Bug#908500: cups-browsed: Please consider making cups-browsed a Suggests:
On Thu 13 Dec 2018 at 20:04:31 +0100, Till Kamppeter wrote: [...] > To solve all the problems with the print dialogs I have started the Common > Print Dialog Backends project in 2017. If Debian adopts it we will at some > time really be able to work without cups-browsed. > > See > > https://github.com/OpenPrinting/cpdb-libs > https://github.com/OpenPrinting/cpdb-backend-cups > https://github.com/OpenPrinting/cpdb-backend-gcp > https://github.com/OpenPrinting/cpdb-backend-file > > and > > https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=911335 > https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=911340 > https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=911342 > https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=911345 > > These will centralize the communication with the print systems so that the > print dialogs do not need to do this and do not need to be adapted to every > change in print technology. A CPD certainly looks like a good way forward. Meanwhile, I'll record what I observe as the present situation with print dialogs using GTK3 (libgtk-3-0), Qt (libqt5printsupport5 ) and LibreOffice. Firefox 102.1.0esr -- 1. Opening "Print using the system dialog..." sees the network printers enumerated. 2. Selecting an entry leads to the formation of a temporary queue and the appearance of printer attributes in the dialog. 3. While the dialog is open, the temporary queue is restablished every minute, as shown by 'lpstat -a'. 4. After printing, the temporary queue takes about a minute to disappear. 5. Verdict: 10/10. Okular 4:22.04.3-1 -- 1. Opening the print dialog sees the network printers enumerated. 2. Selecting an entry does not lead to the formation of a temporary queue. 3. Printer attributes do not appear in the dialog. Under Options/Options Duplex-capableprinters are not recorded as such and Print Quality is absent from Properties/Advanced (the tab is greyed out). 4. Print and the printer attributes become available via the formation of a temporary queue. But re-open the dialog within a minute to gain access to the queue! 5. Verdict: 1/10. Libreoffice 1:7.4.0~rc3-1 - 1. Opening the print dialog sees the network printers enumerated. 2. Selecting an entry does not lead to the formation of a temporary queue. 3. Printer attributes do not appear in the dialog. Page sizes bear little relationship to reality, there is a pretend option for printing in duplex and Print Qualty is nowhere to be seen. 4. Print and the printer attributes become available via the formation of a temporary queue that lasts a minute. But a twist on Qt! Attributs are kept in memory and only disappear when Libreoffice is closed. 5. Verdict: 3/10 (for ingenuity). That's on Debian. Maybe things are different elsewhere. Cheers, Brian.
Bug#908500: cups-browsed: Please consider making cups-browsed a Suggests:
On 13/12/2018 19:45, Brian Potkin wrote: On Mon 22 Oct 2018 at 08:54:52 +0200, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote: Control: reopen -1 Control: reassign -1 cups-daemon 2.2.8-5 Control: retitle -1 cups-daemon: Please consider making cups-browsed a Suggests Control: affects -1 +cups-browsed Le dimanche, 21 octobre 2018, 21.21:13 h CEST Debian BTS a écrit : On Mon 10 Sep 2018 at 15:16:44 +0100, Brian Potkin wrote: Package: cups-browsed Version: 1.21.2-1 Severity: wishlist With the introduction of cups 1.6.x the situation in respect to printing to remote print queues and printers would have been dire without the creation of cups-browsed. However, cups 2.2.4 and later has the ability (CUPS Issue #4993) to enumerate queues and printers in print dialogs and to auto-create a temporary print queue. This is used by applications having the Qt dialog and printing from the command line, although the GTK dialog still does its own thing. cups-browsed is installed by default because cups-daemon (quite rightly) recommends it. With the changed situation in CUPS and applications it would appear that cups-browsed has less relevance with regard to printer and print queue discovery and management. The Recommends field lists packages that would be found with the cups package because there is a strong dependency between it and cups-browsed. cups-browsed would still enhance cups if changed to a Suggests:. The installation of cups-browsed almost as a matter of course on many buster systems also masks bugs in CUPS and applications, as it will take over the management of queues/printers. A small example is CUPS Issue #5045. Another example is with okular. For me, it will not print to a temporary queue; with a local cups-browsed queue it will. This would probably pass unnoticed as things stand now. The resounding silence is an indication of the quality of this report. It was probably a naff idea. Closing. I disagree. Although I haven't interacted on the bug, your report sparkled some thoughts, and I had its proper handling on my "to spend some energy on later" list. In the meantime, cups-filters started to FTBFS in unstable; a fix was urgent and I spent the minimal amount of energy to solve that issue. But demoting the cups-daemon ⇒ cups-browsed relationship from a Recommends to a Suggests is something we should consider, and your argumentation makes sense to me. @Till: any opinion? I'll argue against myself by describing how I see the GUI apps handling printing. Apologies in advance for misinformation or misinterpretation in the testing process. 1. cups-browsed is needed by the GTK print dialog for printing to IPP printers (#916267). 2. At present, Qt based apps do not print to remote print queues and IPP printers without cups-browsed (#911702). 3. The native print dialog of the chromium browser enumerates queues (with the help of CUPS) but will not print to them. 4. Only LibreOffice appears to operate in a sane way by promoting printing to any remote queue or IPP printer without cups-browsed. Sending CUPS semi-naked into the world of buster doesn't look like a good idea. To solve all the problems with the print dialogs I have started the Common Print Dialog Backends project in 2017. If Debian adopts it we will at some time really be able to work without cups-browsed. See https://github.com/OpenPrinting/cpdb-libs https://github.com/OpenPrinting/cpdb-backend-cups https://github.com/OpenPrinting/cpdb-backend-gcp https://github.com/OpenPrinting/cpdb-backend-file and https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=911335 https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=911340 https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=911342 https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=911345 These will centralize the communication with the print systems so that the print dialogs do not need to do this and do not need to be adapted to every change in print technology. Till
Bug#908500: cups-browsed: Please consider making cups-browsed a Suggests:
On Mon 22 Oct 2018 at 08:54:52 +0200, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote: > Control: reopen -1 > Control: reassign -1 cups-daemon 2.2.8-5 > Control: retitle -1 cups-daemon: Please consider making cups-browsed a > Suggests > Control: affects -1 +cups-browsed > > Le dimanche, 21 octobre 2018, 21.21:13 h CEST Debian BTS a écrit : > > On Mon 10 Sep 2018 at 15:16:44 +0100, Brian Potkin wrote: > > > Package: cups-browsed > > > Version: 1.21.2-1 > > > Severity: wishlist > > > > > > > > > With the introduction of cups 1.6.x the situation in respect to printing > > > to remote print queues and printers would have been dire without the > > > creation of cups-browsed. However, cups 2.2.4 and later has the ability > > > (CUPS Issue #4993) to enumerate queues and printers in print dialogs and > > > to auto-create a temporary print queue. This is used by applications > > > having the Qt dialog and printing from the command line, although the > > > GTK dialog still does its own thing. > > > > > > cups-browsed is installed by default because cups-daemon (quite rightly) > > > recommends it. With the changed situation in CUPS and applications it > > > would appear that cups-browsed has less relevance with regard to printer > > > and print queue discovery and management. The Recommends field lists > > > packages that would be found with the cups package because there is a > > > strong dependency between it and cups-browsed. cups-browsed would still > > > enhance cups if changed to a Suggests:. > > > > > > The installation of cups-browsed almost as a matter of course on many > > > buster systems also masks bugs in CUPS and applications, as it will take > > > over the management of queues/printers. A small example is CUPS Issue > > > #5045. Another example is with okular. For me, it will not print to a > > > temporary queue; with a local cups-browsed queue it will. This would > > > probably pass unnoticed as things stand now. > > > > The resounding silence is an indication of the quality of this report. > > It was probably a naff idea. Closing. > > I disagree. Although I haven't interacted on the bug, your report sparkled > some thoughts, and I had its proper handling on my "to spend some energy on > later" list. In the meantime, cups-filters started to FTBFS in unstable; a > fix was urgent and I spent the minimal amount of energy to solve that issue. > > But demoting the cups-daemon ⇒ cups-browsed relationship from a Recommends to > a Suggests is something we should consider, and your argumentation makes sense > to me. > > @Till: any opinion? I'll argue against myself by describing how I see the GUI apps handling printing. Apologies in advance for misinformation or misinterpretation in the testing process. 1. cups-browsed is needed by the GTK print dialog for printing to IPP printers (#916267). 2. At present, Qt based apps do not print to remote print queues and IPP printers without cups-browsed (#911702). 3. The native print dialog of the chromium browser enumerates queues (with the help of CUPS) but will not print to them. 4. Only LibreOffice appears to operate in a sane way by promoting printing to any remote queue or IPP printer without cups-browsed. Sending CUPS semi-naked into the world of buster doesn't look like a good idea. Regards, Brian.
Bug#908500: cups-browsed: Please consider making cups-browsed a Suggests:
On Fri 14 Sep 2018 at 20:29:22 +0100, Brian Potkin wrote: > eOn Mon 10 Sep 2018 at 15:16:44 +0100, Brian Potkin wrote: > > > Package: cups-browsed > > Version: 1.21.2-1 > > Severity: wishlist > > > > > > With the introduction of cups 1.6.x the situation in respect to printing > > to remote print queues and printers would have been dire without the > > creation of cups-browsed. However, cups 2.2.4 and later has the ability > > (CUPS Issue #4993) to enumerate queues and printers in print dialogs and > > to auto-create a temporary print queue. This is used by applications > > having the Qt dialog and printing from the command line, although the > > GTK dialog still does its own thing. > > Enumeration of queues/printers in GTK apps depends neither on CUPS nor > cups-browsed. A user printing only from GTK apps gains nothing in basic > printing terms from cups-browsed, even if the cups service is operative. > > > cups-browsed is installed by default because cups-daemon (quite rightly) > > recommends it. With the changed situation in CUPS and applications it > > would appear that cups-browsed has less relevance with regard to printer > > and print queue discovery and management. The Recommends field lists > > packages that would be found with the cups package because there is a > > strong dependency between it and cups-browsed. cups-browsed would still > > enhance cups if changed to a Suggests:. > > A rough characterisation of a recommended package: OMG! cups-browsed > isn't on the system; I cannot do these fundamental and useful things. > > "fundamental" and "useful" are arguable, of course, but the ability > of cups-browsed to alter what a GTK app shows would be under the > heading of "Enhances". > > > The installation of cups-browsed almost as a matter of course on many > > buster systems also masks bugs in CUPS and applications, as it will take > > over the management of queues/printers. A small example is CUPS Issue > > #5045. Another example is with okular. For me, it will not print to a > > temporary queue; with a local cups-browsed queue it will. This would > > probably pass unnoticed as things stand now. > > A compromise. Reduce cups-browsed to a Suggests: from now until nearly > the end of the freeze. Give CUPS a better chance to show what it is > capable of without cups-browsed. Return cups-browsed to a Recommends: > before the freeze end if it is indicated. As it stands at present, CUPS > is crippled. > > I suppose a major consideration for Debian 10 is to consider what > harm not having cups-browsed as a Recommends: does; it is basically > a printer setup utility like s.c.p. Nobody gets upset when that is > not automatically on the system. From https://www.debian.org/doc/debian-policy/ch-relationships.html > Recommends > This declares a strong, but not absolute, dependency. > > The Recommends field should list packages that would be found > together with this one in all but unusual installations Upstream says at http://ftp.pwg.org/pub/pwg/liaison/openprinting/minutes/OP-Minutes-20170606.htm > - cups-browsed development will continue, as an add-on for more sophisticated configurations, especially in enterprise networks. > - cups-browsed will provide the following enhancements against a pure CUPS/print dialog setup: > o Legacy CUPS server (1.5.x and older) interoperability > o Interoperability with old print dialogs (which do not use cupsEnumDests() and new CUPS API) > o Load balancing of clustered remote CUPS queues > o Support for legacy (IPP 1.x) IPP network printers > o Support for new driverless printing technologies not yet supported by CUPS (like PCLm) > o Fine-grained filtering of which remote printers are available I'd suggest the first four objectives do not promote cups-browsed being a strong dependency. The last one appears to be unworkable with QT apps and Libreoffice.
Bug#908500: cups-browsed: Please consider making cups-browsed a Suggests:
eOn Mon 10 Sep 2018 at 15:16:44 +0100, Brian Potkin wrote: > Package: cups-browsed > Version: 1.21.2-1 > Severity: wishlist > > > With the introduction of cups 1.6.x the situation in respect to printing > to remote print queues and printers would have been dire without the > creation of cups-browsed. However, cups 2.2.4 and later has the ability > (CUPS Issue #4993) to enumerate queues and printers in print dialogs and > to auto-create a temporary print queue. This is used by applications > having the Qt dialog and printing from the command line, although the > GTK dialog still does its own thing. Enumeration of queues/printers in GTK apps depends neither on CUPS nor cups-browsed. A user printing only from GTK apps gains nothing in basic printing terms from cups-browsed, even if the cups service is operative. > cups-browsed is installed by default because cups-daemon (quite rightly) > recommends it. With the changed situation in CUPS and applications it > would appear that cups-browsed has less relevance with regard to printer > and print queue discovery and management. The Recommends field lists > packages that would be found with the cups package because there is a > strong dependency between it and cups-browsed. cups-browsed would still > enhance cups if changed to a Suggests:. A rough characterisation of a recommended package: OMG! cups-browsed isn't on the system; I cannot do these fundamental and useful things. "fundamental" and "useful" are arguable, of course, but the ability of cups-browsed to alter what a GTK app shows would be under the heading of "Enhances". > The installation of cups-browsed almost as a matter of course on many > buster systems also masks bugs in CUPS and applications, as it will take > over the management of queues/printers. A small example is CUPS Issue > #5045. Another example is with okular. For me, it will not print to a > temporary queue; with a local cups-browsed queue it will. This would > probably pass unnoticed as things stand now. A compromise. Reduce cups-browsed to a Suggests: from now until nearly the end of the freeze. Give CUPS a better chance to show what it is capable of without cups-browsed. Return cups-browsed to a Recommends: before the freeze end if it is indicated. As it stands at present, CUPS is crippled. I suppose a major consideration for Debian 10 is to consider what harm not having cups-browsed as a Recommends: does; it is basically a printer setup utility like s.c.p. Nobody gets upset when that is not automatically on the system. Regards, Brian.
Bug#908500: cups-browsed: Please consider making cups-browsed a Suggests:
Package: cups-browsed Version: 1.21.2-1 Severity: wishlist With the introduction of cups 1.6.x the situation in respect to printing to remote print queues and printers would have been dire without the creation of cups-browsed. However, cups 2.2.4 and later has the ability (CUPS Issue #4993) to enumerate queues and printers in print dialogs and to auto-create a temporary print queue. This is used by applications having the Qt dialog and printing from the command line, although the GTK dialog still does its own thing. cups-browsed is installed by default because cups-daemon (quite rightly) recommends it. With the changed situation in CUPS and applications it would appear that cups-browsed has less relevance with regard to printer and print queue discovery and management. The Recommends field lists packages that would be found with the cups package because there is a strong dependency between it and cups-browsed. cups-browsed would still enhance cups if changed to a Suggests:. The installation of cups-browsed almost as a matter of course on many buster systems also masks bugs in CUPS and applications, as it will take over the management of queues/printers. A small example is CUPS Issue #5045. Another example is with okular. For me, it will not print to a temporary queue; with a local cups-browsed queue it will. This would probably pass unnoticed as things stand now. Regards, Brian.
