Re: Can a leaf package require SSE2 on i386?

2014-09-17 Thread Ian Jackson
Jackson Doak writes (Re: Can a leaf package require SSE2 on i386?):
 The package infernal has also dropped i386 support for this reason. Using
 it's example, this can cause issues for downstreams with i386 arch:all
 builders. Just something to consider

I think dropping the package from i386 is worse than all the other
options, including the (very ugly indeed) situation where the package
coredumps in its testsuite on some buildds.

Any of the other options (debconf prompting in preinsts; proper error
messages on program startup; disabling testsuites if sse2 not found;
sse2-support feature `meta' package), singly or in combination, would
be quite fine IMO.

My advice would be to do what seems best for your package, and to
continue to share information and experiences with other packages with
similar problems.  We can leave coming up with a uniform approach for
another day.

Ian.


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Re: Can a leaf package require SSE2 on i386?

2014-09-17 Thread Sébastien Villemot
Le mercredi 17 septembre 2014 à 14:29 +0100, Ian Jackson a écrit :
 Jackson Doak writes (Re: Can a leaf package require SSE2 on i386?):
  The package infernal has also dropped i386 support for this reason. Using
  it's example, this can cause issues for downstreams with i386 arch:all
  builders. Just something to consider
 
 I think dropping the package from i386 is worse than all the other
 options, including the (very ugly indeed) situation where the package
 coredumps in its testsuite on some buildds.
 
 Any of the other options (debconf prompting in preinsts; proper error
 messages on program startup; disabling testsuites if sse2 not found;
 sse2-support feature `meta' package), singly or in combination, would
 be quite fine IMO.
 
 My advice would be to do what seems best for your package, and to
 continue to share information and experiences with other packages with
 similar problems.  We can leave coming up with a uniform approach for
 another day.

Given all the opinions expressed on the list (thanks!), I have decided
to keep the i386 package and make it display an explicit error message
at runtime if there is no SSE2 support in the processor.

Concerning the buildd, I now realize that the package really needs SSE2
support at build time. The reason is that, Julia being a JIT-compiler,
it is run at build time to create the binary image of its standard
library. I'll see if that creates problems on the i386 buildds.

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Re: Can a leaf package require SSE2 on i386?

2014-09-17 Thread Philipp Kern

On 2014-09-17 15:47, Sébastien Villemot wrote:

Concerning the buildd, I now realize that the package really needs SSE2
support at build time. The reason is that, Julia being a JIT-compiler,
it is run at build time to create the binary image of its standard
library. I'll see if that creates problems on the i386 buildds.


buildds need to be 64bit-compatible anyway for multilib reasons, it will 
not cause problems, as all 64bit chips have SSE2 support.


Kind regards
Philipp Kern


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Re: Subject=Re: Can a leaf package require SSE2 on i386?

2014-09-16 Thread Vincent Danjean
On 15/09/2014 22:28, Barak A. Pearlmutter wrote:
 The package ikarus, another programming language implementation,
 also requires SSE2 support.
 There is a check in the preinst script which aborts installation if
 sse2 is unavailable.
 
 case $1 in
 install|upgrade)
 if egrep -q '^flags[[:space:]]*:.*\bsse2\b' /proc/cpuinfo; then
 # echo CPU instruction set extension sse2 confirmed
 true
 else
 echo error: CPU flag sse2 not found, aborting installation
 exit 1
 fi
 ;;

If this hack is really here, a bug should be filled. It is really a
pain when something breaks when installing (or upgrading) a bunch of
packages. This check should be moved at runtime. At install time,
display a debconf notice if you really want to, but do not
abruptly stop the installation without a really good reason (even
when you try to remove the running kernel, perhaps leading to un
unbootable system, you have the choice to abort or not)

  Regards,
Vincent

 
 Cheers,
 
 --Barak.
 
 


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Re: Can a leaf package require SSE2 on i386?

2014-09-16 Thread YunQiang Su
On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 7:05 AM, Samuel Thibault sthiba...@debian.org wrote:
 Thomas Goirand, le Mon 15 Sep 2014 20:45:27 +0800, a écrit :
 On 09/15/2014 05:17 PM, Samuel Thibault wrote:
  Thomas Goirand, le Mon 15 Sep 2014 16:53:25 +0800, a écrit :
  I suppose (according to what's above) that using
  /usr/lib/sse4.2/x86_64-linux-gnu isn't supported (yet), right?
 
  I guess it shouldn't be hard to add the support, once the need is
  expressed :)
 
  Samuel

 Really? Ok... then *I NEED IT* ! :)

 As a bug report against libc6, I meant.

 Samuel


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I meet the similar problem: a package (shine) set itself as mips32r2.
I found it when I try dig out why it ftbfs on mips64el.

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Re: Can a leaf package require SSE2 on i386?

2014-09-15 Thread Helmut Grohne
On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 07:47:27AM +0100, Sébastien Villemot wrote:
 The bottom line is that julia needs SSE2 (and porting it to the x87 FPU
 requires changes that are beyond what I am willing/able to do, see [1]
 for more details). And the presence of SSE2 is not guaranteed on the
 i386 architecture.

A related topic was discussed during the bootstrap sprint[0], see
section 2 (small part of that long mail). There, the topic of having
optimized builds of packages was discussed. This technique can also be
used to only provide optimized builds without providing non-optimized
builds. It is not available in sid today. Please get in touch with Aron
Xu (CCed).

Helmut

[0] https://lists.debian.org/20140829095214.gv19...@stoneboat.aleph1.co.uk


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Re: Can a leaf package require SSE2 on i386?

2014-09-15 Thread Mathieu Malaterre
On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 8:47 AM, Sébastien Villemot
sebast...@debian.org wrote:
 Hi,

 As the maintainer of julia (a technical computing language built on top
 of LLVM), I am wondering whether I should continue supporting the i386
 architecture.

 The bottom line is that julia needs SSE2 (and porting it to the x87 FPU
 requires changes that are beyond what I am willing/able to do, see [1]
 for more details). And the presence of SSE2 is not guaranteed on the
 i386 architecture.

As per ld.so man page:

HARDWARE CAPABILITIES
   Libraries might be compiled using hardware-specific
instructions which do not exist on all CPU. Such libraries should be
installed in directories whose name defines
   the hardware capabilities such as /usr/lib/sse2/. The dynamic
linker checks these directories against the hardware of the machine
and selects the best suitable ver‐
   sion of a given library. Hardware capabilities directories
could be cascaded to combine CPU features. Hardware capabilities
depends on the CPU. The following  names
   are currently recognized:
[...]
  x86 (32-bit only)
  acpi, apic, clflush, cmov, cx8, dts, fxsr, ht, i386,
i486, i586, i686, mca, mmx, mtrr, pat, pbe, pge, pn, pse36, sep, ss,
sse, sse2, tm

HTH


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Re: Can a leaf package require SSE2 on i386?

2014-09-15 Thread Thomas Goirand
On 09/15/2014 04:04 PM, Mathieu Malaterre wrote:
 On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 8:47 AM, Sébastien Villemot
 sebast...@debian.org wrote:
 Hi,

 As the maintainer of julia (a technical computing language built on top
 of LLVM), I am wondering whether I should continue supporting the i386
 architecture.

 The bottom line is that julia needs SSE2 (and porting it to the x87 FPU
 requires changes that are beyond what I am willing/able to do, see [1]
 for more details). And the presence of SSE2 is not guaranteed on the
 i386 architecture.
 
 As per ld.so man page:
 
 HARDWARE CAPABILITIES
Libraries might be compiled using hardware-specific
 instructions which do not exist on all CPU. Such libraries should be
 installed in directories whose name defines
the hardware capabilities such as /usr/lib/sse2/. The dynamic
 linker checks these directories against the hardware of the machine
 and selects the best suitable ver‐
sion of a given library. Hardware capabilities directories
 could be cascaded to combine CPU features. Hardware capabilities
 depends on the CPU. The following  names
are currently recognized:
 [...]
   x86 (32-bit only)
   acpi, apic, clflush, cmov, cx8, dts, fxsr, ht, i386,
 i486, i586, i686, mca, mmx, mtrr, pat, pbe, pge, pn, pse36, sep, ss,
 sse, sse2, tm
 
 HTH

Thanks. That's nice, however, what if a library needs SSE4.2? Two of my
packages, eg libjerasure2 and libgf-complete1, would benefit from major
speed-up if there was SSE4 available. I have currently disabled all SSE
stuff, and would really like to provide an SSE4.2 version as well. I
suppose (according to what's above) that using
/usr/lib/sse4.2/x86_64-linux-gnu isn't supported (yet), right? (note: I
already asked upstream if it was possible to do runtime detection, and
the answer is currently no, unfortunately)

Cheers,

Thomas Goirand (zigo)


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Re: Can a leaf package require SSE2 on i386?

2014-09-15 Thread Samuel Thibault
Thomas Goirand, le Mon 15 Sep 2014 16:53:25 +0800, a écrit :
 I suppose (according to what's above) that using
 /usr/lib/sse4.2/x86_64-linux-gnu isn't supported (yet), right?

I guess it shouldn't be hard to add the support, once the need is
expressed :)

Samuel


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Re: Can a leaf package require SSE2 on i386?

2014-09-15 Thread Thomas Goirand
On 09/15/2014 05:17 PM, Samuel Thibault wrote:
 Thomas Goirand, le Mon 15 Sep 2014 16:53:25 +0800, a écrit :
 I suppose (according to what's above) that using
 /usr/lib/sse4.2/x86_64-linux-gnu isn't supported (yet), right?
 
 I guess it shouldn't be hard to add the support, once the need is
 expressed :)
 
 Samuel

Really? Ok... then *I NEED IT* ! :)

Thomas


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Re: Can a leaf package require SSE2 on i386?

2014-09-15 Thread Colin Watson
On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 04:40:14PM +0200, Adrien Clerc wrote:
 I'm in the category of people who installed their Debian 8 years ago, on
 an old AMD processor, only i686. My hardware was upgraded since, but the
 system remains. I've searched for cross-grade, but nothing serious comes
 out, except reinstall everything. If you have some clear documentation
 (at least some steps, I'm curious enough to read some apt manuals), I
 think you can go on dropping i386 architecture.

It can be done if you are competent and confident.  I successfully
crossgraded a production system from i386 to amd64 a while back, roughly
following the steps from this blog post:

  
http://blog.zugschlus.de/archives/972-How-to-amd64-an-i386-Debian-installation-with-multiarch.html

The system in question was originally installed in 1999 (with potato, I
think) and has been contiuously upgraded since then.

Caveats from my experience, though:

 * I was doing this on a server, not a desktop.

 * I put some effort into removing obsolete or unnecessary packages
   first and making sure that amd64 versions of all my non-Debian
   packages were available, in order to simplify things.  This procedure
   is much easier to execute on a system whose package database is nice
   and clean.

 * I started out by cloning the relevant parts of the system into a
   chroot, disabling daemon startup, and upgrading that, until I'd got
   far enough that I was comfortable I could finish the job.

 * I did this on a stable release.  Doing this in testing or unstable
   where it's more likely that the archive might introduce new versions
   of Multi-Arch: same packages part-way through the job would have been
   rather more exciting.

 * I know dpkg and apt very well, was a contributor to the multiarch
   design, and am comfortable recovering things by hand if necessary.

-- 
Colin Watson   [cjwat...@debian.org]


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Re: Can a leaf package require SSE2 on i386?

2014-09-15 Thread Håkon Alstadheim

On 15. sep. 2014 18:50, Colin Watson wrote:

On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 04:40:14PM +0200, Adrien Clerc wrote:

I'm in the category of people who installed their Debian 8 years ago, on
an old AMD processor, only i686. My hardware was upgraded since, but the
system remains. I've searched for cross-grade, but nothing serious comes
out, except reinstall everything. If you have some clear documentation
(at least some steps, I'm curious enough to read some apt manuals), I
think you can go on dropping i386 architecture.

It can be done if you are competent and confident.  I successfully
crossgraded a production system from i386 to amd64 a while back, roughly
following the steps from this blog post:

  


Lacking competence, dumb luck and stable power for ~48 hrs will also 
work :~ .


For production systems, cross-grade is still a bad idea, if only because 
you MUST plan for extended down-time, Cross-grade can be made to work on 
non-mission-critical boxes.


This message is proof of that. :-.  dpkg has cross-grade working. apt 
can be pressed into use by apt-get install --reinstall .


Of course, if you do not use the appropriate tools for the job, you MUST 
have sufficient sed, awk and perl -fu.


I had grep failing for a while,  which made some .debs uninstallable. A 
large cache of downloaded .debs helps.  I was also happy that I 
remembered seeing some android phones using 8.8.8.8 for recursive DNS, I 
never paid attention to what my ISP gives out. Then network at home 
(apart from the phones) was out for a couple of hours until I got bind 
working again.


My system got a good rinse from it. Now there are hardly any packages 
from squeeze left, and the last SuSE 6.4 binaries got the boot :) (Now 
THAT was a truly painful transition, back in the day).


This guide http://www.ewan.cc/?q=node/90 looks quite safe. If I had 
followed it I guess the pain would have been less  than my route. 
Minimum requirement for reducing hassle is to make sure your existing 
i386 packages are the same version as the amd64 you will be replacing 
them with. Barring that you need to forcibly purge the old and insert 
then new, while keeping a running system.


I also remembered about postgresql being fussy about bit-width too late, 
so I had to install a 32-bit chroot to get a fresh export from the 
entire install. Having a dump of the databases is well and good, but you 
ned the roles aswell. postgres-32-bit will NOT run on 64-bit 
libraries. RRD-databases are the same, so having a chroot ready for 
stuff like that is probably wise no matter how well you plan things.






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Subject=Re: Can a leaf package require SSE2 on i386?

2014-09-15 Thread Barak A. Pearlmutter
The package ikarus, another programming language implementation,
also requires SSE2 support.
There is a check in the preinst script which aborts installation if
sse2 is unavailable.

case $1 in
install|upgrade)
if egrep -q '^flags[[:space:]]*:.*\bsse2\b' /proc/cpuinfo; then
# echo CPU instruction set extension sse2 confirmed
true
else
echo error: CPU flag sse2 not found, aborting installation
exit 1
fi
;;

Cheers,

--Barak.


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Re: Can a leaf package require SSE2 on i386?

2014-09-15 Thread Samuel Thibault
Thomas Goirand, le Mon 15 Sep 2014 20:45:27 +0800, a écrit :
 On 09/15/2014 05:17 PM, Samuel Thibault wrote:
  Thomas Goirand, le Mon 15 Sep 2014 16:53:25 +0800, a écrit :
  I suppose (according to what's above) that using
  /usr/lib/sse4.2/x86_64-linux-gnu isn't supported (yet), right?
  
  I guess it shouldn't be hard to add the support, once the need is
  expressed :)
  
  Samuel
 
 Really? Ok... then *I NEED IT* ! :)

As a bug report against libc6, I meant.

Samuel


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Can a leaf package require SSE2 on i386?

2014-09-14 Thread Sébastien Villemot
Hi,

As the maintainer of julia (a technical computing language built on top
of LLVM), I am wondering whether I should continue supporting the i386
architecture.

The bottom line is that julia needs SSE2 (and porting it to the x87 FPU
requires changes that are beyond what I am willing/able to do, see [1]
for more details). And the presence of SSE2 is not guaranteed on the
i386 architecture.

So I have two options: either ship a i386 package that only works on
SSE2 processors (ideally giving a meaningful error message when run on
older CPUs); or drop support for i386, which is a disservice to our
users (the few who have a SSE2-capable but not x86-64-capable processor
will be left out; and those who are running the i386 arch on a
x86-64-capable processor will have to cross-grade to amd64 or at least
use multi-arch with a 64-bit kernel).

Also note that my understanding is that some i386 buildds are not
SSE2-capable (because they are qemu guests configured as such). So, if I
were to ship an i386 package requiring SSE2, the testsuite would fail on
those buildds (meaning that I would have to make the testsuite non
fatal, or ask for blacklisting of those buildd).

What's your opinion on this issue?

[1] https://github.com/JuliaLang/julia/issues/7185

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Re: Can a leaf package require SSE2 on i386?

2014-09-14 Thread Michael Gilbert
On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 2:47 AM, Sébastien Villemot  wrote:
 The bottom line is that julia needs SSE2 (and porting it to the x87 FPU
 requires changes that are beyond what I am willing/able to do, see [1]
 for more details). And the presence of SSE2 is not guaranteed on the
 i386 architecture.

chromium upstream decided to go SSE2-only, but I've reverted that in
the Debian packages for now.  I would prefer to not diverge, and would
do so if there were a convenient way to detect and prompt users about
the problem (rather than segfault).

Best wishes,
Mike


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Re: Can a leaf package require SSE2 on i386?

2014-09-14 Thread Balint Reczey
Hi,
On Sep 14, 2014 9:16 AM, Michael Gilbert mgilb...@debian.org wrote:

 On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 2:47 AM, Sébastien Villemot  wrote: 
  The bottom line is that julia needs SSE2 (and porting it to the x87 FPU 
  requires changes that are beyond what I am willing/able to do, see [1] 
  for more details). And the presence of SSE2 is not guaranteed on the 
  i386 architecture. 

 chromium upstream decided to go SSE2-only, but I've reverted that in 
 the Debian packages for now.  I would prefer to not diverge, and would 
 do so if there were a convenient way to detect and prompt users about 
 the problem (rather than segfault). 
How about creating a package named like sse2-support for i386 which fails to 
install (unless it is forced) on not SSE2-capable hardware emitting a proper 
error message?
Packages requiring SSE2 could (build-) depend on it.

BTW steam already requires SSE2.

Cheers,
Balint

Re: Can a leaf package require SSE2 on i386?

2014-09-14 Thread Jackson Doak
The package infernal has also dropped i386 support for this reason. Using
it's example, this can cause issues for downstreams with i386 arch:all
builders. Just something to consider

On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 6:07 PM, Balint Reczey rbal...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi,
 On Sep 14, 2014 9:16 AM, Michael Gilbert mgilb...@debian.org wrote:
 
  On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 2:47 AM, Sébastien Villemot  wrote:
   The bottom line is that julia needs SSE2 (and porting it to the x87 FPU
   requires changes that are beyond what I am willing/able to do, see [1]
   for more details). And the presence of SSE2 is not guaranteed on the
   i386 architecture.
 
  chromium upstream decided to go SSE2-only, but I've reverted that in
  the Debian packages for now.  I would prefer to not diverge, and would
  do so if there were a convenient way to detect and prompt users about
  the problem (rather than segfault).
 How about creating a package named like sse2-support for i386 which fails
 to install (unless it is forced) on not SSE2-capable hardware emitting a
 proper error message?
 Packages requiring SSE2 could (build-) depend on it.

 BTW steam already requires SSE2.

 Cheers,
 Balint


Re: Can a leaf package require SSE2 on i386?

2014-09-14 Thread Bastien ROUCARIES
On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 8:47 AM, Sébastien Villemot
sebast...@debian.org wrote:
 Hi,

 As the maintainer of julia (a technical computing language built on top
 of LLVM), I am wondering whether I should continue supporting the i386
 architecture.

 The bottom line is that julia needs SSE2 (and porting it to the x87 FPU
 requires changes that are beyond what I am willing/able to do, see [1]
 for more details). And the presence of SSE2 is not guaranteed on the
 i386 architecture.

 So I have two options: either ship a i386 package that only works on
 SSE2 processors (ideally giving a meaningful error message when run on
 older CPUs); or drop support for i386, which is a disservice to our
 users (the few who have a SSE2-capable but not x86-64-capable processor
 will be left out; and those who are running the i386 arch on a
 x86-64-capable processor will have to cross-grade to amd64 or at least
 use multi-arch with a 64-bit kernel).

 Also note that my understanding is that some i386 buildds are not
 SSE2-capable (because they are qemu guests configured as such). So, if I
 were to ship an i386 package requiring SSE2, the testsuite would fail on
 those buildds (meaning that I would have to make the testsuite non
 fatal, or ask for blacklisting of those buildd).

 What's your opinion on this issue?

Add sse/sse2 support to libmmx ?

https://www-sop.inria.fr/members/Sylvain.Pion/progs/mmx-emu/

 [1] https://github.com/JuliaLang/julia/issues/7185

 --
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 : :' :Debian Developer
 `. `' http://www.dynare.org/sebastien
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Re: Can a leaf package require SSE2 on i386?

2014-09-14 Thread Adrien Clerc
Le 14/09/2014 08:47, Sébastien Villemot a écrit :
 So I have two options: either ship a i386 package that only works on
 SSE2 processors (ideally giving a meaningful error message when run on
 older CPUs); or drop support for i386, which is a disservice to our
 users (the few who have a SSE2-capable but not x86-64-capable processor
 will be left out; and those who are running the i386 arch on a
 x86-64-capable processor will have to cross-grade to amd64 or at least
 use multi-arch with a 64-bit kernel).

I'm in the category of people who installed their Debian 8 years ago, on
an old AMD processor, only i686. My hardware was upgraded since, but the
system remains. I've searched for cross-grade, but nothing serious comes
out, except reinstall everything. If you have some clear documentation
(at least some steps, I'm curious enough to read some apt manuals), I
think you can go on dropping i386 architecture.
Otherwise, even if I'm not a julia user, I'll be really sad to see a
package lost only because SSE2 is needed.

Adrien


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Re: Can a leaf package require SSE2 on i386?

2014-09-14 Thread Josselin Mouette
Le dimanche 14 septembre 2014 à 07:47 +0100, Sébastien Villemot a
écrit :
 So I have two options: either ship a i386 package that only works on
 SSE2 processors (ideally giving a meaningful error message when run on
 older CPUs); or drop support for i386, which is a disservice to our
 users

The silliness of the second option should be enough to make the choice.
Mentioning in the description, and in an error message at launch time,
that the package doesn’t work without SSE2, should be more than enough.

 Also note that my understanding is that some i386 buildds are not
 SSE2-capable (because they are qemu guests configured as such). So, if I
 were to ship an i386 package requiring SSE2, the testsuite would fail on
 those buildds (meaning that I would have to make the testsuite non
 fatal, or ask for blacklisting of those buildd).

I have doubts about the existence of such qemu guests that wouldn’t be
KVM-enabled.

In any case, you have the option to disable the testsuite depending on
the contents of /proc/cpuinfo.

Cheers,
-- 
 .''`.  Josselin Mouette
: :' :
`. `'
  `-


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