Bug#687804: installation-reports: users are not able to review external documentation while stuck in the installer
On Wed 19 Sep 2012 at 03:14:05 +0200, lee wrote: Richard Owlett rowl...@cloud85.net writes: Should one not be able to switch out of the installation process and into a browser (2 are already included) to search out answers? One should be able to. Since I haven't tried the life-installer yet, I don't know what's possible. It would be nice if one could switch between the installer and a browser any time after starting the installation. I wouldn't say it's needed since one can just reboot from the installer into the life system, assuming that one doesn't lose much when doing so. This assumption might be a bad idea, though. Boot into a live sytem. Start a browser. Start d-i. ALT-TAB between the two. Or CTRL-ALT-Fx for a virtual terminal. The feature you requested exists. Surely the bug could now be closed? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#687804: installation-reports: users are not able to review external documentation while stuck in the installer
Brian, le Wed 19 Sep 2012 10:15:44 +0100, a écrit : On Wed 19 Sep 2012 at 03:14:05 +0200, lee wrote: Richard Owlett rowl...@cloud85.net writes: Should one not be able to switch out of the installation process and into a browser (2 are already included) to search out answers? One should be able to. Since I haven't tried the life-installer yet, I don't know what's possible. It would be nice if one could switch between the installer and a browser any time after starting the installation. I wouldn't say it's needed since one can just reboot from the installer into the life system, assuming that one doesn't lose much when doing so. This assumption might be a bad idea, though. Boot into a live sytem. Start a browser. Start d-i. ALT-TAB between the two. Or CTRL-ALT-Fx for a virtual terminal. The feature you requested exists. Surely the bug could now be closed? So you need to know in advance that you'll need a browser. If you don't remember starting one, you're stuck in d-i. That's not really a good solution. Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#687804: installation-reports: users are not able to review external documentation while stuck in the installer
On Wed 19 Sep 2012 at 11:23:10 +0200, Samuel Thibault wrote: Brian, le Wed 19 Sep 2012 10:15:44 +0100, a écrit : Boot into a live sytem. Start a browser. Start d-i. ALT-TAB between the two. Or CTRL-ALT-Fx for a virtual terminal. The feature you requested exists. Surely the bug could now be closed? So you need to know in advance that you'll need a browser. If you don't remember starting one, you're stuck in d-i. That's not really a good solution. Yes, planning ahead is required if you want to stay in X. For a spur of the moment need for information there is w3m in a terminal. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#687804: installation-reports: users are not able to review external documentation while stuck in the installer
Brian, le Wed 19 Sep 2012 10:41:12 +0100, a écrit : On Wed 19 Sep 2012 at 11:23:10 +0200, Samuel Thibault wrote: Brian, le Wed 19 Sep 2012 10:15:44 +0100, a écrit : Boot into a live sytem. Start a browser. Start d-i. ALT-TAB between the two. Or CTRL-ALT-Fx for a virtual terminal. The feature you requested exists. Surely the bug could now be closed? So you need to know in advance that you'll need a browser. If you don't remember starting one, you're stuck in d-i. That's not really a good solution. Yes, planning ahead is required if you want to stay in X. For a spur of the moment need for information there is w3m in a terminal. How do you start a terminal? Going through the main menu is not an option, one often needs to have both the question being asked by debconf and the documentation at hand. Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#687804: installation-reports: users are not able to review external documentation while stuck in the installer
On Wed 19 Sep 2012 at 12:27:57 +0200, Samuel Thibault wrote: Brian, le Wed 19 Sep 2012 10:41:12 +0100, a écrit : Yes, planning ahead is required if you want to stay in X. For a spur of the moment need for information there is w3m in a terminal. How do you start a terminal? Going through the main menu is not an option, one often needs to have both the question being asked by debconf and the documentation at hand. I should have been clearer: CTRL-ALT-F1 With the Xfce Live image the installer window can be minimised. Also, it does not cover the task bar at the bottom of the screen, so another workspace is selectable. The documentation is only is a URL away. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#687804: installation-reports: users are not able to review external documentation while stuck in the installer
Brian, le Wed 19 Sep 2012 12:43:43 +0100, a écrit : On Wed 19 Sep 2012 at 12:27:57 +0200, Samuel Thibault wrote: Brian, le Wed 19 Sep 2012 10:41:12 +0100, a écrit : Yes, planning ahead is required if you want to stay in X. For a spur of the moment need for information there is w3m in a terminal. How do you start a terminal? Going through the main menu is not an option, one often needs to have both the question being asked by debconf and the documentation at hand. I should have been clearer: CTRL-ALT-F1 That's not very user friendly. With the Xfce Live image the installer window can be minimised. Also, it does not cover the task bar at the bottom of the screen, so another workspace is selectable. The documentation is only is a URL away. Ok, but that's not the case with at least gnome/lxde. As mentioned in a previous mail, that's what this bug could be about (documenting use the xfce liveCD seems quite lazy to me) Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#687804: installation-reports: users are not able to review external documentation while stuck in the installer
On Wed 19 Sep 2012 at 13:46:52 +0200, Samuel Thibault wrote: Brian, le Wed 19 Sep 2012 12:43:43 +0100, a écrit : With the Xfce Live image the installer window can be minimised. Also, it does not cover the task bar at the bottom of the screen, so another workspace is selectable. The documentation is only is a URL away. Ok, but that's not the case with at least gnome/lxde. As mentioned in a previous mail, that's what this bug could be about (documenting use the xfce liveCD seems quite lazy to me) I wouldn't dream of suggesting such an addition to the documentation. For GNOME and KDE ALT-F1 comes up with a menu. It's ALT-F2 on Xfce. Is this user-friendly enough? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#687804: installation-reports: users are not able to review external documentation while stuck in the installer
Samuel Thibault sthiba...@debian.org writes: Brian, le Wed 19 Sep 2012 12:43:43 +0100, a écrit : On Wed 19 Sep 2012 at 12:27:57 +0200, Samuel Thibault wrote: Brian, le Wed 19 Sep 2012 10:41:12 +0100, a écrit : Yes, planning ahead is required if you want to stay in X. For a spur of the moment need for information there is w3m in a terminal. How do you start a terminal? Going through the main menu is not an option, one often needs to have both the question being asked by debconf and the documentation at hand. I should have been clearer: CTRL-ALT-F1 That's not very user friendly. With the Xfce Live image the installer window can be minimised. Also, it does not cover the task bar at the bottom of the screen, so another workspace is selectable. The documentation is only is a URL away. Ok, but that's not the case with at least gnome/lxde. As mentioned in a previous mail, that's what this bug could be about (documenting use the xfce liveCD seems quite lazy to me) It was only about using the normal Debian installer which when I used it last time (about a 3/4 year ago) didn't include any web browser at all. It somewhere does tell you that you can press Alt-F3 or something to get a console. The live installer could tell users that they can press Ctrl-Alt-F1 (or something) to get one. You are right that people would have to consider the possibility of needing a web browser during the installation before they start. So perhaps the following might make sense: 1.) Make the life installer the recommended default installer. People choosing a different one might be expected to know what they are doing. 2.) Change [1] to clearly present this recommendation. When you look at [1], the life installer doesn't really show up. It says Try Debian live before installing. When I'm looking for the installer, I'm not looking to try out Debian before installing it, so I'm immediately ignoring this option and don't find out about it. Make the life installer the only one presented on [1] and add links to the installation manual and things like press Ctrl-Alt-F1 so it is easy for people to know and find out a few things they really should know before starting to install. Links to the other versions of the installer could (should) also be there so that people looking for them can find them. [1]: http://www.debian.org/distrib/ Maybe it's just me, but when I look at [1]: Getting Debian: Ok that's what I'm looking for. So where's the installer? Debian is distributed freely over Internet.: Yeah I know that, so where is the installer? --- Notice that I don't read any further, so I don't see that there is a link to the installation manual. I'm serious, I've been looking like 10 times or more at this page during the last couple days and I only noticed that link just now, and that only because it has a different colour now because I visited it when I followed an URL in a post in this mailing list the other day and because I'm looking more closely at the page now. Buy a set of ...: No, not what I want. Download a small ...: Hm, maybe, but I really don't care if the download is small or not. With a small download, I might be missing something useful and it might take longer to install because more stuff needs to be downloaded and I don't want to wait on that. Download large ...: Ok, what means large? Buy a computer with Debian pre-installed: No, not what I want. So what means large? Useful when the install target has no Internet connection.: Well, I do have an internet connection. So what is it about? The CD/DVD images can be downloaded using HTTP/FTP, BitTorrent, or Jigdo.: Yeah sure, I guess I can somehow download them!? That isn't relevant here. BitTorrent is painfully slow and you might never get what you're trying to get, and I don't know about jigdo, so screw that. The large CD and DVD images contain more packages, making it easier to install machines without an Internet connection. However, if you get a whole set of CDs or DVDs, you will get a lot of packages that you won't actually use.: Err, hm, ok, what's that supposed to mean? That I would download the whole distribution? Or a larger CD or DVD? There is only so much you can fit onto a CD or DVD, so what does it mean? Maybe I need a small image because I don't want to download so much? Use Internet to download additional files during installation.: I will have to do that anyway unless I download the whole distribution. Even if I download the whole distribution, it will become outdated. (Since I'm running testing, I'm actually looking for an installer for testing. That is even harder to find.) Buy a set ...: Ah, no, that takes too long ... See what I mean? 1.) Try Debian live before installing is a tiny option at the bottom right of the screen, overshadowed by all the others. It is the first option that I filtered out on first sight of the page because
Bug#687804: installation-reports: users are not able to review external documentation while stuck in the installer
Jon Dowland j...@debian.org writes: The installer (in expert mode) supports an ssh client on an alternative VT, afaik. One can connect to another machine with stuff already installed via this if necessary. Surely this is sufficient to address the request. This requires you to have the other machine you can connect to. The idea is to be able to install without having another computer to fall back to. The life-installer CD probably solves the problem; I'll have to try it. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#687804: installation-reports: users are not able to review external documentation while stuck in the installer
Richard Owlett rowl...@cloud85.net writes: Should one not be able to switch out of the installation process and into a browser (2 are already included) to search out answers? One should be able to. Since I haven't tried the life-installer yet, I don't know what's possible. It would be nice if one could switch between the installer and a browser any time after starting the installation. I wouldn't say it's needed since one can just reboot from the installer into the life system, assuming that one doesn't lose much when doing so. This assumption might be a bad idea, though. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#687804: installation-reports: users are not able to review external documentation while stuck in the installer
Christian PERRIER wrote: Quoting lee (l...@yun.yagibdah.de): Package: installation-reports Severity: wishlist Dear Maintainer, this is a feature request: It would be nice if users would have at least a web browser like lynx and an irc client available while they are using the installer. There has been/currently is a lengthy discussion about this on the debian-user mailing list starting with Frankly speaking, I would very much prefer seeing people working on current issues of the installer (I mean, not only during 3 months before the release) rather than adding more bells, whistles and shiny new features. It would be great if existing features were kept working during the entire release process. This is of course not targeted at you who reported this bug (don't shoot the messenger)but more at all these people who have great ideas on debian-user but never show up in development teams. If you want a web browser, an IRC client, games, etc. in D-I, then please come and first fix issues related to GRUB and encrypted partitions, partitions sizes, preseeding, documentation, etc. *Then* we'll see if we add a web browser. As I tried to say elsewhere in this thread, I suspect the solution already exists in the liveCD. [and as an aside to Mr. Thibault the reason I believe so is having used the CD and followed several discussions on several Debian groups] There are icons in lower right for several workspaces. I've seen comments about switching consoles with function key combinations. Should one not be able to switch out of the installation process and into a browser (2 are already included) to search out answers? Although launching a browser internally and loading a specific link may be a significant effort, if my idea is technically feasible it would apparently only require a page of instructional text. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#687804: installation-reports: users are not able to review external documentation while stuck in the installer
The installer (in expert mode) supports an ssh client on an alternative VT, afaik. One can connect to another machine with stuff already installed via this if necessary. Surely this is sufficient to address the request. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#687804: installation-reports: users are not able to review external documentation while stuck in the installer
Richard Owlett wrote: Should one not be able to switch out of the installation process and into a browser (2 are already included) to search out answers? One should, but as d-i on the live CD is currently implemented, one cannot. d-i runs as a fullscreen window, and I couldn't see any easily-discoverable way to switch out of it to try other programs the one time I briefly tried using d-i from a live CD (pretty good newbie facimile ;). That is a legitimate bug, I think. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#687804: installation-reports: users are not able to review external documentation while stuck in the installer
Joey Hess, le Mon 17 Sep 2012 11:57:14 -0400, a écrit : Richard Owlett wrote: Should one not be able to switch out of the installation process and into a browser (2 are already included) to search out answers? One should, but as d-i on the live CD is currently implemented, one cannot. d-i runs as a fullscreen window, and I couldn't see any easily-discoverable way to switch out of it to try other programs the one time I briefly tried using d-i from a live CD (pretty good newbie facimile ;). That is a legitimate bug, I think. I'd say so too. Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#687804: installation-reports: users are not able to review external documentation while stuck in the installer
lee, le Sun 16 Sep 2012 04:29:21 +0200, a écrit : The goal would be to give users a working system included on the installer CD/DVD that provides them at least with a (graphical) web browser, software to burn installation CDs/DVDs/bluerays, an irc client and other useful tools so that they can communicate and read web pages and are able to overcome problems that they may have during the installation. Mmm, this just seems like the liveCD that we already have, doesn't it? Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#687804: installation-reports: users are not able to review external documentation while stuck in the installer
Samuel Thibault wrote: lee, le Sun 16 Sep 2012 04:29:21 +0200, a écrit : The goal would be to give users a working system included on the installer CD/DVD that provides them at least with a (graphical) web browser, software to burn installation CDs/DVDs/bluerays, an irc client and other useful tools so that they can communicate and read web pages and are able to overcome problems that they may have during the installation. Mmm, this just seems like the liveCD that we already have, doesn't it? Samuel No, not really. Although I suspect all the tools exist on the liveCD such that a Linux *EXPERT* could accomplish the op's goal. Consider the flowing sequence of events. 1. Your grandmother has been been using a proprietary OS and its associated browser/email program. IOW, computer literate enough to be comfortable being a _user_. 2. You talk up the advantages of Linux and give her a liveCD, demonstrating how to boot and do her favorite three tasks. 3. One morning, while you are at work, she decides she will install Debian. After all that inviting 'install icon' is on screen and she has liked her experience. 4. She clicks install. 5. She is asked a question and does not know what a key word/idea means. She knows she could Google it. But no connection to WEB. 6. Linux declared uninstallable : [I'm tempted to paraphrase the nursery rhyme starting For want of ...] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#687804: installation-reports: users are not able to review external documentation while stuck in the installer
Samuel Thibault sthiba...@debian.org writes: lee, le Sun 16 Sep 2012 04:29:21 +0200, a écrit : The goal would be to give users a working system included on the installer CD/DVD that provides them at least with a (graphical) web browser, software to burn installation CDs/DVDs/bluerays, an irc client and other useful tools so that they can communicate and read web pages and are able to overcome problems that they may have during the installation. Mmm, this just seems like the liveCD that we already have, doesn't it? Oh --- I was about to say that such a CD isn't mentioned anywhere on [1], and looking at it, there suddenly is :) That's awesome, thank you :) I'll try it out when I set up a VM. Is there such an image for testing, too? Suggestion: Why not make this the first choice? Currently, the small installation image is on the top left on the website and most people probably see that first. -- http://www.asciiribbon.org/ http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc1855 http://www.caliburn.nl/topposting.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#687804: installation-reports: users are not able to review external documentation while stuck in the installer
Richard Owlett, le Sun 16 Sep 2012 08:32:55 -0500, a écrit : Samuel Thibault wrote: lee, le Sun 16 Sep 2012 04:29:21 +0200, a écrit : The goal would be to give users a working system included on the installer CD/DVD that provides them at least with a (graphical) web browser, software to burn installation CDs/DVDs/bluerays, an irc client and other useful tools so that they can communicate and read web pages and are able to overcome problems that they may have during the installation. Mmm, this just seems like the liveCD that we already have, doesn't it? Samuel No, not really. Although I suspect all the tools exist on the liveCD such that a Linux *EXPERT* could accomplish the op's goal. Please do not suspect, but actually try, before arguing. The first (and only) thing that the user will see on the liveCD desktop is a debian installer icon, which starts the debian installer just like it would get started by a standard installation. Except that the liveCD also has a webbrowser etc. Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#687804: installation-reports: users are not able to review external documentation while stuck in the installer
Quoting lee (l...@yun.yagibdah.de): Package: installation-reports Severity: wishlist Dear Maintainer, this is a feature request: It would be nice if users would have at least a web browser like lynx and an irc client available while they are using the installer. There has been/currently is a lengthy discussion about this on the debian-user mailing list starting with Frankly speaking, I would very much prefer seeing people working on current issues of the installer (I mean, not only during 3 months before the release) rather than adding more bells, whistles and shiny new features. It would be great if existing features were kept working during the entire release process. This is of course not targeted at you who reported this bug (don't shoot the messenger)but more at all these people who have great ideas on debian-user but never show up in development teams. If you want a web browser, an IRC client, games, etc. in D-I, then please come and first fix issues related to GRUB and encrypted partitions, partitions sizes, preseeding, documentation, etc. *Then* we'll see if we add a web browser. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Bug#687804: installation-reports: users are not able to review external documentation while stuck in the installer
Package: installation-reports Severity: wishlist Dear Maintainer, this is a feature request: It would be nice if users would have at least a web browser like lynx and an irc client available while they are using the installer. There has been/currently is a lengthy discussion about this on the debian-user mailing list starting with , | Message-ID: 928c0bda5efc0f17394b8f5f1d606ad3.squir...@fruiteater.riseup.net | Date: Fri, 7 Sep 2012 13:37:55 -0700 | Subject: Installation | From: Weaver wea...@riseup.net | To: debian-u...@lists.debian.org ` The discussion began with the suggestion to include an explanation into the D/i about what partitioning is when it comes to this stage. The feature request is like this (quoted from a post to debian-user I'm about to send): Wouldn't it be great if the D/i would present you at the partitioning step with something like: , |You can find detailed information that can | |help you to decide about partitioning at | |the following places: | | | |http://www.debian.org/releases/stable/installmanual| |http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disk_partitioning | |http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paging| |[...] | | | `--- That could be a menu from which you select an URL and the corresponding page would be displayed in a web browser. You can read that with lynx just fine. Using a link to a wiki page that lists these pages would be better, though. The information could be updated without needing to change the installer. Make it a help feature, i. e. tell the users that they can press 'F1' or '?' any time and give them help through this related to whatever point in the installer they happen to be. The goal would be to give users a working system included on the installer CD/DVD that provides them at least with a (graphical) web browser, software to burn installation CDs/DVDs/bluerays, an irc client and other useful tools so that they can communicate and read web pages and are able to overcome problems that they may have during the installation. Including lynx and an irc client (and creating a wiki page) would be first steps which are probably much easier to do than extending the installer to a working system. *** End of the template - remove these lines *** -- Package-specific info: Boot method: CD Image version: don't remember Date: Date and time of the install Machine: not relevant Partitions: df -Tl will do; the raw partition table is preferred Base System Installation Checklist: [O] = OK, [E] = Error (please elaborate below), [ ] = didn't try it Initial boot: [ ] Detect network card:[ ] Configure network: [ ] Detect CD: [ ] Load installer modules: [ ] Clock/timezone setup: [ ] User/password setup:[ ] Detect hard drives: [ ] Partition hard drives: [ ] Install base system:[ ] Install tasks: [ ] Install boot loader:[ ] Overall install:[ ] Comments/Problems: Description of the install, in prose, and any thoughts, comments and ideas you had during the initial install. -- Please make sure that the hardware-summary log file, and any other installation logs that you think would be useful are attached to this report. Please compress large files using gzip. Once you have filled out this report, mail it to sub...@bugs.debian.org. == Installer lsb-release: == DISTRIB_ID=Debian DISTRIB_DESCRIPTION=Debian GNU/Linux installer DISTRIB_RELEASE=6.0 (squeeze) - installer build 20101008-00:07 X_INSTALLATION_MEDIUM=cdrom == Installer hardware-summary: == uname -a: Linux yun 2.6.32-5-amd64 #1 SMP Thu Aug 12 13:01:50 UTC 2010 x86_64 GNU/Linux lspci -knn: 00:00.0 Host bridge [0600]: ATI Technologies Inc RD790 Northbridge only dual slot PCI-e_GFX and HT3 K8 part [1002:5956] lspci -knn: Subsystem: ATI Technologies Inc RD790 Northbridge only dual slot PCI-e_GFX and HT3 K8 part [1002:5956] lspci -knn: 00:02.0 PCI bridge [0604]: ATI Technologies Inc RD790 PCI to PCI bridge (external gfx0 port A) [1002:5978] lspci -knn: Kernel driver in use: pcieport lspci -knn: 00:05.0 PCI bridge [0604]: ATI Technologies Inc RD790 PCI to PCI bridge (PCI express gpp port B) [1002:597b] lspci -knn: Kernel driver in use: pcieport lspci -knn: 00:06.0 PCI bridge [0604]: ATI Technologies Inc RD790 PCI to PCI bridge (PCI express gpp port C) [1002:597c] lspci -knn: Kernel driver in use: pcieport lspci -knn: 00:09.0 PCI bridge [0604]: ATI
