Bug#870078: libsane1 breaks all 3rd party scanner drivers

[Jörg Frings-Fürst]

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Hi,

after upload sane-backends 1.0.27-1 I close this bug.

CU
Jörg

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Bug#870078: libsane1 breaks all 3rd party scanner drivers

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

On 11/02/2017 10:40 AM, Alex ARNAUD wrote:

If we expect to make Debian and GNU/Linux universal we have to keep
that people don't want to buy a new hardware to switch from Windows
or Mac to GNU/Linux.
The regular user should be the target, not the hacker. Sane 1.0.27 should
work as 1.0.25 for the end user without any configuration changes because
if we respect x.y.z versioning this is a minor release.


I have thoroughly explained the reasoning behind the changes and what exactly
happened and why it happened. Could I therefore please ask you to just stop
give out your recommendations, this is really getting annoying.

Library transitions happen all the time and it's up the responsibility of
the downstream projects to act accordingly and rebuild their packages
if necessary.

And, no, this particular issue is not the deciding the factor which keeps
Linux back from its breakthrough on the PC desktop.

Please stop this, really!

Adrian

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Bug#870078: libsane1 breaks all 3rd party scanner drivers

[Alex ARNAUD]

Le 01/11/2017 à 21:30, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz a écrit :

It should be the responsibility of the end user to make sure to buy
hardware from a Linux-friendly manufacturer who is willing to update
their drivers accordingly.

Do you really want that Debian keeps down it's drive to improve quality
and reliability because Ubuntu user X bought a 50 Euro scanner from
some random Chinese manufacturer who cannot be bothered to update their
drivers every once a while?

I don't.


If we expect to make Debian and GNU/Linux universal we have to keep that 
people don't want to buy a new hardware to switch from Windows or Mac to 
GNU/Linux.
The regular user should be the target, not the hacker. Sane 1.0.27 
should work as 1.0.25 for the end user without any configuration changes 
because if we respect x.y.z versioning this is a minor release.


Best regards.
--
Alex ARNAUD
Visual-Impairment Project Manager
Hypra - "Humanizing technology"

Bug#870078: libsane1 breaks all 3rd party scanner drivers

[Jeremy Bicha]

On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 7:49 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
 wrote:
> On 11/02/2017 12:18 AM, Jeremy Bicha wrote:
> Again, changing library package names due to SO bumps happen all
> the time. I don't see why the libsane package should be any different
> from other library packages. Yes, there was no SO bump. But the
> library package name was not conforming to the Debian Policy either.

There are hundreds of libraries that don't follow "best practice"
naming in Debian and in this particular case, the decision to change
the library name clearly caused extra headache until we figured out a
workaround. My advice in the future is to do like the rest of the
Debian Project does and ignore this particular Lintian warning until
you actually need to change the library name, unless you are confident
that there aren't third parties who are using your library.

https://lintian.debian.org/tags/package-name-doesnt-match-sonames.html

> and now we
> in Debian have to start justifying how we are doing our job in Debian.

Hey, if you don't like having to repeatedly justify your rational
Debian decisions, maybe I'm getting tired of justifying my rational
Ubuntu decisions. My intent with today's email was just to point out
that Ubuntu's decision made the Debian package better because we fixed
multiple bugs in your packaging that in my opinion would probably
otherwise not have been fixed until after you uploaded to unstable

Thanks,
Jeremy Bicha

Bug#870078: libsane1 breaks all 3rd party scanner drivers

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

On 11/02/2017 12:18 AM, Jeremy Bicha wrote:
> I don't want to drag this out, since in my opinion this issue is
> resolved with comment 57. But I think it's worth noting:
> 1) There was no soname bump here. My understanding of Debian Policy
> and the Lintian warning is that it does not require renaming existing
> libraries just to match typical "best practice" naming. Y'all could
> have waited to rename the library until there was an actual upstream
> soname bump. (I think the versioned provides takes care of the problem
> this caused though so never mind now.)

The SO version of libsane is 1. It just makes sense to have the
library package name match the actual SO version:

glaubitz@ikarus:~$ dpkg -L libsane:amd64 |grep libsane.so
/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libsane.so.1.0.25
/usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libsane.so.1
glaubitz@ikarus:~$

Again, changing library package names due to SO bumps happen all
the time. I don't see why the libsane package should be any different
from other library packages. Yes, there was no SO bump. But the
library package name was not conforming to the Debian Policy either.

Should we also now accept bug reports against libpng because some
ancient binary-only software has been compiled against libpng12
and won't work on Debian sid anymore?

> 2) Please stop with the criticism of Ubuntu 17.10's early adoption of
> your sane-backends packaging. Several fixes for the 1.0.27 packaging
> were only identified by Ubuntu users and fixed by Ubuntu developers.
> In fact, I think the packaging is in good enough shape that you should
> consider requesting to start the unstable transition soon. I had a
> Debian Developer ask when sane-backends 1.0.27 was going to be in
> unstable since he needs the additional drivers it offers.

No, I'm sorry, I won't stop criticizing Ubuntu for such "stunts". As
Joerg and I mentioned several times before, it's called "experimental"
for a reason. This is the same non-sense that Ubuntu pulled with
Pulse-Audio and KDE 4.0 by delivering the software to their users
before it was actually ready to ship. I find it irresponsible to use
your average users as guinea pigs and both Pulse-Audio and KDE suffered
a lot of damage to their image because of these actions.

Joerg worked towards making his package more conforming to the Debian
Policy and he made sure to follow the proper mechanism for the library
transition. Then Ubuntu pulled the package effectively mid-transition
into their stable release - without sufficient testing - and now we
in Debian have to start justifying how we are doing our job in Debian.

Adrian

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Bug#870078: libsane1 breaks all 3rd party scanner drivers

[Jeremy Bicha]

On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 4:30 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
 wrote:
> On 11/01/2017 09:19 PM, Gunter Königsmann wrote:
>> When dealing with 3rd-party products any change in upstream sane or
>> debian might cause breaks, though.
>
> And? As I said, this happens all the time. Seriously.
>
> You are phrasing this as if renaming library packages due to
> an SO bump is an exception. It isn't.

I don't want to drag this out, since in my opinion this issue is
resolved with comment 57. But I think it's worth noting:
1) There was no soname bump here. My understanding of Debian Policy
and the Lintian warning is that it does not require renaming existing
libraries just to match typical "best practice" naming. Y'all could
have waited to rename the library until there was an actual upstream
soname bump. (I think the versioned provides takes care of the problem
this caused though so never mind now.)

2) Please stop with the criticism of Ubuntu 17.10's early adoption of
your sane-backends packaging. Several fixes for the 1.0.27 packaging
were only identified by Ubuntu users and fixed by Ubuntu developers.
In fact, I think the packaging is in good enough shape that you should
consider requesting to start the unstable transition soon. I had a
Debian Developer ask when sane-backends 1.0.27 was going to be in
unstable since he needs the additional drivers it offers.

Thanks,
Jeremy Bicha

Bug#870078: libsane1 breaks all 3rd party scanner drivers

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

On 11/01/2017 09:19 PM, Gunter Königsmann wrote:
> When dealing with 3rd-party products any change in upstream sane or
> debian might cause breaks, though.

And? As I said, this happens all the time. Seriously.

You are phrasing this as if renaming library packages due to
an SO bump is an exception. It isn't.

> And not every firm will repackage an binary-only driver for a device
> they no more sell => If it looks like such a thing might happen with
> a 300€ hardware I recently bought I *will* panick. And will be prepared
> re-consider whom to buy devices from, that is.

It should be the responsibility of the end user to make sure to buy
hardware from a Linux-friendly manufacturer who is willing to update
their drivers accordingly.

Do you really want that Debian keeps down it's drive to improve quality
and reliability because Ubuntu user X bought a 50 Euro scanner from
some random Chinese manufacturer who cannot be bothered to update their
drivers every once a while?

I don't.

Adrian

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Bug#870078: libsane1 breaks all 3rd party scanner drivers

[Gunter Königsmann]

> As I said, library transitions happen all the time. Debian's
responsibility
> lies within the limits of the Debian archive. We can not and we also don't
> want to be responsible for any *binary* packages outside the Debian
archive.
Debian cannot fix the rest of the world in case that it breaks - so this
might be the only way to go.

When dealing with 3rd-party products any change in upstream sane or
debian might cause breaks, though. And not every firm will repackage an
binary-only driver for a device they no more sell => If it looks like
such a thing might happen with a 300€ hardware I recently bought I
*will* panick. And will be prepared re-consider whom to buy devices
from, that is.

Kind regards,

   Gunter.

Bug#870078: libsane1 breaks all 3rd party scanner drivers

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

Hello Rolf!

There are obviously some misconceptions on the Ubuntu side, especially
among its users what exactly has happened here and why it happened.

First of all, it's not Debian's responsibility if Ubuntu as their downstream
pulls a package from the *experimental* distribution without making any
review of the actual changes to the code.

Packages in the experimental distribution are not intended for normal
users, they are solely intended for Debian Developers and other developers
for testing purposes.

The responsibility for this faux-pax lies on the Ubuntu side, not on
Debian's side. So, I would like to ask you to reconsider your criticism
regarding this issue.

On 11/01/2017 08:01 PM, Rolf Bensch wrote:
> Why have you renamed libsane to libsane1? Debian provides more effective
> mechanisms for versioning a package than renaming it.

This isn't about package version numbers, this is about ABI versions and
ABI versions of libraries *ARE* encoded in the package name as per Debian
Policy.

Quote:

"The run-time shared library must be placed in a package whose name changes 
whenever
 the SONAME of the shared library changes. This allows several versions of the 
shared
 library to be installed at the same time, allowing installation of the new 
version of
 the shared library without immediately breaking binaries that depend on the 
old version.
 Normally, the run-time shared library and its SONAME symlink should be placed 
in a package
 named librarynamesoversion, where soversion is the version number in the 
SONAME of the
 shared library. Alternatively, if it would be confusing to directly append 
soversion
 to libraryname (if, for example, libraryname itself ends in a number), you 
should use
 libraryname-soversion instead. [2]"

from: https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/#run-time-shared-libraries

The SO version was missing from the libsane package which clearly is a 
violation of
said section in the Debian Policy which is why Joerg fixed the issue. 
Furthermore,
he went through the proper process of starting a library transition, something
that is done several times through the Debian development process with various
libraries like libpng, libssl, libperl and so on every time we're working on a
new release. Library package names are *not* and have never been a constant.

> FYI, this also beaks my Ubuntu PPA
> (https://launchpad.net/~rolfbensch/+archive/ubuntu/sane-git), which I'm
> providing as an Ubuntu using SANE maintainer.

This is completely irrelevant to Debian. It is your responsibility to rebuild
your packages if a library transition occurs as there is no guarantee that
an ABI version of a library remains constant in the next Debian release.

As I said, library transitions happen all the time. Debian's responsibility
lies within the limits of the Debian archive. We can not and we also don't
want to be responsible for any *binary* packages outside the Debian archive.

If your packaging has been done according to the package guidelines of the
Debian Policy, then all you have to do to fix the issue is trigger a binary
NMU, i.e. a rebuild of your source packages against the new ABI version
and consequently library package name,

> Hope this helps.

I'm afraid it doesn't as you are shifting blame onto Debian maintainers
and trying to explain them how to do their job when they were actually
adhering to the Debian Policy and working towards improving the conformity
of the SANE package to said policy.

Thanks,
Adrian

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Bug#870078: libsane1 breaks all 3rd party scanner drivers

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

On 11/01/2017 08:21 PM, Rolf Bensch wrote:
> This isn't a good idea, because I'm building the ppa from SANE's daily
> git snapshots.
> 
> If you decided to rename libsane to libsane1 generally, I can change the
> name in my ppa.

Can you please take your Ubuntu discussions out of Debian.
This isn't a Debian issue. It's an Ubuntu problem.

Thanks,
Adrian

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Bug#870078: libsane1 breaks all 3rd party scanner drivers

[Rolf Bensch]

Am 01.11.2017 um 20:10 schrieb Jeremy Bicha:
> Just copy the proposed update libsane-backends
> 1.0.27-1~experimental2ubuntu2.1 to your PPA.

This isn't a good idea, because I'm building the ppa from SANE's daily
git snapshots.

If you decided to rename libsane to libsane1 generally, I can change the
name in my ppa.

Cheers,
Rolf

Bug#870078: libsane1 breaks all 3rd party scanner drivers

[Jeremy Bicha]

On Wed, Nov 1, 2017 at 3:01 PM, Rolf Bensch  wrote:
> FYI, this also beaks my Ubuntu PPA

Just copy the proposed update libsane-backends
1.0.27-1~experimental2ubuntu2.1 to your PPA.

Thanks,
Jeremy Bicha

Bug#870078: libsane1 breaks all 3rd party scanner drivers

[Rolf Bensch]

Hi All,

Why have you renamed libsane to libsane1? Debian provides more effective
mechanisms for versioning a package than renaming it.

FYI, this also beaks my Ubuntu PPA
(https://launchpad.net/~rolfbensch/+archive/ubuntu/sane-git), which I'm
providing as an Ubuntu using SANE maintainer.

Hope this helps.

Cheers,
Rolf

Bug#870078: libsane1 breaks all 3rd party scanner drivers

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

Hi Jeremy!

On 10/25/2017 05:10 AM, Jeremy Bicha wrote:
> Ok, with help from infinity and RAOF, this solution appears to work.
> You can keep the libsane1 package name and you don't have to add a
> transitional package.

Thanks a lot, we will incorporate that.

> 
> infinity strongly recommended the Conflicts instead of Breaks for this 
> situation.
> 
> https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2017/10/25/%23ubuntu-release.html

Adrian

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Bug#870078: libsane1 breaks all 3rd party scanner drivers

[Jeremy Bicha]

Control: tags -1 +patch

Ok, with help from infinity and RAOF, this solution appears to work. You
can keep the libsane1 package name and you don't have to add a transitional
package.

infinity strongly recommended the Conflicts instead of Breaks for this
situation.

https://irclogs.ubuntu.com/2017/10/25/%23ubuntu-release.html


--- a/debian/control2017-10-24 15:15:49 +
+++ b/debian/control2017-10-25 01:42:21 +
@@ -77,8 +77,9 @@
 Section: libs
 Architecture: any
 Multi-Arch: same
-Breaks: libsane (<< 1.0.27-1)
-Replaces: libsane (<< 1.0.27-1)
+Conflicts: libsane (<< 1.0.27-1~)
+Replaces: libsane (<< 1.0.27-1~)
+Provides: libsane (= ${binary:Version})
 Pre-Depends: ${misc:Pre-Depends}
 Depends:
  acl [linux-any],


Thanks,
Jeremy Bicha

Bug#870078: libsane1 breaks all 3rd party scanner drivers

[Gunter Königsmann]

On 22.10.2017 18:41, Jeremy Bicha wrote:
> On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 4:29 PM, Jeremy Bicha  wrote:
> > On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 7:44 PM, Jeremy Bicha  wrote:
> >> I am adding Provides: libsane to Ubuntu's libsane1 and I strongly
> >> encourage you to make this change in Debian also.
> >
> > Oops, the Provides didn't work. I'm guessing because the dependency is
> Or maybe we can add a transitional package from libsane to libsane1.
> pango1.0 did that.
That would at least make packages that want a minimum version work.

Bug#870078: libsane1 breaks all 3rd party scanner drivers

[Jeremy Bicha]

On Thu, Oct 19, 2017 at 4:29 PM, Jeremy Bicha  wrote:
> On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 7:44 PM, Jeremy Bicha  wrote:
>> I am adding Provides: libsane to Ubuntu's libsane1 and I strongly
>> encourage you to make this change in Debian also.
>
> Oops, the Provides didn't work. I'm guessing because the dependency is
> versioned.
>
> I don't see any benefit to renaming the libsane library package name,
> so please revert it to libsane. Add a lintian override if you want.

Or maybe we can add a transitional package from libsane to libsane1.
pango1.0 did that.

Thanks,
Jeremy Bicha

Bug#870078: libsane1 breaks all 3rd party scanner drivers

[Jeremy Bicha]

On Tue, Oct 17, 2017 at 7:44 PM, Jeremy Bicha  wrote:
> I am adding Provides: libsane to Ubuntu's libsane1 and I strongly
> encourage you to make this change in Debian also.

Oops, the Provides didn't work. I'm guessing because the dependency is
versioned.

I don't see any benefit to renaming the libsane library package name,
so please revert it to libsane. Add a lintian override if you want.

Thanks,
Jeremy Bicha

Bug#870078: libsane1 breaks all 3rd party scanner drivers

[Jeremy Bicha]

I am reopening this bug because I think the original reporter's
suggestion was right. The fact that he runs Ubuntu doesn't matter for
the bug that was reported.

Please see the Impact and Test Case I added to the description of
https://launchpad.net/bugs/1707352

I am adding Provides: libsane to Ubuntu's libsane1 and I strongly
encourage you to make this change in Debian also.

Thanks,
Jeremy Bicha

Bug#870078: libsane1 breaks all 3rd party scanner drivers

[Jörg Frings-Fürst]

Hello Gunter,

the version 1.0.27-1~experimental1ubuntu2 is a Ubuntu specific version.

They based on the Debian 1.0.27-1~experimental1 from the branch
experimental.

Quote from[1]:

Experimental is used for packages which are still being developed, and
with a high risk of breaking your system. It's used by developers who'd
like to study and test bleeding edge software. Users shouldn't be using
packages from there, because they can be dangerous and harmful even for
the most experienced people.

If Ubuntu uses packages from experimental this happens at your own
risk.

So I close this bug.

CU
Jörg


[1] https://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/debian-faq/ch-ftparchives.en.html

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Bug#870078: libsane1 breaks all 3rd party scanner drivers

[Gunter Königsmann]

Package: libsane1
Version: 1.0.27-1~experimental1ubuntu2
Severity: important

Dear Maintainer,

There are wishlist bugs already about individual packages no more
working after switching from libsane1 to libsane but I think the
situation is more grave than that: All 3rd-party scanner drivers that
are shipped in .deb packages depend on libsane. Renaming the package to
libsane1 without adding a "provides" breaks that dependency and it seems
like merely adding the "provides" does not get them into a working order
again. On my part both epson scanners I own and the
brother scanner are broken since the library has changed which leaves me
with no access to any scanner - and Ubuntu has pulled the libsane1 from
debian which means that ubuntu will havve the same problem, as well.