Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Russell Coker [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think that the best solution to many of the worlds problems would be to provide really cheap laptops and good net access (including satellite net access). The idea is that everyone in the world should be able to download whatever they like (with a few exceptions such as child porn). It's a great idea, and I hope it would work. But I'm wary of such technological determinism. In Europe, cheap printing led to a million presses printing sheets of whatever, with the result that there was a sudden huge broadening in thought, bringing in its wake the Refomation, the Enlightenment, and all kinds of good things to follow. In China, the result of the very same technology was the exact opposite; it provided the ability to mass-produce official versions of classic texts, to centralize the imperial bureaucracy more effectively, and so forth. Thomas
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 07:57:56PM +0100, Milan P. Stanic wrote: On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 06:17:37PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: However, I'd be *highly* agitated if someone gave my daughter a CD-ROM with *any* nudy cartoons. I'd rather live with this risk than with less freedom. only in a free society can we have this debate. If there exists societies that limit peoples freedom, why should we strive to limit peoples freedom. If the Debian project contains things are forbidden in other societies because they are less free, then we should be the example. -Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ Have you mooed today?... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Quoting Fernanda Giroleti Weiden ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Hi all, I read all the thread and I noted you are forgeting a main problem about this package. In my point of view: First of all, it's a sexist package, sure. Putting a program on Debian in which you have pictures of nude women is VERY agressive to the most women. Yes, it's agressive to me. As already written in -women, this is the point which saddens me the most in this thread. I'm really disappointed by seeing most contributors just not realize why this package, as proposed, is likely to hurt the feelings of several women (probably not all, I don't know) as well as, indirectly or not, some men. I have indeed no intention for objection this package in any matter. I'd just hope that the maintainer proposing it realizes that, though he personnally doesn't think so, his work may hurt some people. Legal nitpicking is another issue, which I personnally do not consider the most important one, indeed. The package is currently sexist, in my opinion. I just hope that saying this loud enough will make the maintainers change their mind. If it does not, well the result will be another sexist thing in free software. I someday wish I had an opportunity to talk of this with Bruno Bellamy, by the way (the artist whose drawings are used in this package). His artwork (and good work) is widely used in the free software community in France and (personal opinion, still) may sometime ring this bell of sexism.
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 07:34:06PM -0600, John Goerzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [... nonsense ...] Where did you see someone asking for inclusion of child porn ? Mike
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 19:34:06 -0600, John Goerzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 05:53:08PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 23:32:18 +, Will Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: And we have no time to set up i judgement over content -- there is a clear criteria for inclusion of packages in Debian already. We have no need to. We can collectively make reasonable decisions without having to set up a constitional authority to do so. At this point, there is no mechanism by which we can try and exclude packages out of debian which offend one (believe me on this. vi would have been long gone otherwise). The only thing you can do is either convince all the ftp-masters not to process it, or get a GR going. Or convince every DD not to upload the package in question. On this particular question, you are right that we cannot set up a purley objective mechanism to decide a subjective question. What you are missing is that we don't have to. What you are also missing is that we jeopardize our stated goal -- making a quality Free operating system -- by trying to push into it something that so many people find objectionable, exploitative, and illegal. A lot of people find various things in debian objectionable. Others do not. And people finding this package illegal -- I'm sorry, I do not see a clearcut argument that has so convinced me. Indeed, I am pretty sure that the images in this package are not illegal to distribute, either on a website (I have seen several urls posted), not as a package. Feel free to proce (not just offer opinions that I might be) wrong. Perhaps you believe that there is no content that should be illegal. Heck, no. Some content, like kiddie porn, is indeed illegal. I have seen no evidence that the content in question is. That is, however, not the case in much of the world. Child pornography is illegal in much of the world, and I might add rightly so, especially it is so often associated with abuse, exploitation, and even slavery. Wonderful paper tiger you attacked -- and well executed too. If not, then your arguments about it being impossible to set a line are moot. Rubbish. We set the line at illegal content, and by that criteria, this is not illegal to distribute, and hence hot-babe is in. While we are also discussing legality, before advocating the inclusion of pornography in Debian -- which is distributed to adults and minors by all manner of organizations worldwide -- please remember that the organization that holds Debian's legal assets, SPI, is incorporated in the United States and is subjected to United States laws. SPI does not govern Debian's behaviour. I for one do not think that the cause of including porn in Debian is worth it. How many people here are willing to go to jail so that we can include porn in main? Oh, yes, the sky is falling. Are you? Why? Have you any proof the content is illegal to distribute? Seems like it has been up and around for a while. Indeed, material even worse than that is present on web sitres situated in the US. Seems to me that this is mere FUD, trying to prevent expression of artistry you are offended by. If you claim there is no line we can draw, then if we agree with you, there is no reason to keep child porn out of main either. Can we please use some common sense? When you stop creating paper tigers to atrtack, we can talk, manoj -- It's morally wrong to let a sucker keep his money. Canada Bill Jones Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 07:53:41AM +0100, Christian Perrier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: As already written in -women, this is the point which saddens me the most in this thread. I'm really disappointed by seeing most contributors just not realize why this package, as proposed, is likely to hurt the feelings of several women (probably not all, I don't know) as well as, indirectly or not, some men. I have indeed no intention for objection this package in any matter. I'd just hope that the maintainer proposing it realizes that, though he personnally doesn't think so, his work may hurt some people. Yeah, as some other things in Debian hurt some other people. It's a matter of opinion and inclusion in Debian is not decided on opinion. Period. Mike
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 19:03:59 -0600, John Goerzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: You are quite right. We cannot fight all battles for everyone. Let's make an operating system. And stop trying to censor data and make sure our users are only exposed to RightThink. We should stop being the morL guardians of the free world, and let licenses, and what is legal to distribute, govern what goes in Debian. manoj -- In the future, you're going to get computers as prizes in breakfast cereals. You'll throw them out because your house will be littered with them. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 21:57:20 -0500, Daniel Burrows [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Wednesday 01 December 2004 06:55 pm, Manoj Srivastava wrote: But by this logic, Debian should include every bit of software it can -- if those countries with pesky copyright laws won't let us distribute it there, then we hope that portion of the world gets better in time. Debian will continue to practice freedom. I think this is mostly correct. So, do you think DeCSS should be included in main? Why or why not? Cause it is illegal to distribute in the countries where master and non-us machines live. manoj -- I think there's a world market for about five computers. attr. Thomas J. Watson (Chairman of the Board, IBM), 1943 Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:23:21 -0600, Joe Wreschnig [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 17:55, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 16:41:30 -0600, Joe Wreschnig [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 15:42, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 14:01:08 -0600, Joe Wreschnig [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 13:26, Eric Lavarde wrote: Hi again, perhaps to bring down the conversation to something more constructive, I think we should base decision to have something or not in Debian: 1. _NOT_ on personal belief (else we would probably end with nothing). Agreed. 2. _NOT_ on local laws (same comment). Disagreed. If Debian is illegal to distribute to some important section of people in the world, because we include strange noncritical bits of software (hotbabe, the bible), then we have a real problem. In that portion of the world, sure. DSebian should continue to practice freedom, and hope that those portions of the world get better in time. But by this logic, Debian should include every bit of software it can -- if those countries with pesky copyright laws won't let us distribute it there, then we hope that portion of the world gets better in time. Debian will continue to practice freedom. I think this is mostly correct. I think you misunderstood me. I meant *any and all programs*. After all, just because I can't legally exercise my freedoms to modify and distribute Microsoft Word here in the US, that shouldn't stop us from putting it in. It's just US copyright law being dumb. As I have posted elsewhere, we only distribute things that are legal to distribute, and then we only put DFSG free bits into Debian. This package is not, as far as I can tell, either illegal to distribute, or DFSG non-free. No, that doesn't work. There's some base level of stuff that's so unlawful we don't include it because it would cut off far too much of the userbase (or cause them to commit illegal acts). Enforced patents or situations where taking advantage of the freedoms outlined in the DFSG are two of them. Would you have Debian include child pornography if it was DFSG-free and someone wanted to maintain it, and it was legal in their country? Arguing from a false premise, I've answered this above. We need to decide what statutes if any this program could violate if Cool, for all the jurisdiction, it'll probably take 10 lawyers for every DD. Or we could use common sense. My common sense tells me this package is not illegal to distribute. In bad taste, but not illegal. distributed, and if the risks of alienating/denying that portion of users (in this case, people under 18/21 in various countries Debian is currently ok in) are worth it. And how do we find who we are alienating? Oh, I know: lets have a GR. Don't put words in my mouth. I hate GRs. That, unfortunately, may be the only recourse you have, if this thing ever gets packaged. manoj -- Rule of the Great: When people you greatly admire appear to be thinking deep thoughts, they probably are thinking about lunch. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 12:38:03AM +0100, Michelle Konzack wrote: Am 2004-12-01 18:23:47, schrieb sean finney: then don't give your daughter sudo privileges on your debian machines, and she can't install it! :) Too late... She is 13 and Administrator already... Had learned very fast how to 'rm -rf /' and reinstall it alone. Really, she's 13, and you think it'd do any difference whatsoever to expose her to a pixelled image of a nude woman?! Sheesh. Either you've been shielding her completely (no TV, no advertisments, no magazines, no Internet), or you need a reality update. Worried parents should realise, that if their kids are old enough to administrate a Debian-machine to the level of installing their own packages, they've already been exposed to nudity. Lots of times. And they should probably worry more about the cases of non-nudity that are far more hurting, like all commercials with near-anorectic plastic-wonders on billboards, etc, from companies constantly trying to push for the image of the ideal woman as someone who is malnourished, probably will have backproblems before the age of 30 because of frontal overweight, and generally likes drinking alcohol in her underwear... Whether the package hotbabe is something that should be in Debian or not I leave up to others to decide, but personally I feel it to be on the same utility level as xeyes (that is, none, but probably amusing to some persons for a day or two). I can agree that putting the work erotic in the package description might not be ideal though; a.) I had a look at the pictures and I have a *very* hard time finding them even mildly erotic... b.) it'll definitely annoy people. But please wake me up when bible-kjv-text has been removed. Descriptions of rape, incest, murder, and about everything else, cannot possibly be good for children to read about, now can it?! As for hotbabe being pornographic? Nah. It does it's fair share to objectify women though, something that I find more worrying. Indeed, in a society where people were more equal (and more relaxed about sexuality), the porn industry would very likely both be sanitised and less prosperous. Regards: David Weinehall -- /) David Weinehall [EMAIL PROTECTED] /) Northern lights wander (\ // Maintainer of the v2.0 kernel // Dance across the winter sky // \) http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao/(/ Full colour fire (/
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 07:34:06PM -0600, John Goerzen wrote: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 05:53:08PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 23:32:18 +, Will Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: And we have no time to set up i judgement over content -- there is a clear criteria for inclusion of packages in Debian already. [ snip something about child porn ] I for one do not think that the cause of including porn in Debian is worth it. How many people here are willing to go to jail so that we can include porn in main? Ok, Yes, if push comes to shove, I'll be happy to stand trial for the inclusion of hot-babe in main. Now, can we stop this stupid debate about something that is clearly a non-technical issue and get on with doing what we do best? Oh wait, this is d-d, isn't it... Regards, Neil McGovern -- A. Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion Q. Why is top posting bad? gpg key - http://www.halon.org.uk/pubkey.txt ; the.earth.li B345BDD3
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 23:43:56 +, Will Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Wednesday 01 Dec 2004 22:44, Manoj Srivastava wrote: These nebulous authorities also frown upon various other things, depending on your jurisdiction -- games of chance, the bible, games promoting violence, texts promoting freedom .. Descending to the lowest common denominator shall leave you with the husk of an operating system. Well don't then. Take each case on it's merits. There's no need to wilfully lump it all together. If we are bothered about laws governing software licenses, why are we not bothered about laws governing other things? Are they beneath us? Who gets to decide for each case? Usually it is the person who does the work who makes the decision -- the packager, in this case. The only way to override that is call in the tech ctte -- but this is not a technical issue. Yup, a GR for each case. Heh. manoj -- Regardless of the legal speed limit, your Buick must be operated at speeds faster than 85 MPH (140kph).-- 1987 Buick Grand National owners manual. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 23:47:47 +, Will Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Wednesday 01 Dec 2004 22:15, Andrew Suffield wrote: Anybody who can't obtain porn using only the tools provided on a Debian CD is a total moron. You might as well complain that the internet is bad, just because it's primarily used as a vehicle for delivering porn. No. We are talking about distributing hot-babe. Debian never has and probably never will distribute teh Intarnet. We cannot stop people doing anything with Debian that is within license terms once it is installed, but we can be held responsible for what we distribute. Yup. We also distribute purity-ogg. fortunes-off, and the bible. [And that's without even starting on this insane notion that trying to stop kids from seeing porn is somehow a good idea] Debian should have no moral concern, but a legal one is valid IMO. Right. There does not seem to be any indication that this material, like pictures of Raphael's nudes, is illegal to distribute. A concern about filling the archive with crap is a different thing altogether... Yup. need to get rid of vi. manoj -- A woman was in love with fourteen soldiers. It was clearly platoonic. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 07:53:41 +0100, Christian Perrier [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Quoting Fernanda Giroleti Weiden ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Hi all, I read all the thread and I noted you are forgeting a main problem about this package. In my point of view: First of all, it's a sexist package, sure. Putting a program on Debian in which you have pictures of nude women is VERY agressive to the most women. Yes, it's agressive to me. As already written in -women, this is the point which saddens me the most in this thread. I'm really disappointed by seeing most contributors just not realize why this package, as proposed, is likely to hurt the feelings of several women (probably not all, I don't know) as well as, indirectly or not, some men. Packages can hurt feelings, yes. vi hurts mine. The bible hurts other peoples. purity-off also hurt a lot of peoples feelings. Can't please everyone. There are over 15k packages in debian. Some of them surely hurt the sensibilities of a lot of people. Get over it. I have had to. I have indeed no intention for objection this package in any matter. I'd just hope that the maintainer proposing it realizes that, though he personnally doesn't think so, his work may hurt some people. That would solve matters, yes. manoj -- Just when you thought you were winning the rat race, along comes a faster rat!! Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 23:47:11 +, Roger Leigh [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Joe Wreschnig [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: We need to decide what statutes if any this program could violate if distributed, and if the risks of alienating/denying that portion of users (in this case, people under 18/21 in various countries Debian is currently ok in) are worth it. Agreed. If Debian were seen to be distributing pornography, I think it could cause untold damage to our reputation, and much more potential legal problems than e.g. non-US ever did. We distribute purity-off, and fortunes-off, some of which content is deemed vulgar, and perhaps even pornographic. The feeling I get from the thread so far is that most developers don't consider this pornography, and so okay to distribute to minors. Or alternately, if it is, then we don't care about blocking distribution of Debian to people in the affected countries because they have bigger problems. Fine, then I have no problem including it, though I will lament the continual archive bloat for Yet Another System Monitor. FWIW, I don't think this should be included in Debian, either. I don't like pornography, I don't think we should be distributing pornography (even if it's cartoons), and we already have enough far too many system monitors. Sure, I find the package in bad taste. And we have many editors, we do not need to distribute vi, which I find offensive as well. But my opinions seem to carry little weight. To be honest, I'd rather more time was spent on better integrating and fixing the packages we have got, rather than trying to package absolutely every piece of free software out there. No one is stopping you, are they? I don't see a lot of value in packaging peoples my first shell script or minor variations on common programs. I'd like for the No one is forcing you to. bar for new packages to be set rather higher than it is at the moment, and if it doesn't add any value over existing equivalents or have much general use it doesn't get in. Umm, when I package new stuff, the effort that goes into that, and the fact that I am signing up to fix bugs, etc, is an indication that I think there is value added by that package. manoj -- Q: What do Winnie the Pooh and John the Baptist have in common? A: The same middle name. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 06:18:35PM +0100, Goswin von Brederlow [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steve Langasek [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 04:01:06AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: Then, Disk 1 (which is very full-featured, after all) can be passed out where ever and to who ever, without any fear of possible problems. Hard-coding a list of unacceptable packages into the CD building scripts is a waste of time, because the location of a package on a CD set is primarily determined by its importance to the system and by its popularity. Most of these packages are in danger of ending up on the first CD any time soon -- and, if they were, why should we be overriding the overwhelming preferences expressed by our users just to pander to the childish sensibilities of people who *aren't* our users? Even worse with dvd images where nearly everything is on disc1. Are you kidding ? disc 2 is almost as big as disc 1. And with 2 discs, you get no source, this is ridiculous. We should take the advantage of the space available on a DVD to provide binary AND source of the packages we put on a DVD. Mike
Re: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 04:06:13PM +, Helen Faulkner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think that is the main issue here. I would like to believe that Debian is capable of showing more respect for other people than including hotbabe in the distribution would indicate. Yeah, i would like Debian to show more respect for me, by removing emacs and kde. Ah, the guy next door says he wants respect as well, and asks removal of vim and gnome. I'm pushing the thing to the absurd, but do you realise what you are saying is absolutely ridiculous ? Mike
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 15:19 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 04:46:18 -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Put such possibly controversial matter in contrib? No. Contrib is meant for things that depend on stuff that is not free, Ok. and is not a dumping ground for stuff yuu do not like. I think hot-babe is funny. Just wouldn't want the kids to see it. Is contrib on disk 1? If not, then at least disk 1 would be legal anywhere. I think it is perfectly legal to sell disk 1 -- like it is to sell even explicitly pornographic material. In most (probably all) of the US, porn magazines can be sold anywhere, but must be either behind the counter or securely wrapped in opaque plastic so that J Random Ten Year Old can't start thumbing through it at the magazine rack. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. Peace, in international affairs, is a period of cheating between two periods of fighting. Ambrose Bierce signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 15:53 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 18:09:48 -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: If my wife saw my son with these pictures on a disk that I gave him, she'd take a frying pan and beat me dead. I am sure I would say the same about the bible. Hard enough to raise a child without false gods being preached at to them from the debian cd. Yes. Also, all them games of chance should not be there either. A game of chance without money involved is just a game. Nor all the violent games. No killing of hordes of orcs. orcs were once elves, you know. Are there any such FPS' in Debian? nethack is there, but the violence is imagined, not in your face. Disk 1, at least, should be able to be given to anyone on the planet with a computer, without worry of any legal, spousal (or parental, for that matter) grief. oboy. can we get rid of vi from disk 1 then? finally? That's funny, but you know what I mean. Let him find girlie pictures on his own. So, you would encourage him to search the wilds of the internet, rather than some tame cartoons in hot-babe? weird. Encourage? No. But when he gets old enough to be interested in girls, and especially naked girls, he's going to do it on his own. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. The President has kept all the promises he intended to keep. George Stephanopolous signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Quoting Manoj Srivastava ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Packages can hurt feelings, yes. vi hurts mine. The bible hurts other peoples. purity-off also hurt a lot of peoples feelings. Can't please everyone. There are over 15k packages in debian. Some of them surely hurt the sensibilities of a lot of people. Get over it. I have had to. Sure. I won't even have to go over it. This does not prevent me saying what I personnally think is not a good idea. And sometimes imagine that doing so may change some people's way of seeing things...a small brick in a giant wall, maybe.
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 01:36, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:23:21 -0600, Joe Wreschnig [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 17:55, Manoj Srivastava wrote: And how do we find who we are alienating? Oh, I know: lets have a GR. Don't put words in my mouth. I hate GRs. That, unfortunately, may be the only recourse you have, if this thing ever gets packaged. You seem to be under the false impression I am vehemently against packaging hot-babe. In reality, I only wanted people to consider the legal (rather than ethical) consequences. Early in the thread the conversation was veering off in stupid directions about whether or not it was sexist or whether or not we want 13 year olds seeing it; I wanted to get it off of that. Since it seems that at least some people (such as yourself) have considered it as a legal issue and think it not a problem, I am fine supporting its entry into main, as I have stated elsewhere in this thread. I am open to a common sense resolution of the issue -- provided people are actually addressing the issue (which the vast majority of participates in this thread are not). This will be my last post on this topic; it's wasted too much of everyone's time already. -- Joe Wreschnig [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 16:07 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 20:35:04 -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Tue, 2004-11-30 at 21:23 -0500, David Nusinow wrote: On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 08:51:55PM +0100, Alexander Schmehl wrote: I'm not sure, how »pornography« is defined in the US and I really didn't intend to join your nice discussion, but could you please keep in mind, that it just show rough pixely pictures of a drawn woman? The problem with pornography in the US is that it isn't defined. It's officially I'll know it when I see it. Tread carefully. Add to that, contributing to the delinquency of a minor if the disk gets in the hand of a juvenile (the younger the better) and the prosecutor is up for re-election or has further political political ambitions. Same goes for gampling software, As I mentioned in another post, gambling requires money. AFAICT, no games in Debian *require* money. Thus, no gambling. and violent games. Or, in some locales, anything that promotes free speech or religion. anything that promotes free speech is pretty vague, but, for example, the PRC might not allow crypto s/w. Thus, maybe non-US may need to be renamed non-PRC? As for violent games religion, the question *does* need to be asked: how far will D-Ds bend their mostly libertarian/Leftist views in order to ensure that Debian *disks* can be possessed in as much of the world as possible? -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. Spit in one hand, and wish for peace in the other. Guess which is more effective... signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 23:13 +, Will Newton wrote: On Wednesday 01 Dec 2004 11:15, Ron Johnson wrote: Well, guess what? I live in the American South, and I'd like to give away disks to young geeks and wannabees without having to worry about whether his/her parents or teacher would wig out. Subjective. Legal issues are one thing, subjectively offensive stuff is another. No. Everywhere (or just about everywhere) in the US, it is illegal to give porn to a minor. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. World peace, like community peace, does not require that each man love his neighbor -- it requires only that they live together with mutual tolerance, submitting their disputes to a just and peaceful settlement. John F Kennedy signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
Mike Hommey wrote: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 04:06:13PM +, Helen Faulkner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think that is the main issue here. I would like to believe that Debian is capable of showing more respect for other people than including hotbabe in the distribution would indicate. Yeah, i would like Debian to show more respect for me, by removing emacs and kde. Ah, the guy next door says he wants respect as well, and asks removal of vim and gnome. I'm pushing the thing to the absurd, but do you realise what you are saying is absolutely ridiculous ? Yes, you are being absurd. Since you are presumably not understanding the point, let me explain more clearly: Pornography is widely regarded as being demeaning and insulting to women. KDE is not similarly demeaning to Gnome users. It does not objectify them, pressure them to meet unrealistic standards, encourage others to regard them as existing only for the pleasure of KDE users. Etc. If Debian colletively cannot percieve the difference between being offended by hotbabe and offended by KDE, I am worried about Debian. Yes, it is a shady issue. Yes, the line between acceptable offence and unacceptable offense is unclear, and would be drawn in a different place by different people. Welcome to the real world :) Helen
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thursday 02 December 2004 16:21, Ron Johnson wrote: anything that promotes free speech is pretty vague, but, for example, the PRC might not allow crypto s/w. Thus, maybe non-US may need to be renamed non-PRC? They do allow crypto s/w, AFAIK. At least none of my friends got detained yet. :o) Cheers Arne -- Arne Gtje () [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Spam catcher. Address might change in future!) PGP/GnuPG key: 1024D/685D1E8C Fingerprint: 2056 F6B7 DEA8 B478 311F 1C34 6E9F D06E 685D 1E8C Key available at wwwkeys.pgp.net. Encrypted e-mail preferred. pgp6dDp2x9uZh.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 15:23 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 02:08:59 -0600, Joe Wreschnig [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: However, pornography causes significant legal problems in the US, and probably moreso in many other countries. If I give a Debian CD containing this software to a minor, am I distributing pornography? Hmm. I see pictures of nudes by Raphael in some of the national geographic magazines -- and there is nudity in the pictures of the sistine chapel. The old testament of the bible talks about various and sundry unsavoury things, and yet it is given to children even in churches. Let us not get hysterical here. Ok, let's look at case law: http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/o002.htm http://www.moralityinmedia.org/index.htm?obscenityEnforcement/obscporn.htm That a reasonable person would find that the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political and scientific value. Examples of 'hardcore sexual conduct' that an obscenity law could include for regulation under the second prong of the test are patently offensive representations or descriptions of: - Ultimate sexual acts, normal or perverted, actual or simulated - Masturbation, lewd exhibition of the genitals, excretory functions, and sadomasochistic abuse. Note the lewd exhibition of the genitals. Thus, neither the Raphaels nor the Sistine Chapel would be consid- ered nudes by any jurisdiction in the country. But the nudy cartoons would, especially in the hand of a minor. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. Don't think of it as a flame, think of it as an argument that does 3d6 fire damage! signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 01:54 -0500, Kevin Mark wrote: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 07:57:56PM +0100, Milan P. Stanic wrote: On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 06:17:37PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: However, I'd be *highly* agitated if someone gave my daughter a CD-ROM with *any* nudy cartoons. I'd rather live with this risk than with less freedom. only in a free society can we have this debate. If there exists societies that limit peoples freedom, why should we strive to limit peoples freedom. If the Debian project contains things are forbidden in other societies because they are less free, then we should be the example. Yes, but Debian can't be an example to them if they don't have it in the 1st place. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. Why do so few (American) parents teach manners to their Children anymore? signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 16:29 +0900, Mike Hommey wrote: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 07:34:06PM -0600, John Goerzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [... nonsense ...] Where did you see someone asking for inclusion of child porn ? John was taking Manoj's reasoning to the limit. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. If 1/2 of all US marriages end in divorce, and there are a good number of 3rd, 4th, etc marriages, then more than 1/2 of all 1st marriages will be permanent. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 01:30 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 19:34:06 -0600, John Goerzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 05:53:08PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 23:32:18 +, Will Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: And we have no time to set up i judgement over content -- there is a clear criteria for inclusion of packages in Debian already. [snip] If not, then your arguments about it being impossible to set a line are moot. Rubbish. We set the line at illegal content, and by that criteria, this is not illegal to distribute, and hence hot-babe is in. Yes, it is. http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/o002.htm http://www.moralityinmedia.org/index.htm?obscenityEnforcement/obscporn.htm lewd exhibition of the genitals [snip] Have you any proof the content is illegal to distribute? Seems like it has been up and around for a while. Indeed, material even worse than that is present on web sitres situated in the US. Seems to me that this is mere FUD, trying to prevent expression of artistry you are offended by. See above. -- - Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson, LA USA PGP Key ID 8834C06B I prefer encrypted mail. Don't tell me peace has broken out. Bertolt Brecht signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 02:44:22 -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 01:30 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 19:34:06 -0600, John Goerzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 05:53:08PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 23:32:18 +, Will Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: And we have no time to set up i judgement over content -- there is a clear criteria for inclusion of packages in Debian already. [snip] If not, then your arguments about it being impossible to set a line are moot. Rubbish. We set the line at illegal content, and by that criteria, this is not illegal to distribute, and hence hot-babe is in. Yes, it is. Rubbish. Goes to show a little knowledge is dangerous. http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/o002.htm http://www.moralityinmedia.org/index.htm?obscenityEnforcement/obscporn.htm lewd exhibition of the genitals And quoting out of context as well. For something to be obscene it must be shown that the average person, applying contemporary community standards and viewing the material as a whole, would find (1) that the work appeals predominantly to prurient interest; (2) that it depicts or describes sexual conduct in a patently offensive way; and (3) that it lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value. Hmm. ok. The first test to be applied, therefore, in determining whether given material is obscene, is whether the predominant theme or purpose of the material, when viewed as a whole and not part by part, and when considered in relation to the intended and probable recipients, is an appeal to the prurient interest of the average person of the community as a whole, or the prurient interest of members of a deviant sexual group, as the case might be. The predominant theme or purpose of the material, when viewed as a whole, means the main or principal thrust of the material when assessed in its entirety and on the basis of its total effect, and not on the basis of incidental themes or isolated passages or sequences. The principla thrust seems to be to tell me if the CPU is loaded or not -- and, incidentally, show me a cartoon figure in a way which is demeaning to women. I really did not find the work erotic. The second test to be applied in determining whether given material is obscene is whether it depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct such as ultimate sexual acts, normal or perverted, actual or simulated; masturbation; excretory functions; or lewd exhibition of the genitals measured against whether the material is patently offensive by contemporary community standards; that is, whether it so exceeds the generally accepted limits of candor as to be clearly offensive. Umm. exceeds the generally accepted limits of candor as to be clearly offensive? In this day and age, considering the stuff I can see on prime time television? I think this is highly debatable. Contemporary community standards, as stated before, are those established by what is generally accepted in the community as a whole; The internet community that Debian is apart of would consider this fairly tame, considering what a mistyped search engine address seems to pop up on the screen. The third test to be applied in determining whether given material is obscene is whether the material, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political or scientific value. An item may have serious value in one or more of these areas even though it portrays explicit sexual conduct. Hmm. Does it lack artistic value? I dummo. The artist seems to have a lot of material that is deemed art. I am not sure the current image is absolutely without merit when it comes to artistic value -- there are things in the MOMA that have deserved the lable less, in my opinion. See above. Yup. Goes a long way to convince me that I can't trust your judgement. manoj -- I owe, I owe, It's off to work I go... Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 02:40:47 -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 16:29 +0900, Mike Hommey wrote: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 07:34:06PM -0600, John Goerzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [... nonsense ...] Where did you see someone asking for inclusion of child porn ? John was taking Manoj's reasoning to the limit. Yup. Arguing by the extremes, while intriguing to some, is extremely jejune. manoj -- I HATE arbitrary limits, especially when they're small. Stephen Savitzky Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 08:03:42 +, Helen Faulkner [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Mike Hommey wrote: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 04:06:13PM +, Helen Faulkner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think that is the main issue here. I would like to believe that Debian is capable of showing more respect for other people than including hotbabe in the distribution would indicate. Yeah, i would like Debian to show more respect for me, by removing emacs and kde. Ah, the guy next door says he wants respect as well, and asks removal of vim and gnome. I'm pushing the thing to the absurd, but do you realise what you are saying is absolutely ridiculous ? Yes, you are being absurd. Since you are presumably not understanding the point, let me explain more clearly: Pornography is widely regarded as being demeaning and insulting to women. Purity-off is widely regarded as insulting to a lot of people. fortunes-off likewise. And the bible is insulting, with its presumption of godliness of false gods, is offensive to anyone not of the judea-christian-islamic bent of mind. I strongly recommend growing a thicker skin. manoj -- Counting in binary is just like counting in decimal -- if you are all thumbs. Glaser and Way Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 02:35:39 -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 15:23 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Tue, 30 Nov 2004 02:08:59 -0600, Joe Wreschnig [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: However, pornography causes significant legal problems in the US, and probably moreso in many other countries. If I give a Debian CD containing this software to a minor, am I distributing pornography? Hmm. I see pictures of nudes by Raphael in some of the national geographic magazines -- and there is nudity in the pictures of the sistine chapel. The old testament of the bible talks about various and sundry unsavoury things, and yet it is given to children even in churches. Let us not get hysterical here. Ok, let's look at case law: http://www.lectlaw.com/def2/o002.htm http://www.moralityinmedia.org/index.htm?obscenityEnforcement/obscporn.htm That a reasonable person would find that the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political and scientific value. Examples of 'hardcore sexual conduct' that an obscenity law could include for regulation under the second prong of the test are patently offensive representations or descriptions of: - Ultimate sexual acts, normal or perverted, actual or simulated - Masturbation, lewd exhibition of the genitals, excretory functions, and sadomasochistic abuse. Note the lewd exhibition of the genitals. The critical term is lewd. Artistic display of the genitals is fine. Thus, neither the Raphaels nor the Sistine Chapel would be consid- ered nudes by any jurisdiction in the country. Why, because the display of the genitals is not lewd? But the nudy cartoons would, especially in the hand of a minor. As far as I know, we are not selling to minors. There are tings in Debian already that may not be suitable material for minors in the first place. manoj -- There are two means of refuge from the miseries of life: music and cats. Albert Schweitzer Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 02:44:22AM -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: lewd exhibition of the genitals genitals: A sex organ, or primary sexual characteristic, narrowly defined, is any of those parts of the body (which are not always bodily organs according to the strict definition) which are involved in sexual reproduction and constitute the reproductive system in an complex organism; namely: * Male: penis (notably the glans and its covering the foreskin), testicles, scrotum, prostate, seminal vesicles, epididymis, Cowper's glands * Female: vulva (notably the clitoris and its covering the clitoral hood), vagina (notably the cervix), labia, uterus, Fallopian tubes, ovaries, Skene's glands, Bartholin's glands. Now you have to tell me where you see genitals in hot-babe... I barely see pubic hair. Mike
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 11:32:18PM +, Will Newton wrote: On Wednesday 01 Dec 2004 21:35, Manoj Srivastava wrote: Right. We should not have games like quake, doom, or nethack,. since they promoite murder and mayhem and eating of corpses. So far so sarcastic. IMO if it can be demonstrated that distributing something is illegal we should think about not distributing it. And, as demonstrated elsewhere in the thread, whoops goes bible-kjv-text. We are not the EFF. If they or anyone else wants to fight for the No, we're not. We're also not the PTA or the moral police. right to look at cartoon tits then that's fine by me. We are trying to build an operating system. I think. Indeed. From that point of view, hotbabe is pretty meaningless. Then again, so is quake, doom, nethack, etc. Regards: David Weinehall -- /) David Weinehall [EMAIL PROTECTED] /) Northern lights wander (\ // Maintainer of the v2.0 kernel // Dance across the winter sky // \) http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao/(/ Full colour fire (/
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 10:04:15PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: Russell Coker [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I think that the best solution to many of the worlds problems would be to provide really cheap laptops and good net access (including satellite net access). The idea is that everyone in the world should be able to download whatever they like (with a few exceptions such as child porn). It's a great idea, and I hope it would work. But I'm wary of such technological determinism. In Europe, cheap printing led to a million presses printing sheets of whatever, with the result that there was a sudden huge broadening in thought, bringing in its wake the Refomation, the Enlightenment, and all kinds of good things to follow. In China, the result of the very same technology was the exact opposite; it provided the ability to mass-produce official versions of classic texts, to centralize the imperial bureaucracy more effectively, and so forth. Thomas Hi Thomas, the freedom of the press means that the people control the press. if the goverment control the press, then there is no such freedom. -Kev -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ Have you mooed today?... signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
* Ron Johnson | Nor all the violent games. No killing of hordes of orcs. orcs | were once elves, you know. | | Are there any such FPS' in Debian? nethack is there, but the | violence is imagined, not in your face. lxdoom is in main. quake2 and -data are in contrib. -- Tollef Fog Heen,''`. UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' : `. `' `-
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
* Helen Faulkner | Pornography is widely regarded as being demeaning and insulting to women. - A lot of people don't think the cartoon is pornography. - If you think it is pr0n then I think it would be nice if you rather provided some other pictures. A sheared sheep or a tree losing its leaves have been suggested. Joe Drew (iirc) provided an offer, valid two months as of a couple of hours ago that he'd make the program themeable if somebody provided graphics. If you actually _do_ something about the graphics, you are helping. Just saying «this shouldn't be packaged because it objectifies women» doesn't change the world. | KDE is not similarly demeaning to Gnome users. It does not objectify | them, pressure them to meet unrealistic standards, encourage others to | regard them as existing only for the pleasure of KDE users. Etc. Does the cartoon in hot-babe pressure you to meet unrealistic standards and encourage you to only be for the pleasure of hot-babe users? I wasn't actually able to find any decent-looking similar images of a man (there's a limit to how much anime porn I'm willing to look through to prove a point..), but if somebody were to make similar images of a man with less and less clothes, I would just find it silly. In the same way I find the current images silly. I am not saying I don't believe you, I am just surprised that you seem to feel objectified and pressured by a silly little cartoon. -- Tollef Fog Heen,''`. UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' : `. `' `-
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 01:45:25AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 07:53:41 +0100, Christian Perrier [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Quoting Fernanda Giroleti Weiden ([EMAIL PROTECTED]): Hi all, I read all the thread and I noted you are forgeting a main problem about this package. In my point of view: First of all, it's a sexist package, sure. Putting a program on Debian in which you have pictures of nude women is VERY agressive to the most women. Yes, it's agressive to me. As already written in -women, this is the point which saddens me the most in this thread. I'm really disappointed by seeing most contributors just not realize why this package, as proposed, is likely to hurt the feelings of several women (probably not all, I don't know) as well as, indirectly or not, some men. Packages can hurt feelings, yes. vi hurts mine. The bible hurts other peoples. purity-off also hurt a lot of peoples feelings. Can't please everyone. There are over 15k packages in debian. Some of them surely hurt the sensibilities of a lot of people. Get over it. I have had to. Hi Manoj, How would a bug report about 'this packages offends me because of $SOME_REASON' be handled?' about say vi? - -Kev - -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ Have you mooed today?... -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBruSYRp+kG4Nu//URAse4AJ92DQOYKAwD8gs9spFqpj6YLw+0dgCgjaqW r4ttI1CkaurrDqt1VMvhrTc= =njei -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 02:36:56AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 01:54 -0500, Kevin Mark wrote: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 07:57:56PM +0100, Milan P. Stanic wrote: On Tue, Nov 30, 2004 at 06:17:37PM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: However, I'd be *highly* agitated if someone gave my daughter a CD-ROM with *any* nudy cartoons. I'd rather live with this risk than with less freedom. only in a free society can we have this debate. If there exists societies that limit peoples freedom, why should we strive to limit peoples freedom. If the Debian project contains things are forbidden in other societies because they are less free, then we should be the example. Yes, but Debian can't be an example to them if they don't have it in the 1st place. Hi Ron, I have no objection to yet another CDD ... debian-buddist,debian-islamic,... All someone has to do is create the appropriate meta-package or jigdo text. Something like this would take little effort by the folks involved. kind of remnds me of something I heard about walmart on PBS. They have 'clean' versions of pop music created for their monoply^H^H^H^H^HStores. - -Kev - -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ Have you mooed today?... -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBrucURp+kG4Nu//URAqR6AJ9BBNpWVP9k2RDuDVl9n8i645If+ACdF7Lu YxdMs+M5YIKk6kVm+Qh4a6E= =gARc -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thursday 02 December 2004 10.36, Kevin Mark wrote: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 10:04:15PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: In Europe, cheap printing led to [...] a sudden huge broadening in thought [...] In China, the result of the very same technology was the exact opposite; [...] centralize the imperial bureaucracy more effectively, and so forth. the freedom of the press means that the people control the press. if the goverment control the press, then there is no such freedom. Your point being? -- vbi -- Protect your privacy - encrypt your email: http://fortytwo.ch/gpg/intro pgpypCwpbWtCR.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 12:04:06PM +0100, Adrian 'Dagurashibanipal' von Bidder wrote: On Thursday 02 December 2004 10.36, Kevin Mark wrote: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 10:04:15PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: In Europe, cheap printing led to [...] a sudden huge broadening in thought [...] In China, the result of the very same technology was the exact opposite; [...] centralize the imperial bureaucracy more effectively, and so forth. the freedom of the press means that the people control the press. if the goverment control the press, then there is no such freedom. Your point being? -- vbi Hi vbi, TB said that cheap technology was used to promote democracy in Europe but was used to the opposite effect in China. But the point I was making was that price of the technology makes no difference if it is solely in the hands of the government. - -Kev - -- counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted! (__) (oo) /--\/ / ||| * /\---/\ ~~ ~~ Have you mooed today?... -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFBrvlFRp+kG4Nu//URAmfjAJ9Dd23XzYXSvi8ZrX7frPfW0byUHwCglOE5 uJZM/XKWfXmEstlkXnhbdeY= =cqoW -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 11:47:47PM +, Will Newton wrote: On Wednesday 01 Dec 2004 22:15, Andrew Suffield wrote: Anybody who can't obtain porn using only the tools provided on a Debian CD is a total moron. You might as well complain that the internet is bad, just because it's primarily used as a vehicle for delivering porn. No. We are talking about distributing hot-babe. You didn't read the mail I was replying to, did you? -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 02:07:45AM +0100, Jonas Meurer wrote: but people should never be criticised or even discriminated for their skin color, origin, gender, ... Gender is a choice. You just offended a whole bunch of transsexuals. If you're going to be a patronising hippie, at least get it right. -- .''`. ** Debian GNU/Linux ** | Andrew Suffield : :' : http://www.debian.org/ | `. `' | `- -- | signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 08:03:42AM +, Helen Faulkner wrote: Yes, you are being absurd. Since you are presumably not understanding the point, let me explain more clearly: Pornography is widely regarded as being demeaning and insulting to women. Is this among people who are associated with pornography, either by being producers or consumers, or would this be among people who have some other motive for disliking porn? I happen to have the pleasure of knowing dozens of sex industry workers, including prostitutes (male, female, and TS), camerawomen, models, actors and actresses, store owners, dildo designers, authors, sex club bouncers, webmasters, toy reviewers and professional doms. I'm sure every one of them would agree with me that the expression of sex and pornography is about _freedom_, especially freedom from the oppressive ideas of outsiders, and that anyone who thinks it is demeaning or insulting to anyone just really is missing the boat. At least one of them (the store owner) feels that people that say they dislike porn just have never been exposed to the right kind. It's a pretty common feeling to dislike something you don't understand. Especially when repeatedly told to dislike it. Perhaps the porn by itself is neutral, and the oppresive cluture around it is what causes it to be demeaning. (btw, is gay porn demeaning to women?) dave...
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 08:15:16AM +1100, Matthew Palmer wrote: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 08:50:08PM +0200, Kalle Kivimaa wrote: Yes, hotbabe is sexist (at least in it's current incarnation - if it included a male theme then it would only be sexually offensive to some) Anyone who feels that hot-babe would become less sexually offensive because it included naked male images as well as naked female images really does need to rethink their ideas about offensiveness. Somehow putting more offensive images into a package doesn't strike me as being the way to make something less offensive. Not less sexually offensive. But adding naked male images would probably take the edge of the argument of the package being sexist. Personally, I don't have a problem with the package as-is -- the pictures aren't exactly the most graphic thing that's likely to pop up unannounced in a web-browser window, but the authorities frown on distributing anything tittilating to minors in a lot of places, so I'd vote for making it a series of pictures of a tree shedding it's leaves or something in the default incarnation. While being all for that series of pictures (nature is beautiful), I find the package pretty meaningless anyway, so I don't see the point of including it in Debian in the first place. I do, however, see some relevance to the discussions. Regards: David Weinehall -- /) David Weinehall [EMAIL PROTECTED] /) Northern lights wander (\ // Maintainer of the v2.0 kernel // Dance across the winter sky // \) http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao/(/ Full colour fire (/
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
* Christian Perrier ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [041202 08:15]: As already written in -women, this is the point which saddens me the most in this thread. I'm really disappointed by seeing most contributors just not realize why this package, as proposed, is likely to hurt the feelings of several women (probably not all, I don't know) as well as, indirectly or not, some men. I have indeed no intention for objection this package in any matter. I'd just hope that the maintainer proposing it realizes that, though he personnally doesn't think so, his work may hurt some people. Legal nitpicking is another issue, which I personnally do not consider the most important one, indeed. The package is currently sexist, in my opinion. I just hope that saying this loud enough will make the maintainers change their mind. If it does not, well the result will be another sexist thing in free software. I someday wish I had an opportunity to talk of this with Bruno Bellamy, by the way (the artist whose drawings are used in this package). His artwork (and good work) is widely used in the free software community in France and (personal opinion, still) may sometime ring this bell of sexism. I think you described the important issues quite well. Making a good distribution is more than just upload any package which you legally could. Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ PGP 1024/89FB5CE5 DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F 3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C
Re: Debian Weekly News Letter RSS Feed
Alexander Wirt wrote: Hi guys, I found some time to set up a rss feed for the dwn, try: http://people.debian.org/~formorer/dwn/dwd.rss Great work. But your link has a typo. Try this one: http://people.debian.org/~formorer/dwn/dwn.rss -- Peter Hoffmann [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Op wo, 01-12-2004 te 19:34 -0600, schreef John Goerzen: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 05:53:08PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 23:32:18 +, Will Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: And we have no time to set up i judgement over content -- there is a clear criteria for inclusion of packages in Debian already. We have no need to. We can collectively make reasonable decisions without having to set up a constitional authority to do so. rotfl. Most of the time, we cannot even make reasonable /with/ our constitutional methods, let alone without them. -- EARTH smog | bricks AIR -- mud -- FIRE soda water | tequila WATER -- with thanks to fortune
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 04:19:48PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 09:06:18 +1100, Hamish Moffatt [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 03:30:24PM -0200, Everton da Silva Marques wrote: It's VERY oppressive to force hot-babe out of Debian because of personal feelings about nudity. It's pure anti-speech insanity leading the way to socialism. How about we leave it out because it's crap, then? From all accounts, it seems to be a well done piece of software -- just its choice of images is an issue. Really? To me it seems trivial and almost useless. Why bother linking the images with the system load? Just set up an applet to display porn and get on with it. Why stop at cartoons? Once it's themable, we should ship some photographs too. And don't worry about the load monitoring, let's just ship some porn for the sake of it. Call it test data for pornview or something. Hmm. I would like some Raphael budes, yes. and some studies by michelangelo too. Oh, you think that is not porn? I think calling the hot-babe package and images 'art' is a bit farfetched. Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt VK3SB [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 04:13:51PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 17:34:34 +0100, Michelle Konzack [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: I do not like to go to prison in Iran or may be killed because I have such application on one of my Desktops. The solution is to change iran, not try to change the rest of the world to bve implicit in the oppression. So if it is illegal to give the hot-babe images to minors, do you propose to change those laws also? Do you think that they may exist for good reasons? Including this package would seem to ultimately reduce our freedom to distribute the Debian OS (ie, to minors, as well as possibly to some parts of the world). I can't see how that is desirable. I think that including this package makes us look immature. Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt VK3SB [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 03:36:50PM +0900, Mike Hommey wrote: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 04:06:13PM +, Helen Faulkner [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think that is the main issue here. I would like to believe that Debian is capable of showing more respect for other people than including hotbabe in the distribution would indicate. Yeah, i would like Debian to show more respect for me, by removing emacs and kde. Ah, the guy next door says he wants respect as well, and asks removal of vim and gnome. I'm pushing the thing to the absurd, but do you realise what you are saying is absolutely ridiculous ? Really, you can't see any difference between kde and hot-babe? Does NM include a half-a-clue check? Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt VK3SB [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thursday 02 December 2004 07:53, Christian Perrier wrote: The package is currently sexist, in my opinion. I just hope that saying this loud enough will make the maintainers change their mind. If it does not, well the result will be another sexist thing in free software. LOL, the package is no more sexist than it is racist for only showing a person of _one_ colour. Unfortunatly there are not many transexual multicoloured people around to make nude pictures of.
Re: Bug#283903: ITP: dbconfig-common -- common framework for packaging database applications
On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 12:29:33AM -0500, Sean Finney wrote: Package name: dbconfig-common Version : 0.7 Upstream Author : sean finney [EMAIL PROTECTED] URL : http://people.debian.org/~seanius/policy/dbconfig-common.html License : BSD Description : common framework for packaging database applications dbconfig-common is an implementation of the best practices for database applications (http://people.debian.org/~seanius/policy/dbapp-policy.html) draft, which provides debian packagers with an easy, reliable, and consistant method for managing databases used by debian packages. currently, only support exists for mysql databases, but i'm now working on integrating postgresql support too. i've started an alioth project if anyone is interested in helping out. _Sweeet!_ What's the timeframe on seeing this? And any chance of it making Sarge? -- --- Paul TBBle Hampson, MCSE 7th year CompSci/Asian Studies student, ANU The Boss, Bubblesworth Pty Ltd (ABN: 51 095 284 361) [EMAIL PROTECTED] No survivors? Then where do the stories come from I wonder? -- Capt. Jack Sparrow, Pirates of the Caribbean This email is licensed to the recipient for non-commercial use, duplication and distribution. --- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Mike Hommey [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 06:18:35PM +0100, Goswin von Brederlow [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steve Langasek [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 04:01:06AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: Then, Disk 1 (which is very full-featured, after all) can be passed out where ever and to who ever, without any fear of possible problems. Hard-coding a list of unacceptable packages into the CD building scripts is a waste of time, because the location of a package on a CD set is primarily determined by its importance to the system and by its popularity. Most of these packages are in danger of ending up on the first CD any time soon -- and, if they were, why should we be overriding the overwhelming preferences expressed by our users just to pander to the childish sensibilities of people who *aren't* our users? Even worse with dvd images where nearly everything is on disc1. Are you kidding ? disc 2 is almost as big as disc 1. And with 2 discs, you get no source, this is ridiculous. We should take the advantage of the space available on a DVD to provide binary AND source of the packages we put on a DVD. Mike You have substantially more on the first dvd than the first cd. Having it on the second dvd would be like moving it to the 6th or 7th cd. Since ordering is done by popcon and due to all this talk hot-babe probably ends up high enough to be on the first dvd. MfG Goswin
Bug#283940: ITP: libvcp-dest-svk-perl -- perl VCP::Dest::svk - svk destination driver for VCP
Package: wnpp Severity: wishlist * Package name: libvcp-dest-svk-perl Version : 0.28 * URL : http://svn.clkao.org/svnweb/member/browse/clkao/VCP-Dest-svk/ * License : Artistic Description : perl VCP::Dest::svk - svk destination driver for VCP This driver allows vcp to insert revisions in to a Subversion repository via the svk interface. You could use the vcp command line interface or the integrated SVK mirror command. It allows to mirror CVS repository into the Subversion repository.
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 02:13:25AM -0600, Joe Wreschnig wrote: On Thu, 2004-12-02 at 01:36, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Wed, 01 Dec 2004 18:23:21 -0600, Joe Wreschnig [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Wed, 2004-12-01 at 17:55, Manoj Srivastava wrote: And how do we find who we are alienating? Oh, I know: lets have a GR. Don't put words in my mouth. I hate GRs. That, unfortunately, may be the only recourse you have, if this thing ever gets packaged. You seem to be under the false impression I am vehemently against packaging hot-babe. In reality, I only wanted people to consider the legal (rather than ethical) consequences. Early in the thread the conversation was veering off in stupid directions about whether or not it was sexist or whether or not we want 13 year olds seeing it; I wanted to get it off of that. Since it seems that at least some people (such as yourself) have considered it as a legal issue and think it not a problem, I am fine supporting its entry into main, as I have stated elsewhere in this thread. I am open to a common sense resolution of the issue -- provided people are actually addressing the issue (which the vast majority of participates in this thread are not). This will be my last post on this topic; it's wasted too much of everyone's time already. The only thing this thread has succeeded in doing for me is: a) making me go download, compile and run it b) adjust the threshold so I have to work for my reward c) thinking, wow, this is cool, i wish it was debianized so i didn't have to do step a P. --
Re: Debian Weekly News Letter RSS Feed
Peter Hoffmann wrote: Alexander Wirt wrote: Hi guys, I found some time to set up a rss feed for the dwn, try: http://people.debian.org/~formorer/dwn/dwd.rss Great work. But your link has a typo. Try this one: http://people.debian.org/~formorer/dwn/dwn.rss Args... You are of course right :). Much too early in the morning. Thanks Alex
Re: Bug#283903: ITP: dbconfig-common -- common framework for packaging database applications
hi paul, On Fri, Dec 03, 2004 at 12:09:38AM +1100, Paul Hampson wrote: _Sweeet!_ What's the timeframe on seeing this? And any chance of it making Sarge? honestly, i think i'd rather not see it go into sarge, at least while it's still half-finished and possibly buggy. of course i reserve the right to change my mind on this, but no matter what it would need to be used and tested by a much larger audience first. now that mysql support is nearly complete, i think it's actually worth uploading into unstable. however, i think i'd like to drop it in experimental first and get somebody other than me to actually use it. sean -- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 01:30:48AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 19:34:06 -0600, John Goerzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 05:53:08PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 23:32:18 +, Will Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: And we have no time to set up i judgement over content -- there is a clear criteria for inclusion of packages in Debian already. We have no need to. We can collectively make reasonable decisions without having to set up a constitional authority to do so. At this point, there is no mechanism by which we can try and exclude packages out of debian which offend one (believe me on this. vi would have been long gone otherwise). The only thing you can do is either convince all the ftp-masters not to process it, or get a Well that's a mechanism, the ftp masters frequently reject things. A lot of people find various things in debian objectionable. Others do not. And people finding this package illegal -- I'm sorry, I do not see a clearcut argument that has so convinced me. Indeed, I am pretty sure that the images in this package are not illegal to distribute, either on a website (I have seen several urls posted), not as a package. Feel free to proce (not just offer opinions that I might be) wrong. But your argument was not limited to this particular package. You also argued that we should not be limiting ourselves by things that some find objectionable, and extended the question into other nude images. I am simply saying that these things can be illegal indeed. And if you think that we are safe in this instance because it looks fine to us, think again. All it takes is one Southern prosecutor up for re-election to go after all the vile scum porn perpetrators on the Internet for us to be in what is sure to be a draining legal fight, even if we do wind up victorious. That, or one offended parent. Don't forget that people can sue us -- and force us to mount a costly defence -- even if the law is on our side. If not, then your arguments about it being impossible to set a line are moot. Rubbish. We set the line at illegal content, and by that criteria, this is not illegal to distribute, and hence hot-babe is in. And yet, at the same time, were you not saying we couldn't do that because parochial laws differ? In this instance, by whose laws are we determining that it's legal? remember that the organization that holds Debian's legal assets, SPI, is incorporated in the United States and is subjected to United States laws. SPI does not govern Debian's behaviour. True enough, but the fact that it's incorporated in the United States makes it subject to US law. That makes it easy to be sued, assets (read: machines) siezed, etc. Have you any proof the content is illegal to distribute? Seems like it has been up and around for a while. Indeed, material even worse than that is present on web sitres situated in the US. Seems to me that this is mere FUD, trying to prevent expression of artistry you are offended by. I am only objecting to it being included in Debian. It is extremely difficult to prove whether or not such a thing is illegal in the U.S. because: 1) laws differ based on location, and 2) it's a subjective question a judge has to answer, and 3) judges have different subjective taste. When it comes down to it, though, neither of us are lawyers and thus are not really qualified to speak about it. What I am saying is that there is no reason to take the risk. If you claim there is no line we can draw, then if we agree with you, there is no reason to keep child porn out of main either. Can we please use some common sense? When you stop creating paper tigers to atrtack, we can talk, Perhaps you should stop asserting that it is impossible to reject these things then, or that it is impossible to set a line. -- John
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
Hi all, Em Qui, 2004-12-02 s 07:46, Tollef Fog Heen escreveu: * Helen Faulkner | Pornography is widely regarded as being demeaning and insulting to women. - A lot of people don't think the cartoon is pornography. A lot of men don't think the cartoon is pornography. - If you think it is pr0n then I think it would be nice if you rather provided some other pictures. A sheared sheep or a tree losing its leaves have been suggested. Joe Drew (iirc) provided an offer, valid two months as of a couple of hours ago that he'd make the program themeable if somebody provided graphics. If you actually _do_ something about the graphics, you are helping. Just saying this shouldn't be packaged because it objectifies women doesn't change the world. I ask a friend of mine to send me the same kind of pictures of a man, so I hope I'll have a patch to hot-babe in two days. I am not saying I don't believe you, I am just surprised that you seem to feel objectified and pressured by a silly little cartoon. They are confusing somethings when compares sexual discrimination with any other kind of. Be a women is not a religion choice and is not a the same thing than choose a Desktop Manager. You are argumenting against equality. I'm a women but I have the same rights you have. Can you understand that? I'll paste here a part of a message from Hellen on Debian-women mailing list. I'm sure you will read and think a little bit about. It is also the type of discussion that deterred me from becoming involved in Debian for some time. http://lists.debian.org/debian-women/2004/12/msg00011.html Regards, Fernanda G Weiden `- -- Projeto Software Livre Mulheres http://mulheres.softwarelivre.org Os homens so ensinados a se desculpar por suas fraquezas. As mulheres, por sua fora. --Lois Wyse signature.asc Description: Esta =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E9?= uma parte de mensagem assinada digitalmente
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 01:32:26AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 19:03:59 -0600, John Goerzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: You are quite right. We cannot fight all battles for everyone. Let's make an operating system. And stop trying to censor data and make sure our users are only exposed to RightThink. We should stop being the morL guardians of the free world, and let licenses, and what is legal to distribute, govern what goes in Debian. And there you go with the red herring. Nobody is suggesting censorship. Debian has made decisions about what we include and exclude in our OS for years. Would you suggest we are censoring because we don't include all of Project Gutenberg in main? Or because we don't include every GPL'd package on Freshmeat? To simply not include something in a package we deliver has nothing to do with censorship. Censorship is preventing people from being able to say or access material, and we are not doing that. (Though we do distribute tools that can, such as chastity-list and squidguard.) People are quite able to access this material, or other matierial, using Debian, on their own. -- John
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 03:05:53AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: But the nudy cartoons would, especially in the hand of a minor. As far as I know, we are not selling to minors. There are Then you are extremely out of touch. I believe we have minors as developers. I was a minor when I first joined as a developer, at any rate, and I have personally given copies of Debian to many minors that have installed and run it successfully. And I know that I am not alone in that. tings in Debian already that may not be suitable material for minors in the first place. Saying we're already doing this is completely irrelevant to the question is it right. -- John
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 01:48:09AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: Who gets to decide for each case? Usually it is the person who The ftpmasters, for starters. does the work who makes the decision -- the packager, in this case. The only way to override that is call in the tech ctte -- but this is not a technical issue. Yup, a GR for each case. No, the ftpmasters can.
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 12:28:20PM -0200, Fernanda Giroleti Weiden wrote: It is also the type of discussion that deterred me from becoming involved in Debian for some time. http://lists.debian.org/debian-women/2004/12/msg00011.html Indeed, and in addition to the powerful legal arguments, this is another powerful argument. If our goal is to advance the cause of a Free operating system, then why should we be including, in our OPERATING SYSTEM, images that serve no useful purpose, and instead alienate millions or billions of people worldwide? How does this advance our stated priorities: our users and Free Software? Does anyone seriously think that we are being a disservice to users because we don't have porn integrated into the operating system? Does anyone seriously think that including these particular images would be such an overwhelming benefit? Regardless of our personal opinions on this particular question, the fact remains that it is deeply offensive to many people. This is not the right way to show people that Free Software is the way to go. By all means, let's be open and inclusive and accept Free software from everywhere and users from everywhere. But at the same time, we don't have to accept images from everywhere nor any developer that knocks at our door. This is not our fight. Let's fight for Free Software, and let others battle this one out. -- John
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thursday 02 December 2004 04:01 am, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 02:40:47 -0600, Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: John was taking Manoj's reasoning to the limit. Yup. Arguing by the extremes, while intriguing to some, is extremely jejune. manoj -- I HATE arbitrary limits, especially when they're small. Stephen Savitzky Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C What an ironic sig :)
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Em Qui, 2004-12-02 s 05:45, Manoj Srivastava escreveu: First of all, it's a sexist package, sure. Putting a program on Debian in which you have pictures of nude women is VERY agressive to the most women. Yes, it's agressive to me. As already written in -women, this is the point which saddens me the most in this thread. I'm really disappointed by seeing most contributors just not realize why this package, as proposed, is likely to hurt the feelings of several women (probably not all, I don't know) as well as, indirectly or not, some men. Packages can hurt feelings, yes. vi hurts mine. The bible hurts other peoples. purity-off also hurt a lot of peoples feelings. Can't please everyone. There are over 15k packages in debian. Some of them surely hurt the sensibilities of a lot of people. Get over it. I have had to. Packages can hurts feelings? It's your big conclusion about it? Don't matters for you the obvious detail about gender equality? Are you thinking to choose to be catholic is the same choice I did when I was born? Sorry, but it's so stupid to me. Regards, Fernanda -- Projeto Software Livre Mulheres http://mulheres.softwarelivre.org Os homens so ensinados a se desculpar por suas fraquezas. As mulheres, por sua fora. --Lois Wyse signature.asc Description: Esta =?ISO-8859-1?Q?=E9?= uma parte de mensagem assinada digitalmente
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
* John Goerzen ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 12:28:20PM -0200, Fernanda Giroleti Weiden wrote: It is also the type of discussion that deterred me from becoming involved in Debian for some time. http://lists.debian.org/debian-women/2004/12/msg00011.html If our goal is to advance the cause of a Free operating system, then why should we be including, in our OPERATING SYSTEM, images that serve no useful purpose, and instead alienate millions or billions of people worldwide? How does this advance our stated priorities: our users and Free Software? Does anyone seriously think that we are being a disservice to users because we don't have porn integrated into the operating system? Does anyone seriously think that including these particular images would be such an overwhelming benefit? I agree with this and is why I was suggesting that someone draft up some language which outlines, for the benefit of our users, things they're not likely to find in Debian. I suppose that might end up being too difficult but I think it'd be good to have some criteria for packages to pass in order to be accepted which includes issues like these and is clear enough that our users understand it. Stephen signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 09:54:12AM -0500, Stephen Frost wrote: If our goal is to advance the cause of a Free operating system, then why should we be including, in our OPERATING SYSTEM, images that serve no useful purpose, and instead alienate millions or billions of people I agree with this and is why I was suggesting that someone draft up some language which outlines, for the benefit of our users, things they're not likely to find in Debian. I suppose that might end up being too difficult but I think it'd be good to have some criteria for packages to pass in order to be accepted which includes issues like these and is clear enough that our users understand it. Indeed, and this is also why Manoj's vi/KDE argument is not relevant. vi serves a useful purpose for an operating system. Porn/nudes/whatever don't. -- John
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Am 2004-12-02 08:44:34, schrieb David Weinehall: Really, she's 13, and you think it'd do any difference whatsoever to expose her to a pixelled image of a nude woman?! Sheesh. Either you've been shielding her completely (no TV, no advertisments, no magazines, no Internet), or you need a reality update. And if she does not like violence and naked people ? And publicity using half naked people is offensive !!! Worried parents should realise, that if their kids are old enough to administrate a Debian-machine to the level of installing their own She has an IQ enorm and will make her Lycee examen next year. 4 years before the others... She do not like to see everywhere naked People... It is TOO much ! Exhibiting of naked women is offensiv and disriminating. Even it is a cartoon. I hate mens using women as sexobjects... Regards: David Weinehall Greetings Michelle -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi 0033/3/8845235667100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On 02-Dec-04, 08:28 (CST), John Goerzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't forget that people can sue us -- and force us to mount a costly defence -- even if the law is on our side. They can do this no matter what we do. You may recently have heard of a company named SCO. I personally find hot-babe silly, at best. I can see that some might be offended - people often choose to offended in ways that baffle me. But if you're going to remove every package in Debian that might offend, or might be illegal somewhere, then there are many packages that are more problematic than hot-babe, starting with, as many have already pointed out, bible-kjv. I'm completely serious here: I think the general attitude promoted by the Christian Bible (and other religious texts), that is, promotion of intolerance, irrationality, and the supernatural over science and rational thought, is much more offensive and harmful to society that than a cartoon nipple. I've not previously objected to the inclusion of the Bible because I think that censorship is even worse. But if we, Debian, are going to go down that path, then that would be the first thing on my list. Steve -- Steve Greenland The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- seen on the net
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Ron Johnson, on 2004-12-02, 02:35, you wrote: Ok, let's look at case law: Yeah, non-us take two, now! Since US law does not affect other countries (at least until now, thank God) let's put such stuff into non-us. This server (I'd be happy to sponsor hardware and bandwith) could then be blocked by this homeland security ministry thingy so that noone could be subject to offense by painted naked women (errm, what's wrong with that anyway?). On the other hand, we in Germany have very effective measures against distributing Debian CD to minors (although German kids do know how naked women look like): those 30 tetris games in Debian have not been evaluated for being suitable for minors. Should I mass-file bugs to remove all tetris games from Debian now? No, definitely not. Maybe we should add some more fields to our Packages files. Something like: Package: hot-babe German-Min-Age: 16 Suitable-For-US-Kids: no Offensive-For-$RELIGION: yes [...] Apt-get could then decide whether to install a package or not. apt-get attorney could advise users which packages are legally installable depending on their location, age, religion and their affiliation with Weight Watchers. Use Debian to promote free software. For anything else, talk to your representatives to create respective laws. Then decide, freedom or censorship? Telling your kids what's right and what's wrong or just hiding that what you believe is wrong from them? Let silly US laws affect the whole world? Joerg -- Joerg joergland Wendland | http://www.wendlandnet.de/joerg/ GPG: 51CF8417 FP: 79C0 7671 AFC7 315E 657A F318 57A3 7FBD 51CF 8417
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Ron Johnson, on 2004-12-02, 02:13, you wrote: Are there any such FPS' in Debian? nethack is there, but the violence is imagined, not in your face. Now what is worse? Think about it. Joerg -- Joerg joergland Wendland | http://www.wendlandnet.de/joerg/ GPG: 51CF8417 FP: 79C0 7671 AFC7 315E 657A F318 57A3 7FBD 51CF 8417
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On 02-Dec-04, 02:13 (CST), Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Encourage? No. But when he gets old enough to be interested in girls, and especially naked girls, he's going to do it on his own. So you're abdicating your responsibility as a parent to teach your child how to be safe and sane in his sex life? Fantastic. (Not that I think hot-babe is particularly educational. I'm just sad that so many American adults are so scared of the human body that they find a silly cartoon threatening.) Steve -- Steve Greenland The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- seen on the net
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On 02-Dec-04, 02:23 (CST), Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No. Everywhere (or just about everywhere) in the US, it is illegal to give porn to a minor. If hot-babe is porn, then so is pretty much any issue of Cosmopolitan, quite a few photography magazines, and about every third issue of the New Yorker. Steve -- Steve Greenland The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- seen on the net
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Maciej Dems, on 2004-12-02, 00:39, you wrote: It solves only one-small-package-problem, not the more general issue. So what are the common moral values of 1100 plus Debian Developers from all over the world? My suggestion (though I am not a DD) is to create the archive simmilar to non-us, called eg. controversial (ok, its bad name - let somebody find the other) and put there the stuff which fits (precisely defined) criteria. My first proposition for them is: erotic (eg. hot-babe), religious (bible) and pollitical (anarchist faq) content. To pick up Manoj's arguments, vi and emacs would go into controversial, too. The criteria should be accepted by GR or some appropriate commitee. This way DD could decide in the most eficient way whether they want to have debian legal in arabic countries or not (it is probably not possible to make debian legal in every country in the world, nor it is a good thing, so the common sense in this matter should be decided in the democratic way) Can there be common sense regarding such issues? Although I'm not studying philosophy, I think not. Joerg -- Joerg joergland Wendland | http://www.wendlandnet.de/joerg/ GPG: 51CF8417 FP: 79C0 7671 AFC7 315E 657A F318 57A3 7FBD 51CF 8417
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On 02-Dec-04, 02:35 (CST), Ron Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Note the lewd exhibition of the genitals. Note the word genitals. Now look again at the cartoon in hot-babe. Steve -- Steve Greenland The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- seen on the net
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Christian Perrier, on 2004-12-02, 07:53, you wrote: As already written in -women, this is the point which saddens me the most in this thread. I'm really disappointed by seeing most contributors just not realize why this package, as proposed, is likely to hurt the feelings of several women (probably not all, I don't know) as well as, indirectly or not, some men. Go, install bible-kjv. Read it until you find the first offensive passage that hurts the feelings of several women. Won't take you long... Joerg -- Joerg joergland Wendland | http://www.wendlandnet.de/joerg/ GPG: 51CF8417 FP: 79C0 7671 AFC7 315E 657A F318 57A3 7FBD 51CF 8417
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On 02-Dec-04, 03:47 (CST), Kevin Mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How would a bug report about 'this packages offends me because of $SOME_REASON' be handled?' about say vi? I would think what a nimrod and close the bug. Well, unless $SOME_REASON was it ate my file when I entered the ':wq' command, which would be offensive, I agree. Steve -- Steve Greenland The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- seen on the net
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On 01-Dec-04, 15:49 (CST), Brian May [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is different from the Bible - if you find the bible offensive you don't have to install it. If you find hot-babe offensive, you don't have to install it. If you don't want your kids to install nude pictures, they might find it on a source you hadn't anticipated (a Debian CD of all things) and install it without your permission. If you don't want your kids to read the bible, they might find it on a source you hadn't anticipated (a Debian CD of all things) and install it without your permission. Okay, I give up: which argument are promoting? Steve -- Steve Greenland The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- seen on the net
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Am 2004-12-02 16:28:34, schrieb Arne Götje (?): On Thursday 02 December 2004 16:21, Ron Johnson wrote: anything that promotes free speech is pretty vague, but, for example, the PRC might not allow crypto s/w. Thus, maybe non-US may need to be renamed non-PRC? They do allow crypto s/w, AFAIK. At least none of my friends got detained yet. :o) In Iran too... I use it daily to communicate wit Teheran and Khoy. Cheers Arne Greetings Michelle -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi 0033/3/8845235667100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On 02-Dec-04, 08:28 (CST), Fernanda Giroleti Weiden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, Em Qui, 2004-12-02 ??s 07:46, Tollef Fog Heen escreveu: * Helen Faulkner | Pornography is widely regarded as being demeaning and insulting to women. - A lot of people don't think the cartoon is pornography. A lot of men don't think the cartoon is pornography. A lot of women don't think the cartoon is pornography, either. (Okay, my sample of 3 is small. But none of them considered pornography. Two voted for silly, possibly amusing for a short while, the other kind of stupid.) Amazingly, not all women believe that any depiction of the naked human body is automatically pornography and offensive. Steve -- Steve Greenland The irony is that Bill Gates claims to be making a stable operating system and Linus Torvalds claims to be trying to take over the world. -- seen on the net
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Am 2004-12-02 15:54:16, schrieb Joerg Wendland: Maybe we should add some more fields to our Packages files. Something like: Package: hot-babe German-Min-Age: 16 Suitable-For-US-Kids: no Offensive-For-$RELIGION: yes [...] Then 'apt-get' works like GOOGLE with content filters for each country. Nice Idea... Use Debian to promote free software. For anything else, talk to your representatives to create respective laws. Then decide, freedom or censorship? Telling your kids what's right and what's wrong or just hiding that what you believe is wrong from them? Let silly US laws affect the whole world? cat USA /dev/null Joerg Greetings Michelle -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi 0033/3/8845235667100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
Hello Hamish, Am 2004-12-02 23:44:21, schrieb Hamish Moffatt: Including this package would seem to ultimately reduce our freedom to distribute the Debian OS (ie, to minors, as well as possibly to some parts of the world). I can't see how that is desirable. I have a full Debian-Mirror at home and the need to check Packages which I include in a reduced Debian-CD-Distri. I have found many Debian-Packages not suitable for IRAN and some other islamic countries. Some of the islamic countries like Turkey, Jordania and Morocco are very liberal and there is no problem to distribute packages like hot-babe, but I like see this package as cpuloadanim or something like this, using neutral pics/sprites as theme and let the $USER choose to download new themes FROM THE NET freely. I think that including this package makes us look immature. ... Hamish Greetings Michelle -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi 0033/3/8845235667100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 09:03:18AM -0600, John Goerzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Indeed, and this is also why Manoj's vi/KDE argument is not relevant. vi serves a useful purpose for an operating system. Porn/nudes/whatever don't. What about the bible, then ? Mike
Re: New method for Packages/Sources file updates
Thiemo Seufer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Goswin von Brederlow wrote: [snip] With cumulative patches you run into the problem that you need a new cummulative patch for every day that contains most of what the previous one did. That realy quickly becomes a space issue. Errm, no, it doesn't need _one_ new cumulative patch. All the previously made cumulative diffs need to be updated. I was thinking of a -1day.diff -2day.diff -3day.diff ... So every day a new file appears at the end and contains most of what all the others already contain. Updating those cummulative diffs is also either inefficient (cat the daily diffs together), That wouldn't be a cumulative diff. very hard (figure out how to make a minimal diff from the daylies) or you need every days Packages file (apt-dupdate does that). It is not very hard to re-diff a few files to incorporate the changes between old and new Packages file. Then how do you do it? If you don't store the Packages files then all you have are the diffs. That means you have a series of remove x-y and insert 'text' @ x blocks. I don't call it simple to figure out all the overlaps and to generate new delete and insert blocks for it. Is there any program in Debian to do this for ed script style diffs? Having to store and diff every past days Packages file is a huge resource drain and can't be done for more than a couple of days, maybe up to 2 weeks. You don't need to store it. Ask the apt-dupdate author for how long it takes every night and how much disk space it uses. If that's true, then apt-dupdate is an example how to not do it. I've yet to see something better to create the diffs. If we assume to hold 14 update cycles, have a cutoff if the size of the cumulative diff exceeds the size of the Packages file, and have linear growth of the diffs, then the additional space used is at most seven times the size of the Packages file. Normally it will be much less, because large archives don't thend to change that quickly. 14 update cycles is a limitation on the process and isn't needed with sorted Packages files. It is not a hard limit, and to speedup exorbitant numbers of update cycles isn't needed except for pathologic cases. Also how do you get 'seven times'? ... linear growth of the diffs ... Ahh, sorry. Reasonable assumption. ... Thiemo MfG Goswin
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, 02 Dec 2004 12:54:06 -0200, Fernanda Giroleti Weiden [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Em Qui, 2004-12-02 às 05:45, Manoj Srivastava escreveu: First of all, it's a sexist package, sure. Putting a program on Debian in which you have pictures of nude women is VERY agressive to the most women. Yes, it's agressive to me. As already written in -women, this is the point which saddens me the most in this thread. I'm really disappointed by seeing most contributors just not realize why this package, as proposed, is likely to hurt the feelings of several women (probably not all, I don't know) as well as, indirectly or not, some men. Packages can hurt feelings, yes. vi hurts mine. The bible hurts other peoples. purity-off also hurt a lot of peoples feelings. Can't please everyone. There are over 15k packages in debian. Some of them surely hurt the sensibilities of a lot of people. Get over it. I have had to. Packages can hurts feelings? It's your big conclusion about it? Don't matters for you the obvious detail about gender equality? Are If you think that a silly cartoon affects gender equality, I suspect you are being over sensitive about things. Yes, this package is in bad taste, and may offend people. I personally think this whole issue has been overblown, but hey. you thinking to choose to be catholic is the same choice I did when I was born? Choosing to be offended by what other people do is a choice. Sorry, but it's so stupid to me. It is sooo nice to hear about your feelings. manoj -- Excuse me, but didn't I tell you there's NO HOPE for the survival of OFFSET PRINTING? Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 23:38:29 +1100, Hamish Moffatt [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 04:19:48PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 09:06:18 +1100, Hamish Moffatt [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 03:30:24PM -0200, Everton da Silva Marques wrote: It's VERY oppressive to force hot-babe out of Debian because of personal feelings about nudity. It's pure anti-speech insanity leading the way to socialism. How about we leave it out because it's crap, then? From all accounts, it seems to be a well done piece of software -- just its choice of images is an issue. Really? To me it seems trivial and almost useless. More so than the other cpu monitors in Debian? And I have read peoples descriptions on how well it fuges from one image to the next. Seems as useful as the next CPU monitor, and probably far more titillating than most Why bother linking the images with the system load? Just set up an applet to display porn and get on with it. I can see how you view this, and what your predilections might be. Bit perhaps that is not the major intent of the author or the users? Why stop at cartoons? Once it's themable, we should ship some photographs too. And don't worry about the load monitoring, let's just ship some porn for the sake of it. Call it test data for pornview or something. Hmm. I would like some Raphael budes, yes. and some studies by michelangelo too. Oh, you think that is not porn? I think calling the hot-babe package and images 'art' is a bit farfetched. So people said about cubism when it was first introduced. Art, like beauty, lies in the eyes of the beholder. Or are you a member of the culture mafia? manoj -- Laetrile is the pits. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 12:28:20PM -0200, Fernanda Giroleti Weiden [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi all, Em Qui, 2004-12-02 às 07:46, Tollef Fog Heen escreveu: * Helen Faulkner | Pornography is widely regarded as being demeaning and insulting to women. - A lot of people don't think the cartoon is pornography. A lot of men don't think the cartoon is pornography. 1. Please don't think for other women than yourself, thanks for the others. 2. Please take a look into a dictionary for the definition of pornography. Mike
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 13:24:34 +0100, Andreas Barth [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: * Christian Perrier ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [041202 08:15]: As already written in -women, this is the point which saddens me the most in this thread. I'm really disappointed by seeing most contributors just not realize why this package, as proposed, is likely to hurt the feelings of several women (probably not all, I don't know) as well as, indirectly or not, some men. I have indeed no intention for objection this package in any matter. I'd just hope that the maintainer proposing it realizes that, though he personnally doesn't think so, his work may hurt some people. Legal nitpicking is another issue, which I personnally do not consider the most important one, indeed. The package is currently sexist, in my opinion. I just hope that saying this loud enough will make the maintainers change their mind. If it does not, well the result will be another sexist thing in free software. I someday wish I had an opportunity to talk of this with Bruno Bellamy, by the way (the artist whose drawings are used in this package). His artwork (and good work) is widely used in the free software community in France and (personal opinion, still) may sometime ring this bell of sexism. I think you described the important issues quite well. Making a good distribution is more than just upload any package which you legally could. There is no argument against excellence in packaging, and maintenance. Who decides which one of the CPU monitors is one two many? Why should that opinion hold more sway than others? manoj -- Timing must be perfect now. Two-timing must be better than perfect. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
Am 2004-12-02 02:44:58, schrieb Andrew M.A. Cater: I stand by this one :) If you look at the history books: Frederick Barbarossa had a multi-cultural court in Sicily with Christian, Islamic and Jewish scholars around. Arabic Spain had no particular problem with Jews or Christians. The Koran suggests some degree of religious tolerance for peoples of the Book as I understand it. The Bible text is therefore probably relatively unproblematic: apostasy from Islam, however, is a serious offence and any perceived attempt at conversion may be poorly viewed. Thanks :-) Look at the history of the sack of Jerusalem in 1099 from the chronicles of the Second Crusade - people boasting of wading in blood - and you'll see that at least some of the anti-Christian/Crusader hatred was well founded in fact at the time. :-( Apropos the situation currently in force in various countries round the world and each countries national restrictions: it is appropriate for citizens and non-citizens to obey the law of the country they are in. And if I think, that I can not visit the USA because I am a Moudjahidine... I am awaiting prison... nice country the USA. Some of my friends are missing sinc 9/11 and they are Iranien. FBI, CIA and Homeland Security has done a good job to recrute new terrorists... Then distributing of porn journals in Iran to destabilize the Gouvernement... If you are in Iran/Saudi Arabia/Myanmar/any other country you should behave with respect and live appropriately by that country's laws as far as this is possible. The Debian Project can't legislate for random country: if, as Michelle Konzac says, nudity and pornography is viewed very severely in Iran - that is a matter for the Iranians using Debian in Iran. If that means producing a partial mirror / remastering CD's to meet local conditions and disseminating Debian in accordance with local laws and customs, so much the better. That's a matter for local Debian users to manage and they are best placed to advise. But this can only be managed form outside Iran... not IN iran. And this is what I do curently, but too much work for me alone... ...and I was not able to create my own Jigdo-Templates. Note: Curently I am in Strasbourg but planing to migrate next year to Morocco and my New family :-) If random package can't be sent to Iran/random country the Debian maintainer should perhaps place an entry in the package description explaining why. The GPG entry has something of this sort in it, explaining that mere possession of cryptography may be illegal in some countries. Greetings Michelle -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi 0033/3/8845235667100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 08:28:23 -0600, John Goerzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 01:30:48AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 19:34:06 -0600, John Goerzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Wed, Dec 01, 2004 at 05:53:08PM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 23:32:18 +, Will Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: And we have no time to set up i judgement over content -- there is a clear criteria for inclusion of packages in Debian already. We have no need to. We can collectively make reasonable decisions without having to set up a constitional authority to do so. At this point, there is no mechanism by which we can try and exclude packages out of debian which offend one (believe me on this. vi would have been long gone otherwise). The only thing you can do is either convince all the ftp-masters not to process it, or get a Well that's a mechanism, the ftp masters frequently reject things. I would be surprised if ftp-masters let personal feeling about content interfere with their official duties -- I am not aware of this being the case. I have heard cases where packages were refused on license grounds. A lot of people find various things in debian objectionable. Others do not. And people finding this package illegal -- I'm sorry, I do not see a clearcut argument that has so convinced me. Indeed, I am pretty sure that the images in this package are not illegal to distribute, either on a website (I have seen several urls posted), not as a package. Feel free to proce (not just offer opinions that I might be) wrong. But your argument was not limited to this particular package. You also argued that we should not be limiting ourselves by things that some find objectionable, and extended the question into other nude images Right. I can imagine a set of background images based on oil paintings by old dutch masters, for example. . I am simply saying that these things can be illegal indeed. I have yet to be shown that. And if you think that we are safe in this instance because it looks fine to us, think again. All it takes is one Southern prosecutor up for re-election to go after all the vile scum porn perpetrators on the Internet for us to be in what is sure to be a draining legal fight, even if we do wind up victorious. That, or one offended parent. Seems like FUD to me. The prosecutor can go for sex.6, Don't forget that people can sue us -- and force us to mount a costly defence -- even if the law is on our side. So even following the law may not help, and we should cover in fear cause people may sue us? Hell, Steve Ballmer says even using Linux can cause law suits -- so shall we close shop and fold out of the picture? If not, then your arguments about it being impossible to set a line are moot. Rubbish. We set the line at illegal content, and by that criteria, this is not illegal to distribute, and hence hot-babe is in. And yet, at the same time, were you not saying we couldn't do that because parochial laws differ? In this instance, by whose laws are we determining that it's legal? Well, all kinds of international patent laws says using linux may be illegal. Are we to heed those people as well? remember that the organization that holds Debian's legal assets, SPI, is incorporated in the United States and is subjected to United States laws. SPI does not govern Debian's behaviour. True enough, but the fact that it's incorporated in the United States makes it subject to US law. That makes it easy to be sued, assets (read: machines) siezed, etc. This can happen merely cause they are using Linux, and infringing on hundereds pf patents. Your point? Have you any proof the content is illegal to distribute? Seems like it has been up and around for a while. Indeed, material even worse than that is present on web sitres situated in the US. Seems to me that this is mere FUD, trying to prevent expression of artistry you are offended by. I am only objecting to it being included in Debian. Oh, sure. Object away. I object to vi too. It is extremely difficult to prove whether or not such a thing is illegal in the U.S. because: 1) laws differ based on location, and 2) it's a subjective question a judge has to answer, and 3) judges have different subjective taste. It is relatively easy to come to the conclusion that Linux itself violates at least some of the patents that think tank came up with a list of. So, in all probability, using Linux without licencing the patents is illegal too. When it comes down to it, though, neither of us are lawyers and thus are not really qualified to speak about it. Yup. The sky is falling. What I am saying is that there is no reason to take the risk. If you claim there is no line we can draw, then if we agree with you, there is no reason to keep
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On Fri, Dec 03, 2004 at 01:04:50AM +0900, Mike Hommey wrote: On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 09:03:18AM -0600, John Goerzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Indeed, and this is also why Manoj's vi/KDE argument is not relevant. vi serves a useful purpose for an operating system. Porn/nudes/whatever don't. What about the bible, then ? If it has to be removed for the sake of consistency, then remove it. It's available from plenty of other sources. -- John
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Stephen Frost [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: * John Goerzen ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 12:28:20PM -0200, Fernanda Giroleti Weiden wrote: It is also the type of discussion that deterred me from becoming involved in Debian for some time. http://lists.debian.org/debian-women/2004/12/msg00011.html If our goal is to advance the cause of a Free operating system, then why should we be including, in our OPERATING SYSTEM, images that serve no useful purpose, and instead alienate millions or billions of people worldwide? How does this advance our stated priorities: our users and Free Software? Does anyone seriously think that we are being a disservice to users because we don't have porn integrated into the operating system? Does anyone seriously think that including these particular images would be such an overwhelming benefit? I agree with this and is why I was suggesting that someone draft up some language which outlines, for the benefit of our users, things they're not likely to find in Debian. I suppose that might end up being too difficult but I think it'd be good to have some criteria for packages to pass in order to be accepted which includes issues like these and is clear enough that our users understand it. I also agree with this, and think your proposal would be very useful. I don't think the package in question furthers our production of a free software operating system in any way. - -- Roger Leigh Printing on GNU/Linux? http://gimp-print.sourceforge.net/ Debian GNU/Linuxhttp://www.debian.org/ GPG Public Key: 0x25BFB848. Please sign and encrypt your mail. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Processed by Mailcrypt 3.5.8 http://mailcrypt.sourceforge.net/ iD8DBQFBr0JWVcFcaSW/uEgRAi2lAKDZNlt6CfOWTFZXMnWpop9gfRnK5QCfQFlI 3KQbk8/OFAqErnx9IR4pz9Q= =Cyqa -END PGP SIGNATURE-
ldap - a completely new method for fetching lists of packages?
hey folks, in the past year or so i've been spending a fair amount of time with ldap. a while back, the thought occurred to me, why not put the list of available packages in ldap? so.. i did that. i found if you put a timestamp with the package on its way way into the ldap tree, you could then do ridiculously fast queries on what's new. this could lead to exponentially faster apt-get updates if a compatible method were added to apt. anyway, it's not horribly useful as it stands now, but it's a pretty neat proof of concept. if you're interested: ldap server ip: 130.58.64.9, port 3389 base dn: dc=debianpackages,dc=swarthmore,dc=edu please, please treat this machine politely. it's my workstation and i have no qualms with turning off slapd if it's getting in the way :) a sample from the ldap tree: dc=debianpackages,dc=swarthmore,dc=edu cn=dists cn=sarge cn=sid cn=woody cn=contrib cn=non-free cn=main cn=binary-i386 debPackage=3dchess you'll notice that this is almost an exact copy of the directory hiearchy on an ftp site. probably not necessary, but i needed something to start with. i actually set this up a few months back, and then proceeded to completely forget i had done it. given all the talk lately of a new packages method, however, i not only remembered, but felt compelled to at least mention it. btw, and haven't touched it in a while so the packages list hasn't been updated since then. anyway, feedback and thoughts are welcome. sean -- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 03:08:20AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: people. fortunes-off likewise. And the bible is insulting, with its presumption of godliness of false gods, is offensive to anyone not of the judea-christian-islamic bent of mind. Krishna is Jesus, dumbass.
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 08:31:43 -0600, John Goerzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 01:32:26AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: On Wed, 1 Dec 2004 19:03:59 -0600, John Goerzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: You are quite right. We cannot fight all battles for everyone. Let's make an operating system. And stop trying to censor data and make sure our users are only exposed to RightThink. We should stop being the morL guardians of the free world, and let licenses, and what is legal to distribute, govern what goes in Debian. And there you go with the red herring. It is not a red herring. It is all subjective -- is it legal? or not? Is it porn? or not? Is it art? or not? Is it useful? or not? Personal taste and opinions are leading the charge against this package. Nobody is suggesting censorship. Debian has made decisions about what we include and exclude in our OS for years. Right. And the decision has been made by developers choosing to spend their time packaging stuff they want included. No one orders people to package things. And so far, despite purity, despite offensive fortunes, despite sex.6, Would you suggest we are censoring because we don't include all of Project Gutenberg in main? Or because we don't include every GPL'd package on Freshmeat? Has someone tried to package that, and been told not to? Based on content, or technical issues like archive space requirements? manoj -- A stitch in time saves nine. Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Debian Weekly News Letter RSS Feed
hi alex, * Alexander Wirt [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2004-12-02 13:54]: Hi guys, I found some time to set up a rss feed for the dwn, try: http://people.debian.org/~formorer/dwn/dwd.rss Have fun thanks, i like it. regards nico -- Nico Golde - [EMAIL PROTECTED] | GPG: 1024D/73647CFF [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.ngolde.de VIM has two modes - the one in which it beeps and the one in which it doesn't signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activitymonitor
On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 13:18:16 +0100, David Weinehall [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: While being all for that series of pictures (nature is beautiful), I find the package pretty meaningless anyway, so I don't see the point of including it in Debian in the first place. I do, however, see some relevance to the discussions. It is a CPU monitor. I have three different things running that can show CPU usage -- gkrellm, wmcpu and some multi-function wm-monitor whose name escapes me. I happen to have all the cpu monitors I can use, and I have selected these three out of a list. I am not so sanguine as to assume that my choices would be enough for everyone else, and try and impose my selection on others. At least one user has expressed interest in the package on this very list. manoj -- Well begun is half done. Aristotle Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
Re: Bug#283578: ITP: hot-babe -- erotic graphical system activity monitor
On Thu, 2 Dec 2004 08:38:10 -0600, John Goerzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Thu, Dec 02, 2004 at 03:05:53AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: But the nudy cartoons would, especially in the hand of a minor. As far as I know, we are not selling to minors. There are Then you are extremely out of touch. Debian does not sell anything. Some people do; and perhaps they should be told that there is already content in Debian that is not suitable for children without parental guidance. And more may come. I believe we have minors as developers. I was a minor when I first joined as a developer, at any rate, and I have personally given copies of Debian to many minors that have installed and run it successfully. And I know that I am not alone in that. Now you ought to know better. tings in Debian already that may not be suitable material for minors in the first place. Saying we're already doing this is completely irrelevant to the question is it right. Hobbling a OS to fit the requirements of the lowest common denominator is worse. Hobbling a project that could provide value for adults to meet the needs of unsupervised children is also a shame. manoj -- Uh-oh!! I'm having TOO MUCH FUN!! Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C
