Bug#575760: Bug#575761: Bug#575760: x86 architecture names are confusing
Hi! Short input: * Osamu Aoki os...@debian.org [2011-01-04 14:21:14 CET]: This needs to be changed and reordered to: # order are from http://popcon.debian.org/ # Thus vender neutral :-) %arches = ( i386= '32-bit PC (i386)', amd64 = '64-bit PC (amd64)', armel = 'EABI ARM (armel)', powerpc = 'PowerPC (powerpc)', sparc = 'SPARC (sparc)', # arm = 'ARM (arm)', ia64= 'Intel IA-64 (ia64)', hppa= 'HP PA-RISC (hppa)', # alpha = 'Alpha (alpha)', mipsel = 'MIPS (little endian) (mipsel)', s390= 'IBM S/390 (s390)', mips= 'MIPS (big endian) (mipsel)', ); This order is the current popcon data order: http://popcon.debian.org/ So we will not ask user to look through long list. Erm, the ordering of the hash doesn't gain you anything. Actually hashes in perl are unsorted by definition, it's explicitly undefined in which order the keys will be returned. If you want to fix the sorting that will have to be at the point where it's used, not in the hash definition. Thanks, Rhonda -- dholbach Last day of https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDeveloperWeek starting in 34 minutes in #ubuntu-classroom on irc.feenode.net * ScottK hands dholbach an r. Rhonda Are they fundraising again? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#575760: Bug#575761: Bug#575760: x86 architecture names are confusing
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 Le 08/01/2011 06:23, Gerfried Fuchs a écrit : Hi! Hi, * Osamu Aoki os...@debian.org [2011-01-04 14:21:14 CET]: This needs to be changed and reordered to: [...] This order is the current popcon data order: http://popcon.debian.org/ So we will not ask user to look through long list. Erm, the ordering of the hash doesn't gain you anything. Actually hashes in perl are unsorted by definition, it's explicitly undefined in which order the keys will be returned. If you want to fix the sorting that will have to be at the point where it's used, not in the hash definition. I just took care of this part: the hash is now shared among releases (and there name are now translatable) in english/releases/arches.data and the choice of valid architectures and ordering is made via a table in english/releases/releasename;/release.data (I ordered the Squeeze ones using popcorn data, and kept the alphabetic order of architectures codename for others, it may worth to take care of ordering at least Lenny's architectures using popcorn if nobody objects). Regards David -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJNKORoAAoJELgqIXr9/gnyBtUP/R/txHieBH5KrGRlEs9kDiTw h2l8YpmCzytHy9QiDRtbAMflk2Dqc1dlMQR1NrDkQWWj9FyPfMFREmhoYU9hIueg RwWyKLj1bPSxsipJNXvcxd6FXx3aybl1FCS6mPXTUeGxEJEgSxjxva6K69eebPFq LDEBtSHsY0ks+MghVxDN1/2vr916iz7h3FU8B3qaG2N7TTvmwcICZVovy5XgNf3v T688oTU6xKq3pCmAmVKY8OMi16WL6/Neue0C9GwYketUrOT4joMEbFCcHfsPcV9+ Jf5/G2nMn0VN43c4FbUlHJXh1qgcq9oZFkGIB/0Fv8y1gMeOBfShInURaA2MNDsG xJLc5wndA1wTXw++XL8brzWz6SVDA5PuSkdD2NtR4pAX5xrvyOOlpor+u7/zG9bl Ui3DcODsYyApX8ibqlewarcVweBZUmLsU80iDn9mGVQjt0guTC3h5l4aUUR7asS7 +8IdYvGFb/JXn01Qd4GNFdSRX0kDb3XvwhcF83Yrjh2JNRvujUuTiLnC6hsMyPK5 stXB3ZV2QBek6HdeVimDCk92LNo50jFDTFWBZG6fLewBY7zxwvQUTdhM3lLmDgDx x5NJFisLmLfYw5XLVvHSXwPnUNjTFImz/vPm1RMwxn1zruCLkRt4FfHSCRNrwACM CmGGK7x+/gkjVJlREW/3 =nK1h -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#575760: Bug#575761: Bug#575760: x86 architecture names are confusing
On Wed, Jan 05, 2011 at 12:28:20AM +0200, Andrei Popescu wrote: ... This order is the current popcon data order: http://popcon.debian.org/ So we will not ask user to look through long list. Order is not important since it get reordered. I hope this fixes non-optimal order and word issue on Debian web page technically. But we first agree on what wording are we using. I like nonpedantic 32-bit PC/64-bit PC. EABI ARM may be better to use ARM (armel) since we are not shipping old arm any more. May I also suggest Intel IA-64 Itanium (ia64), to try to prevent users from confusing ia64 with amd64. This is good idea, On Intel site, Intel Itanium is used together and IA-64 follows it. So I chose Intel Itanium IA-64. Maybe, Release note may need some change though. I realized Release note only used arch name in () for 32-bit PC and 64-bit PC, I only added there. I just commited changes to webwml. Regards, Osamu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#575760: Bug#575761: Bug#575760: x86 architecture names are confusing
On Thu, Jan 6, 2011 at 00:00:07 +0900, Osamu Aoki wrote: I just commited changes to webwml. And I just changed the release notes for squeeze. Thanks. Cheers, Julien signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#575760: Bug#575761: Bug#575760: x86 architecture names are confusing
Hi, On Sun, Jan 02, 2011 at 02:46:58PM +0100, Julien Cristau wrote: On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 21:27:55 +0200, Simon Paillard wrote: Hi, [CC the other Bug# against release-notes] On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 02:52:55AM +0100, Ben Hutchings wrote: Package: www.debian.org Severity: normal Various pages use the long architecture names 'AMD64' and 'Intel x86' for our architectures 'amd64' and 'i386'. The name 'AMD64' sometimes confuses users with Intel x86-64 chips, who instead download the installer or CD images for ia64. This is a waste of time and bandwidth for all concerned. The name 'Intel x86' is also inaccurate in that the i386 architecture runs on 32-bit x86 processors from many vendors. I recommend the names '32-bit PC' and '64-bit PC' - they are not pedantically correct, but people should understand what they mean. Or: 32-bit PC (i386) | 64-bit PC (amd64) (in order to keep in mind the official name in the archive). I fully agree. We received many reports/doubts of users on debian-www. What's the status here? Can we make the change in the website and the squeeze release notes now? It seems everyone agrees the current names are confusing and Ben's suggestions would be an improvement. Actions needed to fix this on we page is to edit following file (I am not webwml expert) CVS/debian/webwml/english/releases/squeeze/release.data. It has: %arches = ( i386= 'Intel x86', sparc = 'SPARC', # alpha = 'Alpha', powerpc = 'PowerPC', amd64 = 'AMD64', # arm = 'ARM', armel = 'EABI ARM', hppa= 'HP PA-RISC', ia64= 'Intel IA-64', mips= 'MIPS (big endian)', mipsel = 'MIPS (little endian)', s390= 'IBM S/390', ); This needs to be changed and reordered to: # order are from http://popcon.debian.org/ # Thus vender neutral :-) %arches = ( i386= '32-bit PC (i386)', amd64 = '64-bit PC (amd64)', armel = 'EABI ARM (armel)', powerpc = 'PowerPC (powerpc)', sparc = 'SPARC (sparc)', # arm = 'ARM (arm)', ia64= 'Intel IA-64 (ia64)', hppa= 'HP PA-RISC (hppa)', # alpha = 'Alpha (alpha)', mipsel = 'MIPS (little endian) (mipsel)', s390= 'IBM S/390 (s390)', mips= 'MIPS (big endian) (mipsel)', ); This order is the current popcon data order: http://popcon.debian.org/ So we will not ask user to look through long list. I hope this fixes non-optimal order and word issue on Debian web page technically. But we first agree on what wording are we using. I like nonpedantic 32-bit PC/64-bit PC. EABI ARM may be better to use ARM (armel) since we are not shipping old arm any more. Osamu Osamu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#575760: Bug#575761: Bug#575760: x86 architecture names are confusing
On Ma, 04 ian 11, 22:21:14, Osamu Aoki wrote: This needs to be changed and reordered to: # order are from http://popcon.debian.org/ # Thus vender neutral :-) %arches = ( i386= '32-bit PC (i386)', amd64 = '64-bit PC (amd64)', armel = 'EABI ARM (armel)', powerpc = 'PowerPC (powerpc)', sparc = 'SPARC (sparc)', # arm = 'ARM (arm)', ia64= 'Intel IA-64 (ia64)', hppa= 'HP PA-RISC (hppa)', # alpha = 'Alpha (alpha)', mipsel = 'MIPS (little endian) (mipsel)', s390= 'IBM S/390 (s390)', mips= 'MIPS (big endian) (mipsel)', ); This order is the current popcon data order: http://popcon.debian.org/ So we will not ask user to look through long list. I hope this fixes non-optimal order and word issue on Debian web page technically. But we first agree on what wording are we using. I like nonpedantic 32-bit PC/64-bit PC. EABI ARM may be better to use ARM (armel) since we are not shipping old arm any more. May I also suggest Intel IA-64 Itanium (ia64), to try to prevent users from confusing ia64 with amd64. Regards, Andrei -- Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#575760: x86 architecture names are confusing
On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 21:27:55 +0200, Simon Paillard wrote: Hi, [CC the other Bug# against release-notes] On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 02:52:55AM +0100, Ben Hutchings wrote: Package: www.debian.org Severity: normal Various pages use the long architecture names 'AMD64' and 'Intel x86' for our architectures 'amd64' and 'i386'. The name 'AMD64' sometimes confuses users with Intel x86-64 chips, who instead download the installer or CD images for ia64. This is a waste of time and bandwidth for all concerned. The name 'Intel x86' is also inaccurate in that the i386 architecture runs on 32-bit x86 processors from many vendors. I recommend the names '32-bit PC' and '64-bit PC' - they are not pedantically correct, but people should understand what they mean. Or: 32-bit PC (i386) | 64-bit PC (amd64) (in order to keep in mind the official name in the archive). I fully agree. We received many reports/doubts of users on debian-www. What's the status here? Can we make the change in the website and the squeeze release notes now? It seems everyone agrees the current names are confusing and Ben's suggestions would be an improvement. Cheers, Julien signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#575760: x86 architecture names are confusing
On Mon, 2010-03-29 at 02:52 +0100, Ben Hutchings wrote: Package: www.debian.org Severity: normal Various pages use the long architecture names 'AMD64' and 'Intel x86' for our architectures 'amd64' and 'i386'. The name 'AMD64' sometimes confuses users with Intel x86-64 chips, who instead download the installer or CD images for ia64. This is a waste of time and bandwidth for all concerned. The name 'Intel x86' is also inaccurate in that the i386 architecture runs on 32-bit x86 processors from many vendors. I recommend the names '32-bit PC' and '64-bit PC' - they are not pedantically correct, but people should understand what they mean. Whatever you do, please avoid any vendor-specific names (including 'IA32' which is almost unknown outside of Intel manuals). FYI, I did a very quick survey... Ubuntu use: PC (Intel x86) // 64-bit PC (AMD64) Opensuse use: 32bit PC // 64bit PC Fedora use: i386 // x86-64 FreeBSD : i386 // amd64 NetBSD : i386 // amd64 The statistics from the French mirror suggests Ben is right: ftp://ftp.free.fr/stats/debiancd.monthly.201002.txt |___ Downloads per Arch ___| |__i386__|_amd64__|__ia64__| DVD | 583 | 211 | 43 | CD | 517 | 193 | 34 | When popcon says i386 = 64800 ; amd64 = 23700 ; ia64 = 80 Either lots of ia64 users don't enable popcon, or they get ia64 by mistake. My 2¢ Franklin -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#575761: Bug#575760: x86 architecture names are confusing
Hi, [CC the other Bug# against release-notes] On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 02:52:55AM +0100, Ben Hutchings wrote: Package: www.debian.org Severity: normal Various pages use the long architecture names 'AMD64' and 'Intel x86' for our architectures 'amd64' and 'i386'. The name 'AMD64' sometimes confuses users with Intel x86-64 chips, who instead download the installer or CD images for ia64. This is a waste of time and bandwidth for all concerned. The name 'Intel x86' is also inaccurate in that the i386 architecture runs on 32-bit x86 processors from many vendors. I recommend the names '32-bit PC' and '64-bit PC' - they are not pedantically correct, but people should understand what they mean. Or: 32-bit PC (i386) | 64-bit PC (amd64) (in order to keep in mind the official name in the archive). I fully agree. We received many reports/doubts of users on debian-www. For the record, the subject has been discussed in November: http://lists.debian.org/debian-www/2009/11/threads.html#5 FJP position: http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2009/11/msg00515.html The point of FJP is however to keep consistency between displayed names and architecture name. It may be relevant to change amd64 to something else, but may need much larger changes in Debian.. IMO, it's still better to minimize errors during the first step in getting to Debian, at the cost of the users doubts when getting some_package_amd64.deb. Whatever you do, please avoid any vendor-specific names (including 'IA32' which is almost unknown outside of Intel manuals). At least the following pages use these names: http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/ http://www.debian.org/ports/ http://www.debian.org/mirror/submit http://www.debian.org/CD/vendors/adding-form Most other pages using these names appear to be part of the installation manual or release notes, which can be dealt with separately. -- Simon Paillard -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#575761: Bug#575760: x86 architecture names are confusing
On Mon, 2010-03-29 at 21:27 +0200, Simon Paillard wrote: Hi, [CC the other Bug# against release-notes] On Mon, Mar 29, 2010 at 02:52:55AM +0100, Ben Hutchings wrote: Package: www.debian.org Severity: normal Various pages use the long architecture names 'AMD64' and 'Intel x86' for our architectures 'amd64' and 'i386'. The name 'AMD64' sometimes confuses users with Intel x86-64 chips, who instead download the installer or CD images for ia64. This is a waste of time and bandwidth for all concerned. The name 'Intel x86' is also inaccurate in that the i386 architecture runs on 32-bit x86 processors from many vendors. I recommend the names '32-bit PC' and '64-bit PC' - they are not pedantically correct, but people should understand what they mean. Or: 32-bit PC (i386) | 64-bit PC (amd64) (in order to keep in mind the official name in the archive). I fully agree. We received many reports/doubts of users on debian-www. For the record, the subject has been discussed in November: http://lists.debian.org/debian-www/2009/11/threads.html#5 FJP position: http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2009/11/msg00515.html The point of FJP is however to keep consistency between displayed names and architecture name. His major point seems to be that the current layout sucks, which I fully agree with. I would suggest using lists or tables with one line per architecture, sorted in reverse order of popularity (according to popcon). It may be relevant to change amd64 to something else, but may need much larger changes in Debian.. [...] The official short names really cannot be changed. Ben. -- Ben Hutchings Once a job is fouled up, anything done to improve it makes it worse. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Bug#575760: x86 architecture names are confusing
Package: www.debian.org Severity: normal Various pages use the long architecture names 'AMD64' and 'Intel x86' for our architectures 'amd64' and 'i386'. The name 'AMD64' sometimes confuses users with Intel x86-64 chips, who instead download the installer or CD images for ia64. This is a waste of time and bandwidth for all concerned. The name 'Intel x86' is also inaccurate in that the i386 architecture runs on 32-bit x86 processors from many vendors. I recommend the names '32-bit PC' and '64-bit PC' - they are not pedantically correct, but people should understand what they mean. Whatever you do, please avoid any vendor-specific names (including 'IA32' which is almost unknown outside of Intel manuals). At least the following pages use these names: http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/ http://www.debian.org/ports/ http://www.debian.org/mirror/submit http://www.debian.org/CD/vendors/adding-form Most other pages using these names appear to be part of the installation manual or release notes, which can be dealt with separately. Ben. -- System Information: Debian Release: squeeze/sid APT prefers proposed-updates APT policy: (500, 'proposed-updates'), (500, 'unstable'), (500, 'stable'), (1, 'experimental') Architecture: i386 (x86_64) Kernel: Linux 2.6.32-3-amd64 (SMP w/2 CPU cores) Locale: LANG=en_GB.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=en_GB.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8) Shell: /bin/sh linked to /bin/dash -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
