Bug#900928: deps

2023-04-13 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Quoting matthias.geiger1...@tutanota.de (2023-04-13 19:28:16)
> 13. Apr. 2023, 19:18 von jo...@jones.dk:
> > Quoting matthias.geiger1...@tutanota.de (2023-04-13 18:04:54)
> >> I won't do that for the rust crates (except binary ones) since that
> >> is the Rust Teams' policy.
> > [...]
> >> I will maintain the GTK stack within the rust team as ITP some more
> >> GTK-rs stuff. fwiw I continuously commented my progress here and in
> >> the debcargo-confs' TODO file.
> >>
> >
> > Ok, so your avoiding Debbugs to track ITPs is deliberate.
> >
> No, I do use debugs to track ITPs

I was referring to the packages you "have been constantly working on"
yet didn't appear in the header of this bug#900928.

> No one except you uses it to track rust library crates
[...]
> I really don't see the issue here.

Fine. I thought you saw an issue with recognition, and apologize for
having wasted your time with a collaboration practice that (according to
you) noone but me bothers doing.

Let's dial back to your original request before my ramblings:

Quoting matthias.geiger1...@tutanota.de (2023-03-14 11:39:30)
> I wanted to discuss fractal. [...] I have been constantly working on
> [deps]. [...] I have been constantly working on [more deps], too.
> [...] Since I also put in some effort I also would like to be included
> as uploader. I think this is fair since now 80% of the dependencies
> are covered.

When you work on, say, gtk+3.0, then you receive recognition for your
work in that package.  Not in e.g. gnome-control-center or firefox
despite both of those other packages depend on gtk+3.0 and thus benefit
from your contribution there.

Similarly, that you "have been constantly working on" a shitload of
dependencies for fractal does not grant uploader right/recognition
for fractal. Not because you are any lesser than me nor because of how I
choose to create packages nor because I am not member of the Rust team,
but because it would not be fair to do so.

I welcome collaboration. Both indirect ones like packaging of needed
dependencies, and direct ones like patches to packaging.

I shall gladly acknowledge contributions, fairly.

 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/
 * Sponsorship: https://ko-fi.com/drjones

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private

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Bug#900928: deps

2023-04-13 Thread matthias . geiger1024


13. Apr. 2023, 19:18 von jo...@jones.dk:

> Quoting matthias.geiger1...@tutanota.de (2023-04-13 18:04:54)
>
>> 13. Apr. 2023, 17:39 von jo...@jones.dk:
>> > Please consider using the Debian bugtracker to communicate "intents
>> > to package" by filing an ITP bugreport for each single upstream
>> > project that you work on packaging for Debian. 
>> >
>> I won't do that for the rust crates (except binary ones) since that is
>> the Rust Teams' policy.
>>
> [...]
>
>> I will maintain the GTK stack within the rust team as ITP some more
>> GTK-rs stuff. fwiw I continuously commented my progress here and in
>> the debcargo-confs' TODO file.
>>
>
> Ok, so your avoiding Debbugs to track ITPs is deliberate.
>
No, I do use debugs to track ITPs  (like this one, see comments above on my 
progress).
No one except you uses it to track rust library crates because the policy of 
the rust team states that. And I think most maintainers have better use of 
their little time to file 20+ ITPs for rust crates. ftpmasters are also ok with 
that, so I really don't see the issue here. And updating stacks with 60+ crates 
like GTK is way easier if it all is in one repo. 

I hoped to avoid this can of worms exactly because of that.

regards,


---
Matthias Geiger (werdahias)


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Bug#900928: deps

2023-04-13 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Quoting matthias.geiger1...@tutanota.de (2023-04-13 18:04:54)
> 13. Apr. 2023, 17:39 von jo...@jones.dk:
> > Please consider using the Debian bugtracker to communicate "intents
> > to package" by filing an ITP bugreport for each single upstream
> > project that you work on packaging for Debian.  
> >
> I won't do that for the rust crates (except binary ones) since that is
> the Rust Teams' policy.
[...]
> I will maintain the GTK stack within the rust team as ITP some more
> GTK-rs stuff. fwiw I continuously commented my progress here and in
> the debcargo-confs' TODO file.

Ok, so your avoiding Debbugs to track ITPs is deliberate.

I shall try to remember that, to not waste more time for both of us.

 - Jonas

-- 
 * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist & Internet-arkitekt
 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/
 * Sponsorship: https://ko-fi.com/drjones

 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private



Bug#900928: deps

2023-04-13 Thread matthias . geiger1024

13. Apr. 2023, 17:39 von jo...@jones.dk:

>
> I appreciate your work on getting dependent Rust crates packaged for
> Debian.
>
thanks.

> Personally I dislike the all-crates-in-one-git approach practiced in the
> Rust team, and since the team has made it a "must" to do so within the
> team I am not in that team at all.
>
that's what I hoped to avoid.

> Please consider using the Debian bugtracker to communicate "intents to
> package" by filing an ITP bugreport for each single upstream project
> that you work on packaging for Debian.  
>
I won't do that for the rust crates (except binary ones) since that is the Rust 
Teams' policy. You choose not to do so. While I agree that a big monorepo  is 
not ideal the updating process is way more streamlined and that much crates 
can't all be maintained each in a seperate repo. That'd be madness.

>
> I don't use the GNOME desktop myself, and do not maintain a range of
> packages tightly related to GNOME, so for me it would be more a burden
> to engage in yet another team with maybe-peculiar-to-me policies.
>
they use a pretty standardized workflow (DEP 14). just a thought. 

> I totally get that.
>
> It pains me that when I ask about your work, you point me to what I
> perceive as a teamwork with little visibility of your efforts in it.
>
well it's always teamwork I guess;  I can claim the GTK update as my efforts. 

> Personally I suspect that some of the pain you have gone through in
> getting those packages in shape is due to the Rust team "streamlining",
> and I fear that the current blocker of bug#1017905 is a sign of that.
>
No. This is (while indirectly caused by me) not an issue imo, rather ftpmasters 
insisting the GTK-rs code generator needs to be shipped. (Note that this was 
fine before for some time) See the linked thread on the bug.


> What I think is best for Debian is that we collaborate more in Debian.
>
Agreed.

>
> In Debian as a whole, not (only) within teams.
>
> I dislike several things in the Rust team, and I suspect that
> bug#1017905 exists because of the Rust team insisting that Debian
> packaging should mimic upstream distribution design.  
>
See above.

> You apparently work in the Rust team.  If it works for you, then great -
> I am not saying you should leave.  But I am saying that I am torn
> between wanting to collaborate and then having strong opinions myself
> that arguably hinders collaboration.
>
I will maintain the GTK stack within the rust team as ITP some more GTK-rs 
stuff. fwiw I continuously commented my progress here and in the 
debcargo-confs' TODO file.

Regards,
Matthias Geiger

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Bug#900928: deps

2023-04-13 Thread Jonas Smedegaard
Hi Matthias,

[quoting previous private post to help establish context]

Quoting matthias.geiger1...@tutanota.de (2023-03-14 11:39:30)
> I wanted to discuss fractal. I also have a somewhat related interest to it. I 
> have been constantly working on it. My wip-gtk branch covers most of its 
> missing dependencies, so the big chunks missing are the matrix sdk and 
> comrak. I have been constantly working on those, too. I'd like fractal to be 
> maintained within the GNOME team since 1) it uses the GTK stack and 2) is 
> also a circle app. Since I also put in some effort I also would like to be 
> included as uploader. I think this is fair since now 80% of the dependencies 
> are covered.

Quoting matthias.geiger1...@tutanota.de (2023-04-13 14:57:41)
> > Is your work available publicly somewhere?
> >
> Yes. The matrix-sdk depends mainly on ruma which is 80% packaged in the 
> debcargo-conf repo.
> The GTK-rs update is visible here: 
> https://salsa.debian.org/rust-team/debcargo-conf/-/merge_requests/463 and 
> most of the *debs are here: 
> https://salsa.debian.org/werdahias/obfuscate-wip/-/tree/debs?ref_type=heads 
> 
> Stuff still missing: ashpd, oo7 and matrix-sdk. The former two are GTK 
> related and I will package them as soon as the GTK update gets uploaded 
> because I need them anyway. the latter needs ruma which I have constantly 
> been working on.
> comrak isn't needed anymore apparently.

Ah, makes sense now.  I thought you meant that you mean a wip-gtk branch
of the fractal packaging - i.e. this git repo:
https://salsa.debian.org/matrix-team/fractal

I appreciate your work on getting dependent Rust crates packaged for
Debian.

Personally I dislike the all-crates-in-one-git approach practiced in the
Rust team, and since the team has made it a "must" to do so within the
team I am not in that team at all.

Please consider using the Debian bugtracker to communicate "intents to
package" by filing an ITP bugreport for each single upstream project
that you work on packaging for Debian.  That enables us to keep track of
efforts targeted but not yet included formally into Debian - i.e. the
very purpose of that class of bugreports in the Debian bugtracker.

> wrt maintaining: I thought all GNOME circle apps should be also maintained 
> within the GNOME team, maybe even in a separate workspace, but that is just 
> my opinion (especially since I maintain three of those programs that way). 
> You're free to maintain it however you see fit, I didn't want to impose.

There are benefits of streamlining packaging within a team, but there
are also drawbacks of "optimizations" done within single teams.  There
is a real risk that packages may bitrot when maintained by a team with a
too large focus, as single packages at the edge of their focus may not
get adequate attention.

Obviously a package may lack attention *anywhere - we do not magically
get more hands by splitting the task into more smaller buckets.  But in
a smaller team mistreated packages has arguably a higher chance of
getting noticed - either by the team itself or by fellow Debian devopers
outside of the team or by users.

I mean, the task list for the security team is several pages long:
https://udd.debian.org/dmd/?team%2Bpkg-security%40tracker.debian.org#todo

...but that pales in comparison with the task list for the python team:
https://udd.debian.org/dmd.cgi?email1=team%2Bpython%40tracker.debian.org

There is no single obvious way to group packaging efforts.

Some teams streamline for one build systems (e.g. Rust team).  Some
teams streamline for one programming language, across build systems
(e.g. Perl, Java, and Python teams).  Some teams streamline for one
widget toolkit use, across languages (e.g. the GNOME team).  Some teams
streamline for one desktop environment, across widget toolkits (e.g.
LXQT team)

Most packaging teams at https://wiki.debian.org/Teams, however, have a
scope of concrete tools or a smaller collection of interrelated tools.

The GNOME team likely has a team policy that optimized towards projects
closely related to the GNOME core infrastructure, at the expense of
packages more loosely related to that.  That does not mean that all
projects close to GNOME is better off maintained by that team, only that
maintenance of the projects there benefits from that optimization - but
the backside is that maintainers are then expected to align with the
policy.

I don't use the GNOME desktop myself, and do not maintain a range of
packages tightly related to GNOME, so for me it would be more a burden
to engage in yet another team with maybe-peculiar-to-me policies.

> Regarding the "credit": also maybe came off wrong. My POV: I made a list of 
> all the fractal deps and slowly started working those off. I put in a lot of 
> effort to get the GTK-rs update underway and the rest of the fractal stuff 
> like ruma. I guess that resulted in me thinking "Well, I do want some of the 
> credit for working on fractal!" And I think while that may

Bug#900928: deps

2023-04-13 Thread matthias . geiger1024
Hi Jonas,



> Is your work available publicly somewhere?
>
Yes. The matrix-sdk depends mainly on ruma which is 80% packaged in the 
debcargo-conf repo.
The GTK-rs update is visible here: 
https://salsa.debian.org/rust-team/debcargo-conf/-/merge_requests/463 and most 
of the *debs are here: 
https://salsa.debian.org/werdahias/obfuscate-wip/-/tree/debs?ref_type=heads 

Stuff still missing: ashpd, oo7 and matrix-sdk. The former two are GTK related 
and I will package them as soon as the GTK update gets uploaded because I need 
them anyway. the latter needs ruma which I have constantly been working on.
comrak isn't needed anymore apparently.

wrt maintaining: I thought all GNOME circle apps should be also maintained 
within the GNOME team, maybe even in a separate workspace, but that is just my 
opinion (especially since I maintain three of those programs that way). You're 
free to maintain it however you see fit, I didn't want to impose.

Regarding the "credit": also maybe came off wrong. My POV: I made a list of all 
the fractal deps and slowly started working those off. I put in a lot of effort 
to get the GTK-rs update underway and the rest of the fractal stuff like ruma. 
I guess that resulted in me thinking "Well, I do want some of the credit for 
working on fractal!" And I think while that may seem selfish I still deserve 
that as I put in constant work towaord the goal of packaging fractal. It's not 
my intention to come off that way but I think you get my point.

Honestly: Feel free to do whatever you think best for debian. The GTK stack 
will land in trixie and then it's straightforward to finish packaging. Please 
don't interfere with a) the gtk stack and b) the rest of the ruma stack,
I kinda don't care about the rest. (not trying to start a side discussion which 
rust packaging is better; if I have an overview for both stacks that makes 
things easier)

Sorry for a bit of an rant and the wall of text,

I hope this clears things up.

regards,

---
Matthias Geiger (werdahias)

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wqW4Nw54yZ8zaJIo

Bug#900928: deps

2023-03-14 Thread matthias . geiger1024
I packaged all gtk releated deps on my local branch (except ashpd and oo7). 
This is a huge chunk out of the missing crates.
comrak is apparently not needed anymore for fractal. this leaves some minor 
crates and matrix-sdk/ruma .
I will continue to work towards the remaining deps. 

CC jonas: I strongly suggest maintaining fractal within the GNOME team since 
it's a Circle App.

regards,
---
Matthias Geiger (werdahias)
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