Re: Bug#862698: ITP: minecraft -- blocks to build anything you can imagine

[Simon McVittie]

On Mon, 15 May 2017 at 18:40:34 -0300, Carlos Donizete Froes wrote:
> * Package name: minecraft
>   Version : 0.1
>   Upstream Author : Carlos Donizete Froes 
> * URL : https://minecraft.net
> * License : BSD-2-Clause
>   Programming Lang: Shell

This information does not seem consistent with what I know about
Minecraft, which is that it is proprietary software, available for
purchase (not even free-as-in-free-beer), originally written by Mojang AB,
now owned by Microsoft, written in Java, and currently versioned 1.11.2.

If what you mean is that you will be writing a "launcher" package in contrib
similar to the steam package, please give the package a description (and
perhaps name) that indicates that. The description in this ITP seems
very misleading.

You might find it useful to look at (for example) the quake, freespace2
and game-data-packager packages for examples of dealing with
non-distributable game data. I don't think we have permission to
redistribute anything from Minecraft, not even the small,
infrequently-updated launcher that downloads, updates and runs the
more-frequently-updated game, unless Microsoft has changed the policy
that Mojang AB historically had (analogous to how Valve encourage
redistribution of the stub that downloads and launches Steam, which is
what's actually in our steam package).

If this package downloads proprietary files automatically, here are some
issues that should be considered:

* minimizing amount of code run as root (downloading the Minecraft
  launcher per-user is probably better - the launcher will download
  Minecraft itself once per user anyway, so sharing files between users
  to reduce disk space usage is not straightforward)
* not executing code that was not obtained in a way that can be trusted:
  downloading via https with correct certificate validation, or checking
  the launcher against known-good cryptographic hashes like
  game-data-packager does, or similar
* not preventing offline apt updates in which packages are downloaded
  while online, then installed at a later time without Internet access

game-data-packager/doc/why.mdwn might be interesting reading.

https://github.com/endlessm/flatpak-minecraft is an alternative approach
to making Minecraft more straightforward to install on a Debian derivative,
although it would be nice if we could use a Debian-based runtime that
included the OpenJDK JRE from Debian (building Debian-based Flatpak
runtimes is something I want to work on, but I haven't got there yet).

Regards,
S

Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Mechtilde]

Hello,

Am 15.05.2017 um 21:45 schrieb Zlatan Todoric:
> 
> 
> On 05/15/2017 02:02 PM, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
>> On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 01:42:09PM +0200, Arturo Borrero Gonzalez wrote:
>>> On 15 May 2017 at 13:30, Paul Wise  wrote:
 TBH if I was confronted with the new LXDE web design with CSS turned
 on, I would probably just close the page. The old page is way more
 informative and less heavy on the marketing.

>>> Hi Paul,
>>>
>>> I believe that what we are actually looking for is a bit of
>>> improvement in the marketing side.
>>> Modern and fancy things.
>>>
>>> The LXDE example is good on that.
>> http://lxde.org/ seems to be the site in question. I agree with Paul,
>> I don't like it, and when I encounter pages in that style, I tend to
>> close the window.
> 
> Then lets forget about getting newcomers (fresh blood) to Debian as
> you're so close minded to modern/new things - the same way they probably
> close the window when they see '90 style with a lot of text that
> actually says nothing. We are strange with our talks last few debconfs -
> we want new people but we don't want to break our precious habits nor do
> we want to give freedom to others to express themselves if they don't
> fit into our circle of thinking which must be the best one.

these two questions come into my mind:

What does a "newcomer" expect from such a website?
what do we expect from a newcomer?


>> * It's not nearly information-dense enough. www.debian.org is too
>>   dense, but the lxde one goes too far in the other direction.
>>   Something in between would be good.
>>
>> * It's hard for me to navigate or to find anything. It has a short
>>   one-sentence summary ("Desktop environment for all"), but nowhere on
>>   the front page does it mention that it works on Linux. That
>>   information is probably on some other page, linked from the front
>>   page, but finding that is someone else's job.
>>
> Well Debian on its page doesn't mention it is Linux based or has Linux
> kernel or at all word Linux. And short sentences are fine - no one is
> forcing you to learn all plane parts and how it works to just board it
> and come from point A to B. If we want users, you need to understand
> that they just want a nice looking and working OS, they don't want to be
> preached about it. For devs - we just need to have something like "Want
> To Become Debian Developer" and link it to some good doc.
> 

To go from user to dev is a gliding way.

"Want To Become Debian Developer" is the last step for a dev not the
first one. IMO

We should try to differ into the different tasks for the user e.g:

* Installation
* Configuration
* Applications
* ...
* How can I help
* Structure of the Packages
* Packaging
* ...

my 2 cents
-- 
Mechtilde Stehmann
## Apache OpenOffice.org
## Freie Office Suite für Linux, MacOSX, Windows
## Debian Developer
## Loook, calender-exchange-provider, libreoffice-canzeley-client
## PGP encryption welcome
## Key-ID 0x141AAD7F



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Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth?

[Gunnar Wolf]

Jonathan Dowland dijo [Mon, May 15, 2017 at 09:27:27AM +0100]:
> On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 09:13:11AM +0200, Alexander Wirt wrote:
> > Nice to have:
> (snip)
> > - Mailinglists
> 
> I've always thought it a bit weird, unfortunate (and possibly a historical 
> accident)
> that we have lists.debian.org and lists.alioth.debian.org. Could this be an 
> opportunity
> to move to one Debian mailing list service?

Oh, but we also have them at lists.debconf.org! And they even use
different software. And there have been attempts at joining, but don't
succeed...

Re: Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[lumin]

> I'll take any day a sort animations that explains things rather then
> going through forest of information to figure out what is it, but I
> guess these all are personal opinions.

A tiny bit of animations should be enough for our homepage. The style
of lxde.org does not fit Debian's style and I think the style of the
old lxde homepage is a better fit at this point.

Too much animation and loud web page elements are too fancy but
actually somewhat annoying, and lack solemnity.

> >> I believe that what we are actually looking for is a bit of
> >> improvement in the marketing side.
> >> Modern and fancy things.
> >>
> >> The LXDE example is good on that.
> > http://lxde.org/ seems to be the site in question. I agree with
> Paul,
> > I don't like it, and when I encounter pages in that style, I tend
> to
> > close the window.
> 
> Then lets forget about getting newcomers (fresh blood) to Debian as
> you're so close minded to modern/new things - the same way they
> probably
> close the window when they see '90 style with a lot of text that
> actually says nothing. We are strange with our talks last few
> debconfs -
> we want new people but we don't want to break our precious habits nor
> do
> we want to give freedom to others to express themselves if they don't
> fit into our circle of thinking which must be the best one.

LXDE is a desktop environment so it's fine to craft a fancy homepage
to attract people. However that style does not fit Debian.

Most of modern business websites are fancy. New bloods may like
them.
However if we craft a fancy page alike, they will forget
it immediately
after closing the window. And many of you don't
like that to happen,
aren't you?

What exactly scares newbies away is the feeling of rigidness but
not the solemnity and simplicity. We value our common value,
we appreciate the hard work you've done via bugs.d.o and
ftp-master and many others alike, but what a newbie can see
about Debian is its face. I know that new users who value
only "pretty face" are less likely to catch the common value
of Debian, and people with love to this community can bear
any "ugly face" of it.  No one dislike a proper and better design.

IMHO there are two good examples, the Gentoo homepage and the kernel
homepage https://www.kernel.org/ .(Remember the old kernel page?)
These pages are pretty but not annoying. An ideal homepage for Debian
should be 1. solemn and silent (as few loud elements/animations
as possible) 2. informative (dense but not exhausting one's eyes)
3. well-designed (e.g. https://www.kernel.org/ is visually simple,
but not too simple. Visitors sense a well-designed style.)

On the other hand, I think the CD image link of Sid should be added
to the Debian image download page, maybe with some tags say
"for expert".

Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth?

[Paul Wise]

On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 12:39 AM, Antonio Terceiro wrote:

> Right. IIRC that was said to me at Debconf16 about Debian-specific
> services (such as ci.debian.net which was the context of my question).

Yeah, for codebases maintained by the service maintainer not having
packages seems reasonable (but not for dependencies of that codebase)
and that seems to be the current feeling within DSA.

Personally I'm leaning towards the feeling that all configuration,
code and dependencies for Debian services should be packaged and
subjected to the usual Debian QA activities but I acknowledge that the
current archive setup (testing migration plus backporting etc) doesn't
necessarily make this easy. The PPA/bikeshed mechanism might make it
more feasible if that happens.

> It makes sense to prefer packages for something that has a proper
> upstream that is not us, which is the case in this discussion.

Right.

> In any case, it would be super useful to have this explicitly documented
> at the DSA website.

AFAICT, DSA doesn't have any hard rules/policy written down, just
evaluation on a case-by-case basis.

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Medical Wei]

Let's begin with a sin of big screen users. Say, I am using 2560x1440
display, and the website is painful to view. Adding a max-width to the
container can help.

Secondly, I think the fonts can be larger and be less crowded (by
increasing line-height).

I think there are much more we can do even without changing the content.
On Tue, 16 May 2017 at 09:53 Nikolaus Rath  wrote:

> On May 15 2017, Adam Borowski  wrote:
> >> https://www.debian.org/
> >
> > Not that different from Gentoo's.  What's the problem you're seeing?
>
> I think this is one of the those situations where if you don't see it
> yourself right away, you'll just have to take other people's word for
> it. It may not be that different for you, but there's a big difference
> for at least some other people.
>
> Best,
> -Nikolaus
>
> --
> GPG Fingerprint: ED31 791B 2C5C 1613 AF38 8B8A D113 FCAC 3C4E 599F
>
>  »Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a Banana.«
>
>

Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Nikolaus Rath]

On May 15 2017, Adam Borowski  wrote:
>> https://www.debian.org/
>
> Not that different from Gentoo's.  What's the problem you're seeing?

I think this is one of the those situations where if you don't see it
yourself right away, you'll just have to take other people's word for
it. It may not be that different for you, but there's a big difference
for at least some other people.

Best,
-Nikolaus

-- 
GPG Fingerprint: ED31 791B 2C5C 1613 AF38 8B8A D113 FCAC 3C4E 599F

 »Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a Banana.«

Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Nicholas D Steeves]

On Tue, May 16, 2017 at 02:17:40AM +0200, Stéphane Aulery wrote:
> 
> Yes, Debian is a community like another, and a community is build
> with shared principles. Design isn't principle, it is just a shameful
> exploitation of the idea of beauty, serving a precise purpose which
> is not a shared principle. Wanting to do the number is not and should
> never be a goal of Debian.
> 
> Debian say claim to be "The universal operating system". It should not be
> understood that it is used by everyone but that is generalist
> and at the service of all.
> 
> Design and advertising are one and the same, manipulating the mind through
> the image to obtain consent. We are stuck in this rotten atmosphere since
> the interwar period.

Much longer than that!  See "beauty" "deception" "kalon" vs "kallos"
in Plato's writing.  While some people use beauty to lie and cheat and
bend both truth and understanding, this is not always the case.
Something that is beautiful can be admirable and true.

If Debian's structure is all of these things, then shouldn't also be
its artwork and design?  Even website design...  Isn't this the point
of the Fibonacci logo?

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋
⠈⠳⣄

Sincerely,
Nicholas


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Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Zlatan Todoric]

Hi,


On 05/16/2017 01:48 AM, Sean Whitton wrote:
>
> More generally, while I agree that we should be flexible in the pursuit
> of new contributors and users, we mustn't lose our identity in that
> process.

Improving things doesn't mean destroying identity. We add and remove
archs, we added graphical installer, we don't configure graphics
manually anymore - did we loose identity? Social Contract and DFSG
ensure our identity imho.

>> Well Debian on its page doesn't mention it is Linux based or has Linux
>> kernel or at all word Linux.
> We have Linux, HURD and the FreeBSD kernel, though.  I suspect the
> thought was Debian hopes its practices, values and community will
> outlive any specific kernel, just like they could outlive apt/dpkg.
>
You could add the quote on which I quoted (lxde page doesn't say it can
be installable on linux) so my comment makes more sense and afaik, lxde
also can be installed on freebsd and hurd. I am there in hopes that
Debian will outlive all current things. :)

Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Stéphane Aulery]

Le 16/05/2017 02:27, Ben Hutchings a écrit :

On Tue, 2017-05-16 at 02:17 +0200, Stéphane Aulery wrote:
[...]

Yes, Debian is a community like another, and a community is build
with shared principles. Design isn't principle, it is just a shameful
exploitation of the idea of beauty, serving a precise purpose which
is not a shared principle. Wanting to do the number is not and should
never be a goal of Debian.

Debian say claim to be "The universal operating system". It should 
not 

be
understood that it is used by everyone but that is generalist
and at the service of all.

Design and advertising are one and the same, manipulating the mind 
through
the image to obtain consent. We are stuck in this rotten atmosphere 
since
the interwar period.


Please tell me this is satire.  Because if this is serious, this is
seriously rude and dismissive toward everyone in Debian who thinks and
works at a higher level than hacking on code.

It's not all about the code.  Design matters.  So does creating a
community where all kinds of contributions are valued.


Debian is the second distribution without this beautiful design that
we are often asked. No ? I do not reject the work of those who
contribute anything other than code. I personally contribute mainly
translations. I only say that if we put a very beautiful facade
in the fashion of the day we will mainly attract people
who are superficial. That does not mean that things should not be 
improved,

but that it should be reasonable. Is it less hard?

--
Stéphane Aulery

Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Ben Hutchings]

On Tue, 2017-05-16 at 02:17 +0200, Stéphane Aulery wrote:
[...]
> Yes, Debian is a community like another, and a community is build
> with shared principles. Design isn't principle, it is just a shameful
> exploitation of the idea of beauty, serving a precise purpose which
> is not a shared principle. Wanting to do the number is not and should
> never be a goal of Debian.
>
> Debian say claim to be "The universal operating system". It should not 
> be
> understood that it is used by everyone but that is generalist
> and at the service of all.
> 
> Design and advertising are one and the same, manipulating the mind 
> through
> the image to obtain consent. We are stuck in this rotten atmosphere 
> since
> the interwar period.

Please tell me this is satire.  Because if this is serious, this is
seriously rude and dismissive toward everyone in Debian who thinks and
works at a higher level than hacking on code.

It's not all about the code.  Design matters.  So does creating a
community where all kinds of contributions are valued.

Ben.

-- 
Ben Hutchings
Experience is directly proportional to the value of equipment
destroyed.
 - Carolyn
Scheppner



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Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Stéphane Aulery]

Le 16/05/2017 01:48, Sean Whitton a écrit :

Hello Zlatan,

On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 09:45:46PM +0200, Zlatan Todoric wrote:

Then lets forget about getting newcomers (fresh blood) to Debian as
you're so close minded to modern/new things - the same way they 
probably

close the window when they see '90 style with a lot of text that
actually says nothing. We are strange with our talks last few debconfs 
-
we want new people but we don't want to break our precious habits nor 
do

we want to give freedom to others to express themselves if they don't
fit into our circle of thinking which must be the best one.


I'm a relative newcomer, and I'm less than 30 years old, and one thing
that attracted me to Debian was the website's not being like lxde.org 
:)


More generally, while I agree that we should be flexible in the pursuit
of new contributors and users, we mustn't lose our identity in that
process.


Well Debian on its page doesn't mention it is Linux based or has Linux
kernel or at all word Linux.


We have Linux, HURD and the FreeBSD kernel, though.  I suspect the
thought was Debian hopes its practices, values and community will
outlive any specific kernel, just like they could outlive apt/dpkg.


Yes, Debian is a community like another, and a community is build
with shared principles. Design isn't principle, it is just a shameful
exploitation of the idea of beauty, serving a precise purpose which
is not a shared principle. Wanting to do the number is not and should
never be a goal of Debian.

Debian say claim to be "The universal operating system". It should not 
be

understood that it is used by everyone but that is generalist
and at the service of all.

Design and advertising are one and the same, manipulating the mind 
through
the image to obtain consent. We are stuck in this rotten atmosphere 
since

the interwar period.

--
Stéphane Aulery

Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth?

[Sean Whitton]

Thank you for updating us, Alex.

On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 09:13:11AM +0200, Alexander Wirt wrote:
> - Git Hosting - we want to give pagure [1] a try, which uses gitolite, which 
> is a
>   nice git solution.

Ah, that's nice.

> Pagure also has issue tracking.

Is it possible to turn this off?

I think it would be bad if we ended up with some people filing issues on
the BTS, and others filing them on Pagure.

-- 
Sean Whitton


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Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Sean Whitton]

Hello Zlatan,

On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 09:45:46PM +0200, Zlatan Todoric wrote:
> Then lets forget about getting newcomers (fresh blood) to Debian as
> you're so close minded to modern/new things - the same way they probably
> close the window when they see '90 style with a lot of text that
> actually says nothing. We are strange with our talks last few debconfs -
> we want new people but we don't want to break our precious habits nor do
> we want to give freedom to others to express themselves if they don't
> fit into our circle of thinking which must be the best one.

I'm a relative newcomer, and I'm less than 30 years old, and one thing
that attracted me to Debian was the website's not being like lxde.org :)

More generally, while I agree that we should be flexible in the pursuit
of new contributors and users, we mustn't lose our identity in that
process.

> Well Debian on its page doesn't mention it is Linux based or has Linux
> kernel or at all word Linux.

We have Linux, HURD and the FreeBSD kernel, though.  I suspect the
thought was Debian hopes its practices, values and community will
outlive any specific kernel, just like they could outlive apt/dpkg.

-- 
Sean Whitton


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Bug#862703: ITP: maven-resolver -- Library to handle Java artifact repositories

[Emmanuel Bourg]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Emmanuel Bourg 

* Package name: maven-resolver
  Version : 1.0.3
  Upstream Author : Apache Software Foundation
* URL : https://maven.apache.org/resolver/
* License : Apache-2.0
  Programming Lang: Java
  Description : Library to handle Java artifact repositories

Apache Maven Artifact Resolver is a library for working with artifact
repositories and dependency resolution. Maven Artifact Resolver deals
with the specification of local repository, remote repository, developer
workspaces, artifact transports and artifact resolution.

This library is basically the successor of Eclipse Aether which was
migrated from Eclipse to the ASF. It is required to upgrade Maven
to the version 3.5. Like eclipse-aether the maven-resolver package will
be maintained by the Java Team.

Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Scott Leggett]

On 2017-05-15.15:02, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
> http://lxde.org/ seems to be the site in question. I agree with Paul,
> I don't like it, and when I encounter pages in that style, I tend to
> close the window.
>
> * It's not nearly information-dense enough. www.debian.org is too
>   dense, but the lxde one goes too far in the other direction.
>   Something in between would be good.
> 
> * It's hard for me to navigate or to find anything. It has a short
>   one-sentence summary ("Desktop environment for all"), but nowhere on
>   the front page does it mention that it works on Linux. That
>   information is probably on some other page, linked from the front
>   page, but finding that is someone else's job.

I agree completely.

If Debian gets a page like this, I think it should be at
brochure.debian.org, perhaps with a prominent link on www.debian.org.

Please lets keep the main page information dense.

-- 
Regards,
Scott.


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Bug#862698: ITP: minecraft -- blocks to build anything you can imagine

[Carlos Donizete Froes]

Package: wnpp
Severity: wishlist
Owner: Carlos Donizete Froes 

* Package name: minecraft
  Version : 0.1
  Upstream Author : Carlos Donizete Froes 
* URL : https://minecraft.net
* License : BSD-2-Clause
  Programming Lang: Shell
  Description : blocks to build anything you can imagine

 A fantastic game that mixes creativity, survival, and exploration.
 .
 Survive alone in a blockys, pìxelated world where monsters come out at night.
 .
 Create fantastical buildings and structures, or collaborate with other
 players online.

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Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Zlatan Todoric]

On 05/15/2017 08:01 PM, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 10:12:26AM +, lumin wrote:
>> On Mon, 2017-05-15 at 11:19 +0200, Arturo Borrero Gonzalez wrote:
>>> Our users are really complaining about our look&feel in the web and we
>>> should address it.
>> I'm looking forward to a new design of our homepage, but I'm not
>> able to help since not familiar to this field.
>>
>> Take a look at the homepages of major distros:
>> https://www.opensuse.org/
> Oh no!  Kill it!  Kill it with fire!  Quickly!
>
>> https://www.centos.org/
>> https://www.ubuntu.com/
>> https://getfedora.org/
> Also abysmal.
>
>> https://manjaro.org/
>> https://linuxmint.com/
> Not good either.
>
>> https://www.archlinux.org/
>> https://gentoo.org/
> These are ok.
>
>> Especially look at the homepage of Gentoo. Some of you must
>> remember the old gentoo homepage, but now gentoo has a way much
>> prettier face. Then look at ours
>>
>> https://www.debian.org/
> Not that different from Gentoo's.  What's the problem you're seeing?
>
>> We are the last major distro that move to systemd as the
>> default init system. And now we are the last major distro
>> that keeps an old design of homepage.
> The response here seems obvious, but I won't spell it out :p
>
>> Debian is a community that driven by volunteers. I believe
>> volunteers are working hard for community at the points
>> they are interested in. I guess, possibly there are too few
>> volunteers able/intend to update the design, so the homepage is
>> just kept as is.
> If it ain't broken... (speaking about layout, not the contents.
> Improvements to the latter are always worth some effort.).
>
>> If none of the volunteers is willing to contribute a new
>> design, what about spend some money to hire several worker
>> working on this.
> The current fad seems to be javascript-only blind-unfriendly
> elinks-unfriendly bandwidth-wasting monstrosities.  I'd really prefer
> a website written by a programmer over one made by a "designer".
>
> A good page is one that lets you find information quickly, not one that
> forces you to watch animations.
>
>
I'll take any day a sort animations that explains things rather then
going through forest of information to figure out what is it, but I
guess these all are personal opinions.

Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Zlatan Todoric]

On 05/15/2017 03:01 PM, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 12:39:25PM +, Medical Wei wrote:
>> As for concerns of not informative, i think the informative part should be
>> placed in the wiki and/or have few recent articles in display. The home
>> page should be able to attract people to use Debian rather than scaring
>> people away.
>> ...
> Non-informative frontpages like the LXDE one are what scares me away.
>
>
In what way is debian.org informative?

" An operating system is the set of basic programs and utilities that
make your computer run." - I believe more people would understand better
if we would say "Debian is freedom respecting alternative to Windows and
Mac OS X".

"
Debian provides more than a pure OS: it comes with over 43000 packages
, precompiled software bundled
up in a nice format for easy installation on your machine." - we provide
more than OS and then we say it is software bundled (wtf should mean for
average Joe "nice format") which is exactly what every other OS does and
is OS thing, so what is more than pure OS here?

Everything else is click to come to some other page to read something
more about it.

Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Zlatan Todoric]

On 05/15/2017 02:02 PM, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
> On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 01:42:09PM +0200, Arturo Borrero Gonzalez wrote:
>> On 15 May 2017 at 13:30, Paul Wise  wrote:
>>> TBH if I was confronted with the new LXDE web design with CSS turned
>>> on, I would probably just close the page. The old page is way more
>>> informative and less heavy on the marketing.
>>>
>> Hi Paul,
>>
>> I believe that what we are actually looking for is a bit of
>> improvement in the marketing side.
>> Modern and fancy things.
>>
>> The LXDE example is good on that.
> http://lxde.org/ seems to be the site in question. I agree with Paul,
> I don't like it, and when I encounter pages in that style, I tend to
> close the window.

Then lets forget about getting newcomers (fresh blood) to Debian as
you're so close minded to modern/new things - the same way they probably
close the window when they see '90 style with a lot of text that
actually says nothing. We are strange with our talks last few debconfs -
we want new people but we don't want to break our precious habits nor do
we want to give freedom to others to express themselves if they don't
fit into our circle of thinking which must be the best one.
>
> * It's not nearly information-dense enough. www.debian.org is too
>   dense, but the lxde one goes too far in the other direction.
>   Something in between would be good.
>
> * It's hard for me to navigate or to find anything. It has a short
>   one-sentence summary ("Desktop environment for all"), but nowhere on
>   the front page does it mention that it works on Linux. That
>   information is probably on some other page, linked from the front
>   page, but finding that is someone else's job.
>
Well Debian on its page doesn't mention it is Linux based or has Linux
kernel or at all word Linux. And short sentences are fine - no one is
forcing you to learn all plane parts and how it works to just board it
and come from point A to B. If we want users, you need to understand
that they just want a nice looking and working OS, they don't want to be
preached about it. For devs - we just need to have something like "Want
To Become Debian Developer" and link it to some good doc.



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Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Zlatan Todoric]

On 05/15/2017 01:42 PM, Hans wrote:
> Hi there, 
>
> just a suggestion/idea. IMO it might be a good idea and advertisement to 
> debian, if people could see on the website, that debian is one of the most 
> used linuces in the world. It should also be strong pointed to, that debian 
> is 
> the source of ubuntu. You may also point to, that debian is running (as my 
> actual knowledge) on most servers in the web.
>
> Maybe other things, that people do not know yet, which show the power of 
> debian, should be mentioned (I think of biggest community, best 
> documentation, 
> best tested software and all the things, that make debian so famous).
>
> The website should proudly express all the goodness of debian, there are so 
> many, that the site is not showing at the moment. Make eyecatchers, that 
> people want to know more about it! It is it worth!
>
Actually I think this is a good idea - we should be proud that Debian is
used  and  and for sure would influence some fresh
contributions or interest in Debian.

Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth?

[Zlatan Todoric]

On 05/14/2017 11:50 PM, Ben Hutchings wrote:
> On Sun, 2017-05-14 at 23:26 +0200, Zlatan Todoric wrote:
>> On 05/14/2017 11:06 PM, Ben Hutchings wrote:
>>> Here's a tally of live packaging repositories hosted on Alioth, based
>>> on Vcs fields for sources in unstable:
>>>
>>> $ for type in arch bzr cvs darcs git hg mtn svn; do
 printf '%s: ' $type
 grep-dctrl -FVcs-$type -sPackage 'debian.org' 
 /var/lib/apt/lists/httpredir.debian.org_debian_dists_unstable_*_Sources \
 | wc -l
 done \
 | sort -k2 -nr
>>> git: 18907
>>> svn: 2377
>>> bzr: 71
>>> hg: 27
>>> darcs: 22
>>> arch: 7
>>> cvs: 2
>>> mtn: 0
>>>
>>> It looks like git hosting would cover ~90% and git+svn would cover
 99%.
>> Or convert svn ones to git and simplify things?
> That's not easy to do in general, as svn doesn't require you to label
> which parts of the directory hierarchy are tags or branches... or to
> separate independent projects.  There are conventions that make it
> easier to guess, but:
>
> - Not everything follows them
> - Repositories can be reorganised so that branches move between
> directories
> - It's entirely possible to copy to from the wrong directory level when
> tagging, which results in nonsensical history even if you revert the
> change
>
> Here's what it took for the kernel svn repository:
> https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/kernel/d-k-conversion.git/tree/kernel.rules
> But svn2git still couldn't handle everything, so we needed a lot of
> post-processing in this script too:
> https://anonscm.debian.org/cgit/kernel/d-k-conversion.git/tree/convert.sh
>
> I suspect this was one of the messier repositories, but I'm also sure
> it's not the only one that could not be handled automatically.
>
> Ben.
>
And git-svn can't help anything here (note that I do not have particular
detailed knowledge for svn but it seems we could use git-svn to import
it as git and the push back into repo as real git but I might be mistaking).

Z

Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Zlatan Todoric]

On 05/15/2017 12:32 PM, Paul Wise wrote:
> On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 6:12 PM, lumin wrote:
>
>> https://www.debian.org/
>>
>> We are the last major distro that move to systemd as the
>> default init system. And now we are the last major distro
>> that keeps an old design of homepage.
> I'd like to point out that what you are seeing is the *new* design,
> not the old design of the Debian website, which looked quite
> different.
>
Which for me was better but probably there is an easy way to explain
this: it was the first time I was on debian.org (the design before this
one) so it is more love for when I found it and it is habit. In reality,
both are ugly, clunky and habit/feeling is not helpful to new people.

Btw, I didn't discover debian.org and then download image and got
"woah", I was told about Debian, got CD with it and downloaded it via
some link on some website but for sure not debian.org which was always
way to complex with no really good info (I know now things so now it
feels all so easy and logical for me, but it wasn't before).

Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Holger Levsen]

On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 08:01:40PM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
> A good page is one that lets you find information quickly, [...]

which sadly www.debian.org doesnt deliver. I still use the sitemap to find
*anything*… and even with that, I still also resort to bookmarks 
and search engines.

it's not the css, it's the content and the structure which is lacking.


-- 
cheers,
Holger


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Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Andrey Rahmatullin]

On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 08:01:40PM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
> I'd really prefer a website written by a programmer 
[...]
> A good page is one that lets you find information quickly
Which is not the same.

-- 
WBR, wRAR


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Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Adam Borowski]

On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 10:12:26AM +, lumin wrote:
> On Mon, 2017-05-15 at 11:19 +0200, Arturo Borrero Gonzalez wrote:
> > Our users are really complaining about our look&feel in the web and we
> > should address it.
> 
> I'm looking forward to a new design of our homepage, but I'm not
> able to help since not familiar to this field.
> 
> Take a look at the homepages of major distros:

> https://www.opensuse.org/

Oh no!  Kill it!  Kill it with fire!  Quickly!

> https://www.centos.org/
> https://www.ubuntu.com/
> https://getfedora.org/

Also abysmal.

> https://manjaro.org/
> https://linuxmint.com/

Not good either.

> https://www.archlinux.org/
> https://gentoo.org/

These are ok.

> Especially look at the homepage of Gentoo. Some of you must
> remember the old gentoo homepage, but now gentoo has a way much
> prettier face. Then look at ours
> 
> https://www.debian.org/

Not that different from Gentoo's.  What's the problem you're seeing?

> We are the last major distro that move to systemd as the
> default init system. And now we are the last major distro
> that keeps an old design of homepage.

The response here seems obvious, but I won't spell it out :p

> Debian is a community that driven by volunteers. I believe
> volunteers are working hard for community at the points
> they are interested in. I guess, possibly there are too few
> volunteers able/intend to update the design, so the homepage is
> just kept as is.

If it ain't broken... (speaking about layout, not the contents.
Improvements to the latter are always worth some effort.).

> If none of the volunteers is willing to contribute a new
> design, what about spend some money to hire several worker
> working on this.

The current fad seems to be javascript-only blind-unfriendly
elinks-unfriendly bandwidth-wasting monstrosities.  I'd really prefer
a website written by a programmer over one made by a "designer".

A good page is one that lets you find information quickly, not one that
forces you to watch animations.


Meow!
-- 
Don't be racist.  White, amber or black, all beers should be judged based
solely on their merits.  Heck, even if occasionally a cider applies for a
beer's job, why not?
On the other hand, corpo lager is not a race.

Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth?

[Emmanuel Bourg]

Le 15/05/2017 à 14:43, Johannes Schauer a écrit :

> 205 Debian Java Maintainers 

The Java Team is gradually migrating its packages to Git. This usually
happens when a package needs an update. The SVN usage peaked 3 years ago
at 416 packages, and we are now mostly left with rarely updated packages
(about 20% of the team packages).

I don't know if the transition will be completed before Alioth's EOL,
but if the SVN repository remains available in ready-only mode that
should be fine.

For those interested we have a migration script available that could be
adapted to other teams:

  https://lists.debian.org/debian-java/2014/06/msg00020.html

Emmanuel Bourg

Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth?

[Nikolaus Rath]

On May 15 2017, gregor herrmann  wrote:
> On Mon, 15 May 2017 14:43:56 +0200, Johannes Schauer wrote:
>
>> Quoting Jonathan Dowland (2017-05-15 10:25:30)
>> > ^ how many of these are from teams (like pkg-gnome, at one point at least)
>> > who want to switch to git but lack the time or person-power or motivation 
>> > to
>> > perform the task?
>
>> The top 10 teams with packages in SVN are:
> […]
>> 285 Debian Perl Group 
>> [...]
>>  140 Debian Python Modules Team 
>> 
>
> The Debian Perl Group switched from svn to git in Summer 2011.

Same for the Debian Python Modules Team.

Best,
-Nikolaus

-- 
GPG Fingerprint: ED31 791B 2C5C 1613 AF38 8B8A D113 FCAC 3C4E 599F

 »Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies like a Banana.«

Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth?

[Antonio Terceiro]

On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 07:53:59PM +0800, Paul Wise wrote:
> On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 7:48 PM, Antonio Terceiro wrote:
> 
> > This is a common misconception. DSA does *not* require that the service
> > is packaged. On the contrary, they say it's better if the service is
> > *not* from a package because this way the service admin does not need to
> > have root access on the machine where the service is hosted.
> 
> Uhhh, I think that misrepresents DSA's position. For most things that
> might run on a future Alioth replacement, we would definitely want
> them packaged properly.

Right. IIRC that was said to me at Debconf16 about Debian-specific
services (such as ci.debian.net which was the context of my question).

It makes sense to prefer packages for something that has a proper
upstream that is not us, which is the case in this discussion.

In any case, it would be super useful to have this explicitly documented
at the DSA website.


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Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth?

[Alexander Wirt]

On Mon, 15 May 2017, Jonathan Dowland wrote:

> On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 10:41:09AM +0200, Alexander Wirt wrote:
> > Our list setup is pretty special and I don't think we will ever be able to
> > move to something else (and there are not many alternatives. Mailman 3 is 
> > not
> > really an option).
> 
> Disappointing to hear you have ruled out Mailman 3 entirely. I thought that it
> looked like a real positive step (especially what little I've seen of
> HyperKitty).
I tried hyperkitty with our archive. It is too slow (a lot). 

> I remember filing bugs (with patches) to improve the lists.d.o archives
> usability (adding accesskeys, etc. to the mhonarc) over ten years ago and
> getting radio silence on the bugs. So even ten years ago, IMHO, the existing
> service could use improvements, and that is even more true today.
and I remember we implemented those access keys. 

Alex

Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth?

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 10:41:09AM +0200, Alexander Wirt wrote:
> Our list setup is pretty special and I don't think we will ever be able to
> move to something else (and there are not many alternatives. Mailman 3 is not
> really an option).

Disappointing to hear you have ruled out Mailman 3 entirely. I thought that it
looked like a real positive step (especially what little I've seen of
HyperKitty).

I remember filing bugs (with patches) to improve the lists.d.o archives
usability (adding accesskeys, etc. to the mhonarc) over ten years ago and
getting radio silence on the bugs. So even ten years ago, IMHO, the existing
service could use improvements, and that is even more true today.


-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Yao Wei]

On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 04:01:36PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> Non-informative frontpages like the LXDE one are what scares me away.

Actually I agree as a user already using GNU/Linux, but for new users it
might have different experience.

> The contents of the Gentoo homepage is similar to what Debian has but 
> presented with a different CSS - something like that would be a good 
> improvement.

Agreed. I would argue that the page is too empty and every piece of news
information in the home page needs a click to view.  It could be nice to
expose a little bit more for the news articles.

Also we need something like "Why Debian?", but it could be better
represented in another page with colorful pictographs.  We need to call
designers' help for this.


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derniers jours

[I.F.T.A]

Bonjour, 
Il ne vous reste que quelques jours pour profiter de notre promotion 1 
formation achetée = 1 formation offerte.
 
Pour rappel, la formation offerte peut être la même formation à offrir à un 
proche ... ou alors une autre formation, pour vous. Il suffit simplement que la 
2eme formation, celle qui est offerte, compte le même nombre de jours que celle 
que vous avez payé !
A bientôt
Eric PORNIN - Président
 
 
J'espère ne pas vous avoir importuné avec mon mail, pour ne plus recevoir de 
mails de ma part il vous suffit de répondre à ce mail en mettant STOP dans 
l'objet du mail

Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Adrian Bunk]

On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 12:39:25PM +, Medical Wei wrote:
> As for concerns of not informative, i think the informative part should be
> placed in the wiki and/or have few recent articles in display. The home
> page should be able to attract people to use Debian rather than scaring
> people away.
>...

Non-informative frontpages like the LXDE one are what scares me away.

The contents of the Gentoo homepage is similar to what Debian has but 
presented with a different CSS - something like that would be a good 
improvement.

cu
Adrian

-- 

   "Is there not promise of rain?" Ling Tan asked suddenly out
of the darkness. There had been need of rain for many days.
   "Only a promise," Lao Er said.
   Pearl S. Buck - Dragon Seed

Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth?

[gregor herrmann]

On Mon, 15 May 2017 14:43:56 +0200, Johannes Schauer wrote:

> Quoting Jonathan Dowland (2017-05-15 10:25:30)
> > ^ how many of these are from teams (like pkg-gnome, at one point at least)
> > who want to switch to git but lack the time or person-power or motivation to
> > perform the task?

> The top 10 teams with packages in SVN are:
[…]
> 285 Debian Perl Group 

The Debian Perl Group switched from svn to git in Summer 2011.
(And removed /svn/pkg-perl on Alioth in Summer 2012, except for a
README, IIRC).

What these statistics show is that apparently we have 285 packages
which we haven't uploaded since then. And maybe also that keeping the
VCS information in the source package has some disadvantages :)


Cheers,
gregor

-- 
 .''`.  https://info.comodo.priv.at/ - Debian Developer https://www.debian.org
 : :' : OpenPGP fingerprint D1E1 316E 93A7 60A8 104D  85FA BB3A 6801 8649 AA06
 `. `'  Member of VIBE!AT & SPI, fellow of the Free Software Foundation Europe
   `-   BOFH excuse #374:  It's the InterNIC's fault. 

Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth?

[Johannes Schauer]

Quoting Jonathan Dowland (2017-05-15 10:25:30)
> On Sun, May 14, 2017 at 10:06:06PM +0100, Ben Hutchings wrote:
> > git: 18907
> > svn: 2377
> 
> ^ how many of these are from teams (like pkg-gnome, at one point at least)
> who want to switch to git but lack the time or person-power or motivation to
> perform the task?

I can only answer how many of these are from packaging teams: 1878

apt-get indextargets \
| grep-dctrl --field Created-By Sources \
--and --field Suite unstable \
--and --field Component main \
--no-field-names --show-field Filename \
| xargs /usr/lib/apt/apt-helper cat-file \
| grep-dctrl --field Vcs-svn 'debian.org' \
--and --field Maintainer lists.alioth.debian.org
--no-field-names --show-field Package \
| wc -l

The top 10 teams with packages in SVN are:

347 Debian Med Packaging Team 
285 Debian Perl Group 
221 Debian GNOME Maintainers 
205 Debian Java Maintainers 
140 Debian Python Modules Team 
135 Debian Games Team 
 91 Python Applications Packaging Team 

 70 Debichem Team 
 70 Debian Xfce Maintainers 
 59 Debian Science Team 

cheers, josch


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Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Medical Wei]

Also, as for concerns of i18n, getfedora.org gives us a good example that
it is translatable while being stylish. Though it seems that the page is
heavily purposed as a download page.

On Mon, 15 May 2017 at 20:39 Medical Wei  wrote:

> As for concerns of not informative, i think the informative part should be
> placed in the wiki and/or have few recent articles in display. The home
> page should be able to attract people to use Debian rather than scaring
> people away.
>
> Thanks for the comments too!
> On Mon, 15 May 2017 at 20:10 Hans  wrote:
>
>> Hi there,
>>
>> just a suggestion/idea. IMO it might be a good idea and advertisement to
>> debian, if people could see on the website, that debian is one of the most
>> used linuces in the world. It should also be strong pointed to, that
>> debian is
>> the source of ubuntu. You may also point to, that debian is running (as my
>> actual knowledge) on most servers in the web.
>>
>> Maybe other things, that people do not know yet, which show the power of
>> debian, should be mentioned (I think of biggest community, best
>> documentation,
>> best tested software and all the things, that make debian so famous).
>>
>> The website should proudly express all the goodness of debian, there are
>> so
>> many, that the site is not showing at the moment. Make eyecatchers, that
>> people want to know more about it! It is it worth!
>>
>> Just an idea, maybe you like it. If not, it is also ok, I am already a
>> fan. :)
>>
>> Best regards
>>
>> Hans
>>
>>

Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Medical Wei]

As for concerns of not informative, i think the informative part should be
placed in the wiki and/or have few recent articles in display. The home
page should be able to attract people to use Debian rather than scaring
people away.

Thanks for the comments too!
On Mon, 15 May 2017 at 20:10 Hans  wrote:

> Hi there,
>
> just a suggestion/idea. IMO it might be a good idea and advertisement to
> debian, if people could see on the website, that debian is one of the most
> used linuces in the world. It should also be strong pointed to, that
> debian is
> the source of ubuntu. You may also point to, that debian is running (as my
> actual knowledge) on most servers in the web.
>
> Maybe other things, that people do not know yet, which show the power of
> debian, should be mentioned (I think of biggest community, best
> documentation,
> best tested software and all the things, that make debian so famous).
>
> The website should proudly express all the goodness of debian, there are so
> many, that the site is not showing at the moment. Make eyecatchers, that
> people want to know more about it! It is it worth!
>
> Just an idea, maybe you like it. If not, it is also ok, I am already a
> fan. :)
>
> Best regards
>
> Hans
>
>

Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Stéphane Aulery]

Le 15/05/2017 13:42, Hans a écrit :


just a suggestion/idea. IMO it might be a good idea and advertisement 
to
debian, if people could see on the website, that debian is one of the 
most
used linuces in the world. It should also be strong pointed to, that 
debian is
the source of ubuntu. You may also point to, that debian is running (as 
my

actual knowledge) on most servers in the web.

Maybe other things, that people do not know yet, which show the power 
of
debian, should be mentioned (I think of biggest community, best 
documentation,

best tested software and all the things, that make debian so famous).

The website should proudly express all the goodness of debian, there 
are so
many, that the site is not showing at the moment. Make eyecatchers, 
that

people want to know more about it! It is it worth!


+10

--
Stéphane Aulery

Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Hans]

Hi there, 

just a suggestion/idea. IMO it might be a good idea and advertisement to 
debian, if people could see on the website, that debian is one of the most 
used linuces in the world. It should also be strong pointed to, that debian is 
the source of ubuntu. You may also point to, that debian is running (as my 
actual knowledge) on most servers in the web.

Maybe other things, that people do not know yet, which show the power of 
debian, should be mentioned (I think of biggest community, best documentation, 
best tested software and all the things, that make debian so famous).

The website should proudly express all the goodness of debian, there are so 
many, that the site is not showing at the moment. Make eyecatchers, that 
people want to know more about it! It is it worth!

Just an idea, maybe you like it. If not, it is also ok, I am already a fan. :)

Best regards

Hans 

Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Lars Wirzenius]

On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 01:42:09PM +0200, Arturo Borrero Gonzalez wrote:
> On 15 May 2017 at 13:30, Paul Wise  wrote:
> > TBH if I was confronted with the new LXDE web design with CSS turned
> > on, I would probably just close the page. The old page is way more
> > informative and less heavy on the marketing.
> >
> 
> Hi Paul,
> 
> I believe that what we are actually looking for is a bit of
> improvement in the marketing side.
> Modern and fancy things.
> 
> The LXDE example is good on that.

http://lxde.org/ seems to be the site in question. I agree with Paul,
I don't like it, and when I encounter pages in that style, I tend to
close the window.

* It's not nearly information-dense enough. www.debian.org is too
  dense, but the lxde one goes too far in the other direction.
  Something in between would be good.

* It's hard for me to navigate or to find anything. It has a short
  one-sentence summary ("Desktop environment for all"), but nowhere on
  the front page does it mention that it works on Linux. That
  information is probably on some other page, linked from the front
  page, but finding that is someone else's job.

-- 
I want to build worthwhile things that might last. --joeyh


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Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth?

[Paul Wise]

On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 7:48 PM, Antonio Terceiro wrote:

> This is a common misconception. DSA does *not* require that the service
> is packaged. On the contrary, they say it's better if the service is
> *not* from a package because this way the service admin does not need to
> have root access on the machine where the service is hosted.

Uhhh, I think that misrepresents DSA's position. For most things that
might run on a future Alioth replacement, we would definitely want
them packaged properly.

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth?

[Alexander Wirt]

On Mon, 15 May 2017, Antonio Terceiro wrote:

> On Sun, May 14, 2017 at 03:04:26PM +0530, Pirate Praveen wrote:
> > On ഞായര്‍ 14 മെയ് 2017 02:46 വൈകു, Yao Wei wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > Are there a discussion list of people working on the issue? I'd like to
> > > follow and see if there's any I could help.
> > > 
> > > If no, could this issue be submitted as a Debian bug?
> > 
> > As far as I understand, the only thing that is blocking is non
> > availability of pagure package.
> > 
> > So helping fix this would help move this forward (currently pagure tests
> > are failing).
> > >> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=829046
> > >>
> > 
> > After we have the package, then DSA standard processes for new service
> > would follow, I assume.
> 
> This is a common misconception. DSA does *not* require that the service
> is packaged. On the contrary, they say it's better if the service is
> *not* from a package because this way the service admin does not need to
> have root access on the machine where the service is hosted.
Thats true and I know this. But I said I wanted to have a proper packaging to
make the actual implementation easier.

Alex


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Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Stéphane Aulery]

Le 15/05/2017 12:54, Medical Wei a écrit :

> I think we need to start having a catchphrase and things that can attract new 
> users.
> 
> What I know is that we have revised our design but that is not attractive 
> enough.

It's just that this sort of things is like black holes. You can't expect
fill it. Maybe the site is not attractive enough, but it does represent
the quiet strength of Debian, not the hustle and bustle. 

I find that the information is well accessible and above all
internationalized. Internationalization is a huge effort that we do not
talk about, but it's more important than a trendy theme that will soon
be outdated. I think using external help with a bit of money is a good
idea provided the result is representative of Debian and not a reload of
the tricks of the moment.

-- 
Stéphane Aulery

Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth?

[Antonio Terceiro]

On Sun, May 14, 2017 at 03:04:26PM +0530, Pirate Praveen wrote:
> On ഞായര്‍ 14 മെയ് 2017 02:46 വൈകു, Yao Wei wrote:
> > Hi,
> > 
> > Are there a discussion list of people working on the issue? I'd like to
> > follow and see if there's any I could help.
> > 
> > If no, could this issue be submitted as a Debian bug?
> 
> As far as I understand, the only thing that is blocking is non
> availability of pagure package.
> 
> So helping fix this would help move this forward (currently pagure tests
> are failing).
> >> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=829046
> >>
> 
> After we have the package, then DSA standard processes for new service
> would follow, I assume.

This is a common misconception. DSA does *not* require that the service
is packaged. On the contrary, they say it's better if the service is
*not* from a package because this way the service admin does not need to
have root access on the machine where the service is hosted.


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Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Arturo Borrero Gonzalez]

On 15 May 2017 at 13:30, Paul Wise  wrote:
> TBH if I was confronted with the new LXDE web design with CSS turned
> on, I would probably just close the page. The old page is way more
> informative and less heavy on the marketing.
>

Hi Paul,

I believe that what we are actually looking for is a bit of
improvement in the marketing side.
Modern and fancy things.

The LXDE example is good on that.

Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Pirate Praveen]

On 2017, മേയ് 15 5:00:13 PM IST, Paul Wise  wrote:
>TBH if I was confronted with the new LXDE web design with CSS turned
>on, I would probably just close the page. The old page is way more
>informative and less heavy on the marketing.

Are we confusing website with documentation/user manual?
-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Paul Wise]

On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 6:54 PM, Medical Wei wrote:

> I think we need to start having a catchphrase

Check:

$ curl -s https://www.debian.org/ | grep ''
  Debian -- The Universal Operating System 

> What I know is that we have revised our design but that is not attractive
> enough.

We revised our visual design, but our content remains the same.

> (I did lxde.org from old.lxde.org but I don't know if that seems
> "attractive".)

TBH if I was confronted with the new LXDE web design with CSS turned
on, I would probably just close the page. The old page is way more
informative and less heavy on the marketing.

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

Re: website maintenance

[Arturo Borrero Gonzalez]

On 15 May 2017 at 12:12, Geert Stappers  wrote:
>
>
>> Our users are really complaining about our look&feel in the web
>> and we should address it.
>
> "we should do so many things"
> Thing I say about it:  Please do.
>

Of course, that's my view too.

Unfortunately, I don't have the web abilities (web technologies,
design, UX, whatever) that this task requires.

Someone have suggested to invest a bit of our money into some paid
work. I believe this idea is something worth exploring too.

Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth?

[Alexander Wirt]

On Mon, 15 May 2017, Alexander Wirt wrote:

Hi,

> > I am worried about the status of FusionForge (and thus the development 
> > workflow 
> > around Alioth) for Debian.
> > 
> > Recently I had a discussion on #alioth @OFTC asking for the possibility or 
> > plan of upgrading alioth.debian.org from Wheezy to newer Jessie or Stretch. 
> > We 
> > know Wheezy *is* EOL now with extended LTS support till 2018/05. One of the 
> > admins ("formorer") said things won't change till Wheezy LTS EOL since 
> > upgrading will surely break fusionforge and **no one** can fix fusionforge 
> > after that. The last person who touched FusionForge is Roland Mas (in CC 
> > list). In my understanding that means fusionforge is already in an 
> > unmaintained state even for now.
> > 
> > Wheezy LTS EOL will arrive within one year. After that the unavailability 
> > of 
> > Alioth will surely break everything around Alioth: the Alioth account 
> > system, 
> > Git/SVN/CVS repository and web interfaces, alioth maillist and so on. 
> > Debian's 
> > development workflow will just break down. And I believe people will not 
> > accept 
> > a platform with security holes as one of Debian's basic infrastructures.
> > 
> > As a result, I'm writing to suggest we find an answer to such a problem 
> > soon. 
> > Migration to Jessie or Stretch with new FusionForge version might be 
> > possible. 
> > Or we should just drop outdated FusionForge and move to some modern 
> > platforms 
> > like GitLab (with an alternated workflow possibly).
> > 
> > There are much room for discussion but we should start evaluation without 
> > delay, since migration would take much time and the time left is pretty 
> > limited.
> Here are my two cents and current plans:
> 
> I don't think alioth as it is has a future. It is too overloaded, a bad
> software base and not well maintained (I am sorry for that). 
> 
> I think that we should move the relevant services into new hosts/services. In
> the first step that would be:
> 
> Must have:
> 
> - Account management - I am thinking about using freeipa for that
> - Git Hosting - we want to give pagure [1] a try, which uses gitolite, which 
> is a
>   nice git solution. Regarding Hooks, no, we don't want anyone to use
>   arbitrary hooks. This is just opening a (security) can of worms. But we
>   want to provide hooks as a service. Pagure also has issue tracking. 
Just a heads up, public announcement will follow as soon as I have all
details. We plan a alioth sprint from 18th to 20th august, probably in
Hamburg, Germany. If you want to take part, please reserve the date. Yes I
know it is near to debconf, but otherwise it will happen a lot later and we
don't have that much time left (mostly my fault, but time isn't endless). 

I started a wiki page for the sprint [1]. You can add yourself if you are
interested. If you are interested in sponsoring the sprint please get in
touch with me. 

Thanks for your attention
Alex

[1] https://wiki.debian.org/Sprints/2017/Alioth


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Re: lists.alioth.debian.org WAS moving away from FusionForge on Alioth

[Alexander Wirt]

On Mon, 15 May 2017, Geert Stappers wrote:

> On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 10:41:09AM +0200, Alexander Wirt wrote:
> > On Mon, 15 May 2017, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> > > On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 09:13:11AM +0200, Alexander Wirt wrote:
> > > > Nice to have:
> > > (snip)
> > > > - Mailinglists
> > > 
> > > I've always thought it a bit weird, unfortunate (and possibly a 
> > > historical accident)
> > > that we have lists.debian.org and lists.alioth.debian.org. Could this be 
> > > an opportunity
> > > to move to one Debian mailing list service?
> > I don't think so (speaking as listmaster and alioth admin). Our lists.d.o is
> > not really suited as a self-service. Where I would be open to the creation 
> > of
> > important lists, I am not so happy on the other side about having a few
> > hundred new lists on alioth. 
> > 
> > Our list setup is pretty special and I don't think we will ever be able to
> > move to something else (and there are not many alternatives. Mailman 3 is 
> > not
> > really an option).
> 
> What options do we have?
Not much, Mailman, Sympa. Thats more or less all. Everything is either dead
or is not flexible enough. 

> Which requirements are important for the successor of current 
> lists.alioth.d.o?
Collecting all those requirements would be a bunch of work. And we don't plan
to move away from our working list system. It is fine as it is, just not
suited as a public service.

Alex

Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Medical Wei]

I think we need to start having a catchphrase and things that can attract
new users.

What I know is that we have revised our design but that is not attractive
enough.

(I did lxde.org from old.lxde.org but I don't know if that seems
"attractive".)
On Mon, 15 May 2017 at 18:33 Paul Wise  wrote:

> On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 6:12 PM, lumin wrote:
>
> > https://www.debian.org/
> >
> > We are the last major distro that move to systemd as the
> > default init system. And now we are the last major distro
> > that keeps an old design of homepage.
>
> I'd like to point out that what you are seeing is the *new* design,
> not the old design of the Debian website, which looked quite
> different.
>
> --
> bye,
> pabs
>
> https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise
>
>

Re: When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[Paul Wise]

On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 6:12 PM, lumin wrote:

> https://www.debian.org/
>
> We are the last major distro that move to systemd as the
> default init system. And now we are the last major distro
> that keeps an old design of homepage.

I'd like to point out that what you are seeing is the *new* design,
not the old design of the Debian website, which looked quite
different.

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

When do we update the homepage to a modern design? (was Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth)

[lumin]

On Mon, 2017-05-15 at 11:19 +0200, Arturo Borrero Gonzalez wrote:
> On 14 May 2017 at 11:58, lumin  wrote:
> > On the other hand, I fancy modern platforms such
> > as Gitlab, as a user. And wondering when Debian
> > will update its homepage (www.d.o) to a modern
> > design[1].
> > 
> > [1] This is off-thread, but some of my young
> > friends just gave up trying Debian at the
> > first glance at our homepage.
> 
> off-thread, yes. But please spawn another thread to talk about this
> real issue.

> Our users are really complaining about our look&feel in the web and
> we
> should address it.

I'm looking forward to a new design of our homepage, but I'm not
able to help since not familiar to this field.

Take a look at the homepages of major distros:

https://www.archlinux.org/
https://www.centos.org/
https://www.opensuse.org/
https://manjaro.org/
https://www.ubuntu.com/
https://getfedora.org/
https://linuxmint.com/
https://gentoo.org/

Especially look at the homepage of Gentoo. Some of you must
remember the old gentoo homepage, but now gentoo has a way much
prettier face. Then look at ours

https://www.debian.org/

We are the last major distro that move to systemd as the
default init system. And now we are the last major distro
that keeps an old design of homepage.

Debian is a community that driven by volunteers. I believe
volunteers are working hard for community at the points
they are interested in. I guess, possibly there are too few
volunteers able/intend to update the design, so the homepage is
just kept as is.

If none of the volunteers is willing to contribute a new
design, what about spend some money to hire several worker
working on this. neilm pointed out that we don't know how
to spend our money at Debconf16, that we don't know how
to spend our money. Making the community better is a good
reason for doing so, since a modern design may
attract more users/contributors, and is less likely to scare
newbies away ...

Even if Debian is ranked number 2 at distrowatch.

Re: lists.alioth.debian.org WAS moving away from FusionForge on Alioth

[Geert Stappers]

On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 10:41:09AM +0200, Alexander Wirt wrote:
> On Mon, 15 May 2017, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> > On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 09:13:11AM +0200, Alexander Wirt wrote:
> > > Nice to have:
> > (snip)
> > > - Mailinglists
> > 
> > I've always thought it a bit weird, unfortunate (and possibly a historical 
> > accident)
> > that we have lists.debian.org and lists.alioth.debian.org. Could this be an 
> > opportunity
> > to move to one Debian mailing list service?
> I don't think so (speaking as listmaster and alioth admin). Our lists.d.o is
> not really suited as a self-service. Where I would be open to the creation of
> important lists, I am not so happy on the other side about having a few
> hundred new lists on alioth. 
> 
> Our list setup is pretty special and I don't think we will ever be able to
> move to something else (and there are not many alternatives. Mailman 3 is not
> really an option).

What options do we have?

Which requirements are important for the successor of current lists.alioth.d.o?



Groeten
Geert Stappers
-- 
Leven en laten leven

website maintenance

[Geert Stappers]

X-Previous-Subject: Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth
On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 11:19:47AM +0200, Arturo Borrero Gonzalez wrote:
> On 14 May 2017 at 11:58, lumin  wrote:
> > On the other hand, I fancy modern platforms such
> > as Gitlab, as a user. And wondering when Debian
> > will update its homepage (www.d.o) to a modern
> > design[1].
> >
> > [1] This is off-thread, but some of my young
> > friends just gave up trying Debian at the
> > first glance at our homepage.
> >
> 
> off-thread, yes. But please spawn another thread to talk about this real 
> issue.

Doing so right now.


> Our users are really complaining about our look&feel in the web
> and we should address it.

"we should do so many things"
Thing I say about it:  Please do.

Whom ever steps forward for taking the Debian.org website in maintenance:
 * Downtime for several hours is fine
 * Is it okay to switch to a divert Version Control System. Yes, please move 
away from CVS
 * If translation workflow breaks, so be it. One challenge/problem at a time
 * The change will also effect the www-team. That is good


Groeten
Geert Stappers
-- 
You can't make an omelet without breaking eggs

Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth

[Arturo Borrero Gonzalez]

On 14 May 2017 at 11:58, lumin  wrote:
> On the other hand, I fancy modern platforms such
> as Gitlab, as a user. And wondering when Debian
> will update its homepage (www.d.o) to a modern
> design[1].
>
> [1] This is off-thread, but some of my young
> friends just gave up trying Debian at the
> first glance at our homepage.
>

off-thread, yes. But please spawn another thread to talk about this real issue.

Our users are really complaining about our look&feel in the web and we
should address it.

Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth?

[Riku Voipio]

On Sun, May 14, 2017 at 10:50:20PM +0100, Ben Hutchings wrote:
> On Sun, 2017-05-14 at 23:26 +0200, Zlatan Todoric wrote:

> > Or convert svn ones to git and simplify things?

+1
 
> I suspect this was one of the messier repositories, but I'm also sure
> it's not the only one that could not be handled automatically.

I appreceate the effort you have done on the kernel repository.

OTOH it might just not be worth to convert all project histories into
git. Linus didn't do it for upstream kernel either. Convert the easy
cases automatically and leave the rest ones for maintainers as an
opportunity to do a clean start.

Else we risk delaying moving forward because time is spent supporting
esoteric legacy workflows.

Riku

Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth?

[Alexander Wirt]

On Mon, 15 May 2017, Jonathan Dowland wrote:

> On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 09:13:11AM +0200, Alexander Wirt wrote:
> > Nice to have:
> (snip)
> > - Mailinglists
> 
> I've always thought it a bit weird, unfortunate (and possibly a historical 
> accident)
> that we have lists.debian.org and lists.alioth.debian.org. Could this be an 
> opportunity
> to move to one Debian mailing list service?
I don't think so (speaking as listmaster and alioth admin). Our lists.d.o is
not really suited as a self-service. Where I would be open to the creation of
important lists, I am not so happy on the other side about having a few
hundred new lists on alioth. 

Our list setup is pretty special and I don't think we will ever be able to
move to something else (and there are not many alternatives. Mailman 3 is not
really an option).

Just my 2 cents
Alex

Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth?

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Mon, May 15, 2017 at 09:13:11AM +0200, Alexander Wirt wrote:
> Nice to have:
(snip)
> - Mailinglists

I've always thought it a bit weird, unfortunate (and possibly a historical 
accident)
that we have lists.debian.org and lists.alioth.debian.org. Could this be an 
opportunity
to move to one Debian mailing list service?

-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth?

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Sun, May 14, 2017 at 10:06:06PM +0100, Ben Hutchings wrote:
> git: 18907
> svn: 2377

^ how many of these are from teams (like pkg-gnome, at one point at least) who 
want
to switch to git but lack the time or person-power or motivation to perform the 
task?

-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth?

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Sun, May 14, 2017 at 10:29:10PM +, Holger Levsen wrote:
> If we had this GR in say, a month, projects would have almost a year to 
> migrate
> their stuff away nicely, and 18 months to do it a bit more painfully.

I can see the attraction of this, and it would certainly be easier to get
project consensus around factual stuff like that than the issue of having a
single, project-blessed, infrastructure-hosted replacement, but without such a
replacement being in-place, we will have a diaspora of projects and packages
going to all sorts of different places, which would be a disaster IMHO from
a contributor-complexity POV.

-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth?

[Boyuan Yang]

在 2017年5月14日星期日 +08 下午6:39:22，Sergio Durigan Junior 写道：
> On Sunday, May 14 2017, Boyuan Yang wrote:
> > 在 2017年5月14日星期日 CST 下午3:04:26，Pirate Praveen 写道：
> > 
> >> As far as I understand, the only thing that is blocking is non
> >> availability of pagure package.
> >> 
> >> So helping fix this would help move this forward (currently pagure tests
> >> are failing).
> >> 
> >> >> https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=829046
> >> 
> >> After we have the package, then DSA standard processes for new service
> >> would follow, I assume.
> Sure.  I'll move everything to collab-maint as soon as I get back home,
> as I said earilier.

That would be great.

> >> Could you tell me where can I find the proper packaging repository?
> > 
> > I have pushed my copy here
> > https://git.fosscommunity.in/praveen/pagure
> > 
> > It was originally at git://git.sergiodj.net/debian/pagure-new.git
> 
> Thanks for doing that.

I took a look into pagure packaging (both upstream latest version 2.14.2 and 
Debian packaging version 2.6+dfsg from the git repo above) and things look 
like a nightmare. Under Debian Testing and Debian Unstable, current packaging 
did not create a working database for unittests. If we create db manually 
(before dh_auto_test) and run unittest again, things can fail severely (around 
60+/290+ units fail, not just 5). 

Hence it would be great if anyone familiar with Python2 and Flask could help 
improve the status of pagure packaging.

--
Boyuan Yang

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Re: Moving away from (unsupportable) FusionForge on Alioth?

[Alexander Wirt]

On Sun, 14 May 2017, Boyuan Yang wrote:

Hi,

> I am worried about the status of FusionForge (and thus the development 
> workflow 
> around Alioth) for Debian.
> 
> Recently I had a discussion on #alioth @OFTC asking for the possibility or 
> plan of upgrading alioth.debian.org from Wheezy to newer Jessie or Stretch. 
> We 
> know Wheezy *is* EOL now with extended LTS support till 2018/05. One of the 
> admins ("formorer") said things won't change till Wheezy LTS EOL since 
> upgrading will surely break fusionforge and **no one** can fix fusionforge 
> after that. The last person who touched FusionForge is Roland Mas (in CC 
> list). In my understanding that means fusionforge is already in an 
> unmaintained state even for now.
> 
> Wheezy LTS EOL will arrive within one year. After that the unavailability of 
> Alioth will surely break everything around Alioth: the Alioth account system, 
> Git/SVN/CVS repository and web interfaces, alioth maillist and so on. 
> Debian's 
> development workflow will just break down. And I believe people will not 
> accept 
> a platform with security holes as one of Debian's basic infrastructures.
> 
> As a result, I'm writing to suggest we find an answer to such a problem soon. 
> Migration to Jessie or Stretch with new FusionForge version might be 
> possible. 
> Or we should just drop outdated FusionForge and move to some modern platforms 
> like GitLab (with an alternated workflow possibly).
> 
> There are much room for discussion but we should start evaluation without 
> delay, since migration would take much time and the time left is pretty 
> limited.
Here are my two cents and current plans:

I don't think alioth as it is has a future. It is too overloaded, a bad
software base and not well maintained (I am sorry for that). 

I think that we should move the relevant services into new hosts/services. In
the first step that would be:

Must have:

- Account management - I am thinking about using freeipa for that
- Git Hosting - we want to give pagure [1] a try, which uses gitolite, which is 
a
  nice git solution. Regarding Hooks, no, we don't want anyone to use
  arbitrary hooks. This is just opening a (security) can of worms. But we
  want to provide hooks as a service. Pagure also has issue tracking. 

Nice to have:

- SVN / CVS Hosting (SVN as there a still a lot of users and CVS for webml)
- Mailinglists

Things I/we don't want in the future:

- Shell Hosting
- More or less obsolete Version Controlsystems, like Darcs, Bazar and so on.

We should strip down the future set to a working and maintainable minimum. 

Just my 2 cent

Alex - Alioth Admin

[1] https://www.freeipa.org/page/Main_Page
[2] http://pagure.io


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