Bug#758231: this is actively harmful
On Thu, Oct 23, 2014 at 02:22:45AM +0200, Michael Biebl wrote: It's unfortunate that Gerrit objected to this proposed change and derailed the discussion. Well, there's two sides of the medal. Actually I felt that you (plural) derailed discussion, even before I had chance to start it. That's unfortunate https://lists.debian.org/debian-policy/2014/08/msg00037.html Regards, Gerrit. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#758231: closed by Michael Biebl em...@michaelbiebl.de (Re: Bug#758231: this is actively harmful)
On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 09:15:21PM +, Debian Bug Tracking System wrote: From: Michael Biebl em...@michaelbiebl.de Am 23.10.2014 um 01:56 schrieb Adam Borowski: For now, let's not change packages back and forth. Let's close this non-issue in rsyslog, it's a problem with the policy. Agreed. Well, obviously I do not agree. And from policy discussions I also don't read that there's agreement that it's a problem with the policy. I'm prepared to accept, if I fail to make my personal and professional interest and opinion clear enough or don't have any supporters on it, and you manage to get the policy change through. But we're not there yet. For the records, this bug can be closed because priorities have been adjusted accordingly, making things more transparent, and now rsyslogd no longer depends on packages with priority extra. Regards, Gerrit. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#758231: closed by Michael Biebl em...@michaelbiebl.de (Re: Bug#758231: this is actively harmful)
Am 03.11.2014 um 14:10 schrieb Gerrit Pape: On Sun, Oct 26, 2014 at 09:15:21PM +, Debian Bug Tracking System wrote: From: Michael Biebl em...@michaelbiebl.de Am 23.10.2014 um 01:56 schrieb Adam Borowski: For now, let's not change packages back and forth. Let's close this non-issue in rsyslog, it's a problem with the policy. Agreed. Well, obviously I do not agree. And from policy discussions I also don't read that there's agreement that it's a problem with the policy. I'm prepared to accept, if I fail to make my personal and professional interest and opinion clear enough or don't have any supporters on it, and you manage to get the policy change through. But we're not there yet. For the records, this bug can be closed because priorities have been adjusted accordingly, making things more transparent, and now rsyslogd no longer depends on packages with priority extra. So now we have libraries like liblognorm, which are only used by rsyslog, raised to priority important. This means, if someone installs a new system and decides to use syslog-ng instead of rsyslog, he'll get the libraries anyway, which are then completely useless. This is not making the process more transparent, but only more convoluted. I hope you realize how stupid that is. Michael -- Why is it that all of the instruments seeking intelligent life in the universe are pointed away from Earth? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Bug#758231: this is actively harmful
This policy requirement is only historic. It made sense when the tools couldn't cope with this situation, which was the case more than a decade ago. These days, it is actively harmful: it makes debootstrap install junk if I exclude systemd (as its dependencies have an elevated priority), greatly increases the work when trying to reduce the size of standard (as in a recent thread on debian-devel), etc. Thus, I say that it needs to be revisited once people are not busy with the freeze. I'll raise this issue with the policy team, suggesting changing the must requirement all the way to must not: a package must not elevate its priority just because it's depended on unless it has extra functionality that itself warrants a given priority. For now, let's not change packages back and forth. Let's close this non-issue in rsyslog, it's a problem with the policy. -- // If you believe in so-called intellectual property, please immediately // cease using counterfeit alphabets. Instead, contact the nearest temple // of Amon, whose priests will provide you with scribal services for all // your writing needs, for Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory prices. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#758231: this is actively harmful
Am 23.10.2014 um 01:56 schrieb Adam Borowski: This policy requirement is only historic. It made sense when the tools couldn't cope with this situation, which was the case more than a decade ago. These days, it is actively harmful: it makes debootstrap install junk if I exclude systemd (as its dependencies have an elevated priority), greatly increases the work when trying to reduce the size of standard (as in a recent thread on debian-devel), etc. Thus, I say that it needs to be revisited once people are not busy with the freeze. I'll raise this issue with the policy team, suggesting changing the must requirement all the way to must not: a package must not elevate its priority just because it's depended on unless it has extra functionality that itself warrants a given priority. For now, let's not change packages back and forth. Let's close this non-issue in rsyslog, it's a problem with the policy. Well, this is exactly my point. Imho it's actively harmful to raise the priority of libraries and helper packages. Those packages should never be installed due to their priority. Libraries and helper packages should be installed because other packages depend on it. I'll support such a policy change and that's the reason I wanted clarification from the policy maintainers on this. Related to that is https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=758234 which Ansgar filed as a result of this. It's unfortunate that Gerrit objected to this proposed change and derailed the discussion. -- Why is it that all of the instruments seeking intelligent life in the universe are pointed away from Earth? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
