric Dorland wrote: Well I think Google generally does treat the Iceweasel user agent properly. Not in the case of maps.google.com, where the sidebar cannot be hidden in iceweasel, can in firefox. I'm afraid that documenting it in README.Debian won't help desktop users who just find that this strange iceweasel browser we install by default doesn't work on sites that firefox works on. Could we do it in a more prominent perhaps? FWIW, I got from the README.Debian to #354622, but I was unable to from there figure out how to quickly and easily change the user agent. A more prominent thing might be a hyperlink directly to the relevant about:config setting from the default start page .. or a pre-installed user agent switcher that has firefox in it as an option. I think that something like that would go a certian distance to making it accessible to users, though it would still be a bother. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
Le lundi 09 juin 2008 à 18:59 +0200, Per Olofsson a écrit : Eric Dorland wrote: As to whether to include Iceweasel over epiphany (or whatever) in the gnome task, that's probably the gnome team's call. However, Iceweasel is clearly the more popular one and 3.0 does have better integration with Gnome (at least look at feel wise). FWIW, Iceweasel 3.0 also incorporates some of Epiphany's features, namely bookmark tagging and bookmark typeahead finding from the location bar. And still: * it does not follow the HIG (which is, after theming and icons, the most important thing when it comes to look and feel); * there is no network-manager integration; * there is no avahi integration; * there is no support for notifications; and I probably forget some. There are definitely some nice improvements in iceweasel 3.0 when it comes to GNOME integration (especially the proxy settings, the beginning of GTK+ icon theme support and native widgets), but it still looks like a second-class browser to me in this context. Cheers, -- .''`. : :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code. `. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to `-our own. Resistance is futile. signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
Eric Dorland wrote: So the user agent thing is fairly well documented at http://bugs.debian.org/399633, but basically it's our stand against user-agent insanity. We could of course make it say Firefox easily, but this certainly seems a bit defeatist. s/defeatist/defeated/ I realized this battle was over when discussion on debian-user revieled that google maps behaved differently in firefox than iceweasel, because it used a firefox-UA specific test to enable a feature (closing the sidebar to make the map take up the full screen). If the top website out there gets it wrong, the battle is effectively over; right or wrong no longer really matters (victors write history etc). I think we should almost certainly document the workaround better in the README.Debian. Of course I highly respect Joey's opinion so I'm open to more convincing. I'm afraid that documenting it in README.Debian won't help desktop users who just find that this strange iceweasel browser we install by default doesn't work on sites that firefox works on. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
Eric Dorland wrote: As to whether to include Iceweasel over epiphany (or whatever) in the gnome task, that's probably the gnome team's call. However, Iceweasel is clearly the more popular one and 3.0 does have better integration with Gnome (at least look at feel wise). FWIW, Iceweasel 3.0 also incorporates some of Epiphany's features, namely bookmark tagging and bookmark typeahead finding from the location bar. -- Pelle -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
[+pkg-mozilla-maintainers] * Joey Hess ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Josselin Mouette wrote: Le mardi 03 juin 2008 à 10:24 -0300, Otavio Salvador a écrit : I think providing multiple alternatives for same task confuses the user. Cool, are you finally willing to drop iceweasel from the gnome-desktop task then? I won't try to argue with gnome people about more choices confusing users. You've drunk that cool-aide too. ;-) I'd *love* to not have two browsers in the desktop task. The reasons firefox was originally included were: - Name-brand recognition. Now eliminated by the mozilla project. - Vast number of plugins and other market-share advantages. - Some sites only work with MSIE and firefox. Or that have some features that only work with browsers claiming to be these. (Including google maps.) Horrible but true. This advantage also eliminated from iceweasel to the sad detriment of many of our users. (#401507) - Not wanting users to have to go manually install it, especially as a somewhat scarily large fraction apparently install it by downloading a tarball. On the balance, most of the reasons to install iceweasel by default have withered away. A few still remain, and the user-agent problem is really a bug in iceweasel, that should be RC IMHO[1]. I had been hoping that it would be fixed. If it continues to not be fixed, I'll continue to unhappily lean toward dropping iceweasel from the task. So the user agent thing is fairly well documented at http://bugs.debian.org/399633, but basically it's our stand against user-agent insanity. We could of course make it say Firefox easily, but this certainly seems a bit defeatist. I think we should almost certainly document the workaround better in the README.Debian. Of course I highly respect Joey's opinion so I'm open to more convincing. As to whether to include Iceweasel over epiphany (or whatever) in the gnome task, that's probably the gnome team's call. However, Iceweasel is clearly the more popular one and 3.0 does have better integration with Gnome (at least look at feel wise). -- Eric Dorland [EMAIL PROTECTED] ICQ: #61138586, Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
Le lundi 02 juin 2008 à 14:10 -0400, Joey Hess a écrit : There's a fundamental difference between the gnome package and the gnome-desktop task. The former is the complere gnome desktop environment with all extras, as shipped by gnome, while the latter attempts to be the best gnome-based desktop that Debian can put together and ship on a CD/DVD. The complete GNOME desktop environment as shipped by GNOME (modulo tomboy) is gnome-desktop-environment. In gnome we provide extras that are chosen by Debian to make it the best desktop experience we can. Which is obviously what you should also want with the gnome-desktop task. These two seem unlikely to be identical, as long as there exist packages like openoffice and firefox, that are developed outside of gnome, and that everyone expects to find on their desktop. I disagree with that “everyone”, but this is another story. The default installation should probably be gnome + OOo + X + iceweasel, in this case. Packages installed by the gnome package, not by tasksel: * abiword: adding it would mean installing two word processors, since openoffice is already part of the installation. However abiword is much lighter and much more suitable for beginners Beginners expect to be able to open all the microsoft documents they get and have them work well, and have an uber-bloated word processor that looks similar to the MS tools, which is why everyone uses OOo. It does not prevent us from shipping a better integrated word processor, while setting OOo as the default handler for .doc files (currently it is not, but I can easily change that). Anyway, the gnome package does not pull in abiword AFAICS. It does, through gnome-office. Same goes for dia, gnumeric, inkscape, planner. * gdm-themes: nice to have for customizing one’s desktop, just like gnome-themes-extras. I'm not sure that nice to have is really worth bloating the default install (and installation media) by 4 mb. We ship a pre-themed gdm. (Dropping the 20 mb gnome-themes-extras would also be a sizable win to consider...) Considering the size of the default installation, that’s definitely your call. * tomboy: very nice app, but controversial since it brings the full Mono stack, so we don’t make it part of gnome-desktop-environment. I doubt that the size of its dep chain (~50 mb) makes it worthwhile to add it to our task. Yeah, that’s what I feared. I hope someone rewrites it in Vala some day… * totem-plugins: totem will lack functionality without it. totem-plugins is a dependency of totem, so it already installed by default. (g-d-e still depends on totem despite it being a dummy package, and totem still depends on totem-plugins while totem-gstreamer does not.. will this be cleaned up?) Ah, indeed that’s stupid. ISTR that upstream told us totem-plugins includes core functionality, so we should probably move it to g-d-e directly. * gparted: not sure it is that useful, but we could add it to gnome. I'm on the fence about this one myself. Gustavo promoted adding it. Actually, it sounds like something more useful for the installer itself than for normal desktop operation. * update-notifier: not very well maintained, but definitely useful. Maybe as a recommend? It's pretty crucial to have this well-maintained IMHO. Many users will only find out about security fixes via this. Unfortunately there are already much more crucial packages that are not well-maintained. * gdebi: we should definitely add it to gnome. Along similar lines, I've been considering adding aptlinex or something similar to the task. The UI is not a really great fit though. And apturl is not packaged.. I’m not sure it is that useful. We already have nice integrated UIs, I’m not sure we need web crap just for the coolness of web 4.0. * transmission-gtk: I don’t know that application, but it sounds like a useful addition to gnome. It's the best integrated bittorrent application I've seen for gnome so far, and relatively popular. OK, will add it. * liferea: definitely a good addition to gnome. * pidgin: we should add this one, or maybe rather telepathy, to gnome. My impression is that pidgin has the mind share at the moment. I've never seen a clear explaination/example of telepaty's capabilities. Is it ready? There is controversy as to whether integrate it to GNOME mainstream, but it is not about the capabilities. I’m no IM user myself, so I can’t tell whether it is good enough. * evolution-plugins: sounds like something we forgot to add on our side. Possibly. Gustavo recommended adding that to the task. It is already here through recommends, but we need to make it more explicit. * tsclient: we now install vinagre which is part of the GNOME release, which is nicer but lacks
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
Le mardi 03 juin 2008 à 12:05 +0200, Frans Pop a écrit : Here's some data about the desktop task (installed size using network mirror): Sarge: 1392 MB (included GNOME _and_ KDE) Etch: 1360 MB (GNOME only) Lenny: 1857 MB (GNOME only) As a side note, it would be interesting to know how much of the increase since etch is caused by GNOME and how much is caused by OOo. -- .''`. : :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code. `. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to `-our own. Resistance is futile. signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
On Tuesday 03 June 2008, Josselin Mouette wrote: It does not prevent us from shipping a better integrated word processor, [...] I'm afraid it does because adding a second word processor would move e.g. some localization tasks off the first CD images, which is not an acceptable trade-off. Here's some data about the desktop task (installed size using network mirror): Sarge: 1392 MB (included GNOME _and_ KDE) Etch: 1360 MB (GNOME only) Lenny: 1857 MB (GNOME only) As you can see, KDE was completely pushed out of default installs by the increased size of a GNOME install. To solve that we created the separate KDE (and Xfce) CD images. As you can also see, the GNOME install has grown by 35% from Etch to Lenny, thus pushing other important software (like localization tasks) off the lower CDs. The ever increasing size of the default desktop install also makes testing such installs increasingly annoying to do. Cheers, FJP signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
On Tuesday 03 June 2008, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le mardi 03 juin 2008 à 12:05 +0200, Frans Pop a écrit : Here's some data about the desktop task (installed size using network mirror): Sarge: 1392 MB (included GNOME _and_ KDE) Etch: 1360 MB (GNOME only) Lenny: 1857 MB (GNOME only) As a side note, it would be interesting to know how much of the increase since etch is caused by GNOME and how much is caused by OOo. I don't have any data on that split, but some space could definitely be saved there by defining OOo as included in tasks so that it does not require Java. See #484287 (which I just filed). signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
Le mardi 03 juin 2008 à 10:24 -0300, Otavio Salvador a écrit : It does not prevent us from shipping a better integrated word processor, while setting OOo as the default handler for .doc files (currently it is not, but I can easily change that). I think providing multiple alternatives for same task confuses the user. Cool, are you finally willing to drop iceweasel from the gnome-desktop task then? -- .''`. : :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code. `. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to `-our own. Resistance is futile. signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
Josselin Mouette [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Beginners expect to be able to open all the microsoft documents they get and have them work well, and have an uber-bloated word processor that looks similar to the MS tools, which is why everyone uses OOo. It does not prevent us from shipping a better integrated word processor, while setting OOo as the default handler for .doc files (currently it is not, but I can easily change that). I think providing multiple alternatives for same task confuses the user. -- O T A V I OS A L V A D O R - E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] UIN: 5906116 GNU/Linux User: 239058 GPG ID: 49A5F855 Home Page: http://otavio.ossystems.com.br - Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
Le mardi 03 juin 2008 à 12:04 -0300, Otavio Salvador a écrit : Cool, are you finally willing to drop iceweasel from the gnome-desktop task then? I'd say to drop epiphany. Iceweasel/Firefox are the expected ones. Firefox is ages behind Epiphany when it comes to desktop integration. Just because it’s well-known does not mean it is better. -- .''`. : :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code. `. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to `-our own. Resistance is futile. signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
Josselin Mouette [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Le mardi 03 juin 2008 à 10:24 -0300, Otavio Salvador a écrit : It does not prevent us from shipping a better integrated word processor, while setting OOo as the default handler for .doc files (currently it is not, but I can easily change that). I think providing multiple alternatives for same task confuses the user. Cool, are you finally willing to drop iceweasel from the gnome-desktop task then? I'd say to drop epiphany. Iceweasel/Firefox are the expected ones. -- O T A V I OS A L V A D O R - E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] UIN: 5906116 GNU/Linux User: 239058 GPG ID: 49A5F855 Home Page: http://otavio.ossystems.com.br - Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
Emilio Pozuelo Monfort wrote: Or add brasero and drop serpentine. brasero is really nice and intuitive IMHO. I realize that every gnome user has a different opinion about which CD burner to use, but my understanding, which is borne out by popcon, is that brasero is only relatively close to the top of the pack because it was the default in sarge. Tasksel used to use brasero, before it changed to gnomebaker. Excluding default installations, serpentine has gained a larger number of users in tasksel than any past gnome CD burning package. (The complete sad/funny history so far: bonfire - brasero - gnomebaker - serpentine.) -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
Josselin Mouette [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Le mardi 03 juin 2008 à 12:04 -0300, Otavio Salvador a écrit : Cool, are you finally willing to drop iceweasel from the gnome-desktop task then? I'd say to drop epiphany. Iceweasel/Firefox are the expected ones. Firefox is ages behind Epiphany when it comes to desktop integration. Just because it’s well-known does not mean it is better. This is too personal to be discussed. I agree that Epiphany is way more integrated however Debian default Desktop installations should give what user expects to have, IMO this is not Epiphany and Abiword (just to cite two examples). Please bear on mind that I'm a user of Abiword and I like. -- O T A V I OS A L V A D O R - E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] UIN: 5906116 GNU/Linux User: 239058 GPG ID: 49A5F855 Home Page: http://otavio.ossystems.com.br - Microsoft sells you Windows ... Linux gives you the whole house. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
Josselin Mouette wrote: The complete GNOME desktop environment as shipped by GNOME (modulo tomboy) is gnome-desktop-environment. In gnome we provide extras that are chosen by Debian to make it the best desktop experience we can. Which is obviously what you should also want with the gnome-desktop task. Thanks for the correction. I'd be open to using the package as the main/sole contents of the task then, provided we can agree on its contents, and provided recommends don't cause trouble. (Tasksel ignores recommends, but you might have good reasons to only want to make certian packages recommends.) Beginners expect to be able to open all the microsoft documents they get and have them work well, and have an uber-bloated word processor that looks similar to the MS tools, which is why everyone uses OOo. It does not prevent us from shipping a better integrated word processor, while setting OOo as the default handler for .doc files (currently it is not, but I can easily change that). I prefer not to have multiple choices of programs in a task though, unless there's a damn good reason for doing it. Both bloat and user confusion.. Anyway, the gnome package does not pull in abiword AFAICS. It does, through gnome-office. Same goes for dia, gnumeric, inkscape, planner. Ok, let me re-address those then: * dia: it's not a very good application, but it doesn't have any suitable replacement. I think we should ship it by default, but not that strongly. I think I'd rather use inkscape than struggle with dia again, even if I specifically needed to do UML stuff. But I don't feel it's something typical desktop users are going to want at all. * gnumeric: same problem as abiword, but the difference is that gnumeric is superior to OOo calc in many ways. I feel it should be the default for GNOME, even if it means not installing OOo calc. I don't have experience with gnumeric to say if it's better, but doesn't OOo calc have some advantages in being integrated with a word processor? * planner: not very well maintained upstream, but it is a useful application without many good replacements. I don't feel strongly about it, but it is small. 6 mb small.. Planner does not seem to be used by a lot of people. * gdm-themes: nice to have for customizing one’s desktop, just like gnome-themes-extras. I'm not sure that nice to have is really worth bloating the default install (and installation media) by 4 mb. We ship a pre-themed gdm. (Dropping the 20 mb gnome-themes-extras would also be a sizable win to consider...) Considering the size of the default installation, that’s definitely your call. Do you think that a lot of users would miss it? * gparted: not sure it is that useful, but we could add it to gnome. I'm on the fence about this one myself. Gustavo promoted adding it. Actually, it sounds like something more useful for the installer itself than for normal desktop operation. I think the idea was that some people will install using the default partition sizes, and need to change that later, and it would be good to have a user-friendly way for them to do so. Popcon says that 5000 out of 4 installations actually use it, which is higher than I would have expected. Especially since you'd think most people would only use it once or twice. * gdebi: we should definitely add it to gnome. Along similar lines, I've been considering adding aptlinex or something similar to the task. The UI is not a really great fit though. And apturl is not packaged.. I’m not sure it is that useful. We already have nice integrated UIs, I’m not sure we need web crap just for the coolness of web 4.0. Potential benefits include being able to go to a games team page with screenshots of games, and click on them to install. (I'm also looking at goplay of course..) -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
Josselin Mouette wrote: Le mardi 03 juin 2008 à 10:24 -0300, Otavio Salvador a écrit : I think providing multiple alternatives for same task confuses the user. Cool, are you finally willing to drop iceweasel from the gnome-desktop task then? I won't try to argue with gnome people about more choices confusing users. You've drunk that cool-aide too. ;-) I'd *love* to not have two browsers in the desktop task. The reasons firefox was originally included were: - Name-brand recognition. Now eliminated by the mozilla project. - Vast number of plugins and other market-share advantages. - Some sites only work with MSIE and firefox. Or that have some features that only work with browsers claiming to be these. (Including google maps.) Horrible but true. This advantage also eliminated from iceweasel to the sad detriment of many of our users. (#401507) - Not wanting users to have to go manually install it, especially as a somewhat scarily large fraction apparently install it by downloading a tarball. On the balance, most of the reasons to install iceweasel by default have withered away. A few still remain, and the user-agent problem is really a bug in iceweasel, that should be RC IMHO[1]. I had been hoping that it would be fixed. If it continues to not be fixed, I'll continue to unhappily lean toward dropping iceweasel from the task. -- see shy jo [1] Maybe I'm just bitter that I had to fuck around with user agent switcher plugins to use firefox to do my taxes this year? I did let turbotax know that I won't be their customer next year if they don't treat epiphany and other gecko-based browsers equivilantly. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
Le mardi 03 juin 2008 à 13:27 -0400, Joey Hess a écrit : It does not prevent us from shipping a better integrated word processor, while setting OOo as the default handler for .doc files (currently it is not, but I can easily change that). I prefer not to have multiple choices of programs in a task though, unless there's a damn good reason for doing it. Both bloat and user confusion.. I have both OOo and abiword installed on all my machines, because they cover different needs. One is to read big MS Word files, the other is to write letters. Anyway, what I can propose you is to make gnome-office only a Recommends: of gnome. I still find it is a shame not to ship abiword and gnumeric by default, but size considerations do matter. * dia: it's not a very good application, but it doesn't have any suitable replacement. I think we should ship it by default, but not that strongly. I think I'd rather use inkscape than struggle with dia again, even if I specifically needed to do UML stuff. But I don't feel it's something typical desktop users are going to want at all. Agreed. I’m moving it to suggests. * gnumeric: same problem as abiword, but the difference is that gnumeric is superior to OOo calc in many ways. I feel it should be the default for GNOME, even if it means not installing OOo calc. I don't have experience with gnumeric to say if it's better, but doesn't OOo calc have some advantages in being integrated with a word processor? Of course it has, but I don’t know many people who actually use this feature. Unfortunately, a full gnumeric installation is bigger than OOo calc alone if you already have the rest of OOo installed, so the size argument is again against gnome office. * planner: not very well maintained upstream, but it is a useful application without many good replacements. I don't feel strongly about it, but it is small. 6 mb small.. Planner does not seem to be used by a lot of people. Agreed, I moved it to Recommends. * gdm-themes: nice to have for customizing one’s desktop, just like gnome-themes-extras. I'm not sure that nice to have is really worth bloating the default install (and installation media) by 4 mb. We ship a pre-themed gdm. (Dropping the 20 mb gnome-themes-extras would also be a sizable win to consider...) Considering the size of the default installation, that’s definitely your call. Do you think that a lot of users would miss it? Unlike the GDM themes, I know many people who use them. The Gorilla and Nuvola themes are really well designed and popular. * gparted: not sure it is that useful, but we could add it to gnome. I'm on the fence about this one myself. Gustavo promoted adding it. Actually, it sounds like something more useful for the installer itself than for normal desktop operation. I think the idea was that some people will install using the default partition sizes, and need to change that later, and it would be good to have a user-friendly way for them to do so. Popcon says that 5000 out of 4 installations actually use it, which is higher than I would have expected. Especially since you'd think most people would only use it once or twice. This number is indeed surprising. At least, I’ve made it a Recommends. I’m not sure it is that useful. We already have nice integrated UIs, I’m not sure we need web crap just for the coolness of web 4.0. Potential benefits include being able to go to a games team page with screenshots of games, and click on them to install. (I'm also looking at goplay of course..) The good solution to me would be to find a way to add screenshot browsing support to synaptic. Following your other comments, I’ve also changed the following: * fixed the totem mess, * demoted gnome-games-extra-data to a recommends, * demoted tomboy to a recommends, * added update-notifier as a recommends, * added gdebi and gnome-app-install, * added transmission-gtk as a depends, * added empathy (I mistyped, telepathy is the framework and empathy the client) as a recommends (if you want to add this one, don’t forget its recommends as well), * added bluez-gnome and gnome-vfs-obexftp, * added network-manager-gnome as a recommends, * added xsane to gnome-office, * added arj and p7zip. The current version can be found there: http://svn.debian.org/wsvn/pkg-gnome/desktop/unstable/meta-gnome2/debian/control.in?op=filerev=0sc=0 -- .''`. : :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code. `. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to `-our own. Resistance is futile. signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
Package: tasksel Version: 2.74.2 Severity: wishlist Hi, I think it is time to wonder what should go in the default GNOME installation for the lenny release. Currently, the gnome-desktop task consists of the gnome-desktop-environment metapackage (official GNOME release) plus a number of extras. However we already provide the gnome metapackage which consists of g-d-e plus a number of extras to make a full-fledged desktop. I think that we should converge on the same set of packages, so that the gnome-desktop task could simply install gnome. This would avoid a lot of unneeded synchronisation work, while the GNOME team knows what packages are deprecated and which ones are introduced. Here are the current differences. Packages installed by the gnome package, not by tasksel: * abiword: adding it would mean installing two word processors, since openoffice is already part of the installation. However abiword is much lighter and much more suitable for beginners than OOo is, hence they cover different user needs, which is why I end up installing both on my machines. However I’m not against removing it from the gnome dependencies, or at least moving it to recommends. * dia: it’s not a very good application, but it doesn’t have any suitable replacement. I think we should ship it by default, but not that strongly. * gnumeric: same problem as abiword, but the difference is that gnumeric is superior to OOo calc in many ways. I feel it should be the default for GNOME, even if it means not installing OOo calc. * inkscape: this one is a killer application. Let’s ship it by default. Oh, and we don’t need OOo draw thanks to it :) * planner: not very well maintained upstream, but it is a useful application without many good replacements. I don’t feel strongly about it, but it is small. * gdm-themes: nice to have for customizing one’s desktop, just like gnome-themes-extras. * gnome-games: was removed from g-d-e, but we definitely want it. * gnome-games-extra-data: nice themes to have, especially the vector card themes. * libpam-gnome-keyring: enhances GNOME keyring functionality a lot, we should have it. * gstreamer0.10-plugins-ugly: adds support for some video formats that gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg does not understand. We should have it. * system-config-printer: this application supersedes gnome-cups-manager and foomatic-gui. * tomboy: very nice app, but controversial since it brings the full Mono stack, so we don’t make it part of gnome-desktop-environment. * totem-plugins: totem will lack functionality without it. * serpentine: we set it as the default application to burn audio CDs. Packages installed by tasksel, not by the gnome package: * gnome-cups-manager, foomatic-gui: superseded by system-config-printer. * gparted: not sure it is that useful, but we could add it to gnome. * update-notifier: not very well maintained, but definitely useful. Maybe as a recommend? * gnome-app-install: already here through recommends, but we can make it more explicit. * gdebi: we should definitely add it to gnome. * transmission-gtk: I don’t know that application, but it sounds like a useful addition to gnome. * liferea: definitely a good addition to gnome. * pidgin: we should add this one, or maybe rather telepathy, to gnome. * openoffice.org-gnome, openoffice.org-evolution: it sounds like something that should remain as only installed by tasksel. * evolution-plugins: sounds like something we forgot to add on our side. * tsclient: we now install vinagre which is part of the GNOME release, which is nicer but lacks RDP support. I don’t know what’s best for this one. * iceweasel-gnome-support: should remain as only installed by tasksel. * gnomebaker: its functionality is mostly covered by having both nautilus-cd-burner and serpentine. * network-manager-gnome: I think we should at least recommend this one. * bluez-gnome: same as NM. * xsane: probably something that should be added to gnome-office. * arj, p7zip: we can probably add them (for the same reason they are part of the task). Starting from this list, I’d like your comments so that I can upload a new meta-gnome2, after which, if you like the idea, tasksel could be made to install gnome + a handful of packages, instead of the current very long list. Cheers, -- .''`. : :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code. `. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to `-our own. Resistance is futile. signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
Josselin Mouette wrote: Package: tasksel Version: 2.74.2 Severity: wishlist Hi, I think it is time to wonder what should go in the default GNOME installation for the lenny release. Currently, the gnome-desktop task consists of the gnome-desktop-environment metapackage (official GNOME release) plus a number of extras. However we already provide the gnome metapackage which consists of g-d-e plus a number of extras to make a full-fledged desktop. I think that we should converge on the same set of packages, so that the gnome-desktop task could simply install gnome. This would avoid a lot of unneeded synchronisation work, while the GNOME team knows what packages are deprecated and which ones are introduced. There's a fundamental difference between the gnome package and the gnome-desktop task. The former is the complere gnome desktop environment with all extras, as shipped by gnome, while the latter attempts to be the best gnome-based desktop that Debian can put together and ship on a CD/DVD. These two seem unlikely to be identical, as long as there exist packages like openoffice and firefox, that are developed outside of gnome, and that everyone expects to find on their desktop. I'd like to reduce the divergence as much as possible, of course. And perhaps I misunderstand what the gnome package is for.. Here are the current differences. Packages installed by the gnome package, not by tasksel: * abiword: adding it would mean installing two word processors, since openoffice is already part of the installation. However abiword is much lighter and much more suitable for beginners Beginners expect to be able to open all the microsoft documents they get and have them work well, and have an uber-bloated word processor that looks similar to the MS tools, which is why everyone uses OOo. Anyway, the gnome package does not pull in abiword AFAICS. * dia: it’s not a very good application, but it doesn’t have any suitable replacement. I think we should ship it by default, but not that strongly. Again, I cannot find this in the gnome package or any obvious dependency chain from it. * gnumeric: same problem as abiword, but the difference is that gnumeric is superior to OOo calc in many ways. I feel it should be the default for GNOME, even if it means not installing OOo calc. Nor this.. * inkscape: this one is a killer application. Let’s ship it by default. Oh, and we don’t need OOo draw thanks to it :) Nor this.. (I have been thinking about adding inkscape, as it's pretty kick-ass.) * planner: not very well maintained upstream, but it is a useful application without many good replacements. I don’t feel strongly about it, but it is small. Nor this.. * gdm-themes: nice to have for customizing one’s desktop, just like gnome-themes-extras. I'm not sure that nice to have is really worth bloating the default install (and installation media) by 4 mb. We ship a pre-themed gdm. (Dropping the 20 mb gnome-themes-extras would also be a sizable win to consider...) * gnome-games: was removed from g-d-e, but we definitely want it. Agreed, added. * gnome-games-extra-data: nice themes to have, especially the vector card themes. But at 7 mb more, maybe not nice enough.. The default card theme is bonded, a vector theme anyway, isn't it? * libpam-gnome-keyring: enhances GNOME keyring functionality a lot, we should have it. Sounds good, added. * gstreamer0.10-plugins-ugly: adds support for some video formats that gstreamer0.10-ffmpeg does not understand. We should have it. This was removed via bug #388247 back when totem-xine was the default, and didn't get put back when it changed again. Added. * system-config-printer: this application supersedes gnome-cups-manager and foomatic-gui. Already done. * tomboy: very nice app, but controversial since it brings the full Mono stack, so we don’t make it part of gnome-desktop-environment. I doubt that the size of its dep chain (~50 mb) makes it worthwhile to add it to our task. * totem-plugins: totem will lack functionality without it. totem-plugins is a dependency of totem, so it already installed by default. (g-d-e still depends on totem despite it being a dummy package, and totem still depends on totem-plugins while totem-gstreamer does not.. will this be cleaned up?) * serpentine: we set it as the default application to burn audio CDs. [in gnome-desktop task] * gnomebaker: its functionality is mostly covered by having both nautilus-cd-burner and serpentine. Ok, if this combo is best now, I'm happy to follow your lead and drop gnomebaker and add serpentine. Packages installed by tasksel, not by the gnome package: * gnome-cups-manager, foomatic-gui:
Bug#484121: tasksel: let's sync on the GNOME task
Joey Hess wrote: Josselin Mouette wrote: * serpentine: we set it as the default application to burn audio CDs. [in gnome-desktop task] * gnomebaker: its functionality is mostly covered by having both nautilus-cd-burner and serpentine. Ok, if this combo is best now, I'm happy to follow your lead and drop gnomebaker and add serpentine. Or add brasero and drop serpentine. brasero is really nice and intuitive IMHO. Cheers, Emilio signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
