date:20140811

On 12 August 2014 01:03, Kees de Jong  wrote:

> Are we really comparing RAM here as if it were the 90's?
>
I had stated previously XFCE had started showing memory usage similar to
gnome. This has quite obviously changed. I was wrong, and i'm posting it as
a correction to my statement.

I also just test installed all 4 DE's and am happy to run any further tests
required to reach a consensus.


> How many people here use Android? Today it needs 512 MB to function
> properly.
>
Linux+Java. Needs memory, surprise?


> In two years that could be 1 or 2 GB and that's a mobile OS.
>
It's Linux. It has a web browser. A modem. A wireless connection.
Bluetooth. GPS. Music Player, Photo viewer, wait this is sounding familiar.


> How much RAM does your browser use?
>
Lots, which is why i prefer my DE not to eat it all.

My Chrome/Firefox easily uses 1 GB
>
My GNOME 3.10 desktop (running Fedora now because I needed a modern GNOME
> version for Exchange support for work) is using about 800 MB to 1200 MB.
>
Ouch

Do I really care? No, because RAM is cheap and I have 8 GB. Do I need to
> buy more? No, because 8 GB is still more than enough.
>
free
totalused free
 sharedbuffers cached
Mem:12332856 12164516168340 129196
1002483989512
-/+ buffers/cache:8074756  4258100
Swap:3211260  129088  3082172
Maybe for you. (and my DE uses less than lxde and xfce, but with more
options and jazz+bugs). But that's me, i might be able to fit my own
memory, most people will not, they have to pay for that, and most would
have to remove memory to fit  more memory, hence making the cost more than
you imagined.

>
> If you can't run GNOME because you don't have the system specs to run a
> modern desktop then you can select XFCE/LXDE in the installation menu. But
> let's be fair, those people are a minority. And a default should fit the
> needs of the majority.
>
Ahh good you have statistics for that. Please link them, or quote and cite
sources.

>
> And since people easily have 4 GB of RAM or more these days with the basic
> 3D acceleration (even a Raspberry Pi can run GNOME 3) then I would say that
> logic chooses GNOME.
>
Some people like the 'basic 3d acceleration' for other things, so not only
do you want me to sacrifice my RAM to all powerful DE, but also my GPU? How
kind of you ;) . Also as the memory usage shows, a pi won't be doing much
more than starting gnome and going, oh look it's gnome.

> Also because of a ton of other reasons already mentioned e.g. systemd,
> documentation, dedicated maintainers, accessibility, etc.
>
OK that's a gnome+1 then. :)
TBH i'd rather hear what you like about gnome3, the workflow or anything
else that makes it 'stand out' from other DE's, or rather, worth a large
percentage of ram, especially if can surpass 1GB.
Thanks for the info.

Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Reintroducing FFmpeg to Debian

2014-08-11 Thread Matthias Urlichs

Hi,

wm4:
> Build something on a newer glibc system, and try to run the binary on
> an older system. It most likely won't work - even if it could in
> theory. (At least it was this way some years ago. Probably still is.)

What would be the point of introducing new or updated interfaces
if you then couldn't use them?

ABI backwards compatibility is not a goal I would want to spend any time
on. Forward compatibility, on the other hand …

> To be fair, FFmpeg does its own "manual" symbol versioning by appending
> increasing numbers to function names. But the real problem are not
> these functions, but public structs. Imagine a new API user fighting to
> guess which fields in AVCodecContext must be set, or which must not be
> set. Seasoned FFmpeg developers probably don't know the horror.
> 
That's reasonably easy – you add a function to allocate the structure for
you. That function sets a version field and/or initializes everything to
a sane default. Also, you never shrink the structure, or move fields.

Obviously, you also tell people to never ever embed the thing directly in
something else, assuming that you can't keep it opaque entirely.

Of course, it's only easy if you design your API that way from the
beginning …

> I think the largest issue with FFmpeg is actually that it's so
> low-level. Users usually have to connect the individual libraries
> themselves, and that is very error prone. Hell, even the official
> FFmpeg examples are buggy, and _all_ unofficial FFmpeg tutorials seem
> to be broken to hell.
> 
> I think there should be a higher-level FFmpeg library that takes care
> of these things.
> 
gstreamer-ffmpeg?

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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

2014-08-11 Thread Noel Torres

On Monday, 11 de August de 2014 16:34:04 Matthias Urlichs escribió:
> Hi,
> 
> Lennart Sorensen:
> > it needs buttons on windows that people expect to see where they expect
> > to see them
> 
> You mean left vs. right side?
> 
> > Would Debian be willing to make gnome3 have different defaults than
> > upstream in the interest of actually being useable to new users who are
> > used to other operating systems and desktops?
> 
> People who are so afraid of new stuff to learn that they won't even figure
> out how to close a window are not Gnome's (or XFCE's, for that matter)
> target audience.
> If you want that, install KDE and tell it to use one of the
> let's-mimic-Windows/MacOS themes.

I think we should not care about Gnome's target audience, but about Debian's 
target audience. Remember Debian Social Contract , #4.

Regards

er Envite


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Bug#756947: unble to re-enable wifi/bt after hardware or software disable

2014-08-11 Thread Alan Wilson

On Sat, 2014-08-09 at 16:22 +0200, Tomasz Nitecki wrote:
> Hey,
> 
> Can you please send that last email to bug tracker too? Anything you
> send to 756...@bugs.debian.org will show up in the web browsable version
> [1] which will allow more people to look into your problem. As a matter
> of fact, I might not be able to resolve it by myself and if so, I'll
> point you to the correct people who will also require this information.
> 
> 
> On 08/08/14 03:41, Alan Wilson wrote:
> > Bluetooth seems to be behaving itself since I re-installed the
> > firmware. It can be switched by both hardware and software back and
> > forth - behaves as it ought.
> 
> Good to hear :)
> 
> 
> > rfkill still has no effect on unblocking wifi if disabled via
> > software by trying to re-enable. However, it does leave wifi disabled
> > after resetting BIOS defaults,  which can then be re-enabled via
> > software - this is different.  Before, wifi would start enabled after
> > restart/BIOS reset.
> 
> Mhm, that (along the working bluetooth) suggests that there might
> be an issue with the ipw2200 driver itself.
> 
> Can you please tell me which version of firmware-ipw2x00 are you using?
> You can do it by running 'dpkg -s firmware-ipw2x00 | grep Version'. And
> please send that information to 756...@bugs.debian.org too.
> 
> 
> 
> Regards,
> T.
> 
> [1] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=756947
> 


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Bug#756947: unble to re-enable wifi/bt after hardware or software disable

2014-08-11 Thread Alan Wilson

Take two

On Sun, 2014-08-10 at 21:58 +0200, Tomasz Nitecki wrote:
> Hey,
> 
> 
> On 10/08/14 01:38, Alan Wilson wrote:
> > Hello,
> > 
> > dpkg -s firmware-ipw2x00 | grep Version returns:
> > 
> > 'Version: 0.36+wheezy.1'
> 
> Ok, that is the latest stable version.
> 
> 
> However, I see neither this nor your last message in the bug tracker. As
> far as I can tell, this one was CC'ed to '756...@bus.debian.org' instead
> of '756...@bugs.debian.org' (missing 'g'). Can you please send them once
> again to the correct address so I can send your bug to guys responsible
> for your wifi driver?
> 
> 
> Regards,
> T.
> 


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Desktop poll app [Was: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop]

2014-08-11 Thread Noel Torres

On Saturday, 9 de August de 2014 12:04:56 Axel Wagner escribió:
[...]
> I really think, in these kinds of discussions it would be helpfull to
> get some kind of direct community-feedback. This would help *both* sides
> in every of these discussions, because it would make it impossible for
> either side to claim a widely held opinion that can not be refuted
> easily. For example, if we could have a simple survey "do you prefer
> the experience of gnome 3 or xfce" which any dev/maintainer/user could

I have been thinking on this, and I have come with an idea. I admin possibly a 
stupid one, but I want to know what do you all think on it.

Imagine a Desktop application, than fires on start (on every desktop 
environment, maybe wxwidgets, I do not care just now) and on first desktop boot 
after install. It asks these questions:

1) (LOCALIZED) Would you want to help Debian by taking some surveys?
a) YES
b) NO

Only if YES

2) (LOCALIZED) Would you like to take the surveys in English, as soon as they 
are released, or wait until they are translated to your language?
a) English as soon as released
b) Wait 1 week for translation, english if not translated then
c) Wait 1 month for translation, english if not translated then
d) Only when (if ever) translated

After this simple per-user configuration, the app (ONLY if YES to question 1) 
will fire invisibly once a day and check some server via HTTPS (e.g. 
polls.debian.net) for polls and sets of answers. If any is found there, it is 
presented to the user, and if the user answers it (there will be an option of 
"I do not want to answer this poll" in every poll) the answer will be sent to 
the same server via HTTPS, where it will be stored anonymously. No userid, not 
even IP stored with the answers.

Do you like it?

er Envite


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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

2014-08-11 Thread Kees de Jong

Are we really comparing RAM here as if it were the 90's? How many people
here use Android? Today it needs 512 MB to function properly. In two years
that could be 1 or 2 GB and that's a mobile OS. How much RAM does your
browser use? My Chrome/Firefox easily uses 1 GB. My GNOME 3.10 desktop
(running Fedora now because I needed a modern GNOME version for Exchange
support for work) is using about 800 MB to 1200 MB. Do I really care? No,
because RAM is cheap and I have 8 GB. Do I need to buy more? No, because 8
GB is still more than enough.

If you can't run GNOME because you don't have the system specs to run a
modern desktop then you can select XFCE/LXDE in the installation menu. But
let's be fair, those people are a minority. And a default should fit the
needs of the majority. And since people easily have 4 GB of RAM or more
these days with the basic 3D acceleration (even a Raspberry Pi can run
GNOME 3) then I would say that logic chooses GNOME. Also because of a ton
of other reasons already mentioned e.g. systemd, documentation, dedicated
maintainers, accessibility, etc.

Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

XFCE:

 total   used   free sharedbuffers cached
Mem:506756 362468 144288   6568  22756 179264
-/+ buffers/cache: 160448 346308
Swap:   392188  0 392188


GNOME:

 total   used   free sharedbuffers cached
Mem:506756 500360   6396   1948840  37724
-/+ buffers/cache: 461796  44960
Swap:   392188  66672 325516


LXDE:

 total   used   free sharedbuffers cached
Mem:506756 316504 190252   8500  18920 149812
-/+ buffers/cache: 147772 358984
Swap:   392188  0 392188


KDE:

 total   used   free sharedbuffers cached
Mem:506756 499724   7032   6772  10516 109760
-/+ buffers/cache: 379448 127308
Swap:   392188  21632 370556


As default using the latest mini.iso with  mirror/udeb/suite=sid and using
the 'alternate desktop menu'
booted, logged in, loaded a terminal, here you go. notice the swap usage.
virtualbox vm 512MB

Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Reintroducing FFmpeg to Debian

2014-08-11 Thread Theodore Ts'o

On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 10:53:56PM +0200, wm4 wrote:
> 
> To be fair, FFmpeg does its own "manual" symbol versioning by appending
> increasing numbers to function names. But the real problem are not
> these functions, but public structs. Imagine a new API user fighting to
> guess which fields in AVCodecContext must be set, or which must not be
> set. Seasoned FFmpeg developers probably don't know the horror.

There are some best practices in API design; one of them is to
minimize public structs as much as possible.  Instead, have blind
pointers which are handed back by an "initialize object" function, and
then have setter/getter functions that allow you to fetch various
parameters or flags which modify how the object behaves.  This allows
you to add or deprecate new flags, configuration parameters, in a
relatively sane way.

I have this dream/fantasy where all of the energy over developing and
maintaining two forks was replaced by a spirit of cooperations and the
developers working together to design a new API from scratch that
could be guaranteed to be stable, and then applications migrated over
to use this stable, well-designed, future-proofed API.

Call me a naive, over-optimistic dreamer, but   :-)

(And, the yes, the new API probably should be a bit higher level.)

"Can we all just get along?" -- https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1sONfxPCTU0

  - Ted

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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Reintroducing FFmpeg to Debian

2014-08-11 Thread Michael Niedermayer

Hi

On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 09:10:23AM -0400, Reinhard Tartler wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 3:01 AM, Matthias Urlichs  wrote:
[...]
> > IMHO it's reasonable to expect core APIs to be upwards-compatible and keep
> > deprecated interfaces around for another release or two.
> 
> This is exactly what Libav is doing: The deprecation process for
> symbols, APIs, enums, etc. takes *years*, because so many software
> packages in Debian and else where use them, and it is so believably
> painful to change them. Just have a look at the last two Libav
> transitions, and the massive amount of patches it took to get packages
> fixed and eventually to get Debian to the new Libav release.

> 
> Now enter FFmpeg.
> 
> FFmpeg has a significant higher release frequency, (it seems to me
> about every 3-4 months), so that you would get a deprecation cycle
> that is considerably less than a year. In practice, the deprecation
> cycle more or less seems to match Libav's cycle, because at least
> right now, FFmpeg  tracks Libav's API. If that were not the case (and
> I promise you FFmpeg would stop tracking Libav as soon as it replaces
> Libav in Debian), I can almost guarantee [1] you that FFmpeg would
> very much prefer to resume to the deprecation cycle the project
> before: None, i.e., every piece of software is expected to keep up
> with FFmpeg's master branch for reasons Jean-Yves outlines.

These fears are unfounded and these predictions not only do not match
reality they also lack any reason or motive for FFmpeg. We would be
shooting us in our own foot if we randomly broke API or stopped
integrating improvments

It has always been my wish to provide the best multimedia software
to the world. And sure us including all improvments and bugfixes from
Libav is in line with that.

also you have write access to FFmpeg git ...

and iam happy to work together with andreas and anyone else on
debian lifecycle releases.
And you are certainly welcome too

[...]
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Michael GnuPG fingerprint: 9FF2128B147EF6730BADF133611EC787040B0FAB

When the tyrant has disposed of foreign enemies by conquest or treaty, and
there is nothing more to fear from them, then he is always stirring up
some war or other, in order that the people may require a leader. -- Plato

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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 10:40:04PM +0200, Michael Biebl wrote:

[snip]
> 
> Are you missing anything from the GNOME Classic mode *)? It offers
> exactly what you are asking for, with zero need for configuration.
> It's available right next to the GNOME session on your login manager.
> 
> Michael
> 
> *) GNOME Classic is GNOME Shell with a different set of extensions and a
> different default configuration. Imho also a great demonstration of the
> flexibility and extendability of the GNOME Shell infrastructure.

Were you asking me or Lennart?  Personally I prefer the "new" GNOME, but
with all 3 buttons enabled + the workspace grid extension.  The only
thing I don't like is that a feature I used a lot was removed from
Nautilus, but the flexibility of GNOME Shell doesn't really help
there...


Regards: DAvid
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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Reintroducing FFmpeg to Debian

2014-08-11 Thread wm4

On Mon, 11 Aug 2014 20:40:28 +0200
Reimar Döffinger  wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> Apologies for not being able to resist answering even if it is getting
> off-topic.
> 
> On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 05:43:33PM -0400, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> > On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 12:25:33AM -0700, Andrew Kelley wrote:
> > > 
> > > High quality libraries must iterate on their API. Especially for a library
> > > trying to solve such a complex problem as audio and video encoding and
> > > decoding for every codec and format. It is unreasonable to expect no
> > > incompatible changes. Also both ffmpeg and libav codebases have a lot of
> > > legacy cruft. Libav is making a more concentrated effort at improving 
> > > this,
> > > and the evolving API is a side-effect of that.
> > 
> > I beg to differ.  My definition of a "high quality library" is one
> > where careful design is taken into account when designing the
> > ABI/API's in the first place, and which if absolutely necessary, uses
> > ELF symbol versioning to maintain ABI compatibility.
> > 
> > There are plenty of "high quality libraries" (glibc, libext2fs, etc.)
> > where we've been able to maintain full ABI compatibility even while
> > adding new features --- including in the case of libext2fs, migrating
> > from 32-bit to 64-bit block numbers.  And if you're careful in your
> > design and implementation, the amount of cruft required can be kept to
> > a very low minimum.
> 
> While you certainly have a point that we have a lot to learn and improve,
> your comparison is not entirely fair, for reasons like
> 
> a) glibc, libext2fs are much older projects, we still have to
> pay for old sins, from times where everyone was happy when
> their video played at all on Linux and nobody complained about
> ABI compatibility. Not to mention few of us having much experience
> in software development.

Build something on a newer glibc system, and try to run the binary on
an older system. It most likely won't work - even if it could in
theory. (At least it was this way some years ago. Probably still is.)
So glibc might achieve some ABI backwards-compatibility, but the truth
is that they have many many issues, and the symbol versioning merely
paints them over. They can only dream of ABI compatibility as solid
as kernel32.dll's.

> b) A good number of our users are on Windows, which makes symbol
> versioning a very undesirable solution. Sometimes that means alternative
> solutions which are messier or more likely to break compatibility by
> accident

To be fair, FFmpeg does its own "manual" symbol versioning by appending
increasing numbers to function names. But the real problem are not
these functions, but public structs. Imagine a new API user fighting to
guess which fields in AVCodecContext must be set, or which must not be
set. Seasoned FFmpeg developers probably don't know the horror.

> c) For libext2fs your users won't claim a file system is ext2, when it
> is actually btrfs and still expect your ext2 library to work with it!
> That is very much the standard in multimedia ("everything is .avi",
> "I don't care what format it is, I just want it to play", ...).
> Nor do you have competing ext2 implementations adding completely
> mis-designed extensions to it, with everyone expecting you to support it, that
> definitely makes API design a _lot_ more challenging.

Even more importantly, libext2fs has a very specific use case. Not only
is there only ext2fs "vendor", it's also a pretty simple problem. IF
you really want to make a fair comparison, you'd have to compare FFmpeg
with a filesystem abstraction library that allows low-level accesses.

I think the largest issue with FFmpeg is actually that it's so
low-level. Users usually have to connect the individual libraries
themselves, and that is very error prone. Hell, even the official
FFmpeg examples are buggy, and _all_ unofficial FFmpeg tutorials seem
to be broken to hell.

I think there should be a higher-level FFmpeg library that takes care
of these things.

> d) At least in the case of glibc that backwards-compatibility is not at
> all free to its current users. _IO_stdin_used is a prime example of that,
> anyone playing with methods to reduce binary size/strip symbols will stumble
> over that and curse very loudly at some point.
> I certainly would have preferred it to not be ABI compatible in that
> case!

I have the feeling glibc would have it easier if they wouldn't expose so
many internals. If you compile a program written against standard C and
POSIX, it will reference the strangest glibc symbols.

> Regards,
> Reimar
> ___
> ffmpeg-devel mailing list
> ffmpeg-de...@ffmpeg.org
> http://ffmpeg.org/mailman/listinfo/ffmpeg-devel

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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

2014-08-11 Thread Michael Biebl

Am 11.08.2014 22:09, schrieb David Weinehall:
> On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 01:47:53PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
>> On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 07:42:41PM +0200, David Weinehall wrote:
>>> Available in GNOME 3.
>>>
>>> Available in GNOME 3.
>>>
>>> Not enabled by default (if I remember correctly), but possible to enable
>>> using gnome-tweak-tool.
>>
>> I shouldn't have to know that.  And I am pretty sure when gnome3 appeared
>> in sid, it wasn't available.
>>
>>> Not enabled by default (if I remember correctly), but possible to enable
>>> using gnome-tweak-tool.
>>
>> I will somewhat agree that one is hardly ever used since I just alt+tab to 
>> the other window I want.
>>
>>> Available in GNOME 3.
>>>
>>> Alt+space brings up the window menu in GNOME 3.
>>>
>>> So, sounds like GNOME 3 provides/can provide everything you seem to
>>> expect from a window manager.
>>
>> Trying to navigate the horrible menu system trying to find where to
>> configure things was highly unpleasant too.  It made windows 8 seem sane.
>>
>> I just believe the default when you install and log in the first time
>> shoudl be something that makes sense to your typical average user, and I
>> don't think gnome3 by default does that.  It can be tweaked to do so now
>> (I don't think it could initially), but the typical user won't know how
>> to do that.  The defaults are bad.
> 
> Well, if there's a consensus that the minimise/maximise
> buttons are needed (I always enable them, so I'd vote yes!), then
> I'm sure that the Debian GNOME team will be happy to enable those
> options by default.

Are you missing anything from the GNOME Classic mode *)? It offers
exactly what you are asking for, with zero need for configuration.
It's available right next to the GNOME session on your login manager.

Michael

*) GNOME Classic is GNOME Shell with a different set of extensions and a
different default configuration. Imho also a great demonstration of the
flexibility and extendability of the GNOME Shell infrastructure.


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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 01:47:53PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 07:42:41PM +0200, David Weinehall wrote:
> > Available in GNOME 3.
> > 
> > Available in GNOME 3.
> > 
> > Not enabled by default (if I remember correctly), but possible to enable
> > using gnome-tweak-tool.
> 
> I shouldn't have to know that.  And I am pretty sure when gnome3 appeared
> in sid, it wasn't available.
> 
> > Not enabled by default (if I remember correctly), but possible to enable
> > using gnome-tweak-tool.
> 
> I will somewhat agree that one is hardly ever used since I just alt+tab to 
> the other window I want.
> 
> > Available in GNOME 3.
> > 
> > Alt+space brings up the window menu in GNOME 3.
> > 
> > So, sounds like GNOME 3 provides/can provide everything you seem to
> > expect from a window manager.
> 
> Trying to navigate the horrible menu system trying to find where to
> configure things was highly unpleasant too.  It made windows 8 seem sane.
> 
> I just believe the default when you install and log in the first time
> shoudl be something that makes sense to your typical average user, and I
> don't think gnome3 by default does that.  It can be tweaked to do so now
> (I don't think it could initially), but the typical user won't know how
> to do that.  The defaults are bad.

Well, if there's a consensus that the minimise/maximise
buttons are needed (I always enable them, so I'd vote yes!), then
I'm sure that the Debian GNOME team will be happy to enable those
options by default.


Regards: David
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Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

2014-08-11 Thread Johannes Schaffrath


On 08/11/2014 09:45 PM, Johannes Schaffrath wrote:

On 08/11/2014 07:38 PM, David Weinehall wrote:

Summary:

* If you download you can pick the smallest option possible;
   thus the default desktop is irrelevant -- people with plenty
   of bandwidth will probably go with the default, but if you know
   that your connectivity is expensive you'll go for something small
   (possibly forgoing the tasks system altogether)

* If you use ready-made CD/DVD images they'll be fixed size no matter
   what.  If you sneaker-net them you definitely want them to be full,
   not half-full.


Regards: David
I fully agree. It doesn't matter how do you have to pay for CD's or 
DVD's for the default DE. The user will choose the iso which they 
need. If we are really worried about the iso and people with a bad 
connection then we should split the LXDE and Xfce iso.

I stick to it:
* Debian doesn't need a default desktop,
* CD1 should be renamed similar to KDE, Xfce/LXDE CD isos and maybe a 
Mate iso would be great and
* the option to choose a DE should be hidden in the advanced options 
for netisos.


Best Johannes (debian user)

Not should... I mean shouldn't be hidden:)






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Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

2014-08-11 Thread Olav Vitters

On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 07:41:00PM +0100, Mirosław Baran wrote:
> Olav, would you mind to clarify in what capacity are you on this list?
> (Debian user? Debian maintainer? Debian developer? GNOME upstream
> developer?
> Systemd developer? Interested independent party? Something else
> altogether?)
> 
> (I hope you wont't think this question to be rude – I like to have a
> bit of clarity.)

Ah, sorry. I mentioned it a few times during systemd discussion, so
didn't repeat to avoid it being seen as noise.

Anyway: GNOME release team member. (realized last GUADEC that I'm
already in that team for almost 6 years)

I lurk/contribute on Gentoo, openSUSE, Fedora, Debian, Mageia (read
on). I've reached out to a few Debian Developers last FOSDEM. Initially
just to better understand the issues distributions face while packaging
GNOME I started to help out @ Mageia with GNOME packaging.

Regarding Debian specifically: Used it for a year or so, and for a much
longer time on a few servers (IMO server doesn't mean much, once
configured you don't spend loads of hours logged into it like you do
when you're using it on your desktop machine).

Also an more-or-less inactive GNOME sysadmin, inactive triager
(Mozilla+GNOME), used to be Bugzilla developer (later learned that this
also enabled commit privs to Mozilla:). I like to help out with the
development of GNOME, without actually being a developer (aside from
scripting languages like Python/Perl). I did release a tarball once or
twice though :P

GNOME is purely a hobby, I have no other interest. I like discussions
(probably noticeable). I like seeing "where GNOME stands". E.g. what
things are we doing wrong. I also like feedback. Meaning, I prefer if
people take part in discussions. I often forward potential things I
think might be missed or might be a problem to distributor-list. E.g.
https://mail.gnome.org/archives/distributor-list/2012-June/msg1.html
where we didn't get much feedback on the plan to switch to Python 3. But
also stuff like non-maintenance of (freedesktop.org) ConsoleKit, changes
to (freedesktop.org) UPower, etc.

Originally I joined release team due to being a triager. I was asked to
join because of knowing the issues within GNOME (bugs, etc). I don't do
the actual GNOME releases as that is almost impossible to do without
taking time off. The packaging hugely helps though, sometimes ask for
new tarballs (x.y.z.1 and so on).

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Olav

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Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

2014-08-11 Thread Johannes Schaffrath


On 08/11/2014 07:38 PM, David Weinehall wrote:

Summary:

* If you download you can pick the smallest option possible;
   thus the default desktop is irrelevant -- people with plenty
   of bandwidth will probably go with the default, but if you know
   that your connectivity is expensive you'll go for something small
   (possibly forgoing the tasks system altogether)

* If you use ready-made CD/DVD images they'll be fixed size no matter
   what.  If you sneaker-net them you definitely want them to be full,
   not half-full.


Regards: David
I fully agree. It doesn't matter how do you have to pay for CD's or 
DVD's for the default DE. The user will choose the iso which they need. 
If we are really worried about the iso and people with a bad connection 
then we should split the LXDE and Xfce iso.

I stick to it:
* Debian doesn't need a default desktop,
* CD1 should be renamed similar to KDE, Xfce/LXDE CD isos and maybe a 
Mate iso would be great and
* the option to choose a DE should be hidden in the advanced options for 
netisos.


Best Johannes (debian user)


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Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

2014-08-11 Thread Olav Vitters

On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 06:12:02PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> Quoting Olav Vitters (2014-08-11 11:21:14)
> > On Fri, Aug 08, 2014 at 11:10:50AM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> >> Quite a few places in the World have poor and/or expensive internet 
> >> access.  Larger default desktop will hurt the most in developing 
> >> countries: non-techies gets discourages to use Debian at all, or when 
> >> using it may apply security fixes less often.
> >
> > How poor is poor?
> 
> Poor enough that they bother visitors coming from different places in 
> the World asking them to please consider bring install data "by 
> sneakernet" (e.g. on CDs but could just as well be floppies or uSD 
> storage embedded in iPhones - physical media type not important).
> 
> I call it "bother" not because I have experienced actually being 
> bothered by such request, but because I have experienced being treated 
> like a king in India and Indonesia yet asked that - surprising to me - 
> requst.

With "how poor is poor" to please give numbers. Something to work with.

Regarding bringing install media: Been there, done that. Including the
bits of passing it along various people because cd's got "lost" in the
post. I urge you to be concrete. Numbers.

> > I've been participating since having a theoretical 64KB/s cable 
> > connection, which in practice only did 3-5KB/s (provider: BART in 
> > Rotterdam)! A cd would take about 24 hours to download (net install 
> > was sometimes unreliable, so I preferred a cd). Having a poor 
> > connection means you get creative. I shared the cd's I downloaded, 
> > used rewritable to push the cost down, etc.
> 
> How poor was that example of poor?

I gave exact numbers, please don't give vague replies. It's not helpful.

> > I've checked http://explorer.netindex.com/maps which shows the Speed 
> > test results across the world. According to that site, the minimal 
> > speed I can see in various African countries is at least 0.75 Mbps. 
> > Much higher than the speed I was used to.
> 
> How expensive is such average speed?  Not measured in dollar, but 
> measured in something more locally tangible, like "work hours"?

How about doing that research yourself. You're saying to take into
account third world countries, yet not giving any numbers. I gave you
the average speed of a lot of countries. It seems to not match with your
expectations. Cool, then it is NOT up to me to figure out why your still
might be right.

> > Always having a slow connection changes means you're tolerance level 
> > is different. I used to download a cd in 24 hours. Nowadays the same 
> > takes maybe 35 seconds.
> 
> Still you are talking about cost in time.  Few I have met in developing 
> countries were poor measured in time available.

No, I am not just talking about cost in time. I gave concrete measures.
You've entire reply lacks anything concrete. Nothing to work with *AT
ALL*. Quantify!

I've said before I have experience with working around low bandwidth,
but it seems nothing is acceptable. That's ok, because then this usecase
cannot be fulfilled anyway.

> > I don't get the doom and gloom unless you're more clear.
> 
> Please elaborate what is unclear.

Please explain:
- Why this problem did not exist when GNOME used to be a default
- In case it was a problem before, why GNOME was still used
- In case it was acceptable, why isn't it acceptable now
- Why is XFCE acceptable
- Why is the only acceptable solution changing the default DE for
  everyone
- What install size is acceptable
- What install size was it with GNOME before
- What bandwidth is acceptable
- Why cant this be solved by e.g. mailing cd's?
- If Debian 6.0 200MB netinst cd uses GNOME
- If Debian 7.6 290MB netinst cd uses XFCE


Your arguments come up as arbitrary, especially when considering GNOME
used to be a default. Coupled with vague non-specific replies comes off
as pretty disrespectful.

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Olav


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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Reintroducing FFmpeg to Debian

2014-08-11 Thread Reimar Döffinger

Hello,

Apologies for not being able to resist answering even if it is getting
off-topic.

On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 05:43:33PM -0400, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 12:25:33AM -0700, Andrew Kelley wrote:
> > 
> > High quality libraries must iterate on their API. Especially for a library
> > trying to solve such a complex problem as audio and video encoding and
> > decoding for every codec and format. It is unreasonable to expect no
> > incompatible changes. Also both ffmpeg and libav codebases have a lot of
> > legacy cruft. Libav is making a more concentrated effort at improving this,
> > and the evolving API is a side-effect of that.
> 
> I beg to differ.  My definition of a "high quality library" is one
> where careful design is taken into account when designing the
> ABI/API's in the first place, and which if absolutely necessary, uses
> ELF symbol versioning to maintain ABI compatibility.
> 
> There are plenty of "high quality libraries" (glibc, libext2fs, etc.)
> where we've been able to maintain full ABI compatibility even while
> adding new features --- including in the case of libext2fs, migrating
> from 32-bit to 64-bit block numbers.  And if you're careful in your
> design and implementation, the amount of cruft required can be kept to
> a very low minimum.

While you certainly have a point that we have a lot to learn and improve,
your comparison is not entirely fair, for reasons like

a) glibc, libext2fs are much older projects, we still have to
pay for old sins, from times where everyone was happy when
their video played at all on Linux and nobody complained about
ABI compatibility. Not to mention few of us having much experience
in software development.

b) A good number of our users are on Windows, which makes symbol
versioning a very undesirable solution. Sometimes that means alternative
solutions which are messier or more likely to break compatibility by
accident

c) For libext2fs your users won't claim a file system is ext2, when it
is actually btrfs and still expect your ext2 library to work with it!
That is very much the standard in multimedia ("everything is .avi",
"I don't care what format it is, I just want it to play", ...).
Nor do you have competing ext2 implementations adding completely
mis-designed extensions to it, with everyone expecting you to support it, that
definitely makes API design a _lot_ more challenging.

d) At least in the case of glibc that backwards-compatibility is not at
all free to its current users. _IO_stdin_used is a prime example of that,
anyone playing with methods to reduce binary size/strip symbols will stumble
over that and curse very loudly at some point.
I certainly would have preferred it to not be ABI compatible in that
case!

Regards,
Reimar

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Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

2014-08-11 Thread Mirosław Baran


Olav Vitters wrote:

My response specifically deals with this. Yes, nice if Debian 
Developers

could keep the response. However, there is nothing in there about "must
not be dropped without good reason". If upstream removes support, so be
it. Then it is very nice if the support is patched back in, but there 
is

nothing in the decision that it is expected that anyone could expect
packagers to do this.


Olav, would you mind to clarify in what capacity are you on this list?
(Debian user? Debian maintainer? Debian developer? GNOME upstream 
developer?
Systemd developer? Interested independent party? Something else 
altogether?)


(I hope you wont't think this question to be rude – I like to have a bit 
of clarity.)


Thanks in advance,
Best regards
– Miroslaw Baran


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Bug#757839: ITP: python-xstatic-d3 -- D3 JS XStatic support

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Thomas Goirand 

* Package name: python-xstatic-d3
  Version : 3.4.9
  Upstream Author : Radomir Dopieralski 
* URL : https://bitbucket.org/thesheep/xstatic-d3
* License : BSD-3-clause
  Programming Lang: Python
  Description : D3 JS XStatic support

 XStatic is a packaging standard to package external (often 3rd party) static
 files as a Python package, so they are easily usable on all operating systems,
 with any package management system or even without one.
 .
 Many Python projects need to use some specific data files, like javascript,
 css, java applets, images, etc. Sometimes these files belong to YOUR project
 (then you may want to package them separately, but you could also just put 
 them into your main package). But in many other cases, those files are
 maintained by someone else (like jQuery javascript library or even much bigger
 js libraries or applications) and you definitely do not really want to merge
 them into your project. So, you want to have static file packages, but you
 don’t want to get lots of stuff you do not want. Thus, stuff required by
 XStatic file packages (especially the main, toplevel XStatic package) tries to
 obey to be a MINIMAL, no-fat thing. XStatic doesn't "sell" any web framework
 or other stuff you don't want. Maybe there will be optional XStatic extensions
 for all sorts of stuff, but they won't be required if you just want the files.
 .
 By having static files in packages, it is also easier to build virtual envs,  
 support linux/bsd/... distribution package maintainers and even windows
 installs using the same mechanism.
 .
 This package provides D3 JS support as a Python module.


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Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

2014-08-11 Thread Andrei POPESCU

On Lu, 11 aug 14, 19:38:47, David Weinehall wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 06:00:05PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> > I do: I see a reason to netinst a 0.629xCD size desktop install rather 
> > than a 0.829xCD size desktop when bandwidth is costly.
> 
> Yes, but if you netinst you can *pick* your desktop, it's not like you
> have to pick the default.  Do a minimal install, then use tasksel
> to select XFCE (or just x + a window manager + the application you
> actually need).

Even the netinst has a default. Besides your method below it's also 
possible to change it using the boot menu, which many will miss or be 
afraid to try (it's under "Advanced options"), so will end up with 
whatever Debian chooses as default.

So the default matters also for the netinst, unless it's made easier to 
change from the installation process itself.

Probably easiest would be to just get rid of "Mail server", "Web 
server", "Print server" (CUPS will get pulled anyway as dependency of 
most if not all major DEs), etc. and instead display a list of Desktop 
Environments to choose from.

Kind regards,
Andrei
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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

How do you measure memory? Free?
Could you quite possibly post the output of free and whatever else you
measure with? (the full output)
For reference against jessie, i'm installing an up to date jessie right
now...

Thanks
Anthony (bofh80)

Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

2014-08-11 Thread Lennart Sorensen

On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 07:42:41PM +0200, David Weinehall wrote:
> Available in GNOME 3.
> 
> Available in GNOME 3.
> 
> Not enabled by default (if I remember correctly), but possible to enable
> using gnome-tweak-tool.

I shouldn't have to know that.  And I am pretty sure when gnome3 appeared
in sid, it wasn't available.

> Not enabled by default (if I remember correctly), but possible to enable
> using gnome-tweak-tool.

I will somewhat agree that one is hardly ever used since I just alt+tab to the 
other window I want.

> Available in GNOME 3.
> 
> Alt+space brings up the window menu in GNOME 3.
> 
> So, sounds like GNOME 3 provides/can provide everything you seem to
> expect from a window manager.

Trying to navigate the horrible menu system trying to find where to
configure things was highly unpleasant too.  It made windows 8 seem sane.

I just believe the default when you install and log in the first time
shoudl be something that makes sense to your typical average user, and I
don't think gnome3 by default does that.  It can be tweaked to do so now
(I don't think it could initially), but the typical user won't know how
to do that.  The defaults are bad.

-- 
Len Sorensen

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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 01:35:28PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen wrote:
> All I personally expect from a window manager is:
> 
> Be able to launch programs (ideally using alt+F2)

Available in GNOME 3.

> Be able to resize the window using the edge of the window

Available in GNOME 3.

> Have a maximize/restore button

Not enabled by default (if I remember correctly), but possible to enable
using gnome-tweak-tool.

> Have a minimize button

Not enabled by default (if I remember correctly), but possible to enable
using gnome-tweak-tool.

> Have a close button

Available in GNOME 3.

> (These last 3 should also show up when I hit alt+space, because well I
> have used that keystroke on many systems for over 20 years to do that).

Alt+space brings up the window menu in GNOME 3.

So, sounds like GNOME 3 provides/can provide everything you seem to
expect from a window manager.

Kind regards, David
-- 
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//  ~   //  Diamond-white roses of fire //
\)  http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao/(/   Beautiful hoar-frost   (/

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Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 06:00:05PM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> I do: I see a reason to netinst a 0.629xCD size desktop install rather 
> than a 0.829xCD size desktop when bandwidth is costly.

Yes, but if you netinst you can *pick* your desktop, it's not like you
have to pick the default.  Do a minimal install, then use tasksel
to select XFCE (or just x + a window manager + the application you
actually need).

The CD images are fixed size.  They will fill out a CD-size
(or a DVD, if they are DVD-images).  Netinst images can obviously
be optimized for size, but the netinst images do not contain the
desktop environment, so whichever desktop is default is a totally
moot question in that scenario.

Summary:

* If you download you can pick the smallest option possible;
  thus the default desktop is irrelevant -- people with plenty
  of bandwidth will probably go with the default, but if you know
  that your connectivity is expensive you'll go for something small
  (possibly forgoing the tasks system altogether)

* If you use ready-made CD/DVD images they'll be fixed size no matter
  what.  If you sneaker-net them you definitely want them to be full,
  not half-full.

Regards: David
-- 
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//  ~   //  Diamond-white roses of fire //
\)  http://www.acc.umu.se/~tao/(/   Beautiful hoar-frost   (/

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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

2014-08-11 Thread Lennart Sorensen

On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 05:34:04PM +0200, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
> You mean left vs. right side? 

Or even showing them at all (certainly last time I bothered to look at
gnome 3 it seemed to think buttons on windows were mostly to be avoided).

> People who are so afraid of new stuff to learn that they won't even figure
> out how to close a window are not Gnome's (or XFCE's, for that matter)
> target audience.
> If you want that, install KDE and tell it to use one of the
> let's-mimic-Windows/MacOS themes.

xfce is perfectly useable to most people by default.

All I personally expect from a window manager is:

Be able to launch programs (ideally using alt+F2)
Be able to resize the window using the edge of the window
Have a maximize/restore button
Have a minimize button
Have a close button
(These last 3 should also show up when I hit alt+space, because well I
have used that keystroke on many systems for over 20 years to do that).

That's it.  I don't need any more than that.  Gnome 3 failed that out
of the box.

It seems Microsoft is willing to accept they fucked up on windwos
8 and are backing down and restoring what people really want in the
next version.  I wonder if the gnome UI designers will ever be willing
to admit they screwed up and back down.

Adding new idea is fine, but not at the expense of existing features
and behaviour.  You have to let people continue to use things until they
get used to the new things if they ever do.  You can't just force people
to switch the way they work.

-- 
Len Sorensen

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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

2014-08-11 Thread Ben Hutchings

On Mon, 2014-08-11 at 03:20 +0100, Anthony F McInerney wrote:
[...]
> If people have old CD only machines i would not like to attempt to get
> kernel 3.16 +drivers +userland working on that. I've been in that
> situation plenty of times, where woody or potato are better simply
> because the drivers had been deprecated. Lets not go into the
> 256/512MB of ram that the CD only computer has and how much gnome or
> xfce is going to chew up and bring the machine to a crawl as soon you
> try to do anything and it hits swap.
[...]

I have a wheezy VM running Xfce comfortably in 256 MB (only a third of
which is used at this moment, excluding caches and buffers).  I doubt
that jessie is going to require vastly more memory.  So I think that
Xfce and CD media are still going to be useful for people who are stuck
with older hardware.

If we agree that it's important to support installation from a single CD
(rather than 2+ CDs or downloads) then Xfce would probably be the right
default DE for that single CD.  I do not support making it the default
in general, though.

Ben.

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Humans are not rational beings; they are rationalising beings.

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Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

2014-08-11 Thread Joel Rees

2014/08/12 1:12 "Jonas Smedegaard" :
>
> [...]
> Still you are talking about cost in time.  Few I have met in developing
> countries were poor measured in time available.
> [...]

Developed country (Japan). My wife makes me scrimp on everything, so I
still have megabit/sec download. Fiber or 10 Mb/s copper would cost me some
JPY1000 a month more, up to about 3500/mo. (Roughly JPY100 to USD1.00.)
So, when I download DVDs, I plan on leaving the download going all day.

But I don't download DVDs because the installer will go to the net for the
latest anyway, if you let it. Of course, that means upgrading to Jessy is
going to be two days of down time.

--
Joel Rees

Computer memory is just fancy paper,
CPUs just fancy pens.
All is a stream of text
flowing from the past into the future.

Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Reintroducing FFmpeg to Debian

2014-08-11 Thread Jeff Epler

On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 06:28:51PM +0200, Moritz Mühlenhoff wrote:
> I don't know mythtv, but if it's just a digital video recorder, there's
> no significant risk ever needing security updates. A local, forked copy
> is problematic for a video player since someone may open a malformed video
> file, but malformed DVB streams are a different ballpark. Please contact
> us at t...@security.debian.org so that we sort that out.

A stream from a TV tuner should be considered just as suspect as one
from a shady video download website.  see e.g.,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Broadcast_Broadband_TV#Security_Concerns
for just one problem that arises when you assume that an adversary is
willing to aim a low-power broadcast at your antenna.

Jeff

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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Reintroducing FFmpeg to Debian

2014-08-11 Thread Moritz Mühlenhoff

Wookey  schrieb:
> Unless we were to decide to make an exception re internal libraries
> (which seems unlikely in this case given the general discussion on
> security load), this package is not going to make it into Debian
> anytime soon, which from my POV is very sad - I had thought we were
> closer than this.

I don't know mythtv, but if it's just a digital video recorder, there's
no significant risk ever needing security updates. A local, forked copy
is problematic for a video player since someone may open a malformed video
file, but malformed DVB streams are a different ballpark. Please contact
us at t...@security.debian.org so that we sort that out.

Cheers,
Moritz


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Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

2014-08-11 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

Quoting Olav Vitters (2014-08-11 11:21:14)
> On Fri, Aug 08, 2014 at 11:10:50AM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
>> Quite a few places in the World have poor and/or expensive internet 
>> access.  Larger default desktop will hurt the most in developing 
>> countries: non-techies gets discourages to use Debian at all, or when 
>> using it may apply security fixes less often.
>
> How poor is poor?

Poor enough that they bother visitors coming from different places in 
the World asking them to please consider bring install data "by 
sneakernet" (e.g. on CDs but could just as well be floppies or uSD 
storage embedded in iPhones - physical media type not important).

I call it "bother" not because I have experienced actually being 
bothered by such request, but because I have experienced being treated 
like a king in India and Indonesia yet asked that - surprising to me - 
requst.

> I've been participating since having a theoretical 64KB/s cable 
> connection, which in practice only did 3-5KB/s (provider: BART in 
> Rotterdam)! A cd would take about 24 hours to download (net install 
> was sometimes unreliable, so I preferred a cd). Having a poor 
> connection means you get creative. I shared the cd's I downloaded, 
> used rewritable to push the cost down, etc.

How poor was that example of poor?

> I've checked http://explorer.netindex.com/maps which shows the Speed 
> test results across the world. According to that site, the minimal 
> speed I can see in various African countries is at least 0.75 Mbps. 
> Much higher than the speed I was used to.

How expensive is such average speed?  Not measured in dollar, but 
measured in something more locally tangible, like "work hours"?

> Always having a slow connection changes means you're tolerance level 
> is different. I used to download a cd in 24 hours. Nowadays the same 
> takes maybe 35 seconds.

Still you are talking about cost in time.  Few I have met in developing 
countries were poor measured in time available.

> I don't get the doom and gloom unless you're more clear.

Please elaborate what is unclear.

 - Jonas

-- 
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 * Tlf.: +45 40843136  Website: http://dr.jones.dk/

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Bug#757824: ITP: python-xstatic-bootstrap-datepicker -- Bootstrap-Datepicker XStatic support

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Thomas Goirand 

* Package name: python-xstatic-bootstrap-datepicker
  Version : 0.0.0.1
  Upstream Author : Radomir Dopieralski 
* URL : https://bitbucket.org/thesheep/xstatic-bootstrap-datepicker
* License : Apache-2.0
  Programming Lang: Python
  Description : Bootstrap-Datepicker XStatic support

 XStatic is a packaging standard to package external (often 3rd party) static
 files as a Python package, so they are easily usable on all operating systems,
 with any package management system or even without one.
 .
 Many Python projects need to use some specific data files, like javascript,
 css, java applets, images, etc. Sometimes these files belong to YOUR project
 (then you may want to package them separately, but you could also just put
 them into your main package). But in many other cases, those files are
 maintained by someone else (like jQuery javascript library or even much bigger
 js libraries or applications) and you definitely do not really want to merge
 them into your project. So, you want to have static file packages, but you
 don’t want to get lots of stuff you do not want. Thus, stuff required by
 XStatic file packages (especially the main, toplevel XStatic package) tries to
 obey to be a MINIMAL, no-fat thing. XStatic doesn't "sell" any web framework
 or other stuff you don't want. Maybe there will be optional XStatic extensions
 for all sorts of stuff, but they won't be required if you just want the files.
 .
 By having static files in packages, it is also easier to build virtual envs,
 support linux/bsd/... distribution package maintainers and even windows
 installs using the same mechanism.
 .
 This package provides Bootstrap-Datepicker support as a Python module.

Note: the finaly package does *not* provides the JS/Less library, which I
packaged under libjs-twitter-bootstrap-datepicker.


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Re: Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

2014-08-11 Thread Jonas Smedegaard

Quoting David Weinehall (2014-08-10 22:59:45)
> On Fri, Aug 08, 2014 at 11:10:50AM +0200, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
>>
>> The issue here really is "how big is it?" rather than "hos many disks 
>> [of which kind] does it fit onto?".
>>
>> "unable to fit on a single image" is not only about use of said 
>> storage devices for installation, but also an indication more 
>> generally of how much data needs to be transfered on average for a 
>> usable installation.
>>
>> Quite a few places in the World have poor and/or expensive internet 
>> access.  Larger default desktop will hurt the most in developing 
>> countries: non-techies gets discourages to use Debian at all, or when 
>> using it may apply security fixes less often.
>
> In all cases where I'm stuck with expensive (and/or slow) Internet I 
> sure as hell pick the netinst image and download the minimum set of 
> packages I need, rather than a whole CD image on the offhand chance 
> that I might need everything on it (which is exceedingly unlikely).

[remark about actual CD use rather than desktop size measure snipped]

> So, as long as GNOME fits on the first installation CD I see no reason 
> not to prefer it over XFCE.

I do: I see a reason to netinst a 0.629xCD size desktop install rather 
than a 0.829xCD size desktop when bandwidth is costly.

(numbers above are made up - just to illustrate that I am talking about 
the size of the desktops, not actual concrete CDs or DVDs or Blueray 
disks.


 - Jonas

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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

2014-08-11 Thread Matthias Urlichs

Hi,

Lennart Sorensen:
> it needs buttons on windows that people expect to see where they expect
> to see them

You mean left vs. right side? 

> Would Debian be willing to make gnome3 have different defaults than
> upstream in the interest of actually being useable to new users who are
> used to other operating systems and desktops?
> 
People who are so afraid of new stuff to learn that they won't even figure
out how to close a window are not Gnome's (or XFCE's, for that matter)
target audience.
If you want that, install KDE and tell it to use one of the
let's-mimic-Windows/MacOS themes.

-- 
-- Matthias Urlichs


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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

2014-08-11 Thread Lennart Sorensen

On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 11:15:15AM +0200, Thomas Weber wrote:
> Not sure why you'd want to go for third world countries, but let's look
> at Germany (Aldi is one of the two biggest discounters here):
> http://www.presseportal.de/pm/112096/2653870/aldi-senkt-preise-fuer-fischprodukte-oel-und-smoothies
> CD-R Rohlinge (80 Minuten, je 50er Spindel) 5,99 Euro
> DVD+R Rohlinge (je 20er Spindel)3,99 Euro 
> That is 0.12 EUR per CDR and 0.20 EUR per DVD. 

My local computer store has $8.99 for 50 DVD-R and $16.99 for 50 CD-R.

Of course they also have 100 CD-R for $18.88 and 100 DVD-R for $24.88,
so who knows.  Seems the price is pretty similar depending what you buy
and how many.

Of course as for gnome as a default, unless it can have sane defaults
where it behaves as the vast majority of computer users are used to a
desktop working, then I don't think it is a usable desktop.  That means
it needs buttons on windows that people expect to see where they expect
to see them, and things behaving as they expect them to behave.
Would Debian be willing to make gnome3 have different defaults than
upstream in the interest of actually being useable to new users who are
used to other operating systems and desktops?

-- 
Len Sorensen

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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Reintroducing FFmpeg to Debian

2014-08-11 Thread Wookey

+++ Wookey [2014-08-08 16:05 +0100]:
> 
> My expertise here is extremely limited, but some practical experience
> shows that mythtv does at least basically work fine with libav.

It turns out that this is completely wrong (as hinted at in later
mails). I was mislead by info in bugreports.

The (prospective) Debian and Ubuntu (and deb-multimedia) Mythtv
packages do not use libav. So far as I can tell they all use the
internal ffmpeg fork (for the reasons explained elsewhere in this thread).

It would appear that rebuilding against libav is a non-trivial piece
of work. Rebuilding against system ffmpeg would presumably be easier,
but still not necessarily simple. Both will reduce speed and/or
functionality and at least initially probably introduce bugs.

Unless we were to decide to make an exception re internal libraries
(which seems unlikely in this case given the general discussion on
security load), this package is not going to make it into Debian
anytime soon, which from my POV is very sad - I had thought we were
closer than this.

Still, it's only been 5 years so far - don't want to rush these things
:-) I hope we can at least maintain some compatible packages outside
the archive.

Hopefully some tuits will be found to make some progress on this
(we're (well Simon Iremonger is) doing some mythtv-on-arm
builds/testing at the moment) to see what does/doesn't work there.

Wookey
-- 
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http://wookware.org/


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Re: Bug#745872: ITP: profanity -- a console based XMPP client

2014-08-11 Thread Dariusz Dwornikowski

> Hello Dariusz and Andrey,
> 
> I'd love to see a Profanity package for Debian. Are you, Dariusz, still 
> working on it?
> I also would like to know, why would the OpenSSL requirement make it 
> impossible to distribute the binary?
> 

Yes, 

I am currently working on profanity package. Libstrophe, its main
dependency, has been pushed to NEW today. 

-- 
Dariusz Dwornikowski, 
  Institute of Computing Science, Poznań University of Technology
  www.cs.put.poznan.pl/ddwornikowski/  
  room 2.7.2 BTiCW | tel. +48 61 665 29 41


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Re: [CTTE #717076] Default libjpeg implementation in Debian

2014-08-11 Thread Thorsten Glaser

On Thu, 31 Jul 2014, Don Armstrong wrote:

> 11. The prospective libjpeg-turbo maintainer should propose an appropriate

Who *is/are* the maintainer(s), anyway?

There are packaging bugs being ignored, and there is an open
bug on a non-release architecture whose suggested workaround
(or possibly fix) cannot currently be tested due to that bug.

bye,
//mirabilos
-- 
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from a database” “it's a rebranded SyBase” “MySQL however was born from a
flatfile and went downhill from there” – “at least jetDB doesn’t claim to
be a database”  ‣‣‣ Please, http://deb.li/mysql and MariaDB, finally die!


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Re: [FFmpeg-devel] Reintroducing FFmpeg to Debian

2014-08-11 Thread Vincent Lefevre

On 2014-08-09 18:26:19 +0100, Kieran Kunhya wrote:
> We also use a fork specifically to work around very wasteful
> calculations in libswscale during 10-bit chroma conversion that
> involve multiplying a pixel by a 2^n value with 32-bit precision and
> then shifting that value down by n back to 16-bit precision (achieving
> nothing). The fix breaks other codepaths that we don't use but the
> performance gain is big enough to warrant a fork.

What is the performance gain?

I'm wondering what performance gain is important enough to justify a
fork in Debian. Well, not just a fork, just recompiling with static
linking can yield a significant improvement. For instance, I could
obtain up to a 37% gain with a static link against MPFR.

-- 
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Re: (Possible) bug in fglrx dependencies in Sid(Unstable)

2014-08-11 Thread Craig Small

On Sat, Aug 09, 2014 at 04:02:45PM +0200, Cyril Brulebois wrote:
> Well that's:
>   https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=754249
Ah that explains why it tries to get removed.

> Instead of trying to mix things up, you probably should be using the
> free driver. Until the proprietary one gets fixed, or forever. :)
I'd avoid fglrx if I could. It crashes lots of things now because the
libclutter problem.

The problem is, that a lot of chipsets just don't work with the free
one. The whole muxless video switching thing.

> (BTW dd@ isn't the right place to get user support or to report bugs.)
I'll shush now too.

 - Craig

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Re: Bug#717076: [CTTE #717076] Default libjpeg implementation in Debian

2014-08-11 Thread Ian Jackson

Bill Allombert writes ("Bug#717076: [CTTE #717076] Default libjpeg 
implementation in Debian"):
> I am concerned that the rationale for this decision contains misconceptions
> about the IJG JPEG library. Given the public nature of this announcement, I
> cannot completly ignore them.

This decision has now been made.  I think it very unlikely that the TC
is going to revisit it, at least for jessie.

The draft TC decision text has been floating around for several
months, including being posted to this bug report and thus to the
debian-ctte@lists mailing list.  The right time to make these points
was when the matter was being discussed by the committee.

So I'm sorry to say this, but: can we please end this discussion.
If someone wants to reopen it for jessie+1 then I guess the TC would
reconsider it then.

Thanks,
Ian.


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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

2014-08-11 Thread shirish शिरीष

at bottom :-

On 8/11/14, Thomas Weber  wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 11, 2014 at 03:20:49AM +0100, Anthony F McInerney wrote:
>> Would the people who are claiming that blank cdr are cheaper than dvdr,
>> especially in third world countries, please cite sources (shops, price
>> checkers etc) of the price of say 5 pack or 10 pack, even up to 50pack of
>> CD's, vs the same amount of DVD's, from those third world countries. Is
>> the
>> price of a small pack of DVD's really worth making the decision on a DE
>> for
>> debian?
>
> Not sure why you'd want to go for third world countries, but let's look
> at Germany (Aldi is one of the two biggest discounters here):
> http://www.presseportal.de/pm/112096/2653870/aldi-senkt-preise-fuer-fischprodukte-oel-und-smoothies
> CD-R Rohlinge (80 Minuten, je 50er Spindel) 5,99 Euro
> DVD+R Rohlinge (je 20er Spindel)3,99 Euro
> That is 0.12 EUR per CDR and 0.20 EUR per DVD.
>
>> DVD readers/writers are cheaper now than CD readers/writers ever were.
> I don't think it makes sense to ask for the price of one media (which is
> in Cents), but then assume that the extra cost for a new DVD reader is
> negligible.
>
>   Thomas

Hi all,
As an interested user I come from India and at least here there isn't
a difference at all in terms of a CD or DVD media. A single of both
costs Rs. 20/- (with the plastic case and all) and going to some of
the wholesalers we can get it for Rs. 7/- or Rs. 8/-  (in a spindle or
a box) . The price might differ between the two by a Rupee or two
(it's been quite some time since I went to buy blank DVD's) but the
space equation is such that I never buy a CD.

I do remember a distinct conversation where I asked him if he ever got
orders for CD with the vendor replying that mostly he gets order CD's
from villages rather than from city/town itself. Still the ratio was
80 > 20 in favor of DVD's.

I know it's not at all scientific and is probably a strawman argument
but that's the way I see it here. Almost nobody I know within my
circle talks about CD and I do not just work with the elite in the
city.
-- 
  Regards,
  Shirish Agarwal  शिरीष अग्रवाल
  My quotes in this email licensed under CC 3.0
http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/
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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

2014-08-11 Thread Ondřej Surý

On Mon, Aug 11, 2014, at 12:23, Anthony F McInerney wrote:

Can we now move on to choosing a DE?



Nope, we still don't have enough anecdotic evidence and
trolling yet[1]...



O.

1. Not target at you, just general observation of d-d...

--
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server

Bug#757789: ITP: python-xstatic-angular-mock -- Angular JS Mock XStatic support

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Thomas Goirand 

* Package name: python-xstatic-angular-mock
  Version : 1.2.16.1
  Upstream Author : Radomir Dopieralski 
* URL : https://bitbucket.org/thesheep/xstatic-angular-mock
* License : Expat
  Programming Lang: Python
  Description : Angular JS Mock XStatic support

 XStatic is a packaging standard to package external (often 3rd party) static
 files as a Python package, so they are easily usable on all operating systems,
 with any package management system or even without one.
 .
 Many Python projects need to use some specific data files, like javascript,
 css, java applets, images, etc. Sometimes these files belong to YOUR project
 (then you may want to package them separately, but you could also just put
 them into your main package). But in many other cases, those files are
 maintained by someone else (like jQuery javascript library or even much bigger
 js libraries or applications) and you definitely do not really want to merge
 them into your project. So, you want to have static file packages, but you
 don’t want to get lots of stuff you do not want. Thus, stuff required by
 XStatic file packages (especially the main, toplevel XStatic package) tries to
 obey to be a MINIMAL, no-fat thing. XStatic doesn't "sell" any web framework
 or other stuff you don't want. Maybe there will be optional XStatic extensions
 for all sorts of stuff, but they won't be required if you just want the files.
 .
 By having static files in packages, it is also easier to build virtual envs,
 support linux/bsd/... distribution package maintainers and even windows
 installs using the same mechanism.
 .
 This package provides Angular JS Mock support as a Python module.

Note that the finaly resulting package do *not* include the Angular mock JS, it
only points to it in the Python wrapper script.


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Bug#757783: ITP: python-xstatic-angular-cookies -- Angular JS Cookies XStatic support

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Thomas Goirand 

* Package name: python-xstatic-angular-cookies
  Version : 1.2.16.1
  Upstream Author : Radomir Dopieralski 
* URL : https://bitbucket.org/thesheep/xstatic-angular-cookies
* License : Expat
  Programming Lang: Python
  Description : Angular JS Cookies XStatic support

 XStatic is a packaging standard to package external (often 3rd party) static
 files as a Python package, so they are easily usable on all operating systems,
 with any package management system or even without one.
 .
 Many Python projects need to use some specific data files, like javascript,
 css, java applets, images, etc. Sometimes these files belong to YOUR project
 (then you may want to package them separately, but you could also just put
 them into your main package). But in many other cases, those files are
 maintained by someone else (like jQuery javascript library or even much bigger
 js libraries or applications) and you definitely do not really want to merge
 them into your project. So, you want to have static file packages, but you
 don’t want to get lots of stuff you do not want. Thus, stuff required by
 XStatic file packages (especially the main, toplevel XStatic package) tries to
 obey to be a MINIMAL, no-fat thing. XStatic doesn't "sell" any web framework
 or other stuff you don't want. Maybe there will be optional XStatic extensions
 for all sorts of stuff, but they won't be required if you just want the files.
 .
 By having static files in packages, it is also easier to build virtual envs,
 support linux/bsd/... distribution package maintainers and even windows
 installs using the same mechanism.

Note that the resulting package do *not* include the Angular Cookies JS, it
only points to the correct file (as this is a Python wrapper package).


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Re: [Pkg-xfce-devel] Reverting to GNOME for jessie's default desktop

On Mon, 11 Aug, 2014 at 10:15 AM, Thomas Weber
wrote:

Not sure why you'd want to go for third world countries, but let's
look

at Germany (Aldi is one of the two biggest discounters here):
http://www.presseportal.de/pm/112096/2653870/aldi-senkt-preise-fuer-fischprodukte-oel-und-smoothies
CD-R Rohlinge (80 Minuten, je 50er Spindel) 5,99 Euro
DVD+R Rohlinge (je 20er Spindel)3,99 Euro
That is 0.12 EUR per CDR and 0.20 EUR per DVD.
As you have shown here, it would cost an extra €0.08 to have it on
DVD instead of CD.

Also I’ll note for you, that's 86GB for €3.99 or 40GB for €5.99
The cost of a DVD is not some far reaching astronomical price increase,
in fact per GB it's cheaper.
Here in the UK I can walk into a poundstore and pick up 4 dvds for a
£1. I'm quite sure you can do the same in any $1 dollar, 99cent store.
The cd's in that store come in a 5pack for £1.

DVD readers/writers are cheaper now than CD readers/writers ever
were.
I don't think it makes sense to ask for the price of one media (which
is

in Cents), but then assume that the extra cost for a new DVD reader is
negligible.

Price is not a valid concern for DVD, in terms of media or drives.
Either the CD drive is too old to function or the machine is. (in terms
of jessie anyway), you can barely buy second hand CD drives, but DVD
drives are a plenty, sure you can buy them NEW for little more than a
pack of 50 CD's.

And if it's "machines in the wild with CD drives still" again, we have
woody, squeeze and wheezy for them.

I ran woody on my cheap laptop in 2002. it had a DVD drive.

Can we now move on to choosing a DE?

Thanks
Anthony.

Bug#757778: ITP: python-xstatic-angular -- Angular JS XStatic support