Bug#829701: mediawiki: nōn-DFSG-free files in package

[Kunal Mehta]

severity 829701 minor
block 829701 by 760306
thanks

On 07/08/2016 02:34 AM, Thorsten Glaser wrote:
> On Fri, 8 Jul 2016, Faidon Liambotis wrote:
>> On Wed, Jul 06, 2016 at 12:21:36PM +0200, Thorsten Glaser wrote:
>>> Let me quote:
>>>You are authorized to use our trademarks subject to this Trademark 
>>> Policy, and only on the further
>>>condition that you download images of the trademarks directly from our 
>>> [35]website. You are not
>>>
>>> Your packaging of Mediawiki does not do that. Users of your packaging
>>> do not do that. That alone is grounds for unfreeness.
>>
>> Well, first of all, "freeness" and "free software" are terms that apply
>> to copyright law and licenses, as is the DFSG for that matter. There is
>> no such thing as a "free" or "non-free" trademark license — neither
>> Debian nor the FL/OSS community at large have made any such definitions.
> 
> Independent of that, shipping the file as-is violates their trademark
> policy.
> 
>> 
> 
>> I don't interpret that clause like you do, but I'd be happy regardless
>> to raise this with Wikimedia's legal team.

Thorsten, I also do not interpret the clause as you do. Upstream
currently believes they are okay to distribute (by virtue of
distributing them), and I agree with that position.

I have also contacted the Wikimedia Foundation legal team for further
clarification on the matter. Barring a comment from them or the
ftp-masters, I plan on keeping the files in the MediaWiki package.

-- Kunal

Processed: Re: Bug#829701: mediawiki: nōn-DFSG-free files in package

[Debian Bug Tracking System]

Processing commands for cont...@bugs.debian.org:

> severity 829701 minor
Bug #829701 [mediawiki] mediawiki: nōn-DFSG-free files in package
Severity set to 'minor' from 'serious'
> block 829701 by 760306
Bug #829701 [mediawiki] mediawiki: nōn-DFSG-free files in package
829701 was not blocked by any bugs.
829701 was not blocking any bugs.
Added blocking bug(s) of 829701: 760306
> thanks
Stopping processing here.

Please contact me if you need assistance.
-- 
829701: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=829701
Debian Bug Tracking System
Contact ow...@bugs.debian.org with problems

Bug#829701: mediawiki: nōn-DFSG-free files in package

[Thorsten Glaser]

severity 829701 serious
thanks
this is still a legal issue

On Fri, 8 Jul 2016, Faidon Liambotis wrote:
> On Wed, Jul 06, 2016 at 12:21:36PM +0200, Thorsten Glaser wrote:
> > > Are there any other discussions about this where others agree with your
> > > interpretation about this? #760306 is still waiting for a comment from
> > > the ftp masters.
> > 
> > Barring a comment from ftpmasters you should err on the safe side.
> 
> So in the case of doubt and without any comment from ftp-masters, one
> should ignore the opinion of their upstream, which includes the opinions
> of a fully-staffed trained legal team of a free-software minded
> organization such as the Wikimedia Foundation -- or, for that matter,
> the intentions of the trademark holder which in this case is also a
> free-culture minded organization (Creative Commons)? I wholeheartedly
> disagree with that statement.

Exactly. I’m the previous Mediawiki maintainer, and I removed those
files with a reason. I also talked to Mediawiki upstream, and they
said they indeed do recognise this as problem and wanted to take it
to their contact at CC.

Do note that the status of CC as a “free-culture minded organization”
is questionable considering they still promote nōn-free licences
instead of renaming them to, say, “Restricted Commons” when they had
the chance (i.e. for their 4.0 release).

Independent of that, the trademark exists, and the terms for even just
using the mark in question (such as the circled “CC”) are onerous and
most certainly non-free.

> Don't get me wrong -- I think it's good to raise those questions and
> clarify licenses and challengfe the status quo, but I think it would
> demonstrate arrogance to start stripping files like that or claim that
> the CC logos are unfree.

No, just correctness, plus it’s a regression against previous versions
of Mediawiki packaging.

> > Let me quote:
> >You are authorized to use our trademarks subject to this Trademark 
> > Policy, and only on the further
> >condition that you download images of the trademarks directly from our 
> > [35]website. You are not
> > 
> > Your packaging of Mediawiki does not do that. Users of your packaging
> > do not do that. That alone is grounds for unfreeness.
> 
> Well, first of all, "freeness" and "free software" are terms that apply
> to copyright law and licenses, as is the DFSG for that matter. There is
> no such thing as a "free" or "non-free" trademark license — neither
> Debian nor the FL/OSS community at large have made any such definitions.

Independent of that, shipping the file as-is violates their trademark
policy.

> You /could/ argue that because of a trademark policy (e.g. that clause
> above), Debian does not have the right to distribute the work and thus

… precisely.

> violates trademark law by doing so. That would apply to other entities
> distributing those particular logos, such as, I dunno, everyone on the
> Internet, including Debian via a bunch of other packages in the archive

“Everyone uses Microsoft Windows.”

The “everyone else is doing it” argument is so old it’s mouldy. And it
s̲t̲i̲l̲l̲ does not work.

> I don't interpret that clause like you do, but I'd be happy regardless
> to raise this with Wikimedia's legal team. (I am a Wikimedia Foundation
> staff member

OK, please do so again and/or prod the people who already did so, see:
http://lists.alioth.debian.org/pipermail/pkg-mediawiki-devel/2013-June/002649.html

>, although my comments here are not on behalf of the
> Foundation and are done on my personal capacity as a Debian Developer
> and interested user).

Understood.

> On the other bug report you mentioned that you were in contact with
> someone from the Foundation's legal team. Could you perhaps let us know
> who you were previously in contact with so that we can continue that
> conversation rather than start it from the beginning?

I’m not currently in contact with any MW/WM/WMF people, but the mailing
list archive post I linked above contains both references to people and
revisions (“I noted on r66559 its license as a problem”).

HTH & HAND,
//mirabilos
-- 
tarent solutions GmbH
Rochusstraße 2-4, D-53123 Bonn • http://www.tarent.de/
Tel: +49 228 54881-393 • Fax: +49 228 54881-235
HRB 5168 (AG Bonn) • USt-ID (VAT): DE122264941
Geschäftsführer: Dr. Stefan Barth, Kai Ebenrett, Boris Esser, Alexander Steeg

Processed: Re: Bug#829701: mediawiki: nōn-DFSG-free files in package

[Debian Bug Tracking System]

Processing commands for cont...@bugs.debian.org:

> severity 829701 serious
Bug #829701 [mediawiki] mediawiki: nōn-DFSG-free files in package
Ignoring request to change severity of Bug 829701 to the same value.
> thanks
Stopping processing here.

Please contact me if you need assistance.
-- 
829701: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=829701
Debian Bug Tracking System
Contact ow...@bugs.debian.org with problems

Bug#829701: mediawiki: nōn-DFSG-free files in package

[Faidon Liambotis]

severity 829701 minor
thanks

On Wed, Jul 06, 2016 at 12:21:36PM +0200, Thorsten Glaser wrote:
> > Are there any other discussions about this where others agree with your
> > interpretation about this? #760306 is still waiting for a comment from
> > the ftp masters.
> 
> Barring a comment from ftpmasters you should err on the safe side.

So in the case of doubt and without any comment from ftp-masters, one
should ignore the opinion of their upstream, which includes the opinions
of a fully-staffed trained legal team of a free-software minded
organization such as the Wikimedia Foundation -- or, for that matter,
the intentions of the trademark holder which in this case is also a
free-culture minded organization (Creative Commons)? I wholeheartedly
disagree with that statement.

Don't get me wrong -- I think it's good to raise those questions and
clarify licenses and challengfe the status quo, but I think it would
demonstrate arrogance to start stripping files like that or claim that
the CC logos are unfree.

> Let me quote:
>You are authorized to use our trademarks subject to this Trademark Policy, 
> and only on the further
>condition that you download images of the trademarks directly from our 
> [35]website. You are not
> 
> Your packaging of Mediawiki does not do that. Users of your packaging
> do not do that. That alone is grounds for unfreeness.

Well, first of all, "freeness" and "free software" are terms that apply
to copyright law and licenses, as is the DFSG for that matter. There is
no such thing as a "free" or "non-free" trademark license — neither
Debian nor the FL/OSS community at large have made any such definitions.

You /could/ argue that because of a trademark policy (e.g. that clause
above), Debian does not have the right to distribute the work and thus
violates trademark law by doing so. That would apply to other entities
distributing those particular logos, such as, I dunno, everyone on the
Internet, including Debian via a bunch of other packages in the archive
;) My understanding is that such an interperation of the license
combined with this widespread use would weakens the trademark to the
point where it could get unenforceable (trademark law is very different
than copyright law).

I don't interpret that clause like you do, but I'd be happy regardless
to raise this with Wikimedia's legal team. (I am a Wikimedia Foundation
staff member, although my comments here are not on behalf of the
Foundation and are done on my personal capacity as a Debian Developer
and interested user).

On the other bug report you mentioned that you were in contact with
someone from the Foundation's legal team. Could you perhaps let us know
who you were previously in contact with so that we can continue that
conversation rather than start it from the beginning?

Thanks,
Faidon

Bug#829701: mediawiki: nōn-DFSG-free files in package

[Thorsten Glaser]

On Wed, 6 Jul 2016, Kunal Mehta wrote:
> On Tue, 5 Jul 2016 14:58:49 +0200 (CEST) Thorsten Glaser
>  wrote:
> > the newly uploaded Mediawiki package contains nÅ?n-free files under:
> > mediawiki_1%%3a1.25.5-1_all.deb/deb://CONTENTS/usr/share/mediawiki/resources/assets/licenses/
> > 
> > See also: #758030
> 
> Are there any other discussions about this where others agree with your
> interpretation about this? #760306 is still waiting for a comment from
> the ftp masters.

Barring a comment from ftpmasters you should err on the safe side.

> IANAL, but my reading of
>  is that it refers to
> trademark licensing (which MediaWiki complies with), not copyright.

Let me quote:

   You are authorized to use our trademarks subject to this Trademark Policy, 
and only on the further   
   condition that you download images of the trademarks directly from our 
[35]website. You are not  

Your packaging of Mediawiki does not do that. Users of your packaging
do not do that. That alone is grounds for unfreeness.

bye,
//mirabilos
-- 
tarent solutions GmbH
Rochusstraße 2-4, D-53123 Bonn • http://www.tarent.de/
Tel: +49 228 54881-393 • Fax: +49 228 54881-235
HRB 5168 (AG Bonn) • USt-ID (VAT): DE122264941
Geschäftsführer: Dr. Stefan Barth, Kai Ebenrett, Boris Esser, Alexander Steeg

Bug#829701: mediawiki: nōn-DFSG-free files in package

[Kunal Mehta]

Hi,

On Tue, 5 Jul 2016 14:58:49 +0200 (CEST) Thorsten Glaser
 wrote:
> the newly uploaded Mediawiki package contains nōn-free files under:
> mediawiki_1%%3a1.25.5-1_all.deb/deb://CONTENTS/usr/share/mediawiki/resources/assets/licenses/
> 
> See also: #758030

Are there any other discussions about this where others agree with your
interpretation about this? #760306 is still waiting for a comment from
the ftp masters.

IANAL, but my reading of
 is that it refers to
trademark licensing (which MediaWiki complies with), not copyright.

-- Kunal Mehta

Bug#829701: mediawiki: nōn-DFSG-free files in package

[Thorsten Glaser]

Package: mediawiki
Version: 1:1.25.5-1
Severity: serious
Justification: Policy §2.2.1

Hi,

the newly uploaded Mediawiki package contains nōn-free files under:
mediawiki_1%%3a1.25.5-1_all.deb/deb://CONTENTS/usr/share/mediawiki/resources/assets/licenses/

See also: #758030

bye,
//mirabilos
-- 
tarent solutions GmbH
Rochusstraße 2-4, D-53123 Bonn • http://www.tarent.de/
Tel: +49 228 54881-393 • Fax: +49 228 54881-235
HRB 5168 (AG Bonn) • USt-ID (VAT): DE122264941
Geschäftsführer: Dr. Stefan Barth, Kai Ebenrett, Boris Esser, Alexander Steeg