Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[Dr. Bas Wijnen]

On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 07:18:57PM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 05:57:21PM +, Dr. Bas Wijnen wrote:
> > So we need to decide what we want.  I think there probably is consensus 
> > about:
> > 
> > - We want people with non-free hardware to install Debian if they want to.
> > - We want people with non-free firmware installed to get updates for it.
> > 
> > I'm not entirely sure, but think there is also consensus that:
> > 
> > - We want to recommend people to use as little non-free software as 
> > reasonably
> >   possible.
> > 
> > I am planning to propose a GR that will clarify our position about this, and
> > that should result in enabling contrib and non-free in the default installer
> > image until non-free-firmware is somehow selectable for installation without
> > also enabling other non-free software.
> 
> I got the impression that the idea of having two installers for download,
> side to side, received least hate of what was proposed.

It doesn't get hate from me, but I do think it's suboptimal.  As I explain
below, I think we should recommend the image including non-free firmware to
pretty much everyone.  This means that if we design the website properly, the
image without the firmware is very hard to find.

> Having no purely free installer, or having it play second fiddle to the
> non-free one, would sacrifice too much of our principles in my opinion.

Therefore it should indeed play second fiddle, if it should play at all.  If
the hardware supports firmware updates and those are available in non-free form
only, I think it would be irresponsible of us to withhold them from our users.
So that means that if such hardware is present, we need to enable updates for
non-free firmware.  With the current repository layout, that means enabling all
of non-free.

Especially for new users, having two options where one has limitations (using
it may leave you with an insecure system, depending on your hardware) and the
other one doesn't (they've always used non-free software, continuing to do so
doesn't feel like a problem for them) will lead to many of them choosing the
installer which includes the non-free firmware.  So I don't think it's really
possible to avoid the free installer being almost unused.

Personally I think it doesn't really add any value to have an installer without
the non-free firmware.  As long as the installer doesn't install it on the
system unless it is needed, that is.  The value of having an installer image
that doesn't include the firmware is much lower than the value of users being
able to install a good system.  This is similar to how RMS originally used
non-free Unix systems to work on GNU.  As long as the non-free parts are
required, they can (and should) be used.

I would very much like to not enable all of non-free, but the proper solution
for that is splitting off the firmware parts so they can be selectively enabled
(or some other way to selectively enable part of an apt source) and that
requires work.  I don't have the time to do this work, so while I mention that
it should be done, I'm not proposing that it will be done.  That's not the sort
of thing that a GR or mailing list discussion can do.

However, I believe that the problem of our users being unable to install secure
systems, or being unable to install at all, is serious and deserves to be
solved.  Even if that means enabling all of non-free for every new install.

> Yet having such a "tainted" installer to its right/bottom would also
> satisfy the need of users with bad hardware.

The main issue is that the free image somehow needs to detect that non-free
updates are required to keep the machine secure, and then (request to) enable
non-free if they are.  My guess is that this can easily be done.  Enabling the
non-free repository is technically easy, but I expect disagreement over whether
this should be allowed.

> Would this be acceptable to you without employing all the hassle of a GR?

The reason I think a GR is useful is that this discussion comes up again and
again.  I'd prefer if we had consensus about it, and this may be the case.
However, nobody seems to know, so a GR would clearly record our opinion.  That
seems to be a good thing.

Just to clarify: my purpose of a GR isn't to "win" anything.  It's to clarify
what the project wants, so that people can work on this without too many
protests, and installing Debian can be a better experience for our users.

Thanks,
Bas


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Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[Andrey Rahmatullin]

On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 05:57:21PM +, Dr. Bas Wijnen wrote:
> > > they will most likely simply not understand the point, and what makes
> > > free hardware so much better. 
> > 
> > > massively encourage users to use non-free hardware
> > 
> > > link to a page suggesting free hardware over similar non-free hardware
> > 
> > There is no such thing. There is only non-free hardware without updates
> > for its software.
> 
> I'm not sure what you're trying to say.  
I'm trying to say that there is nothing to promote, and anyone who wants
to promote hardware that doesn't require loading non-free firmware must
understand that it's not "hardware that doesn't require non-free firmware
at all" and thus is not "free hardware".

> Toni's suggestion seems to be to tell those people that Debian can indeed
> install on their hardware, while educating them about the problems of it.
Yes, and I point at the problems in the "educating" part. If we want to
educate other people we should first educate ourselves.

-- 
WBR, wRAR


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Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[Adam Borowski]

On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 05:57:21PM +, Dr. Bas Wijnen wrote:
> So we need to decide what we want.  I think there probably is consensus about:
> 
> - We want people with non-free hardware to install Debian if they want to.
> - We want people with non-free firmware installed to get updates for it.
> 
> I'm not entirely sure, but think there is also consensus that:
> 
> - We want to recommend people to use as little non-free software as reasonably
>   possible.
> 
> I am planning to propose a GR that will clarify our position about this, and
> that should result in enabling contrib and non-free in the default installer
> image until non-free-firmware is somehow selectable for installation without
> also enabling other non-free software.

I got the impression that the idea of having two installers for download,
side to side, received least hate of what was proposed.

Having no purely free installer, or having it play second fiddle to the
non-free one, would sacrifice too much of our principles in my opinion.
Yet having such a "tainted" installer to its right/bottom would also
satisfy the need of users with bad hardware.

Would this be acceptable to you without employing all the hassle of a GR?


Meow!
-- 
// If you believe in so-called "intellectual property", please immediately
// cease using counterfeit alphabets.  Instead, contact the nearest temple
// of Amon, whose priests will provide you with scribal services for all
// your writing needs, for Reasonable And Non-Discriminatory prices.

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[Dr. Bas Wijnen]

On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 10:13:52AM +0500, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 11:00:38PM +0100, Toni Mueller wrote:
> > they will most likely simply not understand the point, and what makes
> > free hardware so much better. 
> 
> > massively encourage users to use non-free hardware
> 
> > link to a page suggesting free hardware over similar non-free hardware
> 
> There is no such thing. There is only non-free hardware without updates
> for its software.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say.  Here are the facts:

- There are people who have non-free hardware that they would like to run
  Debian on.
- The current default installer image requires non-free firmware to install on
  those systems.
- The non-default images which include the firmware are hard to find.
- The method that the default image suggests (downloading the non-free firmware
  tarball and installing it in the installation system) is not something that
  all users should be expected to be able to do.

Toni's suggestion seems to be to tell those people that Debian can indeed
install on their hardware, while educating them about the problems of it.  The
result will be that more people run Debian, but as you seem to say the
education will not always work so it will also mean that either people are left
with hardware without updates, or they are pushed to using non-free software.
Neither of those options is nice.

So we need to decide what we want.  I think there probably is consensus about:

- We want people with non-free hardware to install Debian if they want to.
- We want people with non-free firmware installed to get updates for it.

I'm not entirely sure, but think there is also consensus that:

- We want to recommend people to use as little non-free software as reasonably
  possible.

I am planning to propose a GR that will clarify our position about this, and
that should result in enabling contrib and non-free in the default installer
image until non-free-firmware is somehow selectable for installation without
also enabling other non-free software.

Any comments are welcome.  I'll post to -vote when I have a proposed text.

Thanks,
Bas


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Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[Andrey Rahmatullin]

On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 04:56:25PM +0100, Toni Mueller wrote:
> > My point is you shouldn't educate with lies and half-truths.
> Good point. Then you get to do it the correct way. Deal?
That's not how these things work though.

-- 
WBR, wRAR


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Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[Toni Mueller]

On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 04:22:23PM +0500, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote:
> My point is you shouldn't educate with lies and half-truths.

Good point. Then you get to do it the correct way. Deal?


Cheers,
--Toni++

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[Andrey Rahmatullin]

On Fri, Dec 29, 2017 at 12:16:01PM +0100, Toni Mueller wrote:
> > > link to a page suggesting free hardware over similar non-free hardware
> > 
> > There is no such thing. There is only non-free hardware without updates
> > for its software.
> 
> "Whatever". My main point is imho to both make it easier for people to
> run Debian on their computers and educate them at the same time.
My point is you shouldn't educate with lies and half-truths.

-- 
WBR, wRAR


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Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[Toni Mueller]

On Thu, Dec 28, 2017 at 10:13:52AM +0500, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 11:00:38PM +0100, Toni Mueller wrote:
> > link to a page suggesting free hardware over similar non-free hardware
> 
> There is no such thing. There is only non-free hardware without updates
> for its software.

"Whatever". My main point is imho to both make it easier for people to
run Debian on their computers and educate them at the same time. I hope
that my approach would achieve that goal, but after spending a lot of
time with this thread, other approaches like including everything in an
ISO and then installing only the required bits also sound promising.


Cheers,
--Toni++

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Sat, Dec 09, 2017 at 10:26:03AM +0100, Marc Haber wrote:

I fscking do know what the docs say. They're ambiguous and it didn't
work in either interpretation way I could come up with when I was last
forced to install Debian on a system in a place where only wireless
LAN was available, like a month ago.

As a milion times before, I ended up changing to a shell in the
installer and manually putting the firmware files into the installer
system, which then worked.

I am a DD. I can do that. Any other user would probably have Ubuntu or
Fedora on the box in quesiton now.


I'm not even sure that pabs is arguing against your point; just
fact-dumping in the thread.

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[Andrey Rahmatullin]

On Wed, Dec 27, 2017 at 11:00:38PM +0100, Toni Mueller wrote:
> they will most likely simply not understand the point, and what makes
> free hardware so much better. 

> massively encourage users to use non-free hardware

> link to a page suggesting free hardware over similar non-free hardware

There is no such thing. There is only non-free hardware without updates
for its software.

-- 
WBR, wRAR


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Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[Toni Mueller]

Hi,

On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 02:39:12PM +0100, W. Martin Borgert wrote:
> Every time I need a Debian ISO, it takes me minutes to find it.
> I didn't even know, that there were an ISO with non-free firmware.
> 
> There should be a beautiful ISO download page, e.g.
> https://www.debian.org/download[s]/
> with all architectures and supported releases, similar to
> https://www.ubuntu.com/download
> or
> https://linuxmint.com/download.php

I wasn't really aware of the distinction and just noticed that I so far
got by with the free ISOs. But I also found that most newbies who are
being hooked on Mint or Ubuntu, are very unlikely to change to Debian,
but instead tend to blame any problems on Linux as a whole.

Arguing about freeness is probably not helpful for these people because
they will most likely simply not understand the point, and what makes
free hardware so much better. Therefore, in my opinion, using a more
end user oriented language is advised.

I would therefore like to suggest some change to the first page
(get.debian.org) along these lines. Despite the wording, though, it can
be viewed to massively encourage users to use non-free hardware, because
it makes it much easier accessible:



Debian CDs
==

Standard Images/Free Software Images


If you want to install a VM or have fairly free/simple/old hardware
(better wording required, preferably with a link enumerating compatible
hardware), you are encouraged to use these images: Link to our free
ISOs.


Special Hardware/Non-Free Software Images
-

We do not advocate using non-free hardware, but would still like to
enable you to use Debian.

If your hardware includes any of these components: (link to a page with
hardware requiring non-free firmware), you may need to use these images
(link to the ISOs including non-free software), but we encourage you to
look at (link to Free Software statements/explanations) and maybe look
into suggested hardware choices (link to a page suggesting free
hardware over similar non-free hardware).




Cheers,
--Toni++

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Marc Haber]

On Mon, 4 Dec 2017 16:38:06 -0600, Michael Lustfield
 wrote:
>As long as I avoid Nvidia, I usually have excellent luck finding systems
>(specifically laptops) that work well without anything from non-free.

Which current and available Wifi adapter works without non-free
firmware?

Greetings
Marc
-- 
-- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -
Marc Haber |   " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany  | Beginning of Wisdom " | http://www.zugschlus.de/
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 72739834

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Marc Haber]

On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 09:45:33 +0800, Yao Wei  wrote:
>My 2 cent is, we can distribute ISOs without non-free things, but we
>need an add-on pack to put into the USB flash drive for non-free network
>drivers, and we categorize the add-on not part of Debian.  We also have
>to improve the website to point out, that "In most of the case non-free
>drivers are required for your computer hardware to work", and point the
>user to the add-on.

And we also need the mechanism to actually work.
-- 
-- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -
Marc Haber |   " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany  | Beginning of Wisdom " | http://www.zugschlus.de/
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 72739834

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[Marc Haber]

On Tue, 5 Dec 2017 12:34:52 +0800, Paul Wise  wrote:
>The docs say to dump firmware files or packages on a USB stick:
>
>https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch06s04.html.en

I fscking do know what the docs say. They're ambiguous and it didn't
work in either interpretation way I could come up with when I was last
forced to install Debian on a system in a place where only wireless
LAN was available, like a month ago.

As a milion times before, I ended up changing to a shell in the
installer and manually putting the firmware files into the installer
system, which then worked.

I am a DD. I can do that. Any other user would probably have Ubuntu or
Fedora on the box in quesiton now.

Greetings
Marc
-- 
-- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -
Marc Haber |   " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany  | Beginning of Wisdom " | http://www.zugschlus.de/
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 72739834

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Paul Wise]

On Thu, Dec 7, 2017 at 11:39 AM, Adam Borowski wrote:

> It might be less disruptive to add a new field like Subsection; that'd avoid
> the need to change any of archive tools -- including ones not used on the
> official archive, like reprepro.
...
> Because Section: implies an unique section, while we want the same package
> to be present in both non-free and non-free/firmware, I'd suggest
> Subsection: or abusing debtags instead.

We are talking about sub-*components* here not sub-*sections*.
Sections are only simple tags, they don't affect the archive structure
at all, except through the component, because the current Section
field conflates the component (main/contrib/non-free) and the section
(sound/kernel/etc).

I would either continue the conflation and go with:

Section: component/subcomponent/section
Section: non-free/firmware/sound

Or get rid of the conflation:

Section: section
Component: component/subcomponent

Section: sound
Component: non-free/firmware

Or for even more separation:

Component: component
Subcomponent: subcomponent
Section: section

Component: non-free
Subcomponent: firmware
Section: sound

> Turns out you don't need to mess with dak; it's an one-liner to produce such
> a Packages file
...
> Obviously encapsulating such a feature as an option of dak would be
> reasonable, but it's in no way dak exclusive.

Sure, but if we want them on ftp.debian.org (the main place we want to
use them) we need to modify or configure dak to generate them :)

> Apt (and aptitude) should work flawlessly: there's security.debian.org
> jessie/updates, and we had non-free/non-us in the past.

FYI ftpmasters vetoed the proposal of using the syntax
non-free/firmware in the component. They also want to kill
jessie/updates and rename it to jessie-security.

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Adam Borowski]

On Wed, Dec 06, 2017 at 10:05:51AM +0800, Paul Wise wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 1:46 AM, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote:
> 
> > * splitting non-free in subsets;
> > * adding a non-free-firmware area;
> 
> I think we don't want either of these, instead we should *add*
> additional Packages files for each of the classes of non-free things
> that people want to be able to isolate from the rest of non-free,
> "firmware" being the first one and probably the only one.
> 
> After talking with the apt maintainers on IRC and some
> experimentation, I think this is doable and it definitely does not
> require the GR process.
> 
> The parts that need to be patched seem to be:
> 
> Each firmware package to use 3-part Section fields like
> non-free/firmware/sound. Initially dak could override all of the
> packages we want in that subcomponent.

It might be less disruptive to add a new field like Subsection; that'd avoid
the need to change any of archive tools -- including ones not used on the
official archive, like reprepro.

> dak for dealing with 3-part Section fields, adding the new
> non-free/firmware component, generating the new Packages files and
> adding them to Release files.

Turns out you don't need to mess with dak; it's an one-liner to produce such
a Packages file:

grep-dctrl -FDescription firmware 
/var/lib/apt/lists/apt.angband.pl:3142_debian_dists_unstable_non-free_binary-amd64_Packages

(Obviously, this should be ｢-FSubsection firmware｣ or [-FTag use::firmware｣
or whatever way you want to mark subsets.)

Then you generate Release and sign it.

Obviously encapsulating such a feature as an option of dak would be
reasonable, but it's in no way dak exclusive.

> d-i for adding the non-free/firmware component instead of non-free.
> 
> Possibly aptitude/packages.d.o/lintian for dealing with 3-part Section fields.

Apt (and aptitude) should work flawlessly: there's security.debian.org
jessie/updates, and we had non-free/non-us in the past.

> Policy for describing 3-part Section fields and listing allowed ones.
> 
> Alternatively, we could end the conflation between the Section and
> Components but that would require more changes.

Because Section: implies an unique section, while we want the same package
to be present in both non-free and non-free/firmware, I'd suggest
Subsection: or abusing debtags instead.


Meow!
-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 14:13 < icenowy[m]> are they hot enough? ;-)
⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ 14:17 < icenowy[m]> I think now in Europe it should be winter? Let
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ the BPi warm you ;-)
⠈⠳⣄ 14:17 <@KotCzarny> yeah, i have a pc to warm me ;)

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Wouter Verhelst]

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 04:29:43PM +0200, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
> Myself, I would prefer us to keep both the free-software-only ISO and
> the non-free ISO with firmware and other things needed to get typical
> modern hardware running, and improve the discoverability of the
> latter. I think we can do that without having to have a GR to change
> the Social Contract or the DFSG.

Something like https://lists.debian.org/debian-www/2017/12/msg00027.html ?

-- 
Could you people please use IRC like normal people?!?

  -- Amaya Rodrigo Sastre, trying to quiet down the buzz in the DebConf 2008
 Hacklab

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Russ Allbery]

Adam Borowski  writes:

> No distruption for existing systems, satisfies those concerned about
> accidentally installing "real" software (as much as the notion of
> executable code running on another processor in your machine, or even
> deeper inside the same processor, being less of software, is ridiculous
> to me).

It's not necessarily that it's less of software, but that the licensing
issues are very unlikely to be blockers for how the software is used
(hopefully we wouldn't even package firmware that put restrictions on how
people use their computer, and that's not at all a standard thing to see
in such licenses).  That makes some of the practical issues of non-free
software less likely to apply, such as whether it would compromise the
free software status of some related project when looking for solutions to
a particular problem.

Also, while this is certainly debatable, I do feel like firmware is
farther down the "supply chain" of computing and the free software
campaign, on a practical level, has been pushing software freedom slowly
farther and farther down the supply chain.  At the start of free software,
the only option was around end-user-installed supplemental software.  Then
we got free operating systems, but things like BIOS were uniformly
non-free.  Now we're starting to take a serious look at free firmware, but
there's almost nothing in the way of free processor microcode
(particularly for mass-market general-purpose non-embedded computing).

We'd like to get all the way to free software for everything, but we've
always had to make compromises around the pieces for which there isn't
(yet) a free software alternative, until we've managed to build those
alternatives.  Software tightly linked to hardware is inherently harder
because it's more difficult, as a community, to make our own hardware than
it is to make our own "pure" software.  It makes sense to me that it's
taking longer and we have to make practical compromises for longer than we
do for non-hardware-linked software.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Adam Borowski]

On Wed, Dec 06, 2017 at 10:05:51AM +0800, Paul Wise wrote:
> On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 1:46 AM, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote:
> 
> > * splitting non-free in subsets;
> > * adding a non-free-firmware area;
> 
> I think we don't want either of these, instead we should *add*
> additional Packages files for each of the classes of non-free things
> that people want to be able to isolate from the rest of non-free,
> "firmware" being the first one and probably the only one.
> 
> After talking with the apt maintainers on IRC and some
> experimentation, I think this is doable and it definitely does not
> require the GR process.

Ie, we'd have a Packages file for non-free and another for
non-free/kitten-images with the very same debs?

There's no file duplication as these days we have a shared pool/, and
if someone enables both, it's no different from having both unstable and
buster (which share 99% files), handled well by user tools.

No distruption for existing systems, satisfies those concerned about
accidentally installing "real" software (as much as the notion of executable
code running on another processor in your machine, or even deeper inside the
same processor, being less of software, is ridiculous to me).

Me likes.


Meow!
-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 14:13 < icenowy[m]> are they hot enough? ;-)
⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ 14:17 < icenowy[m]> I think now in Europe it should be winter? Let
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ the BPi warm you ;-)
⠈⠳⣄ 14:17 <@KotCzarny> yeah, i have a pc to warm me ;)

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Paul Wise]

On Wed, Dec 6, 2017 at 1:46 AM, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote:

> * splitting non-free in subsets;
> * adding a non-free-firmware area;

I think we don't want either of these, instead we should *add*
additional Packages files for each of the classes of non-free things
that people want to be able to isolate from the rest of non-free,
"firmware" being the first one and probably the only one.

After talking with the apt maintainers on IRC and some
experimentation, I think this is doable and it definitely does not
require the GR process.

The parts that need to be patched seem to be:

Each firmware package to use 3-part Section fields like
non-free/firmware/sound. Initially dak could override all of the
packages we want in that subcomponent.

dak for dealing with 3-part Section fields, adding the new
non-free/firmware component, generating the new Packages files and
adding them to Release files.

d-i for adding the non-free/firmware component instead of non-free.

Possibly aptitude/packages.d.o/lintian for dealing with 3-part Section fields.

Policy for describing 3-part Section fields and listing allowed ones.

Alternatively, we could end the conflation between the Section and
Components but that would require more changes.

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Didier 'OdyX' Raboud]

Le lundi, 4 décembre 2017, 23.18:21 h CET Philipp Kern a écrit :
> On 04.12.2017 19:03, Holger Levsen wrote:
> > On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 05:36:30PM +, Ian Jackson wrote:
> >> Lars Wirzenius writes:
> >>> Myself, I would prefer us to keep both the free-software-only ISO and
> >>> the non-free ISO with firmware and other things needed to get typical
> >>> modern hardware running, and improve the discoverability of the
> >>> latter. I think we can do that without having to have a GR to change
> >>> the Social Contract or the DFSG.
> >> 
> >> Yes.
> > 
> > yes, I also agree this would work and be better than the status-quo.
> > however I'm inclined to believe doing this and adding a fourth repo,
> > non-free-firmware (additionally to main, contrib and non-free) would
> > be even better and also not need a GR.
> 
> I like that this *finally* gets some traction. I have floated a GR
> before but people seem to be reluctant to have yet another vote.

It's a healthy discussion to be had, but we really should stop being scared by 
GRs. We had 3 in 2016 without much problems afterall.

Instead of assuming a consensus from a debian-devel discussion, I certainly 
see value in both the wordsmithing happening during the discussion, and in the 
relative weighing of various slightly nuanced versions that comes as output 
from the vote.

There's also value for the Debian project to be explicit when and if diverging 
from a longstanding tradition. We're discussing various different options 
here, and they don't all have the same symbolic weight:
* making the current "embeds distributable non-free firmware" ISO image more 
visible;
* splitting non-free in subsets;
* adding a non-free-firmware area;
* making the above ISO image the default image;
* etc.

To be honest, I don't think we are currently at a point in the discussion 
where we all feel the same consensus given the above (non-finite) set of 
options. Having an explicit vote will help better understanding where we stand 
as a project; also how we prioritise these.

tl:dr; don't be afraid of a GR, just do it calmly :-)

Cheers,
OdyX

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Jonas Meurer]

Am 05.12.2017 um 06:02 schrieb Paul Wise:
> On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 6:18 AM, Philipp Kern wrote:
>> On 04.12.2017 19:03, Holger Levsen wrote:
>>> yes, I also agree this would work and be better than the status-quo.
>>> however I'm inclined to believe doing this and adding a fourth repo,
>>> non-free-firmware (additionally to main, contrib and non-free) would
>>> be even better and also not need a GR.
> 
> I agree that having subsets of non-free would be useful for folks who
> don't need all of it, but they should be subset components like
> non-free/firmware rather than top-level components like
> non-free-firmware.

+1

>> I like that this *finally* gets some traction. I have floated a GR
>> before but people seem to be reluctant to have yet another vote.
> 
> I don't think we need a GR to do sub-setting of archive components,
> just dak coders.

+1

>> I guess the question from my side is if the list of archive components
>> in §5 of the Social Contract is supposed to be exhaustive or not. I.e.
>> if we need to change that or not. If we don't need to: yay. (Maybe
>> because we editorially consider firmware not to be software or something.)
> 
> If we go with the subset approach I suggest the firmware packages
> would still be in the non-free/contrib "areas" and still be in the
> pool/non-free directory on our mirrors but would also be mentioned in
> the non-free/firmware/*/Packages files, which would be the firmware
> subset of the non-free component.

+1

Cheers
 jonas



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Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Paul Wise]

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 6:18 AM, Philipp Kern wrote:
> On 04.12.2017 19:03, Holger Levsen wrote:
>> yes, I also agree this would work and be better than the status-quo.
>> however I'm inclined to believe doing this and adding a fourth repo,
>> non-free-firmware (additionally to main, contrib and non-free) would
>> be even better and also not need a GR.

I agree that having subsets of non-free would be useful for folks who
don't need all of it, but they should be subset components like
non-free/firmware rather than top-level components like
non-free-firmware.

> I like that this *finally* gets some traction. I have floated a GR
> before but people seem to be reluctant to have yet another vote.

I don't think we need a GR to do sub-setting of archive components,
just dak coders.

> I guess the question from my side is if the list of archive components
> in §5 of the Social Contract is supposed to be exhaustive or not. I.e.
> if we need to change that or not. If we don't need to: yay. (Maybe
> because we editorially consider firmware not to be software or something.)

If we go with the subset approach I suggest the firmware packages
would still be in the non-free/contrib "areas" and still be in the
pool/non-free directory on our mirrors but would also be mentioned in
the non-free/firmware/*/Packages files, which would be the firmware
subset of the non-free component.

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[Paul Wise]

On Tue, Dec 5, 2017 at 12:34 AM, Jonathan Dowland wrote:

> Yes, I've never managed to get d-i to find firmware I've put on a USB
> myself, and always resorted to this approach. I never got around to
> reading the source to figure out where it expects to look (nor to
> improve the docs etc.)

The docs say to dump firmware files or packages on a USB stick:

https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch06s04.html.en

To prepare a USB stick (or other medium like a hard drive partition,
or floppy disk), the firmware files or packages must be placed in
either the root directory or a directory named /firmware of the file
system on the medium. The recommended file system to use is FAT as
that is most certain to be supported during the early stages of the
installation.

The wiki documentation for this doesn't mention the root directory, so
perhaps this has been improved in recent releases:

https://wiki.debian.org/Firmware#Firmware_during_the_installation

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Andrey Rahmatullin]

On Tue, Dec 05, 2017 at 09:45:33AM +0800, Yao Wei wrote:
> About alternatives, I found it difficult to buy a brand-new laptop with
> 802.11ac wifi chip which is available on the market.  All of them
> requires firmware or even non-free Linux modules.  
All wifi chips use firmware so this is a bad argument.

> My 2 cent is, we can distribute ISOs without non-free things, but we
> need an add-on pack to put into the USB flash drive for non-free network
> drivers
Please no.

-- 
WBR, wRAR


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Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Marco d'Itri]

On Dec 04, Michael Lustfield  wrote:

> As long as I avoid Nvidia, I usually have excellent luck finding systems
> (specifically laptops) that work well without anything from non-free. With
> servers, I usually need something for the networking drivers but nothing else.
Looks like you are confused. Your computers are still full of 
proprietary software: you just lack a way to update it.

-- 
ciao,
Marco


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Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Yao Wei]

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 06:49:05PM +, Holger Levsen wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 11:41:34PM +0500, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote:
> > There are alternatives?
> 
> always.
> 
> 
> -- 
> cheers,
>   Holger

About alternatives, I found it difficult to buy a brand-new laptop with
802.11ac wifi chip which is available on the market.  All of them
requires firmware or even non-free Linux modules.  I asked MediaTeK
people with such issue when I had a job interview, and they replied that
they want to respect their shareholders. *sighs*

Everyone argues that firmware should be non-free and should be not
included in the ISO, but if the firmware is not able to sideload, it
means the firmware is not changable, and in most of the case we don't
have source code for it.  I believe it is the worse scenario than having
a non-free blob, which we can still have security updates.

My 2 cent is, we can distribute ISOs without non-free things, but we
need an add-on pack to put into the USB flash drive for non-free network
drivers, and we categorize the add-on not part of Debian.  We also have
to improve the website to point out, that "In most of the case non-free
drivers are required for your computer hardware to work", and point the
user to the add-on.

I hope my idea can balance our priorities of both the free software and
the users, and not give up one of them to achieve the other.

Yao Wei


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Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Russell Stuart]

On Mon, 2017-12-04 at 21:01 +, Ben Hutchings wrote:
> I end up needing non-free firmware on most bare metal systems, but
> nothing else from non-free.  I never remember how to include it at
> installation time.  And I don't want us to gloss over the fact that
> it is non-free and therefore not part of the official Debian system.

Yes, that is the core issue, isn't it?  In this corner case we are
being used as a pipe to carry a non-free blob from the manufacturer to
hardware.  That blob isn't part of Debian, any more than a bittorrent
stream is part of ComCast.  Yet both of us are being forced to carry
stuff we find obnoxious.

Luckily for Comcast they will work perfectly fine without the content
they would to charge more for.  All they have to do is convince the
politicians to let them do it.

We aren't so fortunate.  If we want to use Debian as a tool to educate
people on what free software is about, they have to be able to install
the thing.  That means we must swallow our pride and allow non-free
blobs for network drivers, GPU's, mass storage and what not onto our
install media.  So we fine ourselves in a catch 22 - if we want to
promote DFSG to the masses, we must break the DFSG for our very own
install media.  Worse, we must get permission from ourselves to do
this, and it seems we aren't as easily to manipulate as some
politicians.  Or maybe we are, because we already do distribute non
DFSG images.

Personally, I find the cognitive dissonance created hard reason about,
let alone swallow.  It seems like the DFSG contains it's own antidote. 
If true the DFSG needs to change to accommodate this corner case,
otherwise it will remain a festering auto immune disease we pick at for
eternity.

That doesn't seem like an impossible ask given the pipe analogy.  The
DFSG is ultimately about letting anyone start with Debian, and build
something new from it as easily as we can.  If we can
acknowledge Debian packages can serve as a mere communication channel
for blobs of data without compromising the "as easily as we can" bit,
then we have a way forward.

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Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Alf Gaida]

On 05.12.2017 00:11, Adam Borowski wrote:
> How exactly firmware is not software?
> We may take a concession and offer non-free or parts of non-free more
> prominently (as it's needed on modern x86, all wifi cards I've seen, etc),
> but let's not declare that non-software.
>
> Thus, until the situation improves:
> * let's make the non-free iso download more obvious
> * explain why it's bad.  No quotes from Stallman -- they're opaque to most
>   users, quotes from Linus would be better.
>
> On the other hand, there's only 297 non-free packages in Debian, thus I
> don't see a benefit in splitting that further.  Most of it is firmware or
> docs with unmodifiable parts anyway.
>
>
> Meow!
And that's exactly the point - non-free is non-free is non-free. And
will ever be. So - there is nothing like 'good' non-free versus 'bad'
non-free. For which reason ever (sources not available, license things,
etc. pp.) all non-free things will be non-free. There is no distinction
- and it will be sufficient to put some firmware on an iso and name that
iso 'non-free'  - with all the things said above. The only real question
in this context is: Is that piece of non-free software distributable or
not? If so, it might be shipped.

This step will help some free software also a lot - best example is the
radeon driver - the driver is free and usable, but depend on a non-free
firmware. And i also see no bad things in delivering two images - the
free and the non-free one - it would be nuts to put away the efforts
that was needed to create the free ones. And for a stronger user
experience there should be a script remove-non-free on the iso - the
script or better the command should be promoted too:

apt purge $(vrms -s)

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Adam Borowski]

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 11:46:37PM +0100, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> On Dec 04, Russ Allbery  wrote:
> 
> > +1.  I think firmware is something conceptually different than non-free
> > software in general, and it would be good to give users a simple way to
> > choose to enable non-free firmware without enabling other non-free
> > software.
> Me too.
> Mostly everybody believed this until at some point we had "editorial" 
> changes to the Social Contract.

How exactly firmware is not software?

We may take a concession and offer non-free or parts of non-free more
prominently (as it's needed on modern x86, all wifi cards I've seen, etc),
but let's not declare that non-software.

Thus, until the situation improves:
* let's make the non-free iso download more obvious
* explain why it's bad.  No quotes from Stallman -- they're opaque to most
  users, quotes from Linus would be better.

On the other hand, there's only 297 non-free packages in Debian, thus I
don't see a benefit in splitting that further.  Most of it is firmware or
docs with unmodifiable parts anyway.


Meow!
-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ 14:13 < icenowy[m]> are they hot enough? ;-)
⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ 14:17 < icenowy[m]> I think now in Europe it should be winter? Let
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ the BPi warm you ;-)
⠈⠳⣄ 14:17 <@KotCzarny> yeah, i have a pc to warm me ;)

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Michael Lustfield]

On Mon, 4 Dec 2017 23:41:34 +0500
Andrey Rahmatullin  wrote:

> On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 10:34:05AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> > For the discoverability, I would be quite comfortable with putting both
> > the free and the non-free download links prominantly on the page with the
> > non-free link going to or closely tied with a page that discusses the
> > issues, explains why we have this installer even though we don't really
> > want to, and maybe links to the FSF Respects Your Freedom pages to suggest
> > a hardware alternative.  
> There are alternatives?

As long as I avoid Nvidia, I usually have excellent luck finding systems
(specifically laptops) that work well without anything from non-free. With
servers, I usually need something for the networking drivers but nothing else.

-- 
Michael Lustfield

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Marco d'Itri]

On Dec 04, Russ Allbery  wrote:

> +1.  I think firmware is something conceptually different than non-free
> software in general, and it would be good to give users a simple way to
> choose to enable non-free firmware without enabling other non-free
> software.
Me too.
Mostly everybody believed this until at some point we had "editorial" 
changes to the Social Contract.

-- 
ciao,
Marco


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Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Holger Levsen]

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 11:18:21PM +0100, Philipp Kern wrote:
> I guess the question from my side is if the list of archive components
> in §5 of the Social Contract is supposed to be exhaustive or not. I.e.
> if we need to change that or not. If we don't need to: yay. (Maybe
> because we editorially consider firmware not to be software or something.)

hm, I think I'm standing somewhat corrected or shaky now, maybe this
*needs* a GR indeed. Then, my previous wording left room for the
interpretation that a GR would or could be good... ;)

> Is that something the secretary could tell us? :P

I believe so, yes.


-- 
cheers,
Holger


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Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Philipp Kern]

On 04.12.2017 19:03, Holger Levsen wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 05:36:30PM +, Ian Jackson wrote:
>> Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)"):
>>> Myself, I would prefer us to keep both the free-software-only ISO and
>>> the non-free ISO with firmware and other things needed to get typical
>>> modern hardware running, and improve the discoverability of the
>>> latter. I think we can do that without having to have a GR to change
>>> the Social Contract or the DFSG.
>> Yes.
> yes, I also agree this would work and be better than the status-quo.
> however I'm inclined to believe doing this and adding a fourth repo,
> non-free-firmware (additionally to main, contrib and non-free) would
> be even better and also not need a GR.

I like that this *finally* gets some traction. I have floated a GR
before but people seem to be reluctant to have yet another vote.

I guess the question from my side is if the list of archive components
in §5 of the Social Contract is supposed to be exhaustive or not. I.e.
if we need to change that or not. If we don't need to: yay. (Maybe
because we editorially consider firmware not to be software or something.)

Is that something the secretary could tell us? :P

Kind regards and thanks
Philipp Kern



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Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Ben Hutchings]

On Mon, 2017-12-04 at 10:34 -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Holger Levsen  writes:
> 
> > yes, I also agree this would work and be better than the status-quo.
> > however I'm inclined to believe doing this and adding a fourth repo,
> > non-free-firmware (additionally to main, contrib and non-free) would be
> > even better and also not need a GR.
> 
> +1.  I think firmware is something conceptually different than non-free
> software in general, and it would be good to give users a simple way to
> choose to enable non-free firmware without enabling other non-free
> software.
> 
> For the discoverability, I would be quite comfortable with putting both
> the free and the non-free download links prominantly on the page with the
> non-free link going to or closely tied with a page that discusses the
> issues, explains why we have this installer even though we don't really
> want to, and maybe links to the FSF Respects Your Freedom pages to suggest
> a hardware alternative.

+1.  I end up needing non-free firmware on most bare metal systems, but
nothing else from non-free.  I never remember how to include it at
installation time.  And I don't want us to gloss over the fact that it
is non-free and therefore not part of the official Debian system.

Ben.

-- 
Ben Hutchings
Lowery's Law:
If it jams, force it. If it breaks, it needed replacing anyway.



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Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Geert Stappers]

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 08:21:21PM +, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 10:34:05AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> >Holger Levsen  writes:
> >
> >>yes, I also agree this would work and be better than the status-quo.
> >>however I'm inclined to believe doing this and adding a fourth repo,
> >>non-free-firmware (additionally to main, contrib and non-free) would be
> >>even better and also not need a GR.
> >
> >+1.  I think firmware is something conceptually different than non-free
> >software in general, and it would be good to give users a simple way to
> >choose to enable non-free firmware without enabling other non-free
> >software.
> 
> I agree with Lars, Ian, Holger and Russ. (\o/)

+1

> I should now put my effort where my mouth is, and work on drafting
> proposals for the necessary website changes. (That's probably the area I
> can best contribute to right now; I'm less sure of the technical issues
> involved with a fourth repo. But I'd enjoy to learn if anyone feels like
> discussing them here!).

I have put some effort on http://stappers.it/ra303/
to solve the problem of getting non-free firmware
without adding 'non-free' to apt sources.


> >For the discoverability, I would be quite comfortable with putting both
> >the free and the non-free download links prominantly on the page with the
> >non-free link going to or closely tied with a page that discusses the
> >issues, explains why we have this installer even though we don't really
> >want to, and maybe links to the FSF Respects Your Freedom pages to suggest
> >a hardware alternative.
> 
> Agreed. I would like to be open to the idea that we hosted a page like
> that FSF one ourselves, but I think linking to the FSF's work is a good
> interim solution (perhaps long term one, maybe we will never get around
> to writing our own).
> 


Groeten
Geert Stappers
-- 
Leven en laten leven

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Jonas Meurer]

Am 04.12.2017 um 19:03 schrieb Holger Levsen:
> On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 05:36:30PM +, Ian Jackson wrote:
>> Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)"):
>>> Myself, I would prefer us to keep both the free-software-only ISO and
>>> the non-free ISO with firmware and other things needed to get typical
>>> modern hardware running, and improve the discoverability of the
>>> latter. I think we can do that without having to have a GR to change
>>> the Social Contract or the DFSG.
>> Yes.
>  
> yes, I also agree this would work and be better than the status-quo.
> however I'm inclined to believe doing this and adding a fourth repo,
> non-free-firmware (additionally to main, contrib and non-free) would
> be even better and also not need a GR.

+1

Cheers
 jonas



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Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 10:34:05AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:

Holger Levsen  writes:


yes, I also agree this would work and be better than the status-quo.
however I'm inclined to believe doing this and adding a fourth repo,
non-free-firmware (additionally to main, contrib and non-free) would be
even better and also not need a GR.


+1.  I think firmware is something conceptually different than non-free
software in general, and it would be good to give users a simple way to
choose to enable non-free firmware without enabling other non-free
software.


I agree with Lars, Ian, Holger and Russ. (\o/)

I should now put my effort where my mouth is, and work on drafting
proposals for the necessary website changes. (That's probably the area I
can best contribute to right now; I'm less sure of the technical issues
involved with a fourth repo. But I'd enjoy to learn if anyone feels like
discussing them here!).


For the discoverability, I would be quite comfortable with putting both
the free and the non-free download links prominantly on the page with the
non-free link going to or closely tied with a page that discusses the
issues, explains why we have this installer even though we don't really
want to, and maybe links to the FSF Respects Your Freedom pages to suggest
a hardware alternative.


Agreed. I would like to be open to the idea that we hosted a page like
that FSF one ourselves, but I think linking to the FSF's work is a good
interim solution (perhaps long term one, maybe we will never get around
to writing our own).

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Andrey Rahmatullin]

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 06:49:05PM +, Holger Levsen wrote:
> > There are alternatives?
> 
> always.
Non-x86, I assume.

-- 
WBR, wRAR


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Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Holger Levsen]

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 11:41:34PM +0500, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote:
> There are alternatives?

always.


-- 
cheers,
Holger


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Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Russ Allbery]

Andrey Rahmatullin  writes:
> On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 10:34:05AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:

>> For the discoverability, I would be quite comfortable with putting both
>> the free and the non-free download links prominantly on the page with
>> the non-free link going to or closely tied with a page that discusses
>> the issues, explains why we have this installer even though we don't
>> really want to, and maybe links to the FSF Respects Your Freedom pages
>> to suggest a hardware alternative.

> There are alternatives?

There are a few vendors who produce hardware with free firmware and try to
get rid of as much non-free code as possible.  The actual processors for
Intel-class systems still have issues, but it's a lot closer, and some of
those systems are ARM.

https://www.fsf.org/resources/hw/endorsement/respects-your-freedom

(Warning: The FSF is doing a membership drive with annoying pop-up
Javascript right now, for those who don't have Javascript disabled.)

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Andrey Rahmatullin]

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 10:34:05AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> For the discoverability, I would be quite comfortable with putting both
> the free and the non-free download links prominantly on the page with the
> non-free link going to or closely tied with a page that discusses the
> issues, explains why we have this installer even though we don't really
> want to, and maybe links to the FSF Respects Your Freedom pages to suggest
> a hardware alternative.
There are alternatives?

-- 
WBR, wRAR


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Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Russ Allbery]

Holger Levsen  writes:

> yes, I also agree this would work and be better than the status-quo.
> however I'm inclined to believe doing this and adding a fourth repo,
> non-free-firmware (additionally to main, contrib and non-free) would be
> even better and also not need a GR.

+1.  I think firmware is something conceptually different than non-free
software in general, and it would be good to give users a simple way to
choose to enable non-free firmware without enabling other non-free
software.

For the discoverability, I would be quite comfortable with putting both
the free and the non-free download links prominantly on the page with the
non-free link going to or closely tied with a page that discusses the
issues, explains why we have this installer even though we don't really
want to, and maybe links to the FSF Respects Your Freedom pages to suggest
a hardware alternative.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Holger Levsen]

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 05:36:30PM +, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)"):
> > Myself, I would prefer us to keep both the free-software-only ISO and
> > the non-free ISO with firmware and other things needed to get typical
> > modern hardware running, and improve the discoverability of the
> > latter. I think we can do that without having to have a GR to change
> > the Social Contract or the DFSG.
> Yes.
 
yes, I also agree this would work and be better than the status-quo.
however I'm inclined to believe doing this and adding a fourth repo,
non-free-firmware (additionally to main, contrib and non-free) would
be even better and also not need a GR.


-- 
cheers,
Holger


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Ian Jackson]

Lars Wirzenius writes ("Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)"):
> Myself, I would prefer us to keep both the free-software-only ISO and
> the non-free ISO with firmware and other things needed to get typical
> modern hardware running, and improve the discoverability of the
> latter. I think we can do that without having to have a GR to change
> the Social Contract or the DFSG.

Yes.

Ian.

-- 
Ian Jackson <ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>   These opinions are my own.

If I emailed you from an address @fyvzl.net or @evade.org.uk, that is
a private address which bypasses my fierce spamfilter.

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 04:37:24PM +0100, Marc Haber wrote:

On Sat, 02 Dec 2017 11:39:56 +, Medical Wei  wrote:

Actually I am thinking about people with non-free firmware problems to get
additional firmware and download them to another USB disk.
In this way the user don't need to re-download an "non-official" ISO to
install Debian.


Last time I tried to download the non-free firmware and put it on
another USB disk, I ended up in changing to a shell from the installer
and unpacking the firmware blobs to the correct place manually because
I wasn't able to figure out how the layout on the firmware disk had to
be for the installer to find it.


Yes, I've never managed to get d-i to find firmware I've put on a USB
myself, and always resorted to this approach. I never got around to
reading the source to figure out where it expects to look (nor to
improve the docs etc.)


--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Jeroen Dekkers]

On Mon, 04 Dec 2017 12:31:14 +0100,
Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 08:28:49AM +, Simon McVittie wrote:
> > I doubt there was any such decision, except by not knowing there was a
> > decision that could be made. The official, fully Free ISO (which is OK
> > for VMs and some embedded systems, but normally a trap for the PCs we
> > expect new users to be using) is the one you get when you point a browser
> > to debian.org and click the prominent "Download Debian" link. The one
> > with the firmware is hidden behind a door marked "beware of the leopard"
> > because we don't want to be seen to be endorsing or recommending non-free
> > software.
> 
> Simon, your mail has really motivated me to stick my head up a bit,
> because I'm really uncomfortable with the status quo with this exact
> issue in Debian, and although I think it will be very difficult and
> quite possibly painful, I think something needs to change, and your mail
> has helped me to face up to that.
> 
> IMHO, we need to go (more) one way or the other. We either reaffirm that
> firmware is in-scope for our DFSG values and stop compromising it with
> the non-free install images, or we look to revise the DFSG in line with
> modern realities and can "promote" the status of the installer images
> with firmware. That seems much harder: there have been brave efforts
> to reform the DFSG before, not least by Ian; and they have not
> succeeded. However, I think the project is healthier in one way from
> those days, we've weathered some fierce debates and I think we've grown
> as a project in the way we communicate together to resolve problems.

I don't think we have to change the DFSG. The DFSG defines what is
free software and in my opinion it is pretty clear that firmware is
software and therefore non-free firmware is non-free software.

The Social Contract already says that our priorities are our users
*and* free software and also acknowledges that users might require
non-free software. It also says we will provide an integrated system
of high-quality materials. It doesn't say that free software is of
higher priority.

As normal with foundation documents there is room for interpretation.
In my opinion changing the Debian website such that in every place we
list both an installation image with and without non-free firmware
wouldn't be in conflict with the Social Contract. We mention non-free
software in other places too, for example if I search for software on
packages.debian.org I also get non-free packages. The installer also
asks whether you want to install non-free software. (But that is maybe
only in expert mode? I always run the installer in expert mode so I am
not sure what the normal questions are.)

So it is already okay to ask the user whether the user wants to
install non-free software, but the problem is that it is pretty
difficult to download non-free software if you need that non-free
software for your network connection. I don't see why solving this
chicken-and-egg problem by prominently providing installation images
with such firmware wouldn't be an acceptable compromise.

Also not updating the processor microcode by default is in my opinion
in direct conflict with that users are our priority and that "we will
provide an integrated system of high-quality materials", but that's
probably a slightly different subject because it is not required to be
on the installation medium.


Kind regards,

Jeroen Dekkers

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Lars Wirzenius]

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 02:33:07PM +0100, Jeroen Dekkers wrote:
> Just because software comes pre-installed doesn't mean it is free. And
> if it is also impossible to replace the software you also can't update
> it with a free version so the user has even less freedom than when you
> can replace the software with something else.

While there is truth to what you say, and while it's a point that gets
brought up pretty much every time the issue of non-free firmware is
discussed, it is not a problem Debian can solve. We don't produce the
hardware, we have little say in the choice of the hardware, and there
is little we can do fix the freedom-related problems of software
embedded in or too tighly dependent on hardware - except that we can
explain the problems and pros and cons of possible solutions and maybe
point to less-problematic hardware choices. The result of this is not
a perfect world, but it might be a better world.

Just because a problem is currently too difficult to solve doesn't
mean we have to give up any hope of solving other problems that are
feasible for us to solve.

Myself, I would prefer us to keep both the free-software-only ISO and
the non-free ISO with firmware and other things needed to get typical
modern hardware running, and improve the discoverability of the
latter. I think we can do that without having to have a GR to change
the Social Contract or the DFSG.

-- 
I want to build worthwhile things that might last. --joeyh

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Jeroen Dekkers]

On Mon, 04 Dec 2017 13:21:49 +0100,
Ben Finney wrote:
> 
> Jonathan Dowland  writes:
> 
> > Are *you* using non-free firmware?
> 
> The machines sold by, for example, ThinkPenguin, work with the latest
> Debian release, without non-free software. There's one example, which
> responds to the rhetoric of that question.

So can you point me to the free versions of the Intel microcode, the
Intel Management Engine, BIOS, firmware of the wireless chip, the
firmware of the hard disk, etc. that's running on that laptop?

Just because software comes pre-installed doesn't mean it is free. And
if it is also impossible to replace the software you also can't update
it with a free version so the user has even less freedom than when you
can replace the software with something else.


Kind regards,

Jeroen Dekkers

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Paul Wise]

On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 7:39 PM, Jonathan Dowland wrote:

> Are we promoting hardware that *doesn't* require non-free firmware (not
> drivers, there is an important distinction) at the moment?

On our website, we don't promote hardware, just people/companies that
you can pay to install Debian for you:

https://www.debian.org/distrib/pre-installed

On our wiki, there are numerous install howto pages but we don't
separate those by non-free firmware requirement, just by vendor.

https://wiki.debian.org/InstallingDebianOn

> Where are we prominently explaining the problem?

In our install manual at least:

https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch02s02.html.en
https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch02s03.html.en

> Where are the links to the unencumbered hardware that
> people could/should be using instead?

We can definitely do better here, especially after promoting h-node in
a press release:

https://www.debian.org/News/2014/20140908

> Where are the Debian developers working on better supporting such
> hardware, where are the blog posts on Planet Debian about it, where are
> the unencumbered hardware platforms being distributed with Debian
> pre-installed?

mafm posted about his work on the RISC-V architecture port a while
ago, which has the potential to be

> Instead we prevent close to 100% of our new potential users from
> installing on their laptops due to the firmware issue. Those users are
> much more likely to go elsewhere than to be educated as to the merits of
> free software and unencumbered hardware.

We can definitely do better here and I think it is feasible to do
both, as mentioned in my other mail.

> Are *you* using non-free firmware?

Unfortunately yes, all of the devices I've acquired in recent history
have required firmware from Debian non-free and also had embedded
non-free firmware. Multiple devices even ran Linux and most of those
were GPL-violating, one even violated the BSD license for some of the
userland.

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise#contribnonfree

> I can understand the discomfort of grasping this nettle. But are you
> completely closed to the idea of revisiting our core value documents
> at all? The Social Contract and DFSG were written a long time ago.
> Should the project not be open to looking at what our collective values
> are today, or are we beholden to the terms layed down by braver people,
> all those years ago?

Personally, I think the values written down in the SC/DFSG are not
where we are going wrong, but our execution of them could use some
work.

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Paul Wise]

On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 7:31 PM, Jonathan Dowland wrote:

> IMHO, we need to go (more) one way or the other. We either reaffirm that
> firmware is in-scope for our DFSG values and stop compromising it with
> the non-free install images, or we look to revise the DFSG in line with
> modern realities and can "promote" the status of the installer images
> with firmware. That seems much harder: there have been brave efforts
> to reform the DFSG before, not least by Ian; and they have not
> succeeded. However, I think the project is healthier in one way from
> those days, we've weathered some fierce debates and I think we've grown
> as a project in the way we communicate together to resolve problems.

I don't like this dichotomy and I think we can do better than choosing
one or the other. Instead, expose the reality of the situation to
users, state Debian's position on non-free firmware, state that the
practical downsides of using (or not) non-free firmware, mitigate them
using more imaginative solutions where possible, give users the choice
to use non-free firmware if they want to and also give them the choice
to use just the firmware part of non-free by having a
non-free/firmware subset.

For example, we could offer the Debian installer itself or
win32-loader style tools as apps on other operating systems, where
they can detect the hardware present but still access the network to
download firmware from Debian non-free or extract firmware from the
filesystem of the operating system it runs under. This approach is
practical for Windows (win32-loader or WSL), Linux/BSD distros
(perhaps via Flatpak) and possible for Android (several of apps exist
already, the android-sdk is being packaged) based devices right now,
for macOS devices it seems a bit more tricky, perhaps Python & Tk
would work as an installer bootstrap app. I guess Debian can give up
on iOS devices due to lockdown (though there is one person on
#debian-mobile who was working on trying to get Debian installed on an
iPhone) and consoles/TVs/IoT and other "appliance"-class devices due
to lockdown and/or GPL violations.

https://wiki.debian.org/ChrootOnAndroid
https://wiki.debian.org/AndroidTools
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usage_share_of_operating_systems

> I know I've needed non-free firmware on every single laptop I've ever
> used Debian with and I suspect that's true for nearly everyone.

That is the nature of the hardware industry these days, except perhaps
for some future corners of the RISC-V community and a few minor
exceptions like carl9170.fw or open-ath9k-htc-firmware. Even hardware
that allegedly "doesn't need non-free firmware" usually has it
embedded instead.

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Andrey Rahmatullin]

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 11:21:49PM +1100, Ben Finney wrote:
> and the Debian Project promotes hardware that doesn't
> require non-free firmware (because the Debian system by default needs no
> extra drivers for that hardware).
... equally with the hardware that uses pre-flashed firmware.

> > I don't think so. Where are we prominently explaining the problem?
> > Where are the links to the unencumbered hardware that people
> > could/should be using instead?
> 
> This rhetorical question suggests that it's not the place of the Debian
> Project to promote specific hardware. I agree with that.
> 
> On the other hand, we recognise, and can certainly draw attention to,
> hardware that works with entirely free software;
... not counting the software installed outside the OS.

> and we can refuse to lend our effort to any reduction of software
> freedom for our users.
"Freedom is slavery".

> > Are *you* using non-free firmware?
> 
> The machines sold by, for example, ThinkPenguin, work with the latest
> Debian release, without non-free software. 
... by using the firmware on the boards.

> That distinction – there is hardware which works with entirely free
> software, and we work to keep it so – is one of the most valuable things
> the Debian Project does
Oh yeah.

> There are, of course, hardware vendors that expend a lot of effort in
> opposition to that goal.
E.g. by providing firmware updates and requiring the OS to load them.

-- 
WBR, wRAR


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Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Ben Finney]

Jonathan Dowland  writes:

> On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 09:17:59PM +0100, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> >I at least, and probably a lot of Debian contributors, would start
> >hating Debian for promoting hardware that needs non-free drivers if
> >the non-free ISO was the default one.
>
> Are we promoting hardware that *doesn't* require non-free firmware
> (not drivers, there is an important distinction) at the moment?

I don't know what is meant (in either message) by “promoting hardware”.
What does an assertion of “yes, we promote such-and-so hardware” imply?

The implication that seems most sensible – we promote hardware to the
extent that we produce the Debian operating system supporting it – would
mean, AFAICT, that the Debian Project does not promote hardware that
needs non-free drivers (because the Debian system does not provide such
non-free drivers); and the Debian Project promotes hardware that doesn't
require non-free firmware (because the Debian system by default needs no
extra drivers for that hardware).

> I don't think so. Where are we prominently explaining the problem?
> Where are the links to the unencumbered hardware that people
> could/should be using instead?

This rhetorical question suggests that it's not the place of the Debian
Project to promote specific hardware. I agree with that.

On the other hand, we recognise, and can certainly draw attention to,
hardware that works with entirely free software; and we can refuse to
lend our effort to any reduction of software freedom for our users.

> Are *you* using non-free firmware?

The machines sold by, for example, ThinkPenguin, work with the latest
Debian release, without non-free software. There's one example, which
responds to the rhetoric of that question.

That distinction – there is hardware which works with entirely free
software, and we work to keep it so – is one of the most valuable things
the Debian Project does, and is why I work for the Debian Project.

There are, of course, hardware vendors that expend a lot of effort in
opposition to that goal. That does not justify the Debian Project
retreating from that goal.

> I can understand the discomfort of grasping this nettle.

Likewise, the nettle of pressing for increased software freedom is
difficult to grasp, but IMO core to the Debian Project.

> But are you completely closed to the idea of revisiting our core value
> documents at all? The Social Contract and DFSG were written a long
> time ago. Should the project not be open to looking at what our
> collective values are today, or are we beholden to the terms layed
> down by braver people, all those years ago?

Any idea is open to examination, I'd say. But this thread has not
presented any salient reason to retreat from the core values of the
project. Indeed, the facts presented in this thread cast into sharp
relief the urgency of recognising and pressing for software freedom.

-- 
 \  “I have a large seashell collection, which I keep scattered on |
  `\the beaches all over the world. Maybe you've seen it.” —Steven |
_o__)   Wright |
Ben Finney

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Riku Voipio]

On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 04:46:24PM +0100, Marc Haber wrote:
> Yes. We're approaching a worst-of-both-worlds scenario: We're not Free
> enough to have the FSF recommend us, and we're not non-free enough for
> our OS to run on current hardware used by Linux beginners, and cause
> them to end up with OSses that are (a) not Debian, and (b) even less
> Free than Debian.

Well articulated. 

But this is more of an website problem. We already have installers with
non-free firmwares, we just hide them under "unofficial[1]"

We have a conflict between "We don't hide problems" and the FSF "don't
recommend non-free software". The FSF stand is that we recommend nonfree
software already - by having links to non-free software in our web and
wiki[2]. So we might as well add proper links to the non-free software
in the installer CD page.

[1] http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/
[2] https://www.gnu.org/distros/common-distros.en.html

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Andrey Rahmatullin]

On Mon, Dec 04, 2017 at 11:39:18AM +, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> > I at least, and probably a lot of Debian contributors, would start
> > hating Debian for promoting hardware that needs non-free drivers if the
> > non-free ISO was the default one.
> 
> Are we promoting hardware that *doesn't* require non-free firmware (not
> drivers, there is an important distinction) at the moment?
Do we even have completely free hardware (one with an open source license
for its onboard firmware) for all required hardware kinds?

-- 
WBR, wRAR


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Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 05:05:58PM -0500, Theodore Ts'o wrote:

Personally, as a developer, I will say there is one benefit of being
so user-unfriendly that the usable ISO is hidden under the
beware-of-leopard sign, which is that it serves as a "you have to be
this technically aware to install debian" barrier.  As a result, we
don't have the low signal-to-noise bug reports that are all-too-common
on Ubuntu's launchpad.net.


I don't see this as a benefit; I see this as an exclusionary,
private-club elitist attitude.


So if we want to reform our "FSF-ly correct freedom is more important
than being friendly to novices" (and it's not clear Debian as a whole
agrees with this sentiment), folks might want to consider that this
probably means we will need to have more people doing bug triage.


We would have *many more people* around to do it, too.

--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 09:17:59PM +0100, Thomas Goirand wrote:

I at least, and probably a lot of Debian contributors, would start
hating Debian for promoting hardware that needs non-free drivers if the
non-free ISO was the default one.


Are we promoting hardware that *doesn't* require non-free firmware (not
drivers, there is an important distinction) at the moment? I don't think
so. Where are we prominently explaining the problem? Where are the links
to the unencumbered hardware that people could/should be using instead?
Where are the Debian developers working on better supporting such
hardware, where are the blog posts on Planet Debian about it, where are
the unencumbered hardware platforms being distributed with Debian
pre-installed?

Instead we prevent close to 100% of our new potential users from
installing on their laptops due to the firmware issue. Those users are
much more likely to go elsewhere than to be educated as to the merits of
free software and unencumbered hardware.

Are *you* using non-free firmware?

I can understand the discomfort of grasping this nettle. But are you
completely closed to the idea of revisiting our core value documents
at all? The Social Contract and DFSG were written a long time ago.
Should the project not be open to looking at what our collective values
are today, or are we beholden to the terms layed down by braver people,
all those years ago?


--
Jonathan Dowland

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Jonathan Dowland]

On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 08:28:49AM +, Simon McVittie wrote:

I doubt there was any such decision, except by not knowing there was a
decision that could be made. The official, fully Free ISO (which is OK
for VMs and some embedded systems, but normally a trap for the PCs we
expect new users to be using) is the one you get when you point a browser
to debian.org and click the prominent "Download Debian" link. The one
with the firmware is hidden behind a door marked "beware of the leopard"
because we don't want to be seen to be endorsing or recommending non-free
software.


Simon, your mail has really motivated me to stick my head up a bit,
because I'm really uncomfortable with the status quo with this exact
issue in Debian, and although I think it will be very difficult and
quite possibly painful, I think something needs to change, and your mail
has helped me to face up to that.

IMHO, we need to go (more) one way or the other. We either reaffirm that
firmware is in-scope for our DFSG values and stop compromising it with
the non-free install images, or we look to revise the DFSG in line with
modern realities and can "promote" the status of the installer images
with firmware. That seems much harder: there have been brave efforts
to reform the DFSG before, not least by Ian; and they have not
succeeded. However, I think the project is healthier in one way from
those days, we've weathered some fierce debates and I think we've grown
as a project in the way we communicate together to resolve problems.

I know I've needed non-free firmware on every single laptop I've ever
used Debian with and I suspect that's true for nearly everyone.


--

⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀
⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Jonathan Dowland
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ https://jmtd.net
⠈⠳⣄ Please do not CC me, I am subscribed to the list.

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Sven Hartge]

Paul Wise  wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 5:22 AM, Marc Haber wrote:

>> Debian is also about providing an Universal Operating System, and I
>> have seen BIG installations of Debian on server farms moving to
>> PragBF because the Broadcom network chips on those servers required
>> people jumping through hoops while PragBF just works.

> Could you link to PragBF? I can't find any mention of it on web search
> engines.

ROT13: CentOS

Grüße,
Sven.

-- 
Sigmentation fault. Core dumped.

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Paul Wise]

On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 5:22 AM, Marc Haber wrote:

> Debian is also about providing an Universal Operating System, and I
> have seen BIG installations of Debian on server farms moving to PragBF
> because the Broadcom network chips on those servers required people
> jumping through hoops while PragBF just works.

Could you link to PragBF? I can't find any mention of it on web search engines.

-- 
bye,
pabs

https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Thomas Goirand]

On 12/03/2017 11:20 PM, Alf Gaida wrote:
> It is not only the last bit. And i don't think that 'a little bit more'
> promotion is sufficient. We should clearly state why we prefer the free
> ones. But we should not hide the non-free ones and should have them on
> the same site. With a clear statement why these images are not prefered.

As I wrote to you privately (why did you send 2 separate emails?), this
last paragraph shows we agree: we both want the ISO including these bad
firmwares to be reachable, as long as we very much insist on the fact
that it's an unfortunate non-free workaround for bad hardware vendors,
and that we prefer the version not including these. So let's not argue
more! :)

Cheers,

Thomas Goirand (zigo)

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Alf Gaida]

On 03.12.2017 21:17, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> The FSF wouldn't be the only one. I at least, and probably a lot of
> Debian contributors, would start hating Debian for promoting hardware
> that needs non-free drivers if the non-free ISO was the default one. If
> this drives some of our users away, never mind, we're doing free
> software, that's what Debian is about.
With all due respect - i can't follow here, no way. In that case i never
ever has joined Debian nor spend an hour on it. So - first thing was to
read and understand the Debian Social Contract. Do you remember, you once
aggreed with this too:


1. Debian will remain 100% free
We provide the guidelines that we use to determine if a work is "free" in
the document entitled "The Debian Free Software Guidelines". We promise that
the Debian system and all its components will be free according to these
guidelines. We will support people who create or use both free and non-free
works on Debian. We will never make the system require the use of a non-free
component.

^^ And i take that dead serious - i work only on free software, but i use
non-free too. And i think i will do so in future.

4. Our priorities are our users and free software
We will be guided by the needs of our users and the free software
community.
We will place their interests first in our priorities. We will support the
needs of our users for operation in many different kinds of computing
environments.
We will not object to non-free works that are intended to be used on
Debian systems,
or attempt to charge a fee to people who create or use such works. We
will allow
others to create distributions containing both the Debian system and
other works,
without any fee from us. In furtherance of these goals, we will provide
an integrated
system of high-quality materials with no legal restrictions that would
prevent such
uses of the system.

^^ Hmm, i can't read anything about: I don't care about users, they
suck, i do free
software.

> Happy, but using non-free software. This isn't what Debian is about.
> I've signed-up on the social-contract, and I stand by it.
>
>> What do we weight more: Happy users or free software?
> Free software, definitively. If users aren't happy, it's not our fault,
> but the one of hardware makers that are promoting non-free software.
> Instead trying to convince Debian people, it'd be better if you spent
> your energy trying to convince hardware makers.
Cool - but i don't aggree here - i work hard on free software, not for free
software. I want happy users to use this software.

I left out the FSF part - nothing new. And promoting our free ISOs will not
make them working better. If they work on some hardware or in some virt.
machines - cool. But in real life a new Debian user has some hardware
and not
much experience in running a linux system. And do you really expect that a
new user will be interested in Debian politics first hand? I guess no. If
we drive those users away from Debian they are a loss for the whole FOSS
ecosystem. But if they stay and become educated over time ... 

> It's probably that last bit that needs to be fixed. In my view, it'd be
> fine to promote this ISO a little bit more, as long as we write in BOLD
> that this contains non-free drivers, and how bad hardware makers are.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Thomas Goirand (zigo)
>
It is not only the last bit. And i don't think that 'a little bit more'
promotion is sufficient. We should clearly state why we prefer the free
ones. But we should not hide the non-free ones and should have them on
the same site. With a clear statement why these images are not prefered.

Cheers

Alf Gaida (agaida)

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[Theodore Ts'o]

On Sat, Dec 02, 2017 at 11:59:08AM +, Sue Spence wrote:
> On 2 December 2017 at 11:49, Holger Levsen  wrote:
> 
> > On Sat, Dec 02, 2017 at 12:32:29PM +0100, Geert Stappers wrote:
> > > URL is https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/
> > cd-including-firmware/
> >
> > so who will make nonfree.debian.net and non-free.debian.net
> > http-redirect to that URL? :)
>
> I'll be writing a blog post this weekend which links to it, if only for my
> own sake. I get the joke of course, but Debian is free with or without the
> firmware so I wouldn't set up such a redirect out of my own pedantic
> notions of correctness, never mind everyone else's. :)

How about https://works-on-pcs.debian.org?  :-)

Personally, as a developer, I will say there is one benefit of being
so user-unfriendly that the usable ISO is hidden under the
beware-of-leopard sign, which is that it serves as a "you have to be
this technically aware to install debian" barrier.  As a result, we
don't have the low signal-to-noise bug reports that are all-too-common
on Ubuntu's launchpad.net.

So if we want to reform our "FSF-ly correct freedom is more important
than being friendly to novices" (and it's not clear Debian as a whole
agrees with this sentiment), folks might want to consider that this
probably means we will need to have more people doing bug triage.

Personally, I think prioritizing users who just want to a working
PC/Laptop over the FSF is the right choice, since I belong to the
pragmatic wing of the Open Source movement, but I suspect I'm in the
minority in the Debian community.  Which is fine; I'll just continue
to enjoy the high quality of most bug reports in the Debian BTS.  :-)

- Ted

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Marc Haber]

On Sun, 3 Dec 2017 21:17:59 +0100, Thomas Goirand 
wrote:
>The FSF wouldn't be the only one. I at least, and probably a lot of
>Debian contributors, would start hating Debian for promoting hardware
>that needs non-free drivers if the non-free ISO was the default one. If
>this drives some of our users away, never mind, we're doing free
>software, that's what Debian is about.

Debian is also about providing an Universal Operating System, and I
have seen BIG installations of Debian on server farms moving to PragBF
because the Broadcom network chips on those servers required people
jumping through hoops while PragBF just works.

We're actively driving _real_ users, those that also shell out money
to sponsor Debian, away from Debian with those steps.

Greetings
Marc
-- 
-- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -
Marc Haber |   " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany  | Beginning of Wisdom " | http://www.zugschlus.de/
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 72739834

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Thomas Goirand]

On 12/01/2017 05:31 PM, Alf Gaida wrote:
> On 01.12.2017 16:53, Ian Jackson wrote:
>> Simon McVittie writes ("Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)"):
>>> I find it interesting that we're having this conversation at the same
>>> time as a thread about how there should be a configuration option that
>>> denies our users the opportunity to choose to install non-free software.
>> Perhaps you mean: a configuration option that allows a user not to be
>> nagged to install non-free software.
>>
>> FAOD I agree that the current situation with install images for random
>> PCs is quite unsatisfactory, but I don't know how to square the circle.
>>
>> Ian.
>>
> Ian, thats dead easy - put the needed packages onto the iso and be done
> with. The installer should have an option to opt-in contrib and/or
> non-free. Done. Ok, that was the technical part. The other part of the
> story would be that the FSF wouldn't like us for that step.

The FSF wouldn't be the only one. I at least, and probably a lot of
Debian contributors, would start hating Debian for promoting hardware
that needs non-free drivers if the non-free ISO was the default one. If
this drives some of our users away, never mind, we're doing free
software, that's what Debian is about.

> and some other people who think
> that every debian user need to be educated that one has to buy hardware
> that would work without non-free things.

Yes, I do believe it's important to educate people to free software.

> The majority of the users would be happy.

Happy, but using non-free software. This isn't what Debian is about.
I've signed-up on the social-contract, and I stand by it.

> What do we weight more: Happy users or free software?

Free software, definitively. If users aren't happy, it's not our fault,
but the one of hardware makers that are promoting non-free software.
Instead trying to convince Debian people, it'd be better if you spent
your energy trying to convince hardware makers.

> The FSF has answered this before - Debian is not
> free, so they don't recommend us.

Honestly, and with all due respect, I don't care the FSF view. It just
happens to be the same as mine, which is good. But what the FSF view is,
isn't what motivates me. It's what the Debian view is. That's what
counts when contributing to Debian, not the view of a 3rd party
organization, even if it deserves a lot of respect, like the FSF.

> Their choice. We choose to promote and
> deliver iso's without any non-free. Our choice. And for the people with
> the needed knowledge there are iso's that will work well with nearly all
> hardware. Sounds fair, doesn't it?

Instead of flaming the FSF, you should probably advocate for having the
non-free ISO promoted a little bit more. Please leave the FSF alone,
it's a very nice organization, and they do super nice work. We aren't
working against each others.

> Debian
> will be limited to users who prefer free software or have the knowledge
> to work around these limitations. Or are able to find the working isos
> with non-free.

It's probably that last bit that needs to be fixed. In my view, it'd be
fine to promote this ISO a little bit more, as long as we write in BOLD
that this contains non-free drivers, and how bad hardware makers are.

Cheers,

Thomas Goirand (zigo)

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[Michael Stone]

On Sun, Dec 03, 2017 at 04:37:24PM +0100, Marc Haber wrote:

Last time I tried to download the non-free firmware and put it on
another USB disk, I ended up in changing to a shell from the installer
and unpacking the firmware blobs to the correct place manually because
I wasn't able to figure out how the layout on the firmware disk had to
be for the installer to find it.

Because the docs are so vague about that and the installer didn't
bother to log the path it was looking at to any log that I was able to
find.

And yes, I am a DD and should be able to figure that out.


FWIW, I've had the same experience. I think it is time to revisit 
firmware distribution on easily-accessible images.


Mike Stone

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Marc Haber]

On Fri, 1 Dec 2017 21:38:46 +0500, Andrey Rahmatullin
 wrote:
>ALso AFAIK when packages are temporarily removed from testing for various
>reasons that may break the user systems (or, at least, make their
>experience worse when they want to install something). At least I've seen
>a position of "testing is not for users but to help us make stable",
>correct me if I'm wrong.

And still, testing is in _wide_ use by beginners because that's what
the semi-beginners recommend since stable is old.

Greetings
Marc
-- 
-- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -
Marc Haber |   " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany  | Beginning of Wisdom " | http://www.zugschlus.de/
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 72739834

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Marc Haber]

On Fri, 1 Dec 2017 10:15:41 +, Jonathan Dowland 
wrote:
>On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 02:34:40PM +0800, Paul Wise wrote:
>>It would have been best for him to download the ISO with non-free
>>firmware embedded, do you know how he made the decision to download
>>the ISO without non-free firmware?
>
>I can't even find it from following links on debian.org, although I know
>that it exists.

Agreed, I failed last week finding that ISO.

>>Sounds like you need to get him to file a bug against ntfs-3g and
>>against whichever meta-package or other component should be installing
>>ntfs-3g.
>
>We've missed the boat, he's not using Debian anymore.

Yes. We're approaching a worst-of-both-worlds scenario: We're not Free
enough to have the FSF recommend us, and we're not non-free enough for
our OS to run on current hardware used by Linux beginners, and cause
them to end up with OSses that are (a) not Debian, and (b) even less
Free than Debian.

It's the same story we had five years ago when our release cycle
changed.

Greetings
Marc
-- 
-- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -
Marc Haber |   " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany  | Beginning of Wisdom " | http://www.zugschlus.de/
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 72739834

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[Marc Haber]

On Sat, 02 Dec 2017 11:39:56 +, Medical Wei  wrote:
>Actually I am thinking about people with non-free firmware problems to get
>additional firmware and download them to another USB disk.
>In this way the user don't need to re-download an "non-official" ISO to
>install Debian.

Last time I tried to download the non-free firmware and put it on
another USB disk, I ended up in changing to a shell from the installer
and unpacking the firmware blobs to the correct place manually because
I wasn't able to figure out how the layout on the firmware disk had to
be for the installer to find it.

Because the docs are so vague about that and the installer didn't
bother to log the path it was looking at to any log that I was able to
find.

And yes, I am a DD and should be able to figure that out.

Any no, I didn't file a bug report because I didn't have time to do
that at the time I was fiddling with the machine and now the machine
is live and I can't take it out to reproduce the issue to be able to
produce a meaningful bug report.

And yes, I know that ranting doesn't help. If you agree, bear in mind
that I was ranting about my own stupidity, not about the superiority
of Debian's installer and the docs. Those are fine.

Greetings
Marc
-- 
-- !! No courtesy copies, please !! -
Marc Haber |   " Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header
Mannheim, Germany  | Beginning of Wisdom " | http://www.zugschlus.de/
Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG "Rightful Heir" | Fon: *49 621 72739834

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[Andrey Rahmatullin]

On Sat, Dec 02, 2017 at 10:39:30PM +0100, Luca Capello wrote:
> IMHO you should document yourself
> *before* trying something, and I am not even considering firmware at
> all.  Or, if you prefer, you should not assume that everything works out
> of the box (in any field, thus not IT-restricted).
That's the difference indeed.

-- 
WBR, wRAR


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Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[Luca Capello]

Hi there,

On Sat, 02 Dec 2017 13:17:13 +0500, Andrey Rahmatullin wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 10:14:21PM +0100, Luca Capello wrote:
> > > > It would have been best for him to download the ISO with non-free
> > > > firmware embedded, do you know how he made the decision to download
> > > > the ISO without non-free firmware?
> > > 
> > > Every time I need a Debian ISO, it takes me minutes to find it.
> > > I didn't even know, that there were an ISO with non-free firmware.
> > > 
> > > There should be a beautiful ISO download page, e.g.
  ^
> > > https://www.debian.org/download[s]/
> > > with all architectures and supported releases, similar to
  ^
> > > https://www.ubuntu.com/download
> > > or
> > > https://linuxmint.com/download.php
> > 
> > Like the following?
> > 
> >   
> Note "I didn't even know, that there were an ISO with non-free firmware."
> And I'm 100% sure someone who wants to install Linux for the first time
> won't even think about whether they need some special non-official image
> to do that.

Sorry, I was not replying at the "non-free firmware" part, but to
debacle's suggestion of having a "beautiful ISO download page"
(underlined above to be sure we are talking about the same thing).

> > However, given that no one reads the documentation today, but it relies
> > on search engines, the first result in DuckDuckGo (and FWIW in Google as
> > well) for "Debian Firmware" gives...
> This implies someone will actually search for that before trying an
> install and asking why there is no network.

What was not clear in my words?  IMHO you should document yourself
*before* trying something, and I am not even considering firmware at
all.  Or, if you prefer, you should not assume that everything works out
of the box (in any field, thus not IT-restricted).

And, FWIW, when d-i tells you that you need a firmware for network
(Wi-Fi or not) to work, the installation process has not started yet,
which means that if the computer you are installing Debian into is the
only one you have the previous OS is still there.  Thus my tests for
search engine results for "Debian Firmware".

Thx, bye,
Gismo / Luca


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Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Ben Hutchings]

On Fri, 2017-12-01 at 12:16 -0500, Roberto C. Sánchez wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 05:31:09PM +0100, Alf Gaida wrote:
> > > 
> > 
> > Ian, thats dead easy - put the needed packages onto the iso and be done
> > with. The installer should have an option to opt-in contrib and/or
> > non-free. Done. Ok, that was the technical part.
> 
> Which has the potential to make the installer non-distributable or not
> freely redistributable the same way as free packages.  Even if the
> Debian project obtained the necessary permission/license to
> redistributed, it would certainly have restrictions and I suspect it
> would not likely be something that would autoatically transfer to other
> entities (think users copying/sharing installers or derivative
> distributions).
> 
> The situation is more complex than your characterization.

FWIW, almost all the non-free firmware packaged in Debian is freely
redistributable.  The only exceptions I know are in the firmware-
ipw2x00 and firmware-ivtv packages, which have 'clickwrap' EULAs.

firmware-ivtv will never be needed at installation time, and firmware-
ipw2x00 is for wifi chips that haven't been sold for around 10 years,
so I think it would be reasonable to leave it out.

Ben.

-- 
Ben Hutchings
When in doubt, use brute force. - Ken Thompson



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Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[Sue Spence]

On 2 December 2017 at 11:49, Holger Levsen  wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 02, 2017 at 12:32:29PM +0100, Geert Stappers wrote:
> > URL is https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/
> cd-including-firmware/
>
> so who will make nonfree.debian.net and non-free.debian.net
> http-redirect to that URL? :)
>
>
>
I'll be writing a blog post this weekend which links to it, if only for my
own sake. I get the joke of course, but Debian is free with or without the
firmware so I wouldn't set up such a redirect out of my own pedantic
notions of correctness, never mind everyone else's. :)

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[Holger Levsen]

On Sat, Dec 02, 2017 at 12:32:29PM +0100, Geert Stappers wrote:
> URL is 
> https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/
 
so who will make nonfree.debian.net and non-free.debian.net
http-redirect to that URL? :)


-- 
cheers,
Holger


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Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[Andrey Rahmatullin]

On Sat, Dec 02, 2017 at 12:32:29PM +0100, Geert Stappers wrote:
> > > http://get.debian.org
> > > Might not be beautiful, but it has the needed information, clearly
> > > spelt out.
> > 
> > besides that I find that page still too confusing / not simple enough,
> > it also lacks information about the non-free images.
> 
> URL is 
> https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/
We are talking about how easy to find such URLs though.

-- 
WBR, wRAR


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Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[Medical Wei]

Actually I am thinking about people with non-free firmware problems to get
additional firmware and download them to another USB disk.
In this way the user don't need to re-download an "non-official" ISO to
install Debian.

But if Policy can allow non-free firmware to go accompany with the ISO it
could be usability wise better.

Yao Wei
On Sat, 2 Dec 2017 at 19:32 Geert Stappers  wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 02, 2017 at 10:49:32AM +, Holger Levsen wrote:
> > On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 12:05:27PM -0600, Gunnar Wolf wrote:
> > > http://get.debian.org
> > > Might not be beautiful, but it has the needed information, clearly
> > > spelt out.
> >
> > besides that I find that page still too confusing / not simple enough,
> > it also lacks information about the non-free images.
>
> URL is
> https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/
>
>
> Groeten
> Geert Stappers
> --
> Leven en laten leven
>
>

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[Geert Stappers]

On Sat, Dec 02, 2017 at 10:49:32AM +, Holger Levsen wrote:
> On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 12:05:27PM -0600, Gunnar Wolf wrote:
> > http://get.debian.org
> > Might not be beautiful, but it has the needed information, clearly
> > spelt out.
> 
> besides that I find that page still too confusing / not simple enough,
> it also lacks information about the non-free images.

URL is 
https://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/


Groeten
Geert Stappers
-- 
Leven en laten leven

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[eamanu15 .]

El sáb., 2 de dic. de 2017 a la(s) 05:17, Andrey Rahmatullin <
w...@debian.org> escribió:

> On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 10:14:21PM +0100, Luca Capello wrote:
> > > > It would have been best for him to download the ISO with non-free
> > > > firmware embedded, do you know how he made the decision to download
> > > > the ISO without non-free firmware?
> > >
> > > Every time I need a Debian ISO, it takes me minutes to find it.
> > > I didn't even know, that there were an ISO with non-free firmware.
> > >
> > > There should be a beautiful ISO download page, e.g.
> > > https://www.debian.org/download[s]/
> > > with all architectures and supported releases, similar to
> > > https://www.ubuntu.com/download
> > > or
> > > https://linuxmint.com/download.php
> >
> > Like the following?
> >
> >   
> Note "I didn't even know, that there were an ISO with non-free firmware."
> And I'm 100% sure someone who wants to install Linux for the first time
> won't even think about whether they need some special non-official image
> to do that.
>

No. but I am 100% sure that a new user will ask "why my WIFi doen't work?"
And then they wiil take the time to search the reason and search the
non-free software  And  in the debian page is very difficult  to find
it.



> > However, given that no one reads the documentation today, but it relies
> > on search engines, the first result in DuckDuckGo (and FWIW in Google as
> > well) for "Debian Firmware" gives...
> This implies someone will actually search for that before trying an
> install and asking why there is no network.
>
> --
> WBR, wRAR
>
-- 
Arias Emmanuel
https://www.linkedin.com/in/emmanuel-arias-437a6a8a
http://eamanu.com

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[Holger Levsen]

On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 12:05:27PM -0600, Gunnar Wolf wrote:
> http://get.debian.org
> Might not be beautiful, but it has the needed information, clearly
> spelt out.

besides that I find that page still too confusing / not simple enough,
it also lacks information about the non-free images.


-- 
cheers,
Holger


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Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[Andrey Rahmatullin]

On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 10:14:21PM +0100, Luca Capello wrote:
> > > It would have been best for him to download the ISO with non-free
> > > firmware embedded, do you know how he made the decision to download
> > > the ISO without non-free firmware?
> > 
> > Every time I need a Debian ISO, it takes me minutes to find it.
> > I didn't even know, that there were an ISO with non-free firmware.
> > 
> > There should be a beautiful ISO download page, e.g.
> > https://www.debian.org/download[s]/
> > with all architectures and supported releases, similar to
> > https://www.ubuntu.com/download
> > or
> > https://linuxmint.com/download.php
> 
> Like the following?
> 
>   
Note "I didn't even know, that there were an ISO with non-free firmware."
And I'm 100% sure someone who wants to install Linux for the first time
won't even think about whether they need some special non-official image
to do that.

> However, given that no one reads the documentation today, but it relies
> on search engines, the first result in DuckDuckGo (and FWIW in Google as
> well) for "Debian Firmware" gives...
This implies someone will actually search for that before trying an
install and asking why there is no network.

-- 
WBR, wRAR


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Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[eamanu15 .]

I agree with this mail. It was difficult for me, find  the ISO download
(especially non-free installer)

El vie., 1 de dic. de 2017 a la(s) 18:15, Luca Capello 
escribió:

> Hi there,
>
> On Fri, 01 Dec 2017 14:39:12 +0100, W. Martin Borgert wrote:
> > Quoting Paul Wise :
> > > It would have been best for him to download the ISO with non-free
> > > firmware embedded, do you know how he made the decision to download
> > > the ISO without non-free firmware?
> >
> > Every time I need a Debian ISO, it takes me minutes to find it.
> > I didn't even know, that there were an ISO with non-free firmware.
> >
> > There should be a beautiful ISO download page, e.g.
> > https://www.debian.org/download[s]/
> > with all architectures and supported releases, similar to
> > https://www.ubuntu.com/download
> > or
> > https://linuxmint.com/download.php
>
> Like the following?
>
>   
>
> Which is 3-click away from the main page:
>
>   Release Info => 
>stable => 
> 2nd sentence => <
> https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/debian-installer/>
>
> Or do you prefer another pointer in our official documentation?
>
>   
>
> OK, you need to dig deeper to find this, 4-click away from the main
> page:
>
>   Installation manual => <
> https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/installmanual>
>Installation Guide for 64-bit PC (amd64) => <
> https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/>
> 2.2. Devices Requiring Firmware => <
> https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch02s02.html.en>
>
>  [4th sentence]
>
>  However, this does not mean that such hardware cannot be used
>  during an installation. Starting with Debian GNU/Linux 5.0,
>  debian-installer supports loading firmware files or packages
>  containing firmware from a removable medium, such as a USB
>  stick. See Section 6.4, “Loading Missing Firmware” for detailed
>  information on how to load firmware files or packages during the
>  installation.
>
>   6.4.1. Preparing a medium => <
> https://www.debian.org/releases/stable/amd64/ch06s04.html.en>
>
>   [6th sentence]
>
>   Official CD images do not include non-free firmware. The most
>   common method to load such firmware is from some removable medium
>   such as a USB stick. Alternatively, unofficial CD builds
>   containing non-free firmware can be found at
>
> http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/
> .
>
> However, given that no one reads the documentation today, but it relies
> on search engines, the first result in DuckDuckGo (and FWIW in Google as
> well) for "Debian Firmware" gives...
>
>   
>
> ...where the 3rd paragraph contains (copying it here for search
> engines):
>
>   Firmware during the installation
>
>   In some cases the installer detects the need for non-free firmware and
>   prompts the user to make the firmware available to the installer to
>   complete the installation. This can happen, for example, with wireless
>   network cards which often require non-free firmware to function (see
>   ipw2200 for an example).
>
>   A suggestion, especially while installation on hardware unfamiliar to
>   you, is to download the firmware archive for your platform and unpack
>   it into a directory named firmware in the root of a removable storage
>   device (USB/CD drive). When the installer starts, it will
>   automatically find the firmware files in the directory on the
>   removable storage and, if needed, install the firmware for your
>   hardware. You can find firmware downloads for your Debian version at
>   http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/firmware/.
>
>   In some cases, firmware supplied on removable media may not be
>   detected automatically (e.g. 740503). In these situations, drop to the
>   console and manually mount (see mount(8)) your removable storage on a
>   temporary directory (e.g. /media).
>
>   Alternatively, you can use one of the parallel installer image builds
>   that also include all the non-free firmware packages directly. We have
>   "netinst" CD images and also DVD installer images - see
>
> http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/
>
> Thx, bye,
> Gismo / Luca
>
-- 
Arias Emmanuel
https://www.linkedin.com/in/emmanuel-arias-437a6a8a
http://eamanu.com

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[eamanu15 .]

Hello everybody,

I started on the free software world 7 years ago. My first distro was
Debian. But in that time Debian was "complicate" for me. So, I change to
Ubuntu. I used to use them like a simple user.

A couple of month ago I decided to contribute to Free software, so I choose
Debian.

Now, with a little more experience with Linux-Based-OS like user, I feel
that Debian don't think about new user. I think that if we want to catch
more user, we have to make a more easily used OS. The First change (on my
point of view) is try to find the best order for the web-page. For me, was
a little complicate search the  non-free ISO installer (I was problem with
my WIFI device)

Regards!


El vie., 1 de dic. de 2017 a la(s) 21:34, Sven Hartge 
escribió:

> The Wanderer  wrote:
> > On 2017-12-01 at 16:44, Sven Hartge wrote:
> >> Luca Capello  wrote:
> >>> On Fri, 01 Dec 2017 14:59:53 -0500, James McCoy wrote:
>
>  People seem to be skipping over the fact that even after ntfs-3g
>  was installed, the user only had RO access.  That's the bigger
>  issue.
> >>
> >>> Exactly, which IIRC is the normal behavior if the NTFS filesystem
> >>> was not properly "closed", e.g. if Windows was hibernated (or it
> >>> uses the Fast Boot/Startup feature, thus suspend2both).
> >>
> >> Which is normal since at least Windows 7, maybe even Vista, to not
> >> shutdown completely, but only shutdown the applications and then
> >> hibernate the remaining Windows Kernel and memory to disk, leaving
> >> the filesystem unclean.
>
> > Are you sure?
>
> Not on the version specifics, to be honest.
>
> > I've been managing Windows 7 at my workplace for years now, and I've
> > never seen this "suspend in response to Shut Down" behavior there; the
> > first place I ever saw it was on a Windows 8 machine.  I'm not sure
> > I've yet seen it in our current Windows 10 pilot, either, but I also
> > haven't looked especially closely there.
>
> Maybe it happens only on Windows 7 on SSD? Or only in specific editions?
>
> But a quick web search reveals that Windows 8 was the first Windows to
> have "Fast Startup"/"Hybrid Shutdown" enabled per default and Windows 10
> has this feature enabled as well.
>
> I mostly deal, if I have to deal, with the server variant of Windows,
> which does not have this feature.
>
> But I have seen the NTFS-mount-only-as-RO problem on other peoples
> systems, when dual booting into Linux.
>
> S°
>
> --
> Sigmentation fault. Core dumped.
>
> --
Arias Emmanuel
https://www.linkedin.com/in/emmanuel-arias-437a6a8a
http://eamanu.com

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Sven Hartge]

The Wanderer  wrote:
> On 2017-12-01 at 16:44, Sven Hartge wrote:
>> Luca Capello  wrote:
>>> On Fri, 01 Dec 2017 14:59:53 -0500, James McCoy wrote:
 
 People seem to be skipping over the fact that even after ntfs-3g
 was installed, the user only had RO access.  That's the bigger
 issue.
>> 
>>> Exactly, which IIRC is the normal behavior if the NTFS filesystem
>>> was not properly "closed", e.g. if Windows was hibernated (or it
>>> uses the Fast Boot/Startup feature, thus suspend2both).
>> 
>> Which is normal since at least Windows 7, maybe even Vista, to not
>> shutdown completely, but only shutdown the applications and then
>> hibernate the remaining Windows Kernel and memory to disk, leaving
>> the filesystem unclean.

> Are you sure?

Not on the version specifics, to be honest.

> I've been managing Windows 7 at my workplace for years now, and I've
> never seen this "suspend in response to Shut Down" behavior there; the
> first place I ever saw it was on a Windows 8 machine.  I'm not sure
> I've yet seen it in our current Windows 10 pilot, either, but I also
> haven't looked especially closely there.

Maybe it happens only on Windows 7 on SSD? Or only in specific editions?

But a quick web search reveals that Windows 8 was the first Windows to
have "Fast Startup"/"Hybrid Shutdown" enabled per default and Windows 10
has this feature enabled as well.

I mostly deal, if I have to deal, with the server variant of Windows,
which does not have this feature.

But I have seen the NTFS-mount-only-as-RO problem on other peoples
systems, when dual booting into Linux.

S°

-- 
Sigmentation fault. Core dumped.

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[The Wanderer]

On 2017-12-01 at 16:44, Sven Hartge wrote:

> Luca Capello  wrote:
> 
>> On Fri, 01 Dec 2017 14:59:53 -0500, James McCoy wrote:
> 
>>> People seem to be skipping over the fact that even after ntfs-3g
>>> was installed, the user only had RO access.  That's the bigger
>>> issue.
> 
>> Exactly, which IIRC is the normal behavior if the NTFS filesystem
>> was not properly "closed", e.g. if Windows was hibernated (or it
>> uses the Fast Boot/Startup feature, thus suspend2both).
> 
> Which is normal since at least Windows 7, maybe even Vista, to not 
> shutdown completely, but only shutdown the applications and then 
> hibernate the remaining Windows Kernel and memory to disk, leaving
> the filesystem unclean.

Are you sure?

I've been managing Windows 7 at my workplace for years now, and I've
never seen this "suspend in response to Shut Down" behavior there; the
first place I ever saw it was on a Windows 8 machine.

I'm not sure I've yet seen it in our current Windows 10 pilot, either,
but I also haven't looked especially closely there.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



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Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Sven Hartge]

Luca Capello  wrote:
> On Fri, 01 Dec 2017 14:59:53 -0500, James McCoy wrote:

>> People seem to be skipping over the fact that even after ntfs-3g was
>> installed, the user only had RO access.  That's the bigger issue.

> Exactly, which IIRC is the normal behavior if the NTFS filesystem was
> not properly "closed", e.g. if Windows was hibernated (or it uses the
> Fast Boot/Startup feature, thus suspend2both).

Which is normal since at least Windows 7, maybe even Vista, to not
shutdown completely, but only shutdown the applications and then
hibernate the remaining Windows Kernel and memory to disk, leaving the
filesystem unclean.

S°

-- 
Sigmentation fault. Core dumped.

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[Luca Capello]

Hi there,

On Fri, 01 Dec 2017 14:39:12 +0100, W. Martin Borgert wrote:
> Quoting Paul Wise :
> > It would have been best for him to download the ISO with non-free
> > firmware embedded, do you know how he made the decision to download
> > the ISO without non-free firmware?
> 
> Every time I need a Debian ISO, it takes me minutes to find it.
> I didn't even know, that there were an ISO with non-free firmware.
> 
> There should be a beautiful ISO download page, e.g.
> https://www.debian.org/download[s]/
> with all architectures and supported releases, similar to
> https://www.ubuntu.com/download
> or
> https://linuxmint.com/download.php

Like the following?

  

Which is 3-click away from the main page:

  Release Info => 
   stable => 
2nd sentence => 

Or do you prefer another pointer in our official documentation?

  

OK, you need to dig deeper to find this, 4-click away from the main
page:

  Installation manual => 
   Installation Guide for 64-bit PC (amd64) => 

2.2. Devices Requiring Firmware => 


 [4th sentence]

 However, this does not mean that such hardware cannot be used
 during an installation. Starting with Debian GNU/Linux 5.0,
 debian-installer supports loading firmware files or packages
 containing firmware from a removable medium, such as a USB
 stick. See Section 6.4, “Loading Missing Firmware” for detailed
 information on how to load firmware files or packages during the
 installation. 

  6.4.1. Preparing a medium => 


  [6th sentence]

  Official CD images do not include non-free firmware. The most
  common method to load such firmware is from some removable medium
  such as a USB stick. Alternatively, unofficial CD builds
  containing non-free firmware can be found at
  
http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/.

However, given that no one reads the documentation today, but it relies
on search engines, the first result in DuckDuckGo (and FWIW in Google as
well) for "Debian Firmware" gives...

  

...where the 3rd paragraph contains (copying it here for search
engines):

  Firmware during the installation

  In some cases the installer detects the need for non-free firmware and
  prompts the user to make the firmware available to the installer to
  complete the installation. This can happen, for example, with wireless
  network cards which often require non-free firmware to function (see
  ipw2200 for an example).

  A suggestion, especially while installation on hardware unfamiliar to
  you, is to download the firmware archive for your platform and unpack
  it into a directory named firmware in the root of a removable storage
  device (USB/CD drive). When the installer starts, it will
  automatically find the firmware files in the directory on the
  removable storage and, if needed, install the firmware for your
  hardware. You can find firmware downloads for your Debian version at
  http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/firmware/.

  In some cases, firmware supplied on removable media may not be
  detected automatically (e.g. 740503). In these situations, drop to the
  console and manually mount (see mount(8)) your removable storage on a
  temporary directory (e.g. /media).

  Alternatively, you can use one of the parallel installer image builds
  that also include all the non-free firmware packages directly. We have
  "netinst" CD images and also DVD installer images - see
  http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/

Thx, bye,
Gismo / Luca


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Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Luca Capello]

Hi there,

On Fri, 01 Dec 2017 14:59:53 -0500, James McCoy wrote:
> People seem to be skipping over the fact that even after ntfs-3g was
> installed, the user only had RO access.  That's the bigger issue.

Exactly, which IIRC is the normal behavior if the NTFS filesystem was
not properly "closed", e.g. if Windows was hibernated (or it uses the
Fast Boot/Startup feature, thus suspend2both).

Thx, bye,
Gismo / Luca


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Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[James McCoy]

On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 12:23:14PM +0100, Michael Biebl wrote:
> Am 01.12.2017 um 07:34 schrieb Paul Wise:
> > On Fri, Dec 1, 2017 at 1:36 AM, Arturo Borrero Gonzalez wrote:
> >> * no support for RW on NTFS drives, only RO. This wasn't fixed even by
> >> installing ntfs-3g [0].
> >> I didn't have the time to investigate the NTFS issue myself, sorry :-(
> > 
> > Sounds like you need to get him to file a bug against ntfs-3g and
> > against whichever meta-package or other component should be installing
> > ntfs-3g. For the latter, perhaps gnome-software/PackageKit needs some
> > sort of filesystem detector that installs relevant packages. I was in
> > the same position recently with the Apple HFS+ filesystem.
> > 
> 
> udisks2 already recommends ntfs-3g. Most major desktops should use and
> install udisks2. Which desktop environment did your user install and did
> he maybe choose to not install recommends?

People seem to be skipping over the fact that even after ntfs-3g was
installed, the user only had RO access.  That's the bigger issue.

Cheers,
-- 
James
GPG Key: 4096R/91BF BF4D 6956 BD5D F7B7  2D23 DFE6 91AE 331B A3DB

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[Adam Borowski]

On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 07:08:07PM +0100, W. Martin Borgert wrote:
> > > > Of course, the stable amd64 netinst is useful only for VMs.
> > > 
> > > Why?
> > It doesn't contain non-free firmware.
> 
> OK, but that's an exaggeration. More often than not I was
> able to install Debian without non-free firmware. But YMMV.

Install: usually yes.

Have working Wifi: no way (100% non-free firmware required on x86 in my
personal experience).

Have working wired networking: usually but not guaranteed (yay fetching
firmware without network).

CPU crashes and data loss: see microcode in Ian's thread.

Working display: I had to replace a graphics card because nouveau crashed
once an hour while proprietary was stable; on current one nouveau works ok.

And so on, so on.


Meow!
-- 
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ Mozilla's Hippocritic Oath: "Keep trackers off your trail"
⣾⠁⢰⠒⠀⣿⡁ blah blah evading "tracking technology" blah blah
⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋⠀ "https://click.e.mozilla.org/?qs=e7bb0dcf14b1013fca3820...;
⠈⠳⣄ (same for all links)

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Andrey Rahmatullin]

On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 12:02:45PM -0600, Gunnar Wolf wrote:
> Look over the fence. How long did it
> take for Windows XP to disappear? Before that, how long was Windows 98
> king? How many users still cling to Windows 7? They don't need the
> newest, shiniest software. They want something stable that works,
Umm.
Over the fence you can install most of the newest, shiniest software on a
8 year old OS.

-- 
WBR, wRAR


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Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[Arturo Borrero Gonzalez]

On 1 December 2017 at 14:39, W. Martin Borgert  wrote:
> Quoting Paul Wise :
>>
>> It would have been best for him to download the ISO with non-free
>> firmware embedded, do you know how he made the decision to download
>> the ISO without non-free firmware?
>
>
> Every time I need a Debian ISO, it takes me minutes to find it.
> I didn't even know, that there were an ISO with non-free firmware.
>
> There should be a beautiful ISO download page, e.g.
> https://www.debian.org/download[s]/
> with all architectures and supported releases, similar to
> https://www.ubuntu.com/download
> or
> https://linuxmint.com/download.php

I couldn't agree more.

You all know the big amount of combinations we have:

suite - arch - ISO size/flavour - freeness

suite: stable , testing, whatever
arch: amd64, i386, arm, mips, whatever
size/flavour: DVD, CD-ROM, USB, netinst, whatever
freeness: including or not non-free, whatever

There doesn't seem to be a single page to find all these links.

And that should be easy to fix by anyone with the time, knowledge and
the will to do so.

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[W. Martin Borgert]

Quoting Andrey Rahmatullin :

On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 05:10:37PM +0100, W. Martin Borgert wrote:

> Currently the stable amd64 netinst is linked from the front page (top
> right corner).

It is, indeed. Never saw it before...

It's a relatively recent improvement.


Well, I hadn't seen it, without you pointing me to it.


> Of course, the stable amd64 netinst is useful only for VMs.

Why?

It doesn't contain non-free firmware.


OK, but that's an exaggeration. More often than not I was
able to install Debian without non-free firmware. But YMMV.

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[Gunnar Wolf]

W. Martin Borgert dijo [Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 02:39:12PM +0100]:
> Every time I need a Debian ISO, it takes me minutes to find it.
> I didn't even know, that there were an ISO with non-free firmware.
> 
> There should be a beautiful ISO download page, e.g.
> https://www.debian.org/download[s]/
> with all architectures and supported releases, similar to
> https://www.ubuntu.com/download
> or
> https://linuxmint.com/download.php
> 
> Who likes to the hero of the day? :~)

http://get.debian.org

Might not be beautiful, but it has the needed information, clearly
spelt out.

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Gunnar Wolf]

Arturo Borrero Gonzalez dijo [Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 01:15:04PM +0100]:
> >> It would have been best for him to download the ISO with non-free
> >> firmware embedded, do you know how he made the decision to download
> >> the ISO without non-free firmware?
> 
> What others say is true. It's not easy to find the download link, even
> for me as DD.
> 
> But this is something that we have already detected: our main website
> needs work.
> We just need someone doing the work.

Yes, but... this is an issue often brought up and discussed since I am
aware of, that is, for over 15 years. It's _hard_ work to properly
structure a web site as information-rich as ours, with as many
different user types as its targets. Even more, with moving targets,
as Web design styles rise and fade continuously.

And I am _not_ implying that not enough work has been done; the Debian
website has vastly improved since I know it. But properly organizing
it is something... VERY hard to get right.

> > udisks2 already recommends ntfs-3g. Most major desktops should use and
> > install udisks2. Which desktop environment did your user install and did
> > he maybe choose to not install recommends?
> 
> I don't really know, I would say gnome.
> We would have to check every desktop stack and review how things are
> for both NTFS and HFS+.

I think GNOME is a safe bet, as it is the "most defaultest" of all
desktops (even given "there is no default" ☺)

> Other thing is the branding topic. I would like to promote usage of
> Debian testing for standard desktop/laptop users in personal
> environments (not for business machines)
> but the 'testing' word scares people. I don't have a valid candidate :-(
> 
> But we should really point to stable to specific users rather than all
> by default.

This is something that does not seem to draw consensus. I am of the
opposite camp. Regular users should have stable, as they don't want
huge updates or regularly broken systems, missing pieces and so on. A
regular user should be fine with upgrading their desktop every two
years, if anything! I mean... Look over the fence. How long did it
take for Windows XP to disappear? Before that, how long was Windows 98
king? How many users still cling to Windows 7? They don't need the
newest, shiniest software. They want something stable that works, and
that _they know_ how to make work. The same should be valid for most
users over here.

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Roberto C . Sánchez]

On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 05:31:09PM +0100, Alf Gaida wrote:
> >
> Ian, thats dead easy - put the needed packages onto the iso and be done
> with. The installer should have an option to opt-in contrib and/or
> non-free. Done. Ok, that was the technical part.

Which has the potential to make the installer non-distributable or not
freely redistributable the same way as free packages.  Even if the
Debian project obtained the necessary permission/license to
redistributed, it would certainly have restrictions and I suspect it
would not likely be something that would autoatically transfer to other
entities (think users copying/sharing installers or derivative
distributions).

The situation is more complex than your characterization.

Regards,

-Roberto

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Ian Jackson]

Alf Gaida writes ("Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)"):
> On 01.12.2017 16:53, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > FAOD I agree that the current situation with install images for random
> > PCs is quite unsatisfactory, but I don't know how to square the circle.
>
> Ian, thats dead easy - put the needed packages onto the iso and be done
> with.

The problem is not technical, it is political/ethical/whatever.

And, contrary to the suggestions in your mail, the reason we don't
just do as you say is not because the FSF wouldn't like it.  It's
because the Debian Project itself is very uncomfortable with non-free
firmware.

OTOH, it might be worth revisiting this issue in a GR.

Ian.

-- 
Ian Jackson <ijack...@chiark.greenend.org.uk>   These opinions are my own.

If I emailed you from an address @fyvzl.net or @evade.org.uk, that is
a private address which bypasses my fierce spamfilter.

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Alf Gaida]

On 01.12.2017 16:53, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Simon McVittie writes ("Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)"):
>> I find it interesting that we're having this conversation at the same
>> time as a thread about how there should be a configuration option that
>> denies our users the opportunity to choose to install non-free software.
> Perhaps you mean: a configuration option that allows a user not to be
> nagged to install non-free software.
>
> FAOD I agree that the current situation with install images for random
> PCs is quite unsatisfactory, but I don't know how to square the circle.
>
> Ian.
>
Ian, thats dead easy - put the needed packages onto the iso and be done
with. The installer should have an option to opt-in contrib and/or
non-free. Done. Ok, that was the technical part. The other part of the
story would be that the FSF wouldn't like us for that step. Anyways,
they don't recommend Debian because debian make it still to easy for
users to install non-free stuff, so i think this would be no real
probelm. Bradley M. would be upset too - and some other people who think
that every debian user need to be educated that one has to buy hardware
that would work without non-free things. The majority of the users would
be happy. Hmm, but there would be still the catch 22 with the social
contract and the free software guidelines. What do we weight more: Happy
users or free software? The FSF has answered this before - Debian is not
free, so they don't recommend us. Their choice. We choose to promote and
deliver iso's without any non-free. Our choice. And for the people with
the needed knowledge there are iso's that will work well with nearly all
hardware. Sounds fair, doesn't it?

The result will be: Normal users will use fedora, ubuntu etc - these
distributions that are proven to work otb with the most hardware in the
wild and are recommended by their friends who tested them before. Debian
will be limited to users who prefer free software or have the knowledge
to work around these limitations. Or are able to find the working isos
with non-free. To me it not sound like the best service for our users
_and_ free software. Free software is a learning process and my guess is
that this process will not start for a lot of people if they can't
install a working Debian firsthand. It might be that i see this to
simplified.

My 2¢

Alf

Re: ISO download difficult (was: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint))

[Filippo Rusconi]

On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 05:10:37PM +0100, W. Martin Borgert wrote:

Quoting Andrey Rahmatullin :


Of course, the stable amd64 netinst is useful only for VMs.


Why?


I suspect that this means that this image is useful to install a guest machine
in a virtualized environment.  Maybe because indeed it does not need specific
non-free drivers or binary blobs since related aspects are dealt with by the
host machine ?

Just a guess :-)

Filippo

--
⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Filippo Rusconi, PhD   
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⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋
⠈⠳⣄ 

Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Andrey Rahmatullin]

On Fri, Dec 01, 2017 at 03:34:04PM +, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> 
> 
> On December 1, 2017 7:15:04 AM EST, Arturo Borrero Gonzalez 
>  wrote:
> ...
> >Other thing is the branding topic. I would like to promote usage of
> >Debian testing for standard desktop/laptop users in personal
> >environments (not for business machines)
> >but the 'testing' word scares people. I don't have a valid candidate
> >:-(
> >
> >But we should really point to stable to specific users rather than all
> >by default.
> ...
> 
> Testing doesn't have security support (and since neither the security team 
> nor maintainers can upload to it, it's the most problematic choice from a 
> security support perspective).  I don't think that's suitable to recommend to 
> end users of any sort.
ALso AFAIK when packages are temporarily removed from testing for various
reasons that may break the user systems (or, at least, make their
experience worse when they want to install something). At least I've seen
a position of "testing is not for users but to help us make stable",
correct me if I'm wrong.

-- 
WBR, wRAR


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Re: Debian Stretch new user report (vs Linux Mint)

[Philipp Kern]

On 01.12.2017 16:34, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> Testing doesn't have security support (and since neither the security team 
> nor maintainers can upload to it, it's the most problematic choice from a 
> security support perspective).  I don't think that's suitable to recommend to 
> end users of any sort.

I mean that's not really true. Both can upload to it, it just needs to
be accepted manually. They generally don't do it, though. So whenever a
DSA is published you don't necessarily get an update right away. Many
advisories don't talk about unstable either and the maintainer might not
even be aware of the security issue[0]. It feels like at some point this
needs to be addressed in some way by the project, though.

(I know. We're all volunteers and all. But at the same time we try to
assemble something useful in the form of testing and by some extension
also unstable.)

Kind regards
Philipp Kern

[0] I hope that's actually wrong but I wouldn't be surprised if the
maintainer is not contacted in the most severe instances.