Accepted gnu-efi 3.0u+debian-4 (source amd64)

2014-03-31 Thread Daniel Baumann
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Format: 1.8
Date: Mon, 31 Mar 2014 19:56:19 +0200
Source: gnu-efi
Binary: gnu-efi
Architecture: source amd64
Version: 3.0u+debian-4
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: low
Maintainer: Daniel Baumann m...@daniel-baumann.ch
Changed-By: Daniel Baumann m...@daniel-baumann.ch
Description: 
 gnu-efi- Library for developing EFI applications
Changes: 
 gnu-efi (3.0u+debian-4) unstable; urgency=low
 .
   * Updating to standards version 3.9.5.
   * Building with dh --parallel.
Checksums-Sha1: 
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gnu-efi_3.0u+debian-4.debian.tar.xz
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gnu-efi_3.0u+debian-4_amd64.deb
Files: 
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 317a1c481a5a610425c7d4758b18cfae 5280 devel optional 
gnu-efi_3.0u+debian-4.debian.tar.xz
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gnu-efi_3.0u+debian-4_amd64.deb

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Accepted gnu-efi 3.0u+debian-3 (source i386)

2013-10-17 Thread Daniel Baumann
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Format: 1.8
Date: Thu, 17 Oct 2013 10:06:18 +0200
Source: gnu-efi
Binary: gnu-efi
Architecture: source i386
Version: 3.0u+debian-3
Distribution: experimental
Urgency: low
Maintainer: Daniel Baumann m...@daniel-baumann.ch
Changed-By: Daniel Baumann m...@daniel-baumann.ch
Description: 
 gnu-efi- Library for developing EFI applications
Changes: 
 gnu-efi (3.0u+debian-3) experimental; urgency=low
 .
   * Updating vcs fields.
Checksums-Sha1: 
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gnu-efi_3.0u+debian-3.debian.tar.xz
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Checksums-Sha256: 
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 c8a6801fa0ac5b4dcda4aabaac94a5b8 5220 devel optional 
gnu-efi_3.0u+debian-3.debian.tar.xz
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Accepted gnu-efi 3.0u+debian-2 (source i386)

2013-07-17 Thread Daniel Baumann
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Format: 1.8
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2013 10:34:32 +0200
Source: gnu-efi
Binary: gnu-efi
Architecture: source i386
Version: 3.0u+debian-2
Distribution: experimental
Urgency: low
Maintainer: Daniel Baumann m...@daniel-baumann.ch
Changed-By: Daniel Baumann m...@daniel-baumann.ch
Description: 
 gnu-efi- Library for developing EFI applications
Changes: 
 gnu-efi (3.0u+debian-2) experimental; urgency=low
 .
   [ Daniel Baumann ]
   * Adding vcs fields.
 .
   [ Steve Langasek ]
   * Passing architecture arguments when building the x86_64 code on i386;
 otherwise the upstream build system wrongly assumes that if uname says
 x86_64, it doesn't have to pass -m64 to the compiler.
 .
   [ Daniel Baumann ]
   * Wrapping control fields.
Checksums-Sha1: 
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Files: 
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gnu-efi_3.0u+debian-2.debian.tar.xz
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Accepted gnu-efi 3.0u+debian-1 (source i386)

2013-06-18 Thread Daniel Baumann
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Format: 1.8
Date: Tue, 18 Jun 2013 10:38:29 +0200
Source: gnu-efi
Binary: gnu-efi
Architecture: source i386
Version: 3.0u+debian-1
Distribution: experimental
Urgency: low
Maintainer: Daniel Baumann m...@daniel-baumann.ch
Changed-By: Daniel Baumann m...@daniel-baumann.ch
Description: 
 gnu-efi- Library for developing EFI applications
Closes: 712639
Changes: 
 gnu-efi (3.0u+debian-1) experimental; urgency=low
 .
   * Merging upstream version 3.0u+debian (Closes: #712639).
   * Dropping no-stack-protector.patch, included upstream.
Checksums-Sha1: 
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Checksums-Sha256: 
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Files: 
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gnu-efi_3.0u+debian-1.debian.tar.xz
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gnu-efi_3.0u+debian-1_i386.deb

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Accepted gnu-efi 3.0t+debian-2 (source i386)

2013-06-09 Thread Daniel Baumann
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Format: 1.8
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 2013 10:04:12 +0200
Source: gnu-efi
Binary: gnu-efi
Architecture: source i386
Version: 3.0t+debian-2
Distribution: experimental
Urgency: low
Maintainer: Daniel Baumann m...@daniel-baumann.ch
Changed-By: Daniel Baumann m...@daniel-baumann.ch
Description: 
 gnu-efi- Library for developing EFI applications
Changes: 
 gnu-efi (3.0t+debian-2) experimental; urgency=low
 .
   * Dropping suggests on elilo.
Checksums-Sha1: 
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Checksums-Sha256: 
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Files: 
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gnu-efi_3.0t+debian-2.debian.tar.xz
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Accepted gnu-efi 3.0t+debian-1 (source i386)

2013-03-13 Thread Daniel Baumann
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Format: 1.8
Date: Wed, 13 Mar 2013 18:22:37 +0100
Source: gnu-efi
Binary: gnu-efi
Architecture: source i386
Version: 3.0t+debian-1
Distribution: experimental
Urgency: low
Maintainer: Daniel Baumann m...@daniel-baumann.ch
Changed-By: Daniel Baumann m...@daniel-baumann.ch
Description: 
 gnu-efi- Library for developing EFI applications
Changes: 
 gnu-efi (3.0t+debian-1) experimental; urgency=low
 .
   * Merging upstream version 3.0t+debian.
   * Updating year in copyright file.
   * Refreshing no-stack-protector.patch.
Checksums-Sha1: 
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Files: 
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gnu-efi_3.0t+debian-1.debian.tar.xz
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Accepted gnu-efi 3.0s+debian-3 (source i386)

2013-03-10 Thread Daniel Baumann
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Format: 1.8
Date: Sun, 10 Mar 2013 20:46:34 +0100
Source: gnu-efi
Binary: gnu-efi
Architecture: source i386
Version: 3.0s+debian-3
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: low
Maintainer: Daniel Baumann m...@daniel-baumann.ch
Changed-By: Daniel Baumann m...@daniel-baumann.ch
Description: 
 gnu-efi- Library for developing EFI applications
Changes: 
 gnu-efi (3.0s+debian-3) unstable; urgency=low
 .
   * Removing all references to my old email address.
Checksums-Sha1: 
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Files: 
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Accepted gnu-efi 3.0s+debian-2 (source i386)

2013-02-20 Thread Daniel Baumann
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Format: 1.8
Date: Wed, 20 Feb 2013 16:41:16 +0100
Source: gnu-efi
Binary: gnu-efi
Architecture: source i386
Version: 3.0s+debian-2
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: low
Maintainer: Daniel Baumann daniel.baum...@progress-technologies.net
Changed-By: Daniel Baumann daniel.baum...@progress-technologies.net
Description: 
 gnu-efi- Library for developing EFI applications
Changes: 
 gnu-efi (3.0s+debian-2) unstable; urgency=low
 .
   * Adding no-stack-protector.patch from Colin Watson
 cjwat...@ubuntu.com to make other packages being able to link
 against gnu-efi.
   * Dropping dpkg-source compression levels.
   * Adding dpkg-source local-options.
Checksums-Sha1: 
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Files: 
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Accepted gnu-efi 3.0s+debian-1 (source i386)

2012-12-10 Thread Daniel Baumann
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Format: 1.8
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2012 07:19:59 +0100
Source: gnu-efi
Binary: gnu-efi
Architecture: source i386
Version: 3.0s+debian-1
Distribution: unstable
Urgency: low
Maintainer: Daniel Baumann daniel.baum...@progress-technologies.net
Changed-By: Daniel Baumann daniel.baum...@progress-technologies.net
Description: 
 gnu-efi- Library for developing EFI applications
Changes: 
 gnu-efi (3.0s+debian-1) unstable; urgency=low
 .
   * Merging upstream version 3.0s+debian.
Checksums-Sha1: 
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Accepted gnu-efi 3.0r+debian-1 (source i386)

2012-09-25 Thread Daniel Baumann
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Format: 1.8
Date: Tue, 25 Sep 2012 09:07:00 +0200
Source: gnu-efi
Binary: gnu-efi
Architecture: source i386
Version: 3.0r+debian-1
Distribution: experimental
Urgency: low
Maintainer: Daniel Baumann daniel.baum...@progress-technologies.net
Changed-By: Daniel Baumann daniel.baum...@progress-technologies.net
Description: 
 gnu-efi- Library for developing EFI applications
Closes: 637276 679627
Changes: 
 gnu-efi (3.0r+debian-1) experimental; urgency=low
 .
   * Merging upstream version 3.0r+debian (Closes: #637276, #679627):
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Re: EFI in Debian

2012-07-17 Thread Mark Brown
On Sun, Jul 08, 2012 at 07:30:48PM -0400, Ted Ts'o wrote:

 So in answer to your question, there are plenty of Android devices
 which are trivially unlockable.  (And once a Nexus phone is unlocked,
 it's you can get a root shell trivially; no jail-breaking necessary.
 Of course this is true for an attacker/thief who has managed to steal
 your phone, but if you want to unlock the phone, it's easily doable on
 many Android devices.)

Note that the unlock process wipes the data on the phone which does
provide some security here.


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Re: EFI in Debian

2012-07-10 Thread Thomas Preud'homme
Le lundi 2 juillet 2012 18:42:13, Steve McIntyre a écrit :
 Hey folks,
 
 As you might have seen from recent discussions about the Fedora and
 Ubuntu strategies for how to deal with EFI and Secure Boot, there are
 potentially major issues in the area. In Debian we don't (yet) have a
 plan, so it's high time that we had some discussion. I've set up a BoF
 at DebConf for this:
 
 https://penta.debconf.org/penta/schedule/dc12/event/925.en.html
 
 That's Monday 9th July, 15:00 local time (21:00 UTC).

Sorry for my naive questions but I want to be sure I understand the goal 
behind secure boot correctly. I'm not talking about Microsoft here but as 
stated by Bdale yesterday there is many people who see a value in secure boot 
to protect their system. Please correct any mistake I do in my reasonning and 
if I'm plain wrong just ignore my email or send me a notice on IRC or private 
email. Suggestions for the implementation are after the questions.

What I'd really like to understand is why is protecting the boot so important 
for these people? Secure boot is designed to prevent booting code anywhere in 
the boot sequence which is infected by a malware. But if such an infection 
happens, it means a flaws in the system was used during the last run. It should 
normally not be possible to modify any of the code in the boot sequence 
without appropriate privilege.

When the flaws was exploited, then the attacker had sufficient access to change 
e.g. EFI and could thus have done whatever nasty things he wanted on the 
system. And as long as the system is not rebooted, nothing can prevent it to 
do so.

From this, I came to the conclusion that secure boot only provides additional 
security when the administrator discover the flaws, either via a 
CVE/DSA/whatever announce, or because he realized the system is having a 
strange behavior (ex: something suspicious in the logs). Then, he will try to 
patch the flaw by upgrading its kernel and want to be sure at reboot that the 
malware didn't manage to infect the patched kernel in the mean time. In other 
words, the administrator want to be sure at reboot that the problem is solved 
(at least for this flaw, there could be other flaws of course but they need to 
be found).

If I understood all this correctly and that my conclusions are correct then I 
believe there could be an interest the secure boot functionality. Don't get me 
wrong, I'm really concerned about all the side effect of this technology with 
regards to locked down systems. There is an important need to both be able to 
disable secure boot and to be able to change and add main/CA keys. But there 
is nothing we can do technically about this.

 Implementation 

So the first question is wether we play secure boot or not. I believe that by 
playing it we don't remove anything to the users. No matter we play it or not, 
they will not be free to install whatever software they want as long as secure 
boot is activated (and this become a forever on ARM systems with windows 
certified logo). But by providing a signed image of Debian we provide at least 
a bit more security for people with secure boot enabled.

Second question is with what key to sign Debian image and our bootloader. 
Should we use Microsoft key or use our own key and ask the users who wants to 
benefit from secure boot to install the Debian key. I personnally don't like 
the idea of using the key of Microsoft as we give them a switch to prevent 
Debian systems from being booted. On the other hand, I don't know if it will 
be easy to install new CA keys.

At last, there is the question of what to sign. If we want secure boot to be 
really useful then we should sign all the way from the bootloader to the 
kernel modules.

Thoughts about this?

Best regards.


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Re: EFI in Debian

2012-07-10 Thread Russell Coker
On Tue, 10 Jul 2012, Thomas Preud'homme robo...@celest.fr wrote:
 When the flaws was exploited, then the attacker had sufficient access to
 change e.g. EFI and could thus have done whatever nasty things he wanted
 on the system. And as long as the system is not rebooted, nothing can
 prevent it to do so.

http://etbe.coker.com.au/2011/12/28/secure-boot-protecting-against-root/

I've written a blog post about some of the issues related to secure boot at 
the above URL.  Some of the problems include the fact that workstations have a 
lot of uptime nowadays (so a machine that has a trojan in RAM is likely to 
stay that way for a while) and that an attack which is performed once can be 
performed on every boot.

http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/play.html

Also in that post I address the apparently common misconception that secure 
boot makes it impossible for a remote root user to damage the system.  As 
an aside I have a Wheezy based SE Linux Play Machine online right now, it 
demonstrates root as an account that can't damage the system - but that 
root account also can't be used for system administration...

 From this, I came to the conclusion that secure boot only provides
 additional security when the administrator discover the flaws, either via
 a
 CVE/DSA/whatever announce, or because he realized the system is having a
 strange behavior (ex: something suspicious in the logs). Then, he will try
 to patch the flaw by upgrading its kernel and want to be sure at reboot
 that the malware didn't manage to infect the patched kernel in the mean
 time. In other words, the administrator want to be sure at reboot that the
 problem is solved (at least for this flaw, there could be other flaws of
 course but they need to be found).

The problem with that is the wide variety of ways that the system is 
configured.  We would need some way to verify, inspect, or revert every change 
to a security sensitive config file to restore a compromised system.  Signing 
every config file isn't viable as you can't sign it locally (and taking every 
changed config file from a disconnected system is a PITA).  Inspection isn't 
good as even competent sysadmins will have a hard time recognising every 
potential mistake in a config file.

Reverting changes (IE wiping /etc on upgrade) is unpleasant, but maybe we 
could have a patch management system to treat all changes to /etc as patches.  
This might be viable.

 At last, there is the question of what to sign. If we want secure boot to
 be really useful then we should sign all the way from the bootloader to
 the kernel modules.

No.  The easiest way of doing that properly would be to have a filesystem that 
includes signing and not allow high integrity processes (either processes with 
a high integrity label according to Biba or a system domain in SE Linux) to 
read files that weren't signed.

The harder way of doing that would be to have the system dynamic loader, every 
interpreter (the shell, Perl, etc), and every important process that reads a 
config file (IE most daemons) check signatures on all files.

There's really not much benefit in having a signed kernel and modules if you 
can have a trojan loaded from /root/.bashrc !

-- 
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My Documents Bloghttp://doc.coker.com.au/


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Re: EFI in Debian

2012-07-10 Thread Thomas Preud'homme
Le mardi 10 juillet 2012 13:08:57, Russell Coker a écrit :
 On Tue, 10 Jul 2012, Thomas Preud'homme robo...@celest.fr wrote:
  When the flaws was exploited, then the attacker had sufficient access to
  change e.g. EFI and could thus have done whatever nasty things he wanted
  on the system. And as long as the system is not rebooted, nothing can
  prevent it to do so.
 
 http://etbe.coker.com.au/2011/12/28/secure-boot-protecting-against-root/
 
 I've written a blog post about some of the issues related to secure boot at
 the above URL.  Some of the problems include the fact that workstations
 have a lot of uptime nowadays (so a machine that has a trojan in RAM is
 likely to stay that way for a while) and that an attack which is performed
 once can be performed on every boot.
 
 http://www.coker.com.au/selinux/play.html

Ah yeah, I read that blog post. I like your blog by the way. Anyway, I had the 
exact same impression. That's why I came to the conclusion it's only useful 
after fixing a flaw in order to be sure the problem is fixed on next reboot. 
But 
for machine which never reboot it's indeed useless.

 
 Also in that post I address the apparently common misconception that
 secure boot makes it impossible for a remote root user to damage the
 system.  As an aside I have a Wheezy based SE Linux Play Machine online
 right now, it demonstrates root as an account that can't damage the
 system - but that root account also can't be used for system
 administration...

Of course, if you are root you can do whatever you want. That's the definition 
of root.

 
 The problem with that is the wide variety of ways that the system is
 configured.  We would need some way to verify, inspect, or revert every
 change to a security sensitive config file to restore a compromised
 system.  Signing every config file isn't viable as you can't sign it
 locally (and taking every changed config file from a disconnected system
 is a PITA).  Inspection isn't good as even competent sysadmins will have a
 hard time recognising every potential mistake in a config file.
 
 Reverting changes (IE wiping /etc on upgrade) is unpleasant, but maybe we
 could have a patch management system to treat all changes to /etc as
 patches. This might be viable.

Mmmmh, indeed I didn't think about all these important files. But then, if not 
everything is signed it reduce the number of ways an exploit can survive 
accross fix+reboot to files. Yes, it's still a large surface. Actually if you 
go 
down that road you'd need to sign everything you use. No matter that the 
kernel, bootloader and firmware are intact if your webserver is infected and 
giving access to important files of your system for example. The problem is 
that it becomes very hard to implement for a rather small benefit (IMHO).

 
  At last, there is the question of what to sign. If we want secure boot to
  be really useful then we should sign all the way from the bootloader to
  the kernel modules.
 
 No.  The easiest way of doing that properly would be to have a filesystem
 that includes signing and not allow high integrity processes (either
 processes with a high integrity label according to Biba or a system domain
 in SE Linux) to read files that weren't signed.
 
 The harder way of doing that would be to have the system dynamic loader,
 every interpreter (the shell, Perl, etc), and every important process that
 reads a config file (IE most daemons) check signatures on all files.
 
 There's really not much benefit in having a signed kernel and modules if
 you can have a trojan loaded from /root/.bashrc !

Yes, true. That's what in the end everything you care about should be signed. 
But I don't think it's doable. So either we don't do secure boot at all 
(benefit is it requires no additional work), or we do secure boot on part of 
the system which guarantee that when this part of the system is upgraded to fix 
a flaws, it will only be booted if it was not compromised before the fix. Sort 
of it provides a way of knowing cryptographically if part of the system was 
infected or not.

Best regards.


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Re: EFI in Debian

2012-07-09 Thread Matthew Garrett
In article 20120708235244.gb24...@thunk.org  Ted Ts'o wrote:
 Matthew Garret believes that this is a requirement; however, there is
 no documented paper trail indicating that this is actually necessary.
 There are those who believe that Microsoft wouldn't dare revoke a
 Linux key because of the antitrust issues that would arise.

Hey, it's hardly my fault that nobody else bothered turning up to the
well-advertised events where this got discussed...

 This would especially true if the bootloader displayed a spash screen
 with a huge penguin on it, and the user was obliged to hit a key
 acknowledging the spash screen before the boot was allowed to
 continue.  James is working on a signed bootloader which would do
 this.

Well, sure, we could associate Large picture of a penguin on your boot
screen with your machine has been hacked, but I'm not convinced that's
a great strategy.

-- 
Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org


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Re: EFI in Debian

2012-07-09 Thread Ted Ts'o
On Mon, Jul 09, 2012 at 04:48:38PM +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
 In article 20120708235244.gb24...@thunk.org  Ted Ts'o wrote:
  Matthew Garret believes that this is a requirement; however, there is
  no documented paper trail indicating that this is actually necessary.
  There are those who believe that Microsoft wouldn't dare revoke a
  Linux key because of the antitrust issues that would arise.
 
 Hey, it's hardly my fault that nobody else bothered turning up to the
 well-advertised events where this got discussed...

If it's documented on paper, it didn't happen.  :-)

Discussions in smoke-filled rooms, even if they are well-advertised,
don't really impress me  (This isn't your fault, but Microsoft's.)

- Ted


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Re: EFI in Debian

2012-07-09 Thread Matthew Garrett
On Mon, Jul 09, 2012 at 12:26:49PM -0400, Ted Ts'o wrote:
 On Mon, Jul 09, 2012 at 04:48:38PM +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
  Hey, it's hardly my fault that nobody else bothered turning up to the
  well-advertised events where this got discussed...
 
 If it's documented on paper, it didn't happen.  :-)
 
 Discussions in smoke-filled rooms, even if they are well-advertised,
 don't really impress me  (This isn't your fault, but Microsoft's.)

I look forward to the LF's discussion of this being made public, then.

-- 
Matthew Garrett | mj...@srcf.ucam.org


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Re: EFI in Debian

2012-07-08 Thread Wookey
+++ Steve Langasek [2012-07-07 15:58 -0600]:
 On Sat, Jul 07, 2012 at 11:09:57PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:
   * Steve Langasek (vor...@debian.org) [120707 22:54]:
   On Fri, Jul 06, 2012 at 10:14:01AM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
If OTOH we have to pay a fee just for our software to work on platforms
that just happen to be using Microsoft’s certificate, this is clearly
abusive.  I would object to do so, and I believe we would (at least in
Europe) have a very strong case in court against such practice.
 
   Note that the Windows 8 requirements stipulate that users must in all 
   cases
   retain the ability to disable Secure Boot on their x86 systems from the
   firmware.  It's really a question of ease of installation, and whether
   Secure Boot provides any additional security protection that we think it's
   worth providing to Debian users out of the box.
 
  IIRC it's not the same on embedded hardware.
 
 The distinction is between x86 and ARM, and the Windows 8 cert requirements
 for ARM appear to have as their goal to prevent any other OS to be bootable
 on that hardware.

Which is pretty outrageous IMHO and may well become a serious problem
once PC-like ARM hardware becomes widely available (laptops and
capable tablets). It is very disappointing that once they agreed to
free-up x86 everyone said, 'oh that's alright then', failing to
appreciate that ARM hardware will (likely) be just as ubiquitous as
x86 quite soon. Hopefully enough people will produce hardware that
isn't crippled in this way, but if Windows 8 is a popular platform one
may get a greatly restricited choice. 

Will Android machines make secure boot turn-offable or another key
installable, or will thay follow the Microsoft lead and lock
everything down too?

A competition case is much harder to bring here because Windows has
almost zero share on ARM and can use that as an excuse. Of course, as
we know in Debian architecture is really irrelevant to the question of
'is this OS dominant and using its dominance in one area to restrict
competition in another'? This makes the ARM/x86 distinction in the
rules a devious scheme to reduce competition, which seems to be
working so far (and in our case prevent us using such computers
usefully at all). 

In an ideal world the fact that can't unlock your device and install
another OS will be seen as a consumer disadvantage and reduce the
supply of hardware with no ability to install alternate keys, but that
seems an unlikely outcome, as most people don't care, or won't until
it's too late. 

I'm not sure what we can actually do about this technically.
Approximately nothing, except look for ways to hack the secure boot
mechanism on interesting hardware. 

I can't recall if the rules for arm actually prevent the bootloader
allowing the loading of other keys, or just prevent turning off secure
boot. I think the latter, but as there is no requirement for this
feature it may be rare in practice. By making this easily available in
UEFI I suppose that may encourage manufacturers to enable it.

 So I don't think you should expect MS to sign any UEFI
 ARM bootloader binaries at all.

Quite.

Wookey
-- 
Principal hats:  Linaro, Emdebian, Wookware, Balloonboard, ARM
http://wookware.org/


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Re: EFI in Debian

2012-07-08 Thread Russell Coker
On Sun, 8 Jul 2012, Wookey woo...@wookware.org wrote:
  The distinction is between x86 and ARM, and the Windows 8 cert
  requirements for ARM appear to have as their goal to prevent any other
  OS to be bootable on that hardware.
 
 Which is pretty outrageous IMHO and may well become a serious problem
 once PC-like ARM hardware becomes widely available (laptops and
 capable tablets). It is very disappointing that once they agreed to
 free-up x86 everyone said, 'oh that's alright then', failing to
 appreciate that ARM hardware will (likely) be just as ubiquitous as
 x86 quite soon. Hopefully enough people will produce hardware that
 isn't crippled in this way, but if Windows 8 is a popular platform one
 may get a greatly restricited choice. 

I expect that by most metrics Android phones outsell PCs nowadays (largely 
because phone contracts encourage replacement every 2 years and some portion 
of the phones break before then).  A significant portion of the Android phones 
sold are locked down such that you can't change which version of the kernel 
you run and can't get root access in any reasonable manner.

The iPhone has a comparable market volume to Android phones and is uniformly 
locked down.

In terms of making ARM systems less free it doesn't seem to me that the MS 
initiative in this regard is making things much worse than they are at the 
moment.

Also it should be noted that while porting Linux to an ARM device designed for 
Windows (such as a Windows phone) would probably take a lot of work it's 
relatively easy to get your own Linux build on an Android phone if it's not 
locked down.

-- 
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My Documents Bloghttp://doc.coker.com.au/


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Re: EFI in Debian

2012-07-08 Thread Ben Hutchings
On Sun, 2012-07-08 at 14:15 +0100, Wookey wrote:
[...]
 A competition case is much harder to bring here because Windows has
 almost zero share on ARM and can use that as an excuse. Of course, as
 we know in Debian architecture is really irrelevant to the question of
 'is this OS dominant and using its dominance in one area to restrict
 competition in another'?
[...]

It's not irrelevant.  OS dominance is dependent on relationships with
hardware manufacturers (not the same for different architectures) and
application developers (often uninterested in porting, however easy it
is).

Did Windows NT take over PowerPC?  No.  Alpha?  Not even after FX!32
provided fast x86 emulation.

And the application developers used to Win32 (or Windows Forms) won't be
able to port to Windows RT without first rewriting for the 'Windows
Runtime' APIs.

Ben.

-- 
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Life would be so much easier if we could look at the source code.


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Re: EFI in Debian

2012-07-08 Thread Paul Wise
On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 7:15 AM, Wookey wrote:
 Will Android machines make secure boot turn-offable or another key
 installable, or will thay follow the Microsoft lead and lock
 everything down too?

Are there any Android devices that aren't *already* bootloader locked
or require jailbreaking to get root? I don't think Microsoft is
creating a trend here, locked down ARM devices are already the norm
AFAICT.

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Re: EFI in Debian

2012-07-08 Thread Philipp Kern
Paul,

am Sun, Jul 08, 2012 at 10:00:05AM -0600 hast du folgendes geschrieben:
 On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 7:15 AM, Wookey wrote:
  Will Android machines make secure boot turn-offable or another key
  installable, or will thay follow the Microsoft lead and lock
  everything down too?
 Are there any Android devices that aren't *already* bootloader locked
 or require jailbreaking to get root? I don't think Microsoft is
 creating a trend here, locked down ARM devices are already the norm
 AFAICT.

there's a difference between requiring jailbreaking to get root and being able
to flash a random different software image. The Samsung Galaxy S is perfectly
able to get flashed, but with the default image you don't get root. I'm sort
of ok with that because I couldn't care less about the default image. 

Kind regards
Philipp Kern


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Re: EFI in Debian

2012-07-08 Thread Ted Ts'o
On Sun, Jul 08, 2012 at 10:00:05AM -0600, Paul Wise wrote:
 On Sun, Jul 8, 2012 at 7:15 AM, Wookey wrote:
  Will Android machines make secure boot turn-offable or another key
  installable, or will thay follow the Microsoft lead and lock
  everything down too?
 
 Are there any Android devices that aren't *already* bootloader locked
 or require jailbreaking to get root? I don't think Microsoft is
 creating a trend here, locked down ARM devices are already the norm
 AFAICT.

The Galaxy Nexus (and Nexus devices in general) can be unlocked by
simply running the fastboot oem unlock command which is distributed
as part of the Android SDK.  The unlock process will erase all of the
user data for security reasons (so that if someone steals your phone,
they can't use the unlock process to break security and grab all of
your data, including silly things like the authentication cookies
which would allow an attacker access to your google eaccount).

HTC and ASUS have also been selling their newer android with an
unlocked bootloader.  Most Samsung devices are shipped with unlocking
tools, so it came as a bit a surprise when the Verizon Samsung Galaxy
S3 came with a locked bootloader.  Some have blamed Verizon, but
there's no proof of that as far as I know.

So in answer to your question, there are plenty of Android devices
which are trivially unlockable.  (And once a Nexus phone is unlocked,
it's you can get a root shell trivially; no jail-breaking necessary.
Of course this is true for an attacker/thief who has managed to steal
your phone, but if you want to unlock the phone, it's easily doable on
many Android devices.)

   - Ted

P.S.  Personally, I recommend that people buy SIM unlocked, and easily
boot-unlocked Android phones; and if you get Google Experience Nexus
that isn't subsidized by Carriers, its firmware updates don't have to
get approved by carriers.  It also means you don't get any
carrier-mandated or handset-manfacturer-mandated bloatware.


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Re: EFI in Debian

2012-07-08 Thread Ted Ts'o
On Fri, Jul 06, 2012 at 05:32:44AM +0100, Ben Hutchings wrote:
 
 2. Upstream kernel support: when booted in Secure Boot mode, Linux would
 only load signed kernel modules and disable the various debug interfaces
 that allow code injection.  I'm aware that David Howells, Matthew
 Garrett and others are working on this.

Matthew Garret believes that this is a requirement; however, there is
no documented paper trail indicating that this is actually necessary.
There are those who believe that Microsoft wouldn't dare revoke a
Linux key because of the antitrust issues that would arise.

This would especially true if the bootloader displayed a spash screen
with a huge penguin on it, and the user was obliged to hit a key
acknowledging the spash screen before the boot was allowed to
continue.  James is working on a signed bootloader which would do
this.

It's not even obvious that the spash screen is needed, BTW.  Canonical
is not using a splash screen and is not signing the kernel or kernel
modules.  It will be *very* interesting if Microsoft dares to revoke
Canonical's certificate, or refuse to issue a certificate.  I'm sure
there are developers in Europe who would be delighted to call this to
the attention of the European Anti-Trust regulators --- you know, the
ones who have already fined Microsoft to the tune of 860 million Euros
($1.1 billion USD).

So personally, I would hope that at least some distributions will
patch out the splash screen, and apply for a certificate.  If we have
multiple distributions using different signing policies and slightly
different approaches (which is the beauty of free/open source boot
loaders; everyone can tweak things slightly), we can see how Microsoft
will react.

It should be entertaining

- Ted


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Re: EFI in Debian

2012-07-07 Thread Ansgar Burchardt
Hi,

Ben Hutchings b...@decadent.org.uk writes:
 2. Upstream kernel support: when booted in Secure Boot mode, Linux would
 only load signed kernel modules and disable the various debug interfaces
 that allow code injection.  I'm aware that David Howells, Matthew
 Garrett and others are working on this.

That makes dkms modules unusable when using secure boot.  I guess we
would have to build binary packages for all supported kernel versions?

 5. Key management policy.  Similar issues to archive signing keys, but
 these keys also need to be available at build time.  (a) Should they be
 held by package maintainers and/or the auto-builders for the relevant
 architectures?  (b) sbuild and/or pbuilder will need to know how to
 inject them into the build environment for the relevant packages.  (c)
 How do we handle key replacement when exploitable code needs to be
 blacklisted?

Do these need to be available when building the kernel packages or would
it be possible to have the signatures in a separate package?  The latter
would allow moving the signing off the auto-builders and having either
a human maintainer or a dedicated system do so instead (so the
auto-builders would not need access to the keys).  It would also allow
signing modules provided in the maintainer upload.

Ansgar


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Re: EFI in Debian

2012-07-07 Thread Ben Hutchings
On Sat, 2012-07-07 at 08:46 -0600, Ansgar Burchardt wrote:
 Hi,
 
 Ben Hutchings b...@decadent.org.uk writes:
  2. Upstream kernel support: when booted in Secure Boot mode, Linux would
  only load signed kernel modules and disable the various debug interfaces
  that allow code injection.  I'm aware that David Howells, Matthew
  Garrett and others are working on this.
 
 That makes dkms modules unusable when using secure boot.  I guess we
 would have to build binary packages for all supported kernel versions?

The Linux kernel hardly has a perfect security record, but signing code
that is too bad even for staging will be a quick route to blacklisting.
I would absolutely oppose signing out-of-tree modules with Debian keys.

  5. Key management policy.  Similar issues to archive signing keys, but
  these keys also need to be available at build time.  (a) Should they be
  held by package maintainers and/or the auto-builders for the relevant
  architectures?  (b) sbuild and/or pbuilder will need to know how to
  inject them into the build environment for the relevant packages.  (c)
  How do we handle key replacement when exploitable code needs to be
  blacklisted?
 
 Do these need to be available when building the kernel packages or would
 it be possible to have the signatures in a separate package?

That is possible... but the installation process would be tricky.

 The latter
 would allow moving the signing off the auto-builders and having either
 a human maintainer or a dedicated system do so instead (so the
 auto-builders would not need access to the keys).  It would also allow
 signing modules provided in the maintainer upload.

It would also help sites to sign with their own PK, if they want to take
full advantage of Secure Boot.

Ben.

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Re: EFI in Debian

2012-07-07 Thread Steve Langasek
On Fri, Jul 06, 2012 at 10:14:01AM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
 Le vendredi 06 juillet 2012 à 05:32 +0100, Ben Hutchings a écrit : 
  1. General consensus in the project that supporting the option of Secure
  Boot, including purchase of a Microsoft-signed certificate, is
  worthwhile and not entirely objectionable.  

 Not entirely objectionable indeed, but it really depends on what we
 would have to pay for.  As long as it is only covering for
 administrative costs of Microsoft emitting a new certificate, it is
 fine.

Microsoft has indicated their intent to provide the Secure Boot CA services
free of charge.  AIUI the only associated fee is to a third party, Verisign,
for them to provide the service of establishing digital identity to
Microsoft's standards.

 If OTOH we have to pay a fee just for our software to work on platforms
 that just happen to be using Microsoft’s certificate, this is clearly
 abusive.  I would object to do so, and I believe we would (at least in
 Europe) have a very strong case in court against such practice.

Note that the Windows 8 requirements stipulate that users must in all cases
retain the ability to disable Secure Boot on their x86 systems from the
firmware.  It's really a question of ease of installation, and whether
Secure Boot provides any additional security protection that we think it's
worth providing to Debian users out of the box.

-- 
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Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


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Re: EFI in Debian

2012-07-07 Thread Andreas Barth
* Steve Langasek (vor...@debian.org) [120707 22:54]:
 On Fri, Jul 06, 2012 at 10:14:01AM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
  If OTOH we have to pay a fee just for our software to work on platforms
  that just happen to be using Microsoft’s certificate, this is clearly
  abusive.  I would object to do so, and I believe we would (at least in
  Europe) have a very strong case in court against such practice.
 
 Note that the Windows 8 requirements stipulate that users must in all cases
 retain the ability to disable Secure Boot on their x86 systems from the
 firmware.  It's really a question of ease of installation, and whether
 Secure Boot provides any additional security protection that we think it's
 worth providing to Debian users out of the box.

IIRC it's not the same on embedded hardware.


Andi


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Re: EFI in Debian

2012-07-07 Thread Stefano Zacchiroli
On Sat, Jul 07, 2012 at 02:48:59PM -0600, Steve Langasek wrote:
 On Fri, Jul 06, 2012 at 10:14:01AM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
  If OTOH we have to pay a fee just for our software to work on platforms
  that just happen to be using Microsoft’s certificate, this is clearly
  abusive.  I would object to do so, and I believe we would (at least in
  Europe) have a very strong case in court against such practice.
 
 Note that the Windows 8 requirements stipulate that users must in all cases
 retain the ability to disable Secure Boot on their x86 systems from the
 firmware.  It's really a question of ease of installation, and whether
 Secure Boot provides any additional security protection that we think it's
 worth providing to Debian users out of the box.

This argument seems to depend on how thoroughly Microsoft will enforce
their Windows 8 requirements. AFAIU, the fact that Windows 8
requirements might, at least theoretically, be disattended is something
that played a role also in Canonical/Ubuntu decision to stay away from
Grub. All in all, it doesn't seem wise to rely on the fact that Windows
8 requirements will be enforced, especially when disattending them gives
an advantage to Microsoft, by making it even harder to install other
OSs.

Cheers.
-- 
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Maître de conférences   ..   http://upsilon.cc/zack   ..   . . o
Debian Project Leader...   @zack on identi.ca   ...o o o
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Re: EFI in Debian

2012-07-07 Thread Steve Langasek
On Sat, Jul 07, 2012 at 11:09:57PM +0200, Andreas Barth wrote:
 * Steve Langasek (vor...@debian.org) [120707 22:54]:
  On Fri, Jul 06, 2012 at 10:14:01AM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote:
   If OTOH we have to pay a fee just for our software to work on platforms
   that just happen to be using Microsoft’s certificate, this is clearly
   abusive.  I would object to do so, and I believe we would (at least in
   Europe) have a very strong case in court against such practice.

  Note that the Windows 8 requirements stipulate that users must in all cases
  retain the ability to disable Secure Boot on their x86 systems from the
  firmware.  It's really a question of ease of installation, and whether
  Secure Boot provides any additional security protection that we think it's
  worth providing to Debian users out of the box.

 IIRC it's not the same on embedded hardware.

The distinction is between x86 and ARM, and the Windows 8 cert requirements
for ARM appear to have as their goal to prevent any other OS to be bootable
on that hardware.  So I don't think you should expect MS to sign any UEFI
ARM bootloader binaries at all.

-- 
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Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


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Re: EFI in Debian

2012-07-06 Thread Josselin Mouette
Le vendredi 06 juillet 2012 à 05:32 +0100, Ben Hutchings a écrit : 
 1. General consensus in the project that supporting the option of Secure
 Boot, including purchase of a Microsoft-signed certificate, is
 worthwhile and not entirely objectionable.  

Not entirely objectionable indeed, but it really depends on what we
would have to pay for.  As long as it is only covering for
administrative costs of Microsoft emitting a new certificate, it is
fine.  If OTOH we have to pay a fee just for our software to work on
platforms that just happen to be using Microsoft’s certificate, this is
clearly abusive.  I would object to do so, and I believe we would (at
least in Europe) have a very strong case in court against such practice.

-- 
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: :' :
`. `'
  `-


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Re: EFI in Debian

2012-07-06 Thread Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez
On 06/07/12 06:32, Ben Hutchings wrote:
 1. General consensus in the project that supporting the option of Secure
 Boot, including purchase of a Microsoft-signed certificate, is
 worthwhile and not entirely objectionable.  (I am assuming that it would
 be a waste of time to use our own platform key, as anyone who can work
 out how to install that can also disable Secure Boot.)
 

This are the FSF recommendations:

http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/secure-boot-vs-restricted-boot/whitepaper-web



Regards!
-- 
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Re: EFI in Debian

2012-07-06 Thread Paul Wise
On Fri, Jul 6, 2012 at 5:41 AM, Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez wrote:

 This are the FSF recommendations:

 http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/secure-boot-vs-restricted-boot/whitepaper-web

These seem much more in line with the Debian social contract than any
the actions of other distributions or of the suggestions we have had.

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Re: EFI in Debian

2012-07-05 Thread Steve McIntyre
Tanguy wrote:
Steve McIntyre, 2012-07-02 18:42+0200:
 As you might have seen from recent discussions about the Fedora and
 Ubuntu strategies for how to deal with EFI and Secure Boot, there are
 potentially major issues in the area. In Debian we don't (yet) have a
 plan, so it's high time that we had some discussion. I've set up a BoF
 at DebConf for this:

I cannot attend, but hoping it can be useful, here are some pointers to
things I wrote some time ago on this subject.

A blog post explaining how to set up Debian to boot via UEFI:
http://tanguy.ortolo.eu/blog/article51/debian-efi
A message to this list detailing the UEFI boot procedure and what is
required to support it:
je7174$b6p$1...@dough.gmane.org
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2012/01/msg00168.html

Cool, thanks for the pointers. If you can make it, please try to join
the session via video and irc?

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Re: EFI in Debian

2012-07-05 Thread Theodore Ts'o
On Wed, Jul 04, 2012 at 12:51:01PM +, Tanguy Ortolo wrote:
 Tanguy Ortolo, 2012-07-04 14:13+0200:
  A blog post explaining how to set up Debian to boot via UEFI:
 http://tanguy.ortolo.eu/blog/article51/debian-efi
  A message to this list detailing the UEFI boot procedure and what is
  required to support it:
 je7174$b6p$1...@dough.gmane.org
 http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2012/01/msg00168.html
 
 (basically, we already have everything needed to boot via UEFI (not with
 SecureBoot of course, though), only the Debian installer does not
 support it)

James Bottomly has been doing some work to support Secure Boot.  See:

  http://lwn.net/Articles/503820/

His work was done specifically to help other community distributions
beyond Ubuntu and Fedora.  We (the LF Technical Advisory Board) are
currently investigating if there is more the LF can do to support
distributions.  We're not in the position to promise anything just
yet, but if Debian has any suggestions of things that you might like,
do please let me know.

Regards,

- Ted


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Re: EFI in Debian

2012-07-05 Thread Ben Hutchings
On Thu, 2012-07-05 at 22:27 -0400, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
 On Wed, Jul 04, 2012 at 12:51:01PM +, Tanguy Ortolo wrote:
  Tanguy Ortolo, 2012-07-04 14:13+0200:
   A blog post explaining how to set up Debian to boot via UEFI:
  http://tanguy.ortolo.eu/blog/article51/debian-efi
   A message to this list detailing the UEFI boot procedure and what is
   required to support it:
  je7174$b6p$1...@dough.gmane.org
  http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2012/01/msg00168.html
  
  (basically, we already have everything needed to boot via UEFI (not with
  SecureBoot of course, though), only the Debian installer does not
  support it)
 
 James Bottomly has been doing some work to support Secure Boot.  See:
 
   http://lwn.net/Articles/503820/
 
 His work was done specifically to help other community distributions
 beyond Ubuntu and Fedora.  We (the LF Technical Advisory Board) are
 currently investigating if there is more the LF can do to support
 distributions.  We're not in the position to promise anything just
 yet, but if Debian has any suggestions of things that you might like,
 do please let me know.

UEFI running in qemu is likely to be very useful for development of UEFI
support by the Debian installer and Debian CD teams.

Secure Boot is another matter, which I was planning to raise *after* the
release as it's controversial and I don't think we have time to do
anything about it for wheezy.  But here's what I think we would need:

1. General consensus in the project that supporting the option of Secure
Boot, including purchase of a Microsoft-signed certificate, is
worthwhile and not entirely objectionable.  (I am assuming that it would
be a waste of time to use our own platform key, as anyone who can work
out how to install that can also disable Secure Boot.)

2. Upstream kernel support: when booted in Secure Boot mode, Linux would
only load signed kernel modules and disable the various debug interfaces
that allow code injection.  I'm aware that David Howells, Matthew
Garrett and others are working on this.

3. A suitable free boot loader: when booted in Secure Boot mode it would
only load signed EFI executables.  There seem to be several projects
under way to do this.

4. EFI code signing tool.  Matthew Garrett seems to have that in hand.

5. Key management policy.  Similar issues to archive signing keys, but
these keys also need to be available at build time.  (a) Should they be
held by package maintainers and/or the auto-builders for the relevant
architectures?  (b) sbuild and/or pbuilder will need to know how to
inject them into the build environment for the relevant packages.  (c)
How do we handle key replacement when exploitable code needs to be
blacklisted?

6. User documentation: users need to be informed that when running Linux
under Secure Boot some major features are disabled, and that they have
the option to turn it off.  (Or install their own platform key.)

So, returning to your question: I think that LF may be able to help with
5(c), 6, and perhaps 3 (encouraging more coordinated development).

Ben.

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Re: EFI in Debian

2012-07-04 Thread Tanguy Ortolo
Steve McIntyre, 2012-07-02 18:42+0200:
 As you might have seen from recent discussions about the Fedora and
 Ubuntu strategies for how to deal with EFI and Secure Boot, there are
 potentially major issues in the area. In Debian we don't (yet) have a
 plan, so it's high time that we had some discussion. I've set up a BoF
 at DebConf for this:

I cannot attend, but hoping it can be useful, here are some pointers to
things I wrote some time ago on this subject.

A blog post explaining how to set up Debian to boot via UEFI:
http://tanguy.ortolo.eu/blog/article51/debian-efi
A message to this list detailing the UEFI boot procedure and what is
required to support it:
je7174$b6p$1...@dough.gmane.org
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2012/01/msg00168.html

-- 
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Re: EFI in Debian

2012-07-04 Thread Tanguy Ortolo
Tanguy Ortolo, 2012-07-04 14:13+0200:
 A blog post explaining how to set up Debian to boot via UEFI:
http://tanguy.ortolo.eu/blog/article51/debian-efi
 A message to this list detailing the UEFI boot procedure and what is
 required to support it:
je7174$b6p$1...@dough.gmane.org
http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2012/01/msg00168.html

(basically, we already have everything needed to boot via UEFI (not with
SecureBoot of course, though), only the Debian installer does not
support it)

-- 
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EFI in Debian

2012-07-02 Thread Steve McIntyre
Hey folks,

As you might have seen from recent discussions about the Fedora and
Ubuntu strategies for how to deal with EFI and Secure Boot, there are
potentially major issues in the area. In Debian we don't (yet) have a
plan, so it's high time that we had some discussion. I've set up a BoF
at DebConf for this:

https://penta.debconf.org/penta/schedule/dc12/event/925.en.html

That's Monday 9th July, 15:00 local time (21:00 UTC).

-- 
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Re: EFI in Debian

2012-07-02 Thread Stefano Zacchiroli
On Mon, Jul 02, 2012 at 05:42:13PM +0100, Steve McIntyre wrote:
 As you might have seen from recent discussions about the Fedora and
 Ubuntu strategies for how to deal with EFI and Secure Boot, there are
 potentially major issues in the area. In Debian we don't (yet) have a
 plan, so it's high time that we had some discussion. I've set up a BoF
 at DebConf for this:
 
 https://penta.debconf.org/penta/schedule/dc12/event/925.en.html
 
 That's Monday 9th July, 15:00 local time (21:00 UTC).

Hi Steve, thanks for taking care of that. We're indeed a bit late in our
reflections on this matter and we should come up with a plan for both
Wheezy (if still feasible?) and the future. I unfortunately won't be
able to make it for the BoF, as I've to leave shortly after DebCamp. But
I encourage everyone to participate in the BoF and please work on a
report or minutes so that we can have a discussion on list (either here
or on -boot) afterwards.

For those who are not familiar with the crux of secure boot, here are a
few recent references on the matter:

- Fedora's plans http://mjg59.dreamwidth.org/12368.html
- Ubuntu's plans
  http://blog.canonical.com/2012/06/22/an-update-on-ubuntu-and-secure-boot/
  (with a more technical discussion of it at
   https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2012-June/035445.html )
- FSF's paper
  http://www.fsf.org/campaigns/secure-boot-vs-restricted-boot/whitepaper-web

Cheers.
-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli zack@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} . o .
Maître de conférences   ..   http://upsilon.cc/zack   ..   . . o
Debian Project Leader...   @zack on identi.ca   ...o o o
« the first rule of tautology club is the first rule of tautology club »


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