Re: Interactive package management via aptitude

[Chris Knadle]

On Monday, April 08, 2013 18:43:06, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 04:19:19AM +0800, Chow Loong Jin wrote:
> > Actually, in the event of aptitude not being able to resolve the
> > dependencies satisfactorily the first round (from aptitude install foo),
> > aptitude allows you
> 
> > to interactively pick other solutions, or tell it what to do:
> Have you been able to get that effect from aptitude?  It seems that
> whenever it sees some trouble (sometimes even when plain apt-get would
> succeed), it proposes to remove the world, install a few unrelated
> packages, and not do whatever you requested it to.  After declining a
> varying number of such "solutions", it gives up even if it would take a
> single action to resolve the problem.

I occasionally see behavior along these lines.  Often you can step through the 
solutions with "." and get to a reasonable solution, but sometimes it still 
doesn't get to one after (slowly) skipping through a hundred choices, with an 
unknown number of choices to go.  At that point it's obvious you need to do 
something else.

The typical place I see this are on Debian boxes in an abominable state that 
have lots of updates still not done, and have been customized and have several 
pacakges on hold.  For instance, one of the (ugly) boxes I help admin recently 
had 1000 pacakges yet to update and > 60 security packages not done, and not 
enough space on the box to do them.  Things like that can drive the aptitude 
package resolver crazy.  Usually the best option is to do upgrades in smaller, 
simpler steps that the resolver can tolerate.  i.e. the "divide and conquer" 
technique.  Sometimes I find that old config files left behind also bothers 
the resolver (i.e. packages removed but not purged) -- purging those helps.  
[The aptitude docs explain how to do this search.]

Even with this, aptitude is still my favorite package manager and I use it 
almost exclusively.

Note that there are command line options concerning the resolver with 
aptitude, and with options like --allow-new-upgrades and --allow-new-installs, 
or --full-resolver, etc... some of these may help what you're running into.

I don't use these because I do the "divide and conquer" appraoch, thus 
manually making things simpler for the resolver myself.

> I'm not sure if it makes sense to recommend aptitude in its present state.

I don't personally feel this way, but I can understand why you do.  It can 
sometimes be tricky to work around package conflicts.

  -- Chris

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Re: Interactive package management via aptitude

[Chow Loong Jin]

On 09/04/2013 06:43, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 04:19:19AM +0800, Chow Loong Jin wrote:
>> Actually, in the event of aptitude not being able to resolve the dependencies
>> satisfactorily the first round (from aptitude install foo), aptitude allows 
>> you
>> to interactively pick other solutions, or tell it what to do:
> 
> Have you been able to get that effect from aptitude?  It seems that
> whenever it sees some trouble (sometimes even when plain apt-get would
> succeed), it proposes to remove the world, install a few unrelated
> packages, and not do whatever you requested it to.  After declining a
> varying number of such "solutions", it gives up even if it would take a
> single action to resolve the problem.

Yeah, I have actually. It's just that the recent multiarch issues (which still
haven't been fixed) tend to lead to aptitude attempting to remove the whole
(foreign-arch) world. If none of the other decisions make sense, you're actually
able to prod aptitude in the right direction by supplying some extra operations
interactively at the [Y|n|q] prompt.

> I'm not sure if it makes sense to recommend aptitude in its present state.

I wouldn't recommend it when operating with multiarch enabled. Otherwise it's
mostly fine.

-- 
Kind regards,
Loong Jin



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Re: Interactive package management via aptitude

[Russ Allbery]

Adam Borowski  writes:
> On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 04:19:19AM +0800, Chow Loong Jin wrote:

>> Actually, in the event of aptitude not being able to resolve the
>> dependencies satisfactorily the first round (from aptitude install
>> foo), aptitude allows you to interactively pick other solutions, or
>> tell it what to do:

> Have you been able to get that effect from aptitude?  It seems that
> whenever it sees some trouble (sometimes even when plain apt-get would
> succeed), it proposes to remove the world, install a few unrelated
> packages, and not do whatever you requested it to.  After declining a
> varying number of such "solutions", it gives up even if it would take a
> single action to resolve the problem.

That's not my experience.  The first suggestion is sometimes wrong, but
usually if there is a valid approach (and sometimes there isn't), the
right solution will be in the first three, or more rarely in the first
five.

I use this functionality all the time, quite happily.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: Interactive package management via aptitude

[Adam Borowski]

On Tue, Apr 09, 2013 at 04:19:19AM +0800, Chow Loong Jin wrote:
> Actually, in the event of aptitude not being able to resolve the dependencies
> satisfactorily the first round (from aptitude install foo), aptitude allows 
> you
> to interactively pick other solutions, or tell it what to do:

Have you been able to get that effect from aptitude?  It seems that
whenever it sees some trouble (sometimes even when plain apt-get would
succeed), it proposes to remove the world, install a few unrelated
packages, and not do whatever you requested it to.  After declining a
varying number of such "solutions", it gives up even if it would take a
single action to resolve the problem.

I'm not sure if it makes sense to recommend aptitude in its present state.

-- 
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Re: Interactive package management via aptitude

[Charles Plessy]

Le Mon, Apr 08, 2013 at 06:02:27PM +0300, Eugene Lychauka a écrit :
> http://www.debian.org/releases/testing/amd64/release-notes/ch-whats-new.html#pkgmgmt
> 
> Here we can read:
> 
> "The preferred program for interactive package management from a
> terminal is aptitude. For a non-interactive command line interface for
> package management, it is recommended to use apt-get."
> 
> What is meant by interactive interface and non-interactive interface
> here? I understand it as typing "aptitude install foo" is
> non-interactive interface, and the text-user interface of aptitude
> launched by typing "aptitude" is interactive interface. Am I right?
> Some people assure me that not.

Hi Eugene,

The same text is found in Squeeze and Lenny's release notes, at the "What's new
in the distribution?" chapter.  Have you considered to propose to the
maintainers of the release notes to delete that part completely if you thing it
is confusing, since it brings no new information at all ?

Cheers,

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


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Re: Bug#705015: ITP: ie7-js -- help Internet Explorer behave like a standards-compliant browser

[Thomas Preud'homme]

Le lundi 8 avril 2013 23:35:42, David Prévot a écrit :
> Hi,
> 
> Le 08/04/2013 16:41, Jonas Smedegaard a écrit :
> > For general use I believe, however, that html5shiv has proven a better
> > shim.  It is part of Modernizr already packaged for Debian.
> 
> AFAICT, html5shiv is not in Debian, nor part of the modernizr package.
> Did I miss something?

Seems to be part of usr/share/javascript/modernizr/modernizr.js from line 1006 
onwards.

> 
> Regards
> 
> David

Best regards,

Thomas


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Re: Bug#705015: ITP: ie7-js -- help Internet Explorer behave like a standards-compliant browser

[David Prévot]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

Hi,

Le 08/04/2013 16:41, Jonas Smedegaard a écrit :

> For general use I believe, however, that html5shiv has proven a better 
> shim.  It is part of Modernizr already packaged for Debian.

AFAICT, html5shiv is not in Debian, nor part of the modernizr package.
Did I miss something?

Regards

David

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Re: Bug#705015: ITP: ie7-js -- help Internet Explorer behave like a standards-compliant browser

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Quoting John Paul Adrian Glaubitz (2013-04-08 21:45:34)
> On 04/08/2013 09:43 PM, Andrew Shadura wrote:
> > It's a shim. You provide the support for the missing features right 
> > on your website. When a user loads a page in IE7, this JavaScript 
> > detects this and enables replacement implementations of those 
> > things. Same as jQuery gives you a $ function, but here it's about 
> > redefining or overlaying existing features.
> 
> Makes sense and sounds pretty cool! Thanks for clearing that up!

Makes good sense to package this Javascript library for those packages 
currently embedding it.

For general use I believe, however, that html5shiv has proven a better 
shim.  It is part of Modernizr already packaged for Debian.

It might make sense to mention that in long description of this package.


 - Jonas

-- 
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 [x] quote me freely  [ ] ask before reusing  [ ] keep private


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Re: Interactive package management via aptitude

[Chow Loong Jin]

On 08/04/2013 23:02, Eugene Lychauka wrote:
> http://www.debian.org/releases/testing/amd64/release-notes/ch-whats-new.html#pkgmgmt
> 
> Here we can read:
> 
> "The preferred program for interactive package management from a
> terminal is aptitude. For a non-interactive command line interface for
> package management, it is recommended to use apt-get."
> 
> What is meant by interactive interface and non-interactive interface
> here? I understand it as typing "aptitude install foo" is
> non-interactive interface, and the text-user interface of aptitude
> launched by typing "aptitude" is interactive interface. Am I right?
> Some people assure me that not.

Actually, in the event of aptitude not being able to resolve the dependencies
satisfactorily the first round (from aptitude install foo), aptitude allows you
to interactively pick other solutions, or tell it what to do:

-- 
Kind regards,
Loong Jin



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Re: Bug#705015: ITP: ie7-js -- help Internet Explorer behave like a standards-compliant browser

[Matt Zagrabelny]

On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 2:29 PM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
 wrote:
> On 04/08/2013 09:23 PM, David Prévot wrote:
>>
>> The purpose would be to provide it, via a libjs-ie7, in order to be used
>> as a third party in other packages like spip. As such, I intend to
>> maintain it under the Debian Javascript umbrella.
>
>
> And how would I use it on Debian when there is no Internet Explorer 7
> available for non-Windows platforms? Wine?

I believe the HTTP server serves the .js to all clients (including
IE7.) In other words, this is a server solution for badly behaving
clients.

Correct me if I am wrong.

-mz


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Re: Bug#705015: ITP: ie7-js -- help Internet Explorer behave like a standards-compliant browser

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

On 04/08/2013 09:43 PM, Andrew Shadura wrote:

It's a shim. You provide the support for the missing features right on
your website. When a user loads a page in IE7, this JavaScript detects
this and enables replacement implementations of those things. Same as
jQuery gives you a $ function, but here it's about redefining or
overlaying existing features.


Makes sense and sounds pretty cool! Thanks for clearing that up!

Adrian

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Re: Bug#705015: ITP: ie7-js -- help Internet Explorer behave like a standards-compliant browser

[Andrew Shadura]

Hello,

On Mon, 08 Apr 2013 21:29:21 +0200
John Paul Adrian Glaubitz  wrote:

> On 04/08/2013 09:23 PM, David Prévot wrote:
> > The purpose would be to provide it, via a libjs-ie7, in order to be
> > used as a third party in other packages like spip. As such, I
> > intend to maintain it under the Debian Javascript umbrella.

> And how would I use it on Debian when there is no Internet Explorer 7 
> available for non-Windows platforms? Wine?

It's a shim. You provide the support for the missing features right on
your website. When a user loads a page in IE7, this JavaScript detects
this and enables replacement implementations of those things. Same as
jQuery gives you a $ function, but here it's about redefining or
overlaying existing features.

-- 
WBR, Andrew


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Re: Bug#705015: ITP: ie7-js -- help Internet Explorer behave like a standards-compliant browser

[David Prévot]

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Hi,

Le 08/04/2013 15:29, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz a écrit :

> And how would I use it on Debian when there is no Internet Explorer 7
> available for non-Windows platforms? Wine?

The purpose is to provide a web thingy, hosted on a Debian platform,
that even clients behind a legacy browser from non-free distribution can
see as they should if they were using a standards-compliant one.

Regards

David

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Re: Bug#705015: ITP: ie7-js -- help Internet Explorer behave like a standards-compliant browser

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

On 04/08/2013 09:23 PM, David Prévot wrote:

The purpose would be to provide it, via a libjs-ie7, in order to be used
as a third party in other packages like spip. As such, I intend to
maintain it under the Debian Javascript umbrella.


And how would I use it on Debian when there is no Internet Explorer 7 
available for non-Windows platforms? Wine?


Cheers,

Adrian

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Bug#705015: ITP: ie7-js -- help Internet Explorer behave like a standards-compliant browser

[David Prévot]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: David Prévot 

* Package name: ie7-js
  Version : 2.1~beta4
  Upstream Author : Dean Edwards 
* URL : http://code.google.com/p/ie7-js/
* License : MIT
  Programming Lang: JavaScript
  Description : help Internet Explorer behave like a standards-compliant 
browser

IE7.js is a JavaScript library to make Microsoft Internet Explorer
behave like a standards-compliant browser. It fixes many HTML and CSS
issues and makes transparent PNG work correctly under IE5 and IE6.



The purpose would be to provide it, via a libjs-ie7, in order to be used
as a third party in other packages like spip. As such, I intend to
maintain it under the Debian Javascript umbrella.

It is already embedded in dotclear, libjifty-perl and spip.


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Bug#705006: ITP: libtype-tiny-perl -- tiny, yet Moo(se)-compatible type constraint

[Jonas Smedegaard]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Jonas Smedegaard 

* Package name: libtype-tiny-perl
  Version : 0.000~09
  Upstream Author : Toby Inkster 
* URL : https://metacpan.org/release/Type-Tiny
* License : Artistic or GPL-1+
  Programming Lang: Perl
  Description : tiny, yet Moo(se)-compatible type constraint

 Type::Tiny is a tiny class for creating Moose-like type constraint
 objects which are compatible with Moo, Moose and Mouse.


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Re: Interactive package management via aptitude

[Chris Knadle]

On Monday, April 08, 2013 11:02:27, Eugene Lychauka wrote:
> http://www.debian.org/releases/testing/amd64/release-notes/ch-whats-new.htm
> l#pkgmgmt
> 
> Here we can read:
> 
> "The preferred program for interactive package management from a
> terminal is aptitude. For a non-interactive command line interface for
> package management, it is recommended to use apt-get."
> 
> What is meant by interactive interface and non-interactive interface
> here? I understand it as typing "aptitude install foo" is
> non-interactive interface, and the text-user interface of aptitude
> launched by typing "aptitude" is interactive interface. Am I right?

Yes.  aptitude has an interactive interface available, apt-get does not.

I think the point of the note in the release-notes is to point users to 
aptitude for an interactive terminal package manager, rather than dselect.

  -- Chris

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Bug#704997: ITP: cw-driver -- Driver and utilities for the Catweasel versatile floppy disk controller

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: John Paul Adrian Glaubitz 

* Package name: cw-driver
  Version : 0.14
  Upstream Author : Karsten Scheibler 
* URL : http://unusedino.de/cw/
* License : GPL-2
  Programming Lang: C
  Description : Driver and utilities for the Catweasel versatile floppy 
disk controller

cw is a package containing the driver and utilities for accessing floppy disks 
attached
to the Catweasel series of floppy disk controllers by Individual Computers. 
These controllers
are fully programmable and therefore allow reading and writing of a variety of 
floppy disk
formats. These currently include:
  .
  * Amiga 3.5" (880k, 1760k)
  * Apple Macintosh 3.5" (400k, 800k, 720k, 1440k)
  * MS-DOS 3.5" (720k, 1440k)
  * MS-DOS 5.25" (360k, 720k, 800k, 1200k)
  * ATARI ST 3.5" (360k, 720k, 800k, 1440k)
  * ATARI 800 XL 5.25" (130k, 180k)
  * Apple II 5.25" (140k)
  * Commodore 1541 5.25" (170k)
  * Commodore 1571 5.25" (170k, 341k)
  * Commodore 1581 3.5" (800k)
  * Catweasel Extra (1160k, 2380k)
  * Nintendo Backup Station 3.5" (1600k)
  .
The disks can be read and written using conventional DD/HD 3.5" and 5.25" 
floppy disk
drives using the cwtool disk utility provided in the cw package. The driver 
supports
the following Catweasel models:
  .
  * Catweasel Mk-II (IDE-type, connected to an IDE host)
  * Catweasel Mk-III Flipper (PCI)
  * Catweasel Mk-IV (PCI)
  * Catweasel Mk-IVplus (PCI)
  .
The driver supplied in the cw package supports the built-in floppy disk 
controller
only. Support for the on-board C64 sound chip (SID), the joystick ports and the
Amiga keyboard port, is provided by other driver packages, these include:
  .
  * catweasel: supports SID, joystick and Amiga keyboard ports - 
http://llg.cubic.org/cw/
  * cwfloppy: Catweasel floppy disk controller block device driver - 
http://www.soundtracker.org/raw/cwfloppy/
  * hardsid: supports HardSID cards and the SID chips on the Mk-III and IV 
Catweasels - http://hardsid.sourceforge.net/
  * hardsid-catweasel: reworked hardsid driver which supports the Catweasel 
Mk-IV only - https://bel.fi/alankila/hardsid-catweasel/
  * cw2dmk: utility to use the Catweasel floppy disk controller without a 
kernel driver - http://www.tim-mann.org/catweasel.html
  * hardsec_cw: fork of cw2dmk with additional supprt for hard-sectored disks - 
http://webpages.charter.net/thecomputercollection/hardsec_cw.tar.gz
  .
More information can be found in the README included in the tarball of the cw 
package.


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Interactive package management via aptitude

[Eugene Lychauka]

http://www.debian.org/releases/testing/amd64/release-notes/ch-whats-new.html#pkgmgmt

Here we can read:

"The preferred program for interactive package management from a
terminal is aptitude. For a non-interactive command line interface for
package management, it is recommended to use apt-get."

What is meant by interactive interface and non-interactive interface
here? I understand it as typing "aptitude install foo" is
non-interactive interface, and the text-user interface of aptitude
launched by typing "aptitude" is interactive interface. Am I right?
Some people assure me that not.

Thank you,

Eugene


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Re: upgraded systems won't boot from UUID volumes

[Daniel Pocock]

On 08/04/13 13:53, Wouter Verhelst wrote:
> On 08-04-13 08:53, Daniel Pocock wrote:
>> I'm not suggesting that squeeze systems were installed that way by
>> default, although people who have migrated an FS from a raw partition
>> to an LV may have this in fstab.
> And that fact alone makes it a non-RC bug -- if it's even a bug at all.
>
> Changing the way the root filesystem is mounted without performing a
> reinstallation is something that's fairly advanced. I'm not saying we
> shouldn't support people who wish to do something like that, but if they
> do it, they should make sure that whatever configuration they're using
> afterwards is still a valid configuration.
>
> Having a root filesystem on a logical volume, specified by UUID, is not
> strictly a valid configuration. It may work if you're not using
> snapshots, but it might have unforeseen consequences. So Don't Do That
> Then(TM).
>
> If Debian exhibits "wrong" behaviour upon encountering a "strange"
> configuration that, while valid, is not possible to generate using any
> of Debian's tools, then that is probably a bug; but I fail to see why it
> should be release-critical.
>
The coverage of UUID on the Debian wiki makes it seem like it is a good
idea to use it and makes no warning about the LVM snapshot issue:

  http://wiki.debian.org/fstab#UUIDs

  http://wiki.debian.org/Part-UUID

so maybe it would be good if somebody who knows this issue in more depth
than myself was to update that.

On 08/04/13 10:26, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> On 04/07/2013 10:46 PM, Neil Williams wrote:
>> The only reason to escalate the issue to
>> debian-devel is because you're trying to overrule the maintainers.
> Once more, I'd say... :/

Not necessarily - the maintainers know their package very well and I'm
sure they have good reasons for their decisions.  The wider community
may or may not have additional information about how widely this pattern
is used in practice.  Obviously, having commented on the bug, my own
systems are not even impacted by this any more, but I remain nervous
about how users will react if they find rough edges on things when
upgrading, especially given the wide choice of alternatives that exist
today.



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Re: upgraded systems won't boot from UUID volumes

[Wouter Verhelst]

On 08-04-13 08:53, Daniel Pocock wrote:
> I'm not suggesting that squeeze systems were installed that way by
> default, although people who have migrated an FS from a raw partition
> to an LV may have this in fstab.

And that fact alone makes it a non-RC bug -- if it's even a bug at all.

Changing the way the root filesystem is mounted without performing a
reinstallation is something that's fairly advanced. I'm not saying we
shouldn't support people who wish to do something like that, but if they
do it, they should make sure that whatever configuration they're using
afterwards is still a valid configuration.

Having a root filesystem on a logical volume, specified by UUID, is not
strictly a valid configuration. It may work if you're not using
snapshots, but it might have unforeseen consequences. So Don't Do That
Then(TM).

If Debian exhibits "wrong" behaviour upon encountering a "strange"
configuration that, while valid, is not possible to generate using any
of Debian's tools, then that is probably a bug; but I fail to see why it
should be release-critical.

-- 
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requires you to mail a form in triplicate, you can mail it just once,
add a voucher, and save on postage.



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Re: Multiple applications in one git repo

[Philip Hands]

Paul Wise  writes:

> On Mon, Apr 8, 2013 at 2:32 AM, Philip Hands wrote:
>
>> Might it be possible to do that with git-subtree, and then track the
>> application specific branch created by subtree as the upstream for each
>> package?
>
> I'm not familiar with this case, nor with git subtree but my favourite
> solution for multiple repositories is mr:
>
> http://packages.debian.org/sid/mr

Mr's cute, but that assumes that the repositories are separate, which
seems is not the case (well, not until someone splits it up, which I'd
say probably isn't necessary, or even useful, if you use git subtree).

With git subtree, the repository for all the applications would be the
same one that contains the all-encompassing master branch -- it's just
that you can split the history out for each contained application, into
its own branch, which also allows commits either to the master or the
application branches to be carried across easily in either direction.

It seems like a much closer fit than mr, since it would allow the
upstreams to continue with their "work on everything at once" approach,
while allowing the packagers to only worry about applications one at a
time.

This write-up seems to cover the subject nicely:

  http://log.pardus.de/2012/08/modular-git-with-git-subtree.html

Cheers, Phil.
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Re: upgraded systems won't boot from UUID volumes

[Thomas Goirand]

On 04/07/2013 10:46 PM, Neil Williams wrote:
> The only reason to escalate the issue to
> debian-devel is because you're trying to overrule the maintainers.
Once more, I'd say... :/

Thomas


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