Bug#838777: Policy 11.8.4 for x-window-manager needs update for freedesktop menus

2016-09-24 Thread Russ Allbery 
Josh Triplett  writes:
> On Sat, Sep 24, 2016 at 12:57:04PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> Josh Triplett  writes:

>>> Based on some conversations on #debian-devel on the purpose of
>>> x-window-manager (as launched by
>>> /etc/X11/Xsession.d/50x11-common_determine-startup), it seems like a
>>> window manager that just manages windows, and expects a separately
>>> launched menu/taskbar program or desktop environment to provide the
>>> ability for the user to launch programs or otherwise do anything
>>> useful, shouldn't register an x-window-manager alternative at all.
>>> Otherwise, the user might end up staring at a desktop they can't
>>> interact with at all.

>> Er, this seems to imply that twm shouldn't register as
>> x-window-manager, which sounds wrong and isn't how Debian has ever
>> worked.  Or am I misunderstanding what you mean by "just manages
>> windows"?

> twm has a menu to launch additional applications; left-click on the
> desktop.  So, it should continue registering an x-window-manager
> alternative.

> I'm talking about window managers like metacity or mutter, which without
> an associated desktop environment provide no way to launch applications
> or even exit.

Oh, okay, I see.  Yeah, that seems sensible.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)

Bug#838777: Policy 11.8.4 for x-window-manager needs update for freedesktop menus

2016-09-24 Thread Josh Triplett 
On Sat, Sep 24, 2016 at 12:57:04PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Josh Triplett  writes:
> 
> > Based on some conversations on #debian-devel on the purpose of
> > x-window-manager (as launched by
> > /etc/X11/Xsession.d/50x11-common_determine-startup), it seems like a
> > window manager that just manages windows, and expects a separately
> > launched menu/taskbar program or desktop environment to provide the
> > ability for the user to launch programs or otherwise do anything useful,
> > shouldn't register an x-window-manager alternative at all.  Otherwise,
> > the user might end up staring at a desktop they can't interact with at
> > all.
> 
> Er, this seems to imply that twm shouldn't register as x-window-manager,
> which sounds wrong and isn't how Debian has ever worked.  Or am I
> misunderstanding what you mean by "just manages windows"?

twm has a menu to launch additional applications; left-click on the
desktop.  So, it should continue registering an x-window-manager
alternative.

I'm talking about window managers like metacity or mutter, which without
an associated desktop environment provide no way to launch applications
or even exit.

> I realize that nearly everyone uses a desktop environment these days, but
> it used to be very common to just launch a windows manager and then use
> ~/.xsession to launch some xterms, and I don't think we want to break that
> functionality unless something is actually broken now.  I'm sure someone
> is still doing this.  Last time I checked, startx relies on the
> x-window-manager alternative to figure out what to start, so removing that
> alternative would break such a setup.

That uses the Xsession mechanism (and specifically the
/etc/X11/Xsession.d/50x11-common_determine-startup script that I
mentioned above).  Keeping that from breaking was exactly my concern
here: launching an X session should never leave the user with no way to
launch applications or exit (other than switching to another VT).

Bug#838777: Policy 11.8.4 for x-window-manager needs update for freedesktop menus

2016-09-24 Thread Russ Allbery 
Josh Triplett  writes:

> Based on some conversations on #debian-devel on the purpose of
> x-window-manager (as launched by
> /etc/X11/Xsession.d/50x11-common_determine-startup), it seems like a
> window manager that just manages windows, and expects a separately
> launched menu/taskbar program or desktop environment to provide the
> ability for the user to launch programs or otherwise do anything useful,
> shouldn't register an x-window-manager alternative at all.  Otherwise,
> the user might end up staring at a desktop they can't interact with at
> all.

Er, this seems to imply that twm shouldn't register as x-window-manager,
which sounds wrong and isn't how Debian has ever worked.  Or am I
misunderstanding what you mean by "just manages windows"?

I realize that nearly everyone uses a desktop environment these days, but
it used to be very common to just launch a windows manager and then use
~/.xsession to launch some xterms, and I don't think we want to break that
functionality unless something is actually broken now.  I'm sure someone
is still doing this.  Last time I checked, startx relies on the
x-window-manager alternative to figure out what to start, so removing that
alternative would break such a setup.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)

Bug#838777: Policy 11.8.4 for x-window-manager needs update for freedesktop menus

2016-09-24 Thread Josh Triplett 
On Sat, Sep 24, 2016 at 11:44:25AM -0700, Josh Triplett wrote:
> Package: debian-policy
> Severity: normal
> 
> Policy 11.8.4 documents how to set the priority for an x-window-manager
> alternative.  The algorithm for doing so increases the priority for
> window managers supporting the Debian menu system, but doesn't say
> anything about the freedesktop menu system.  (And, for that matter, the
> algorithm seems to treat a window manager as a "session"; Policy should
> probably mention the x-session-manager alternative, and
> /usr/share/xsessions.)

Based on some conversations on #debian-devel on the purpose of
x-window-manager (as launched by
/etc/X11/Xsession.d/50x11-common_determine-startup), it seems like a
window manager that just manages windows, and expects a separately
launched menu/taskbar program or desktop environment to provide the
ability for the user to launch programs or otherwise do anything useful,
shouldn't register an x-window-manager alternative at all.  Otherwise,
the user might end up staring at a desktop they can't interact with at
all.

So, in that case, the window manager shouldn't register for
x-window-manager, and instead its associated environment or mechanism to
launch a full session should register an x-session-manager altenrative
(and install a /usr/share/xsessions/*.desktop file as well).

- Josh Triplett

Bug#838777: Policy 11.8.4 for x-window-manager needs update for freedesktop menus

2016-09-24 Thread Josh Triplett 
Package: debian-policy
Severity: normal

Policy 11.8.4 documents how to set the priority for an x-window-manager
alternative.  The algorithm for doing so increases the priority for
window managers supporting the Debian menu system, but doesn't say
anything about the freedesktop menu system.  (And, for that matter, the
algorithm seems to treat a window manager as a "session"; Policy should
probably mention the x-session-manager alternative, and
/usr/share/xsessions.)

-- System Information:
Debian Release: stretch/sid
  APT prefers unstable
  APT policy: (500, 'unstable'), (1, 'experimental')
Architecture: amd64 (x86_64)

Kernel: Linux 4.7.0-1-amd64 (SMP w/4 CPU cores)
Locale: LANG=C.UTF-8, LC_CTYPE=C.UTF-8 (charmap=UTF-8)
Shell: /bin/sh linked to /bin/dash
Init: systemd (via /run/systemd/system)