Bug#784268: vim-tiny should provide vim alternative
On Wed, May 06, 2015 at 12:06:02AM -0400, James McCoy wrote: This is the new description I have committed: Description: Vi IMproved - enhanced vi editor - compact version Vim is an almost compatible version of the UNIX editor Vi. . This package contains a minimal version of vim compiled with no GUI and a small subset of features. This package's primary purpose is to provide the vi binary for base installations. . If a more featureful build of Vim is wanted, try one of the following packages: vim, vim-nox, vim-athena, vim-gtk, or vim-gnome. I still think it should explicitly state that the package does NOT provide vim, given how many times in the description it mentions vim. Stating that the primary purpose is to provide vi does not in any way make anyone think that it does not provide some kind of vim. Sure the primary purpose is to provide vi, but obviously the secondary purpose must be to provide a stripped down version of vim. That's what the description still says it does. And the last line says if you want a better vim, install one of the others packages, which again completely implies that this package does provide vim. How about: Description: Vi IMproved - enhanced vi editor - compact version Vim is an almost compatible version of the UNIX editor Vi. . This package contains a minimal version of vim compiled with no GUI and a small subset of features. This package's only purpose is to provide the vi binary for base installations. . If Vim is wanted, try one of the following more featureful packages: vim, vim-nox, vim-athena, vim-gtk, or vim-gnome. I'll give some thought to making vim-runtime a Recommends instead of a Depends for the other Vim packages. I need to determine what impact that would have, but would that be a viable alternative for you? I don't think it would help me that much and I don't like how that would impact typical users if anyone happens to use --no-install-recommends, or configure apt to work like it used to. So I would not think such a change was a good idea. Yes, nvi used to fill this role. Looking back at the discussion (hey, you were involved back then too), the re-creation of vim-tiny and discussion around replacing nvi happened at the same time. Once vim-tiny was in a testable state, the question was raised about whether it should be part of base. I probably wasn't reading the lists back then, and for the most part I do have full vim installed. I just happen to work with a lot of smaller systems too where having vim is nice but have no need for most of the features and certainly nothing from the runtime, but that is a special case environment and I can fix things for it myself. I forgot I was involved in that discussion 10 years ago. Even then I wanted a smaller vim for the exact same systems. Somethings never change do they. Apparently I am consistent and persistent. -- Len Sorensen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#784268: vim-tiny should provide vim alternative
On Tue, May 05, 2015 at 02:09:14PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: On Mon, May 04, 2015 at 08:56:05PM -0400, James McCoy wrote: True. I should add some more detail there. That I think would help reduce confusion. This is the new description I have committed: Description: Vi IMproved - enhanced vi editor - compact version Vim is an almost compatible version of the UNIX editor Vi. . This package contains a minimal version of vim compiled with no GUI and a small subset of features. This package's primary purpose is to provide the vi binary for base installations. . If a more featureful build of Vim is wanted, try one of the following packages: vim, vim-nox, vim-athena, vim-gtk, or vim-gnome. I really wish to have a way to just install packages and have things work well. Sure most systems are not tight enough on disk space that full vim iS a problem, but some smaller systems it can become relevant. I'll give some thought to making vim-runtime a Recommends instead of a Depends for the other Vim packages. I need to determine what impact that would have, but would that be a viable alternative for you? Everyone has vim-tiny installed by default. The only reason the package was created was to provide the vi binary for the base image, as expected on a Unix system. I thought it was created to provide a smaller vim, and only later took over the job of providing vi. I thought something else used to do that job in Debian in the past. Like nvi or elvis or something. Yes, nvi used to fill this role. Looking back at the discussion (hey, you were involved back then too), the re-creation of vim-tiny and discussion around replacing nvi happened at the same time. Once vim-tiny was in a testable state, the question was raised about whether it should be part of base. Cheers, -- James GPG Key: 4096R/331BA3DB 2011-12-05 James McCoy james...@debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#784268: vim-tiny should provide vim alternative
On Mon, May 04, 2015 at 08:56:05PM -0400, James McCoy wrote: We're not talking about vim vs. vim-nox here. We're talking about vim-tiny vs. anything else. Below are the list of features that aren't included in vim-tiny, many of which aren't “obscure” features: B *+arabic* |Arabic| language support N *+autocmd* |:autocmd|, automatic commands N *+browse* |:browse| command N *+builtin_terms* some terminals builtin |builtin-terms| B *++builtin_terms* maximal terminals builtin |builtin-terms| N *+byte_offset* support for 'o' flag in 'statusline' option, go N *+cindent* |'cindent'|, C indenting N *+clientserver*Unix and Win32: Remote invocation |clientserver| N *+cmdline_compl* command line completion |cmdline-completion| N *+cmdline_hist*command line history |cmdline-history| N *+cmdline_info*|'showcmd'| and |'ruler'| N *+comments*|'comments'| support B *+conceal* conceal support, see |conceal| |:syn-conceal| etc. N *+cryptv* encryption support |encryption| B *+cscope* |cscope| support N *+dialog_gui* Support for |:confirm| with GUI dialog. N *+dialog_con* Support for |:confirm| with console dialog. N *+dialog_con_gui* Support for |:confirm| with GUI and console dialog. N *+diff*|vimdiff| and 'diff' I can imagine some people would miss vimdiff. N *+digraphs*|digraphs| *E196* B *+emacs_tags* |emacs-tags| files N *+eval*expression evaluation |eval.txt| N *+ex_extra*Vim's extra Ex commands: |:center|, |:left|, N *+extra_search*|'hlsearch'| and |'incsearch'| options. B *+farsi* |farsi| language N *+file_in_path*|gf|, |CTRL-W_f| and |cfile| N *+find_in_path*include file searches: |[I|, |:isearch|, N *+folding* |folding| N *+gettext* message translations |multi-lang| N *+insert_expand* |insert_expand| Insert mode completion N *+jumplist*|jumplist| B *+keymap* |'keymap'| B *+langmap* |'langmap'| N *+libcall* |libcall()| N *+linebreak* |'linebreak'|, |'breakat'| and |'showbreak'| N *+lispindent* |'lisp'| N *+listcmds*Vim commands for the list of buffers |buffer-hidden| N *+localmap*Support for mappings local to a buffer |:map-local| N *+menu*|:menu| N *+mksession* |:mksession| N *+modify_fname*|filename-modifiers| N *+mouse* Mouse handling |mouse-using| N *+mouseshape* |'mouseshape'| B *+mouse_dec* Unix only: Dec terminal mouse handling |dec-mouse| N *+mouse_gpm* Unix only: Linux console mouse handling |gpm-mouse| N *+mouse_jsbterm* JSB mouse handling |jsbterm-mouse| B *+mouse_netterm* Unix only: netterm mouse handling |netterm-mouse| N *+mouse_pterm* QNX only: pterm mouse handling |qnx-terminal| N *+mouse_sysmouse* Unix only: *BSD console mouse handling |sysmouse| B *+mouse_sgr* Unix only: sgr mouse handling |sgr-mouse| B *+mouse_urxvt* Unix only: urxvt mouse handling |urxvt-mouse| N *+mouse_xterm* Unix only: xterm mouse handling |xterm-mouse| N *+path_extra* Up/downwards search in 'path' and 'tags' N *+persistent_undo* Persistent undo |undo-persistence| N *+printer* |:hardcopy| command H *+profile* |:profile| command N *+quickfix*|:make| and |quickfix| commands N *+reltime* |reltime()| function, 'hlsearch'/'incsearch' timeout, B *+rightleft* Right to left typing |'rightleft'| N *+scrollbind* |'scrollbind'| B *+signs* |:sign| N *+smartindent* |'smartindent'| N *+startuptime* |--startuptime| argument N *+statusline* Options 'statusline', 'rulerformat' and special N *+syntax* Syntax highlighting |syntax| N *+tag_binary* binary searching in tags file |tag-binary-search| N *+tag_old_static* old method for static tags |tag-old-static| N *+termresponse*support for |t_RV| and |v:termresponse| N *+textobjects* |text-objects| selection N *+title* Setting the window 'title' and 'icon' N *+toolbar* |gui-toolbar| N *+user_commands* User-defined commands. |user-commands| N *+viminfo* |'viminfo'| N *+vertsplit* Vertically split windows |:vsplit| N *+virtualedit* |'virtualedit'| N *+visualextra* extra Visual mode commands |blockwise-operators| N *+vreplace*|gR| and |gr| N *+wildignore* |'wildignore'| N *+wildmenu*|'wildmenu'| N *+xterm_clipboard* Unix only: xterm clipboard handling N *+X11* Unix only: can restore window title |X11| Some of the obvious features that people expect from a typical vim build are: +autocmd, +eval, +syntax, +quickfix,
Bug#784268: vim-tiny should provide vim alternative
Package: vim-tiny Version: 2:7.4.712-2 Severity: wishlist It would be really useful if vim-tiny was put back to providing a vim alternative link. The current setup is illogical and confusing (rather contrary to the changelog entry from 2008 that claimed this state was made to avoid being confusing). The changelog entry being: * [f7bfa57] Don't install vim alternatives for vim-tiny. vim-tiny is built to act like vi, so the vim alternative just causes more confusion than it's worth (by default). The fact I install a package with vim in the name probably means I would like the vim command to exist. And certainly these days vim-tiny behaves rather much as I would expect vim to behave and not at all as I expect vi to behave. It is a perfectly useable editor. I am used to typing vim to edit files. I do not type vi, because I don't want to use some other limited functionality vi clone. Being able to have a nice small vim on some space limited systems and still be able to just type vim as I always do would really be nice. Having to type vim.tiny is just odd and confusing. This has been bothering me for years, but I have always just resolved it by throwing away a bunch of disk space by installing any other vim package to solve the problem. Without the alternatives link for vim, the vim-tiny package is of no use from my point of view. It does not give me a vim command in the path contrary to the name of the package and it's description. Please give us back the vim link that just makes sense to have. Clearly its removal has in fact been causing confusion rather than avoiding it. -- Package-specific info: --- real paths of main Vim binaries --- /usr/bin/vi is /usr/bin/vim.gtk /usr/bin/vim is /usr/bin/vim.gtk /usr/bin/gvim is /usr/bin/vim.gtk -- System Information: Debian Release: stretch/sid APT prefers stable-updates APT policy: (500, 'stable-updates'), (500, 'unstable'), (500, 'stable'), (1, 'experimental') Architecture: amd64 (x86_64) Foreign Architectures: i386 Kernel: Linux 3.16.0-4-amd64 (SMP w/4 CPU cores) Locale: LANG=en_CA.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=en_CA.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8) Shell: /bin/sh linked to /bin/dash Init: systemd (via /run/systemd/system) Versions of packages vim-tiny depends on: ii libacl1 2.2.52-2 ii libc62.19-18 ii libselinux1 2.3-2 ii libtinfo55.9+20140913-1+b1 ii vim-common 2:7.4.712-2 vim-tiny recommends no packages. Versions of packages vim-tiny suggests: pn indent none -- no debconf information -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#784268: vim-tiny should provide vim alternative
Control: forcemerge 681012 -1 On Mon, May 04, 2015 at 02:16:01PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: It would be really useful if vim-tiny was put back to providing a vim alternative link. The current setup is illogical and confusing (rather contrary to the changelog entry from 2008 that claimed this state was made to avoid being confusing). This isn't going to change. I've explained the reasoning fairly thoroughly in #681012 (which I'm merging this into). This has been bothering me for years, but I have always just resolved it by throwing away a bunch of disk space by installing any other vim package to solve the problem. Then setup an alias or ~/bin/vim instead. vim-tiny has an explicit purpose and that's not going to change. Clearly its removal has in fact been causing confusion rather than avoiding it. In the various support channels I'm a part of, I've seen far less confusion about vim-tiny providing vi than the other way around. Cheers, -- James GPG Key: 4096R/331BA3DB 2011-12-05 James McCoy james...@debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Bug#784268: vim-tiny should provide vim alternative
On Mon, May 04, 2015 at 03:41:38PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote: On Mon, May 04, 2015 at 03:18:09PM -0400, James McCoy wrote: This isn't going to change. I've explained the reasoning fairly thoroughly in #681012 (which I'm merging this into). I just read that, and I don't agree with the explanation. It has lots of vim features that work great, even if some of the more obscure ones do not. I am sure someone could find features that exist in the vim-nox that are obviously not in vim, and who says those missing vim features are not expected by some people? We're not talking about vim vs. vim-nox here. We're talking about vim-tiny vs. anything else. Below are the list of features that aren't included in vim-tiny, many of which aren't “obscure” features: B *+arabic*|Arabic| language support N *+autocmd* |:autocmd|, automatic commands N *+browse*|:browse| command N *+builtin_terms* some terminals builtin |builtin-terms| B *++builtin_terms*maximal terminals builtin |builtin-terms| N *+byte_offset* support for 'o' flag in 'statusline' option, go N *+cindent* |'cindent'|, C indenting N *+clientserver* Unix and Win32: Remote invocation |clientserver| N *+cmdline_compl* command line completion |cmdline-completion| N *+cmdline_hist* command line history |cmdline-history| N *+cmdline_info* |'showcmd'| and |'ruler'| N *+comments* |'comments'| support B *+conceal* conceal support, see |conceal| |:syn-conceal| etc. N *+cryptv*encryption support |encryption| B *+cscope*|cscope| support N *+dialog_gui*Support for |:confirm| with GUI dialog. N *+dialog_con*Support for |:confirm| with console dialog. N *+dialog_con_gui*Support for |:confirm| with GUI and console dialog. N *+diff* |vimdiff| and 'diff' N *+digraphs* |digraphs| *E196* B *+emacs_tags*|emacs-tags| files N *+eval* expression evaluation |eval.txt| N *+ex_extra* Vim's extra Ex commands: |:center|, |:left|, N *+extra_search* |'hlsearch'| and |'incsearch'| options. B *+farsi* |farsi| language N *+file_in_path* |gf|, |CTRL-W_f| and |cfile| N *+find_in_path* include file searches: |[I|, |:isearch|, N *+folding* |folding| N *+gettext* message translations |multi-lang| N *+insert_expand* |insert_expand| Insert mode completion N *+jumplist* |jumplist| B *+keymap*|'keymap'| B *+langmap* |'langmap'| N *+libcall* |libcall()| N *+linebreak* |'linebreak'|, |'breakat'| and |'showbreak'| N *+lispindent*|'lisp'| N *+listcmds* Vim commands for the list of buffers |buffer-hidden| N *+localmap* Support for mappings local to a buffer |:map-local| N *+menu* |:menu| N *+mksession* |:mksession| N *+modify_fname* |filename-modifiers| N *+mouse* Mouse handling |mouse-using| N *+mouseshape*|'mouseshape'| B *+mouse_dec* Unix only: Dec terminal mouse handling |dec-mouse| N *+mouse_gpm* Unix only: Linux console mouse handling |gpm-mouse| N *+mouse_jsbterm* JSB mouse handling |jsbterm-mouse| B *+mouse_netterm* Unix only: netterm mouse handling |netterm-mouse| N *+mouse_pterm* QNX only: pterm mouse handling |qnx-terminal| N *+mouse_sysmouse*Unix only: *BSD console mouse handling |sysmouse| B *+mouse_sgr* Unix only: sgr mouse handling |sgr-mouse| B *+mouse_urxvt* Unix only: urxvt mouse handling |urxvt-mouse| N *+mouse_xterm* Unix only: xterm mouse handling |xterm-mouse| N *+path_extra*Up/downwards search in 'path' and 'tags' N *+persistent_undo* Persistent undo |undo-persistence| N *+printer* |:hardcopy| command H *+profile* |:profile| command N *+quickfix* |:make| and |quickfix| commands N *+reltime* |reltime()| function, 'hlsearch'/'incsearch' timeout, B *+rightleft* Right to left typing |'rightleft'| N *+scrollbind*|'scrollbind'| B *+signs* |:sign| N *+smartindent* |'smartindent'| N *+startuptime* |--startuptime| argument N *+statusline*Options 'statusline', 'rulerformat' and special N *+syntax*Syntax highlighting |syntax| N *+tag_binary*binary searching in tags file |tag-binary-search| N *+tag_old_static*old method for static tags |tag-old-static| N *+termresponse* support for |t_RV| and |v:termresponse| N *+textobjects* |text-objects| selection N *+title* Setting the window 'title' and 'icon' N *+toolbar* |gui-toolbar| N *+user_commands* User-defined commands. |user-commands| N *+viminfo* |'viminfo'| N *+vertsplit* Vertically split windows |:vsplit| N *+virtualedit* |'virtualedit'| N *+visualextra*
Bug#784268: vim-tiny should provide vim alternative
On Mon, May 04, 2015 at 03:18:09PM -0400, James McCoy wrote: This isn't going to change. I've explained the reasoning fairly thoroughly in #681012 (which I'm merging this into). I just read that, and I don't agree with the explanation. It has lots of vim features that work great, even if some of the more obscure ones do not. I am sure someone could find features that exist in the vim-nox that are obviously not in vim, and who says those missing vim features are not expected by some people? Then setup an alias or ~/bin/vim instead. vim-tiny has an explicit purpose and that's not going to change. Perhaps that explicit purpose ought to be in the package description then. The current description rather matches what it actually provides, which is a minimal nice to use vim that is much more than just vi. The description does not give any indication that vim-tiny does NOT provide vim. It says it provides a pretty minimal version of vim. Having to go hack up the system rather than just install packags to get sane behaviour is rather inconvinient. And if something expects /usr/vim to work, it won't and I don't want to go creating a file there that could later conflict with teh alternatives system. In the various support channels I'm a part of, I've seen far less confusion about vim-tiny providing vi than the other way around. Well running vim.tiny gives different (and better) behaviour than running it with the vi symlink. I think you should write a better package description instead warning people what they are in fact getting and put back the vim link. Most people won't install vim-tiny, but at least those that have a reason to will get something that works. My only other option is to manually maintain patches to the package and keep rebuilding it every update. That would be a pain in the ass but I guess I may not have a choice if the package isn't going to do the right thing. Clearly this isn't the first time this request is being made. I think this indicates the current state is wrong. Is the problem really that vim-tiny comes on all debian systems until someone installs a bigger version of vim explicitly and that having vim work before you install vim could confuse people? I think the problem is that there are in fact people that would like vim without the disk space cost of vim-runtime, and vim-tiny seems like it should provide that service (especially given the package description), but due to the lack of the vim link it doesn't. In every other way it would be perfect for the job. There must be some way that could be resolved without causing confusion on fresh installs and without requiring people to do hack jobs to their systems. How about a vim-small package that simply depends on vim-tiny but provides the alternatives hook to add vim. People would have to explicitly ask for it and the description could explain what the limitations are. At least then people that want it could have vim-tiny actually work as vim which is is clearly quite capable of doing, but the default install would not have vim until you explicitly install one. I guess I better go patching and building then. -- Len Sorensen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-bugs-dist-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
