Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
On Thu, Jul 31, 2003 at 11:21:57AM +0200, Sam Hocevar wrote: For instance it fails to remove this construct: link type=text/css rel=stylesheet href=/foo.css / Or rel=alternate stylesheet, and the various combinations that arise from support of non-graphical readers, etc. If this does get packaged it'll certainly have a lot of bugs filed against it, so the maintainer needs to be aware that it may be more of a responsibility than just a political statement. -- Jon Dowland
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
Hi, On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 12:01:29PM -0500, Steve Langasek wrote: On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 12:48:55PM -0400, Jim Penny wrote: On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:38:12 -0500 Steve Langasek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 05:56:32PM +0200, Emile van Bergen wrote: I object to this ITP. Not very strongly, but I still object. I think it's a wonderful idea to have a decss package in Debian. If Debian cannot distribute the decss that allows Debian users to view DVD movies (yet), then distributing this one is a good alternative, I'd say. You're clearly quite mad. Regardless of whether this script is trivial to implement, it's not something anyone should be encouraged to actually*use*. CSS is the *best* feature of the HTML4 standard. Why would anyone in their right mind wish to strip nearly all the logical structure markup out of a document? Uhh, it is to tweak the international copyright cartel, and the RIAA in particular. They have written cease and desist letters to anyone who has a file names deCSS on their system. This is an attempt to make such a filename so common that these letters are pointless, and possibly evidence of illegal activity. If the intent is *only* as a political tool, I would agree that this decss program achieves its aims fairly effectively; but it is in no way a useful piece of *software*, which is what Emile seems to be arguing by disagreeing that it's trivial to implement. The question then is whether we want to include programs in Debian which are useful only as something other than software. I'm not arguing that it isn't almost trivial, I'm arguing that it's non-trivial enough to put in a shell script (at least I would if I'd be performing the operation regularly). Whether it deserves a Debian package has little to do with that, of course. It's much more useful as a political tool if it is at least somewhat useful as a software tool. A file containing some output of /dev/random called decss would be less effective. I see packaging as a good protest that we cannot package the real decss, which would definitely be a candidate for a debian package, as it is required to watch DVDs using DFSG-free software. As soon as we can package the real thing, we should probably rename the HTML/CSS decss as decss-html and release the real decss using a new epoch. The principle is horrible, but in this case I think the confusion would be minimal. Cheers, Emile. -- E-Advies - Emile van Bergen [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel. +31 (0)70 3906153 http://www.e-advies.nl
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
On Thu, Jul 31, 2003 at 09:03:00AM +0200, Emile van Bergen wrote: As soon as we can package the real thing, we should probably rename the HTML/CSS decss as decss-html and release the real decss using a new epoch. No need, the real decss will probably be a library or something such. Friendly, Sven Luther
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
Emile van Bergen [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: As soon as we can package the real thing, we should probably rename the HTML/CSS decss as decss-html and release the real decss using a new epoch. Whit even more confusion to our users for a weak political statement whit no real relation to the project. Read the Social Contract and stop makin political statements unrelated to free software as such which hurts our users. How the entertainment industry manages to handle their copyright has nothing to do with free software. -- Peter Makholm | Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice, pull down your [EMAIL PROTECTED] |pants and slide on the ice http://hacking.dk |-- Sidney Freedman
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
On Wed, Jul 30, 2003, Emile van Bergen wrote: And what is the point of confusing our users and cluttering the package/ executable namespace with a useless program that could be replaced with a sed one-liner? If it's so easy to type in, I'd have expected it in your response. Well, I expected someone to ask me this. But I fail to see how showing off my l33t s3d sk1llz would strenghten my point. The only effect it will have is people nitpicking at possible caveats for strange HTML syntax examples, and forgetting the real point which is: that decss program is utterly useless. I expect anyone with minor common sense and minor sed/ awk/perl/whatever practice to understand the triviality of that program. I object to this ITP. Not very strongly, but I still object. I think it's a wonderful idea to have a decss package in Debian. If Debian cannot distribute the decss that allows Debian users to view DVD movies (yet), then distributing this one is a good alternative, I'd say. This is really no different from the RIAA uploading broken MP3s to P2P networks so that users think they are real music. (Disclaimer: I am really not a music piracy advocate, but I strongly believe that such behaviour has the sole effect of confusing users) If the DVD decss cannot be distributed and someone wants to fight this, the solution is to distribute it anyway until it becomes so widespread that no one can make it disappear. Regards, -- Sam.
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
* Sam Hocevar | On Wed, Jul 30, 2003, Emile van Bergen wrote: | | And what is the point of confusing our users and cluttering the package/ | executable namespace with a useless program that could be replaced with | a sed one-liner? | | If it's so easy to type in, I'd have expected it in your response. | |Well, I expected someone to ask me this. But I fail to see how showing | off my l33t s3d sk1llz would strenghten my point. The only effect it will | have is people nitpicking at possible caveats for strange HTML syntax | examples, and forgetting the real point which is: that decss program is | utterly useless. I expect anyone with minor common sense and minor sed/ | awk/perl/whatever practice to understand the triviality of that program. It's not possible to parse all valid SGML using regexes, iirc. -- Tollef Fog Heen,''`. UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' : `. `' `-
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
Sam Hocevar wrote: I object to this ITP. Not very strongly, but I still object. I think it's a wonderful idea to have a decss package in Debian. If Debian cannot distribute the decss that allows Debian users to view DVD movies (yet), then distributing this one is a good alternative, I'd say. This is really no different from the RIAA uploading broken MP3s to P2P networks so that users think they are real music. (Disclaimer: I am really not a music piracy advocate, but I strongly believe that such behaviour has the sole effect of confusing users) Although the RIAA might confusing P2P network users as a good thing. I would hope confusing debian users would be seen as a Bad Thing(tm) ;) -- Keith
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
On Wed, Jul 30, 2003, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: |And what is the point of confusing our users and cluttering the package/ | executable namespace with a useless program that could be replaced with | a sed one-liner? oh? what sed one-liner would that be? That trivial one, for instance: sed -e 's%\(link[^]*rel=stylesheet[^]*\|style.*/style\|\(style\|class\|id\)=[^]*\)%%g' It can be made better, of course. But honestly, the original DeCSS Perl version is an utter piece of crap, too. I now additionally object to the ITP on the grounds of poor software quality. For instance it fails to remove this construct: link type=text/css rel=stylesheet href=/foo.css / And it wrongly removes style=blah in this one: p Hello, this paragraph is about the famous style=blah phrase! p Without a correct HTML parser, such a DeCSS program cannot be reliable. Cheers, -- Sam.
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
On Thu, Jul 31, 2003, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: | I expect anyone with minor common sense and minor sed/ | awk/perl/whatever practice to understand the triviality of that program. It's not possible to parse all valid SGML using regexes, iirc. And HTML makes it even harder since very few pages are valid, but that DeCSS utility uses only regexes anyway. -- Sam.
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
* Sam Hocevar | On Wed, Jul 30, 2003, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: | | |And what is the point of confusing our users and cluttering the package/ | | executable namespace with a useless program that could be replaced with | | a sed one-liner? | | oh? what sed one-liner would that be? | |That trivial one, for instance: | | sed -e 's%\(link[^]*rel=stylesheet[^]*\|style.*/style\|\(style\|class\|id\)=[^]*\)%%g' it doesn't handle style/text-align: left / kind of elements either. |It can be made better, of course. But honestly, the original DeCSS | Perl version is an utter piece of crap, too. I now additionally object | to the ITP on the grounds of poor software quality. If it's going to work, it should work the right way. -- Tollef Fog Heen,''`. UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' : `. `' `-
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
On Thu, Jul 31, 2003, Tollef Fog Heen wrote: | sed -e 's%\(link[^]*rel=stylesheet[^]*\|style.*/style\|\(style\|class\|id\)=[^]*\)%%g' it doesn't handle style/text-align: left / kind of elements either. And does decss handle them? If it does not, I suggest you explain the point you are trying to make. If you are trying to prove that decss is full of bugs, well thank you very much but I knew it. If you are trying to prove that my sed script does not do what decss claims to do, thank you too but I never made that claim, I just claimed that decss could be replaced by that script. It's also funny that in [EMAIL PROTECTED] I predicted that the only effect it will have is people nitpicking at possible caveats for strange HTML syntax examples. :-) Regards, -- Sam.
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
SL == Steve Langasek [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: SL Since you're the upstream author, I'll ask: have you ever SL actually used this script yourself? If so... why? :) (And is SL the stripping of class/id attributes a bug?) I've used the script to promote freedom. For that particular case, no, stripping of class and id is not a bug. ~ESP -- Evan Prodromou [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
Evan Prodromou [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I've used the script to promote freedom. How the hell does you promote freedom by removing stylesheets from html? -- Peter Makholm | Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice, pull down your [EMAIL PROTECTED] |pants and slide on the ice http://hacking.dk |-- Sidney Freedman
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
PM == Peter Makholm [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: PM How the entertainment industry manages to handle their PM copyright has nothing to do with free software. You know nothing, pink boy. ~ESP -- Evan Prodromou [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
Evan Prodromou [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: PM How the entertainment industry manages to handle their PM copyright has nothing to do with free software. You know nothing, pink boy. I know a lot of thing and I know that it is impossible for some people to differenciate between free software and how ever the entertainmen industry handles their given rights. So either we should stop here or do som serious flaming: 'pink boy' you should be better than that, try again. -- Peter Makholm |'Cause suicide is painless [EMAIL PROTECTED] | It brings on many changes http://hacking.dk |And I can take or leave it if I please |-- Suicide is painless
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
On Thursday 31 July 2003 11:27, Sam Hocevar wrote: And HTML makes it even harder since very few pages are valid, but that DeCSS utility uses only regexes anyway. Technically, using RegExps for CSS will not only become maintenance hell, but would also limit the usability of such a script for e.g. network transparency. If at all, the way to go would be to use a decent HTML parser library (khtml, gecko come to mind, even Python's htmlparser is not mature enough yet), which not only gives the (internal, external) stylesheet but all components of the DOM and whatnot, and use scripting facilities to modify this object, and dump the resulting modified object to e.g. stdout. 'HTML' and 'leightweight' will hardly fit together. Josef -- Play for fun, win for freedom. Hurd^H^H^H^HLinux-Info-Tag Dresden 2003: http://www.linux-dresden.de
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
PM == Peter Makholm [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Me I've used the script to promote freedom. PM How the hell does you promote freedom by removing stylesheets PM from html? It's amazing, isn't it? Anyways, the W3C thought the tool was important enough to list on their CSS site: http://www.w3.org/Style/CSS/ The idea that valuable Free Software for an important Web standard isn't available in Debian is unconscionable. But, of course, being a running-dog bootlicking collaborationist TOOL OF THE MAN, you probably don't understand that. It's kind of sad, but as they say, Free your mind and your CSS will follow. ~ESP -- Evan Prodromou [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
Package: wnpp Version: unavailable; reported 2003-07-30 Severity: wishlist * Package name: decss Version : 0.06 Upstream Author : Mr. Bad of Pigdog Journal [EMAIL PROTECTED] * URL : http://www.pigdog.org/decss/ * License : Artistic Description : utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page. DeCSS is a utility for stripping Cascading Style Sheet (CSS) tags from an HTML page. That's all it does. It has no relationship whatsoever to encryption, copy protection, movies, software freedom, oppressive industry cartels, Web site witch hunts, or any other bad things that could get you in trouble. There are license problems. The Artistic license is not present in their distribution. I'll ask the author about this. -- System Information: Debian Release: testing/unstable Architecture: i386 Kernel: Linux aragorn 2.2.25 #1 Fri Jun 20 19:28:33 EST 2003 i686 Locale: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 03:52:51PM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Package: wnpp Version: unavailable; reported 2003-07-30 Severity: wishlist * Package name: decss Like that won't be a confusing package name. ;-p -- Chad Walstrom [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.wookimus.net/ assert(expired(knowledge)); /* core dump */
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
Chad Walstrom wrote: On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 03:52:51PM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Package: wnpp Version: unavailable; reported 2003-07-30 Severity: wishlist * Package name: decss Like that won't be a confusing package name. ;-p If you read the website, that was the point ;) -- Keith
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
On Wed, Jul 30, 2003, Keith Dunwoody wrote: * Package name: decss Like that won't be a confusing package name. ;-p If you read the website, that was the point ;) And what is the point of confusing our users and cluttering the package/ executable namespace with a useless program that could be replaced with a sed one-liner? I object to this ITP. Not very strongly, but I still object. -- Sam.
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
Hi, On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 04:56:15PM +0200, Sam Hocevar wrote: On Wed, Jul 30, 2003, Keith Dunwoody wrote: * Package name: decss Like that won't be a confusing package name. ;-p If you read the website, that was the point ;) And what is the point of confusing our users and cluttering the package/ executable namespace with a useless program that could be replaced with a sed one-liner? Cluttering the namespace? The name isn't very generic, I'd say. A moderately complex sed one-liner is probably all that's needed, but to have it in a file is nice. If it's so easy to type in, I'd have expected it in your response. I object to this ITP. Not very strongly, but I still object. I think it's a wonderful idea to have a decss package in Debian. If Debian cannot distribute the decss that allows Debian users to view DVD movies (yet), then distributing this one is a good alternative, I'd say. Cheers, Emile. -- E-Advies - Emile van Bergen [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel. +31 (0)70 3906153 http://www.e-advies.nl
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
Keith Dunwoody [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Chad Walstrom wrote: On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 03:52:51PM +, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Package: wnpp Version: unavailable; reported 2003-07-30 Severity: wishlist * Package name: decss Like that won't be a confusing package name. ;-p If you read the website, that was the point ;) The website also says: I wrote a small utility called DeCSS that strips Cascading Style Sheet tags from an HTML document. Yes, agreed, that's pretty much USELESS, but what the fuck. Maybe somebody wants to do that. Why the hell should this be packaged for Debian? -- I'm sick of being the guy who eats insects and gets the funny syphilis. pgpHPgXF6pLdc.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 09:07:19AM -0700, Brian Nelson wrote: I wrote a small utility called DeCSS that strips Cascading Style Sheet tags from an HTML document. Yes, agreed, that's pretty much USELESS, but what the fuck. Maybe somebody wants to do that. Why the hell should this be packaged for Debian? Obviously because the ITPer wishes to play a prank on the people who unwittingly install it hoping to crack all of their DVDs. I object strongly too... this is like having one of those 'joke' shells in the archive :) -Josh -- Using words to describe magic is like using a screwdriver to cut roast beef. -- Tom Robbins pgpCCly2EV5b0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 05:56:32PM +0200, Emile van Bergen wrote: I object to this ITP. Not very strongly, but I still object. I think it's a wonderful idea to have a decss package in Debian. If Debian cannot distribute the decss that allows Debian users to view DVD movies (yet), then distributing this one is a good alternative, I'd say. You're clearly quite mad. Regardless of whether this script is trivial to implement, it's not something anyone should be encouraged to actually *use*. CSS is the *best* feature of the HTML4 standard. Why would anyone in their right mind wish to strip nearly all the logical structure markup out of a document? -- Steve Langasek postmodern programmer pgpacsyjKuKou.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 09:33:15AM -0700, Joshua Kwan wrote: I object strongly too... this is like having one of those 'joke' shells in the archive :) Unfortunately, there's a strong historical precedent for the inclusion of csh, making it difficult to get rid of... The same thing could happen if we let this package into the archive. ;) -- Steve Langasek postmodern programmer pgp1EHOE7c4T4.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:38:12 -0500 Steve Langasek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 05:56:32PM +0200, Emile van Bergen wrote: I object to this ITP. Not very strongly, but I still object. I think it's a wonderful idea to have a decss package in Debian. If Debian cannot distribute the decss that allows Debian users to view DVD movies (yet), then distributing this one is a good alternative, I'd say. You're clearly quite mad. Regardless of whether this script is trivial to implement, it's not something anyone should be encouraged to actually*use*. CSS is the *best* feature of the HTML4 standard. Why would anyone in their right mind wish to strip nearly all the logical structure markup out of a document? Uhh, it is to tweak the international copyright cartel, and the RIAA in particular. They have written cease and desist letters to anyone who has a file names deCSS on their system. This is an attempt to make such a filename so common that these letters are pointless, and possibly evidence of illegal activity. Jim Penny
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 12:48:55PM -0400, Jim Penny wrote: On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:38:12 -0500 Steve Langasek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 05:56:32PM +0200, Emile van Bergen wrote: I object to this ITP. Not very strongly, but I still object. I think it's a wonderful idea to have a decss package in Debian. If Debian cannot distribute the decss that allows Debian users to view DVD movies (yet), then distributing this one is a good alternative, I'd say. You're clearly quite mad. Regardless of whether this script is trivial to implement, it's not something anyone should be encouraged to actually*use*. CSS is the *best* feature of the HTML4 standard. Why would anyone in their right mind wish to strip nearly all the logical structure markup out of a document? Uhh, it is to tweak the international copyright cartel, and the RIAA in particular. They have written cease and desist letters to anyone who has a file names deCSS on their system. This is an attempt to make such a filename so common that these letters are pointless, and possibly evidence of illegal activity. If the intent is *only* as a political tool, I would agree that this decss program achieves its aims fairly effectively; but it is in no way a useful piece of *software*, which is what Emile seems to be arguing by disagreeing that it's trivial to implement. The question then is whether we want to include programs in Debian which are useful only as something other than software. -- Steve Langasek postmodern programmer pgpWRpHDRkgPY.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
Steve Langasek [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 05:56:32PM +0200, Emile van Bergen wrote:
I object to this ITP. Not very strongly, but I still object.
I think it's a wonderful idea to have a decss package in Debian. If
Debian cannot distribute the decss that allows Debian users to view DVD
movies (yet), then distributing this one is a good alternative, I'd say.
You're clearly quite mad. Regardless of whether this script is trivial
to implement, it's not something anyone should be encouraged to actually
*use*. CSS is the *best* feature of the HTML4 standard. Why would
anyone in their right mind wish to strip nearly all the logical
structure markup out of a document?
*cough*
CSS is *not* the logical structure markup of a html document. The main
feature of HTML4/XHTML and CSS(|2|3) is the separation of structure and
design (as you said): HTML should be used to structure content in a
usable way (ie one can extract the given information from the document
in every environment, with or without a CSS-capable display software)
while CSS is used to create a wonderful world for salesdroids.
Marc
--
$_=')(hBCdzVnS})3..0}_$;//::niam/s~=)]3[))_$(rellac(=_$({pam(esrever })e$.)4/3*
)e$(htgnel+23(rhc,u(kcapnu ,nioj ;|_- |/+9-0z-aZ-A|rt~=e$;_$=e${pam tnirp{y
V2ajFGabus} yV2ajFGa{gwmclBHIbus}gwmclBHI{yVGa09mbbus}yVGa09mb{hBCdzVnSbus';
s/\n//g;s/bus/\nbus/g;eval scalar reverse # mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
Hi, On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 11:38:12AM -0500, Steve Langasek wrote: On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 05:56:32PM +0200, Emile van Bergen wrote: I object to this ITP. Not very strongly, but I still object. I think it's a wonderful idea to have a decss package in Debian. If Debian cannot distribute the decss that allows Debian users to view DVD movies (yet), then distributing this one is a good alternative, I'd say. You're clearly quite mad. Regardless of whether this script is trivial to implement, it's not something anyone should be encouraged to actually *use*. CSS is the *best* feature of the HTML4 standard. Why would anyone in their right mind wish to strip nearly all the logical structure markup out of a document? CSS is not the logical structure, it provides hints about the rendering of the logical structure as given by the HTML tags. Cheers, Emile. -- E-Advies - Emile van Bergen [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel. +31 (0)70 3906153 http://www.e-advies.nl
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 06:56:53PM +0200, Marc 'HE' Brockschmidt wrote: Steve Langasek [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 05:56:32PM +0200, Emile van Bergen wrote: I object to this ITP. Not very strongly, but I still object. I think it's a wonderful idea to have a decss package in Debian. If Debian cannot distribute the decss that allows Debian users to view DVD movies (yet), then distributing this one is a good alternative, I'd say. You're clearly quite mad. Regardless of whether this script is trivial to implement, it's not something anyone should be encouraged to actually *use*. CSS is the *best* feature of the HTML4 standard. Why would anyone in their right mind wish to strip nearly all the logical structure markup out of a document? *cough* CSS is *not* the logical structure markup of a html document. The main feature of HTML4/XHTML and CSS(|2|3) is the separation of structure and design (as you said): HTML should be used to structure content in a usable way (ie one can extract the given information from the document in every environment, with or without a CSS-capable display software) while CSS is used to create a wonderful world for salesdroids. In addition to removing style tags, the DeCSS script removes class and id attributes. Therefore, strictly speaking, not everything removed is CSS; and much of it is likely to be logical markup. -- Steve Langasek postmodern programmer pgpOYoTWSElMF.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
* Sam Hocevar | On Wed, Jul 30, 2003, Keith Dunwoody wrote: | * Package name: decss | | Like that won't be a confusing package name. ;-p | | If you read the website, that was the point ;) | |And what is the point of confusing our users and cluttering the package/ | executable namespace with a useless program that could be replaced with | a sed one-liner? oh? what sed one-liner would that be? -- Tollef Fog Heen,''`. UNIX is user friendly, it's just picky about who its friends are : :' : `. `' `-
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
On 2003-07-30T12:22:55-0500 (Wednesday), Steve Langasek wrote: In addition to removing style tags, the DeCSS script removes class and id attributes. Therefore, strictly speaking, not everything removed is CSS; and much of it is likely to be logical markup. Removing the id attribute is downright stupid, because it serves as what the name attribute was for HTML XHTML in XHTML; i.e. for usage with internal links and all that. -towo -- Words are the litmus paper of the minds. If you find yourself in the power of someone who will use the word commence in cold blood, go somewhere else very quickly. But if they say Enter, don't stop to pack. - Terry Pratchett in «Small Gods» pgpIntKFqNrEf.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
Jim Penny [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: (Cc'ed the bug-report) Uhh, it is to tweak the international copyright cartel, and the RIAA in particular. They have written cease and desist letters to anyone who has a file names deCSS on their system. If this is the main reason to include it in Debian I would like to voice my objections too (For what it is worth). Given that the political statement is the reason for having this package I belive it is unnecessary cluttering of the archive and added extra confusion to our users. Our main priorities is Free Software and our users and confusing them for a vauge political statement with no real direct connection to free software is against our Social Contract. Robert, I urge you to retract you ITP of this pacakge unless you can come up with technical arguments for including the package. I know the above is worded rather strong and I would probaly not go any further if you decides to keep you ITP. One package doesn't in itself lead to many problems but I would rather stop it before I should fight a to strong precedence to keep useless political statement out of Debian. -- Peter Makholm | Why does the entertainment industry wants us to [EMAIL PROTECTED] | believe that a society base on full surveillance http://hacking.dk | is bad? | Do they have something to hide?
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 12:48:55PM -0400, Jim Penny wrote: On Wed, 30 Jul 2003 11:38:12 -0500 Steve Langasek [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 05:56:32PM +0200, Emile van Bergen wrote: I object to this ITP. Not very strongly, but I still object. I think it's a wonderful idea to have a decss package in Debian. If Debian cannot distribute the decss that allows Debian users to view DVD movies (yet), then distributing this one is a good alternative, I'd say. You're clearly quite mad. Regardless of whether this script is trivial to implement, it's not something anyone should be encouraged to actually*use*. CSS is the *best* feature of the HTML4 standard. Why would anyone in their right mind wish to strip nearly all the logical structure markup out of a document? Uhh, it is to tweak the international copyright cartel, and the RIAA in particular. They have written cease and desist letters to anyone who has a file names deCSS on their system. This is an attempt to make such a filename so common that these letters are pointless, and possibly evidence of illegal activity. It strikes me that even if Debian (or a Developer) wished to encourage such a political statement, the vastly more efficient method would be to include it in some other package to which it might have relevance (for example, something that helped to generate CSS style information, or analyzed it, or whatever). Just drop it into /usr/share/doc as an example program (README.decss or somesuch), or as a helper app somewhere (though I'd be careful of /usr/bin, frankly). No new package, the (arguably useful) script goes into a place where it is most likely to be seen by those to whom it actually *is* useful, and everyone else doesn't have to try to figure out whether it's reasonable as a standalone package, or is just a 'joke', or what. (No, this isn't intended as how to get around doing an ITP, but rather, as an alternative which assumes you can convince someone that the script is, in fact, useful enough to put into an existing package to which it might be applicable.) -- Joel Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] pgpUFz9MND4T9.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
SL == Steve Langasek [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: SL If the intent is *only* as a political tool, I would agree SL that this decss program achieves its aims fairly effectively; SL but it is in no way a useful piece of *software*, which is SL what Emile seems to be arguing by disagreeing that it's SL trivial to implement. The question then is whether we want to SL include programs in Debian which are useful only as something SL other than software. So, I'm the upstream author of Pigdog DeCSS (http://www.pigdog.org/decss/), and I have received numerous emails from people who actually use it for stripping cascading stylesheet info from HTML pages. So, unfortunately, it's not 100% useless. ~ESP -- Evan Prodromou [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Bug#203498: ITP: decss -- utility for stripping CSS tags from an HTML page.
On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 04:41:37PM -0400, Evan Prodromou wrote: SL == Steve Langasek [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: SL If the intent is *only* as a political tool, I would agree SL that this decss program achieves its aims fairly effectively; SL but it is in no way a useful piece of *software*, which is SL what Emile seems to be arguing by disagreeing that it's SL trivial to implement. The question then is whether we want to SL include programs in Debian which are useful only as something SL other than software. So, I'm the upstream author of Pigdog DeCSS (http://www.pigdog.org/decss/), and I have received numerous emails from people who actually use it for stripping cascading stylesheet info from HTML pages. So, unfortunately, it's not 100% useless. For any stupid thing chosen at random, you'll find at least 5 people on the Internet who thinks it's a good idea. (Perhaps we could call this the simian input phenomenon.) As a result, the existence of users is not in itself evidence that something is useful. Since you're the upstream author, I'll ask: have you ever actually used this script yourself? If so... why? :) (And is the stripping of class/id attributes a bug?) -- Steve Langasek postmodern programmer pgpVszpx3ySYv.pgp Description: PGP signature
