Re: GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration
Hi all of you... I've just been reading this (quite old for now) thread. What's the status of the discussion now ? Has there been some new feeback from other groups ? -- Yann Dirson [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://monge.univ-mlv.fr/~dirson -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration
Yann == Yann Dirson [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Yann Hi all of you... I've just been reading this (quite old for
Yann now) thread. What's the status of the discussion now ? Has
Yann there been some new feeback from other groups ?
I just discovered /usr/share/keytables/hypermap.m4. It's a really
good keymap! With that, emacs will see {M-S-!}, {M-S-} and {M-S-}
on a linux console tty! Finally!
The m4 macros it uses look like the right way to do this. I bet
similar macros could define X keysyms.
--
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Karl M. Hegbloom)
http://www.inetarena.com/~karlheg
Portland, OR USA
Debian GNU 1.3 Linux 2.1.36 AMD K5 PR-133
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Re: GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration
Tom Lees [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ctrl+PrintScreen (=SysRq) should do a kernel info thing. Have you heard of the GGI project? One of the things they have is a SAK (secure attention key), which is guaranteed to kill all processes running on the current VC. The key they're using at the moment for SAK is SysRq. (The idea is so that you can kill hung X servers and so on, and be sure that you've got a real login prompt, not a spoof.) While GGI isn't in the 'real' kernel yet, and probably won't be ready for a while, it might not be a good idea to assign some other meaning to the key it'll be using... What about W95 keys (3 of them)? Define as F20 or something? I heard it suggested that someone should get some keytops printed with little penguins and then sell pairs of them to Linux users with Win 95 keyboards... ;-) --Charles Briscoe-Smith White pages entry, with PGP key: URL:http://alethea.ukc.ac.uk/wp?95cpb4 PGP public keyprint: 74 68 AB 2E 1C 60 22 94 B8 21 2D 01 DE 66 13 E2 -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration
On Mon, 26 May 1997, Christian Schwarz wrote: On Mon, 26 May 1997, Jim Pick wrote: I agree 100% with what Ian says. (Let's do it) Me too! (I didn't know that such a simple solution is possible :-) So what about the other keys? I suggest that all character keys, symbols, etc. should produce the character that's printed on the key (this sounds reasonable, doesn't it :-) Then I have a special ALT key on my german kbd, that's label Alt Gr. In DOS/Win95 it behaves like pressing Ctrl-Alt together. It's useful to get some alt-alt keys (for example, I have =, 0, and, } on one key). I think the behaviour should be the same in Debian. Yep. We need to make sure that the AltGr key on most European keyboards does something (and even on UK keyboards... it produces a IBM line-drawing char IIRC). This involves adding a modifier to the keymap (at least for std console). Other keys: - End: Should jump to the end of the line/document, depending on where it's used, for example, jumps to end of line in readline, but end of document in less. Ok? - Home: Opposite of End. Fine What about the second cursor block at the right? It would be nice if one could switch between the function keys (left, right, etc.) and the digits (0, 1, etc.) with the Num Lock key. Is this possible? (The current behaviour is to produce digits all the time, no matter if Num Lock is set.) This works at the console (with uk.map). Then I have a Print key, Scroll-Lock, and Pause. All three keys don't have an effect in my X configuration--on the console Scroll-Lock starts/stops terminal output, just like C-S and C-Q. Is there any useful meaning for Print and Pause in Linux? Ctrl+Pause (=Break) should do one of those kernel dumps IMHO. Or produce SIGINT, whatever... Does someone have any other special keys on his keyboard that we should define? (We'll just do it if the keyboard layout is widely used.) Ctrl+PrintScreen (=SysRq) should do a kernel info thing. What about W95 keys (3 of them)? Define as F20 or something? -- Tom Lees [EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.lpsg.demon.co.uk/ PGP ID 87D4D065, fingerprint 2A 66 86 9D 02 4D A6 1E B8 A2 17 9D 4F 9B 89 D6 finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] for full public key (also available on keyservers) -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration
DF == David Frey [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: :: Then I have a Print key, Scroll-Lock, and Pause. All :: three keys don't have an effect in my X configuration--on the :: console Scroll-Lock starts/stops terminal output, just like :: C-S and C-Q. Is there any useful meaning for Print and :: Pause in Linux? DF: Yes they may the registers, task list etc. and may switch DF: from/to the last used console. There is another possible usage -- switching between different keyboards. For example Czech Linux users usually use one of these keys for switching between US keyboard (when programming) and Czech keyboard (when writing texts). I think the best what to do with these keys is not to assign anything to them and left them as free function keys for users. Milan Zamazal -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (David Frey) wrote on 27.05.97 in [EMAIL PROTECTED]: AltGr is a special modifier: it is a kind of Hyper key if you want (with Alt == Meta). Ah yes, this brings up a point: *Don't* use Alt=(bit 0x80)! This won't work for most people (anybody that needs more than ASCII). It's been a bad idea from the start. PS: I was never able to reliably switch the Ctrl/CapsLock key a la Sun. And don't do this as a standard feature, either - CapsLock is bad enough on its own, but switching it with Ctrl would make a keyboard just about unusable for me. The way I type, CapsLock is just about out of reach for every finger. MfG Kai -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration
David Frey: PS: I was never able to reliably switch the Ctrl/CapsLock key a la Sun. On May 28, Kai Henningsen wrote And don't do this as a standard feature, either - CapsLock is bad enough on its own, but switching it with Ctrl would make a keyboard just about unusable for me. The way I type, CapsLock is just about out of reach for every finger. On the other hand, it would be nice to have changes to the X keyboard get propagated back to the regular keyboard (e.g. using both caps lock and control as control). -- Raul -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration
Mark == Mark Eichin [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Mark I think it covers everything; would you mind floating it Mark before a broader audience though (gnu.emacs.misc perhaps, if Mark not also comp.protocols.x.something?) And [EMAIL PROTECTED] Or should I make a digest and forward to them? Karl M. Hegbloom [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.inetarena.com/~karlheg Portland, OR USA Debian GNU 1.2 Linux 2.1.36 AMD K5 PR-133 -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Manoj Srivastava) wrote on 26.05.97 in [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Christoph == Christoph Lameter [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Christoph Emacs is one application. We want to use an existing Christoph STANDARD not screw up one more. Emacs can be Christoph adapted. Please do use existing standards for keyboard Christoph layouts and character mapping! Sorry. In this context STANDARD is also what people percieve the standard to be, not what the bodies say (have we already forgotten what happened to the nice HTML 3.0?) Not that you'll find a standards body saying anything about keyboard bs vs. del vs. vt220 delete sequence. In fact, I've not found any serious standard about the input side of controls and escapes, and I've been looking. Maybe there should be one, but there isn't any. MfG Kai -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration
On Mon, May 26 1997 20:40 +0200 Christian Schwarz writes: Then I have a special ALT key on my german kbd, that's label Alt Gr. In DOS/Win95 it behaves like pressing Ctrl-Alt together. It's useful to get some alt-alt keys (for example, I have =, 0, and, } on one key). I think the behaviour should be the same in Debian. AltGr is a special modifier: it is a kind of Hyper key if you want (with Alt == Meta). [lot of agrees about Home/End/cursor block etc.] What about the second cursor block at the right? It would be nice if one could switch between the function keys (left, right, etc.) and the digits (0, 1, etc.) with the Num Lock key. Is this possible? (The current behaviour is to produce digits all the time, no matter if Num Lock is set.) Mine work, both under X as under the console too. Then I have a Print key, Scroll-Lock, and Pause. All three keys don't have an effect in my X configuration--on the console Scroll-Lock starts/stops terminal output, just like C-S and C-Q. Is there any useful meaning for Print and Pause in Linux? Yes: they may the registers, task list etc. and may switch from/to the last used console. Does someone have any other special keys on his keyboard that we should define? (We'll just do it if the keyboard layout is widely used.) I'm sending you my special Swiss German Keymap and the X additions as a reference what is possible (sorry for the others to bother you with this...) David PS: I was never able to reliably switch the Ctrl/CapsLock key a la Sun. 8--- # Console keyboard layout # # $Id: sg-latin1.map,v 1.4 1996/11/14 20:08:10 david Exp $ # $Log: sg-latin1.map,v $ # Revision 1.4 1996/11/14 20:08:10 david # Dumped keymap; fixed ^Y/^Z mapping. # charset iso-8859-1 keycode 1 = Escape Escape alt keycode 1 = Meta_Escape keycode 2 = one plus bar alt keycode 2 = Meta_one keycode 3 = two quotedbl at control keycode 3 = nul shift control keycode 3 = nul alt keycode 3 = Meta_two keycode 4 = threeasterisk numbersign control keycode 4 = Escape alt keycode 4 = Meta_three keycode 5 = four ccedilla dollar control keycode 5 = Control_backslash alt keycode 5 = Meta_four keycode 6 = five percent control keycode 6 = Control_bracketright alt keycode 6 = Meta_five keycode 7 = six ampersandnotsign control keycode 7 = Control_asciicircum alt keycode 7 = Meta_six keycode 8 = sevenslashbar control keycode 8 = Control_underscore alt keycode 8 = Meta_seven keycode 9 = eightparenleftcent control keycode 9 = Delete alt keycode 9 = Meta_eight keycode 10 = nine parenright bracketright alt keycode 10 = Meta_nine keycode 11 = zero equalbraceright alt keycode 11 = Meta_zero keycode 12 = apostrophe question dead_acute control keycode 12 = Control_underscore shift control keycode 12 = Control_underscore alt keycode 12 = Meta_minus keycode 13 = dead_circumflex dead_grave dead_tilde alt keycode 13 = Meta_equal keycode 14 = Delete Delete control keycode 14 = BackSpace alt keycode 14 = Meta_Delete keycode 15 = Tab Tab alt keycode 15 = Meta_Tab keycode 16 = +qQ+q control keycode 16 = Control_q shift control keycode 16 = Control_q alt keycode 16 = Meta_q control alt keycode 16 = Meta_Control_q keycode 17 = +wW+w control keycode 17 = Control_w shift control keycode 17 = Control_w alt keycode 17 = Meta_w control alt keycode 17 = Meta_Control_w keycode 18 = +eEHex_E control keycode 18 = Control_e shift control keycode 18 = Control_e alt keycode 18 = Meta_e control alt keycode 18 = Meta_Control_e keycode 19 = +rRregistered control keycode 19 = Control_r shift control keycode 19 = Control_r alt keycode 19 = Meta_r
Re: GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration
well, there is a half-baked idea that I've seen go by: in emacs, *if* the user has done an stty erase ^h (ie. if the ltchars erase entry is ^h) then treat ^h as backspace, otherwise treat it as help-char... However, that's not going into debian emacs unless it goes into the upstream version (19.35 due out soon...) (I'm very interested in solutions to this issue that have near universal buy-in, just to get everyone to shut up about it :-) :-) :-) since I maintain both emacs *and* X, and thus see *all* of the complaints, not just some of them...) _Mark_ [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Herd of Kittens A Debian Maintainer -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration
Huh. I have the opposite problem: The end key doens't work in xterms! in xterm, or in rxvt? (This is one of the two or three differences between the rxvt and xterm termcap entries...) -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration
Hi, Christian == Christian Schwarz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Christian Perhaps we can make an exception for stupid emacs (yes, I Christian use it too :-) Christian I just had a look at the article again and it seams as the Christian author silently overrides ^H to behave like Backspace :-) Christian Anyways, I don't want to mess around with different Christian meanings of the Backspace/Delete keys all the time just Christian because the author of Emacs did this mistake! Unfortunately, I think this is a very poular package to dismiss this easily ;-(. Christian Let me summarize (and please correct me if I'm wrong): Christian 1) everyone agrees that Backspace (the -- key) should Christiandelete to the left Christian 2) that Delete (the del key, or Entf for germans :-) Christianshould delete the key the cursor is standing on Ok so far. Christian 3) ^H (that is Ctrl-H) should act like Backspace Why on earth? Espescially under X, delete is delete, backspace is backspace, and neither should be C-H. Is there a technical reason for this? Christian except within emacs, where ^H should bring up the online Christian help See above. Christian Correct? Christian Does someone know if this is possible? If not, I suggest to Christian drop rule 4). Anyways, I'm talking about the default kbd Christian configuration of a Debian system. Everyone is free to Christian override this with his own meaning of some keys. I would rather remove support for Delete (which I personally rarely use). Are we going to provide instructions on how exactly to accomplish unsetting this behaviour? So that users may choose on a user by user basis? Currently, on a console, I get, under bash, and Emacs, backspace deletes char backwards, and C-H gets help, and the same thing happens on an xterm. I cheat. My backspace sends DEL under the VT, and X emacs, but not in an xterm (where it sends C-H). (I have forgotten how exactly I achieve all this on all the different platforms I reside on, now ;-() Christian For example, we could ask the user at installation time of Christian the emacs package, whether he/she wants to In this case the installer unilaterally dictates to the preferences of *all* users of the machine. Christian a) ^H _and_ Backspace to bring up the help screen or ^H Christian _and_ Backspace delete the character to the left But this is hardly the desired behaviour: we want backspace to delete the character to the left, and C-H to pull up help. We definitely don't want them both to do the same thing, ever. Change thingslike this around, and see another jihad erupt ;-) Christian Hey, I'm not going to give up that early! Then let loose the dogs of war ;-) manoj -- The less you know about home computers the more you'll want the new IBM PS/1. Advertisment in the Edmonton Journal, Thursday, December 13, 1990 Manoj Srivastava url:mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Mobile, Alabama USAurl:http://www.datasync.com/%7Esrivasta/ -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration
What we want is: * `--' always deletes the character to the left of the cursor. * `Delete' always deletes to the right. * `Control'+`H' produces help in Emacs, as before. We want this to be true for the console, for X, and even if you use rlogin or telnet to get from one system to another. What we should do is the following: * `--' generates KB_Backspace in X. * `Delete' generates KB_Delete in X. * X translations are set up to make KB_Backspace generate ASCII DEL. * X translations are set up to make KB_Delete generate ESC [ 3 ~ (this is the vt220 escape code for the `delete character' key). * stty erase ^? * The `xterm' terminfo entry should have ESC [ 3 ~ for kdch1, just like TERM=linux and TERM=vt220. * Emacs is programmed to map KB_Backspace or the `stty erase' character to delete-backward-char, and KB_Delete or kdch1 to delete-forward-char, and ^H to help as always. * Other applications use the `stty erase' character and kdch1 for the two delete keys, with ASCII DEL being `delete previous character' and kdch1 being `delete character under cursor'. This will solve the problem except for: * Some terminals have a `--' key that cannot be made to produce anything except ^H. On these terminals Emacs help will be unavailable (assuming that the `stty erase' character takes precedence in Emacs, and has been set correctly). * Some other operating systems do incompatible things. We can change the behaviour of their X clients via the same X resources that we use to do it for our own; telnet and rlogin propagate some of this information too. Ian. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED] you wrote: : What we want is: : * `--' always deletes the character to the left of the cursor. : * `Delete' always deletes to the right. : * `Control'+`H' produces help in Emacs, as before. Emacs is one application. We want to use an existing STANDARD not screw up one more. Emacs can be adapted. Please do use existing standards for keyboard layouts and character mapping! --- +++ --- +++ --- +++ --- +++ --- +++ --- +++ --- +++ --- Please always CC me when replying to posts on mailing lists. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration
Jim Pick [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I agree 100% with what Ian says. (Let's do it) Consider this another me too. -- Rob -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration
On Mon, 26 May 1997, Jim Pick wrote: I agree 100% with what Ian says. (Let's do it) Me too! (I didn't know that such a simple solution is possible :-) So what about the other keys? I suggest that all character keys, symbols, etc. should produce the character that's printed on the key (this sounds reasonable, doesn't it :-) Then I have a special ALT key on my german kbd, that's label Alt Gr. In DOS/Win95 it behaves like pressing Ctrl-Alt together. It's useful to get some alt-alt keys (for example, I have =, 0, and, } on one key). I think the behaviour should be the same in Debian. Other keys: - End: Should jump to the end of the line/document, depending on where it's used, for example, jumps to end of line in readline, but end of document in less. Ok? - Home: Opposite of End. What about the second cursor block at the right? It would be nice if one could switch between the function keys (left, right, etc.) and the digits (0, 1, etc.) with the Num Lock key. Is this possible? (The current behaviour is to produce digits all the time, no matter if Num Lock is set.) Then I have a Print key, Scroll-Lock, and Pause. All three keys don't have an effect in my X configuration--on the console Scroll-Lock starts/stops terminal output, just like C-S and C-Q. Is there any useful meaning for Print and Pause in Linux? Does someone have any other special keys on his keyboard that we should define? (We'll just do it if the keyboard layout is widely used.) Thanks, Chris -- Christian Schwarz [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], Debian is looking [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] for a logo! Have a look at our drafts PGP-fp: 8F 61 EB 6D CF 23 CA D7 34 05 14 5C C8 DC 22 BA athttp://fatman.mathematik.tu-muenchen.de/~schwarz/debian-logo/ -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration
Hi, A jihad-buster ;-(. I agree with Ian, lets do it, as Jim said. Manoj -- You may redistribute this article only to those who may freely do likewise. Chip Salzenberg at A T Engineering; [EMAIL PROTECTED] or uunet!ateng!chip Thanks. I think I'll just flush it. Dale C. Cook, [EMAIL PROTECTED] Manoj Srivastava url:mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Mobile, Alabama USAurl:http://www.datasync.com/%7Esrivasta/ -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- On Mon, 26 May 1997, Jim Pick wrote: I agree 100% with what Ian says. (Let's do it) Count a MeToo from here :-) Nils - -- \ /| Nils Rennebarth --* WINDOWS 42 *-- | Schillerstr. 61 / \| 37083 Göttingen | ++49-551-71626 Micro$oft's final answer | http://www.nus.de/~nils -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: 2.6.3i Charset: noconv iQB1AwUBM4nlIVptA0IhBm0NAQFx6wL9FjJmtXmFaFrh8FWph+Oabzngf6Hy64fY KJ5mVasaOXbPqdJqxQRkZDpXD+7ZqQIgtt8sFup3wyV+DduzTxTvzxhjpvMKc5ku xbRB9azeByUX1HEfZj2tMqZuRbwJ5IMP =PRa8 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Ian Jackson) wrote on 26.05.97 in [EMAIL PROTECTED]: What we want is: * `--' always deletes the character to the left of the cursor. * `Delete' always deletes to the right. * `Control'+`H' produces help in Emacs, as before. We want this to be true for the console, for X, and even if you use rlogin or telnet to get from one system to another. Hmm. This only works as long as you don't come from a machine or terminal that uses those keys differently, of course. In which case, relying on terminfo and/or stty is probably the best you can do. * Emacs is programmed to map KB_Backspace or the `stty erase' character to delete-backward-char, and KB_Delete or kdch1 to delete-forward-char, and ^H to help as always. Well, except if ^H happens to be stty erase or kdch1, in which case that assignment should probably have priority. Likewise, delete-backward-char should probably have priority over delete-forward-char, in the (hopefully unlikely) event that they collide. * Some terminals have a `--' key that cannot be made to produce anything except ^H. On these terminals Emacs help will be unavailable (assuming that the `stty erase' character takes precedence in Emacs, and has been set correctly). Emacs won't be unavailable. Emacs help probably will, except if these terminals are able to do an F1. MfG Kai -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Christoph Lameter) wrote on 26.05.97 in [EMAIL PROTECTED]: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED] you wrote: : What we want is: : * `--' always deletes the character to the left of the cursor. : * `Delete' always deletes to the right. : * `Control'+`H' produces help in Emacs, as before. Emacs is one application. We want to use an existing STANDARD not screw up one more. Emacs can be adapted. Please do use existing standards for keyboard layouts and character mapping! Why do you assume that this is _not_ an existing standard? If Ian is right, this is exactly what vt220 does. MfG Kai -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration
Hi, Christoph == Christoph Lameter [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Christoph Emacs is one application. We want to use an existing Christoph STANDARD not screw up one more. Emacs can be Christoph adapted. Please do use existing standards for keyboard Christoph layouts and character mapping! Sorry. In this context STANDARD is also what people percieve the standard to be, not what the bodies say (have we already forgotten what happened to the nice HTML 3.0?) To an extend, a standard unix is one which does not muck up ed, sed, vi, and Emacs, as well as /bin/sh. I think we should not arbitarily ignore defacto standards, or else it shall rebound on us. manoj -- Doubt isn't the opposite of faith; it is an element of faith. Paul Tillich, German theologian and historian Manoj Srivastava url:mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Mobile, Alabama USAurl:http://www.datasync.com/%7Esrivasta/ -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration
I think it covers everything; would you mind floating it before a broader audience though (gnu.emacs.misc perhaps, if not also comp.protocols.x.something?) -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration
Christian == Christian Schwarz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Christian I just read the excellent article Consisten Keyboard Christian Configuration by John F. Bunch in the Linux Journal, Christian issue #38. I read it too, and tried some of the configuration given there. I found that the standard US-Map and a blank Xmodmap worked better than the ones I typed from the article. (INMHO, YMMV) The newest XEmacs, 20.2 (compiled here w/o MULE), works fine for me, in that the backspace key deletes to the left, and delete sucks characters from the right, as you would expect after using a DOS/Windows PC. I used `xkeycaps` to ensure that [-Backspace] sends ^H, and [Delete] sends ^?. I haven't had to load any special libraries to make it work like this, though in my site-start.el, I have: (define-key global-map '(control h) 'backward-delete-char) ... since [F1] works just fine for a help key. :-) -- Karl M. Hegbloom [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.inetarena.com/~karlheg Portland, OR USA Debian GNU 1.2 Linux 2.1.36 AMD K5 PR-133 -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration
Hi, Karl == Karl M Hegbloom [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Karl The newest XEmacs, 20.2 (compiled here w/o MULE), works fine for Karl me, in that the backspace key deletes to the left, and delete Karl sucks characters from the right, as you would expect after using Karl a DOS/Windows PC. I used `xkeycaps` to ensure that Karl [-Backspace] sends ^H, and [Delete] sends ^?. I haven't had to Karl load any special libraries to make it work like this, though in Karl my site-start.el, I have: Karl (define-key global-map '(control h) 'backward-delete-char) Karl since [F1] works just fine for a help key. :-) See, I think this is buggy. I have been using Emacs for nearly a decade now, and nobody takes my C-H default away from me (in other words, people have had exposure to applications like emacs on other Unix platforms (and other distributions of Linux), and they should not have to change their expectations of finding help on C-H just because they run Debian) Change thingslike this around, and see another jihad erupt ;-) manoj feeling like an old dog -- What do you call three lawyers up to their necks in quicksand? Not enough quicksand. Manoj Srivastava url:mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Mobile, Alabama USAurl:http://www.datasync.com/%7Esrivasta/ -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration
On 24 May 1997, Manoj Srivastava wrote: Hi, Karl == Karl M Hegbloom [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Karl The newest XEmacs, 20.2 (compiled here w/o MULE), works fine for Karl me, in that the backspace key deletes to the left, and delete Karl sucks characters from the right, as you would expect after using Karl a DOS/Windows PC. I used `xkeycaps` to ensure that Karl [-Backspace] sends ^H, and [Delete] sends ^?. I haven't had to Karl load any special libraries to make it work like this, though in Karl my site-start.el, I have: Karl (define-key global-map '(control h) 'backward-delete-char) Karl since [F1] works just fine for a help key. :-) See, I think this is buggy. I have been using Emacs for nearly a decade now, and nobody takes my C-H default away from me (in other words, people have had exposure to applications like emacs on other Unix platforms (and other distributions of Linux), and they should not have to change their expectations of finding help on C-H just because they run Debian) Perhaps we can make an exception for stupid emacs (yes, I use it too :-) I just had a look at the article again and it seams as the author silently overrides ^H to behave like Backspace :-) Anyways, I don't want to mess around with different meanings of the Backspace/Delete keys all the time just because the author of Emacs did this mistake! Let me summarize (and please correct me if I'm wrong): 1) everyone agrees that Backspace (the -- key) should delete to the left 2) that Delete (the del key, or Entf for germans :-) should delete the key the cursor is standing on 3) ^H (that is Ctrl-H) should act like Backspace 4) except within emacs, where ^H should bring up the online help Correct? Does someone know if this is possible? If not, I suggest to drop rule 4). Anyways, I'm talking about the default kbd configuration of a Debian system. Everyone is free to override this with his own meaning of some keys. For example, we could ask the user at installation time of the emacs package, whether he/she wants to a) ^H _and_ Backspace to bring up the help screen or b) ^H _and_ Backspace delete the character to the left Of course, some workaround we be good. Change thingslike this around, and see another jihad erupt ;-) Hey, I'm not going to give up that early! BTW, I not talking about implementing the keyboard configuration as described in the LJ article. However, the article is good to understand the concepts of key translation in a Linux system and the problems that arrise with it. Comments? Thanks, Chris -- Christian Schwarz [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], Don't know Perl? [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] Visit PGP-fp: 8F 61 EB 6D CF 23 CA D7 34 05 14 5C C8 DC 22 BA http://www.perl.com http://fatman.mathematik.tu-muenchen.de/~schwarz/ -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Manoj Srivastava [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: See, I think this is buggy. I have been using Emacs for nearly a decade now, and nobody takes my C-H default away from me (in other words, people have had exposure to applications like emacs on other Unix platforms (and other distributions of Linux), and they should not have to change their expectations of finding help on C-H just because they run Debian) But newbies don't expect backspace to give help. (and, except in X, backspace and C-h are rather difficult to separate). In X everyone is happy, of course, with C-h doing help and backspace doing backspace. It's a lot easier for experienced users to put C-h back to help than it is for newbies to make it do backspace. (Of course the real solution is to get a time machine and go back and kill whoever decided that using C-h for a delete key was a smart idea. Anyone got one?)
Re: GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration
On May 24, Christian Schwarz wrote I just read the excellent article Consisten Keyboard Configuration by John F. Bunch in the Linux Journal, issue #38. One of the things I missed in that article was how to get the console and X to use the same composite definitions. On my system, I've made the console keymap VIM-Compatible(R); see Bug #9782. I'd love to see /etc/init.d/boot support multiple keytables (e.g. cat us.map vim-compat.map | loadkeys); this way I could have the composite definition separate from the underlying keyboard. Does anyone know how to get X to use the same composite definitions as the console is using? TIA, Ray -- J.H.M. Dassen | RUMOUR Believe all you hear. Your world may [EMAIL PROTECTED] | not be a better one than the one the blocks | live in but it'll be a sight more vivid. | - The Hipcrime Vocab by Chad C. Mulligan -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration
On Sat, May 24 1997 20:51 +0200 Christian Schwarz writes: snip A agree 110%. Hi folks! I just read the excellent article Consisten Keyboard Configuration by John F. Bunch in the Linux Journal, issue #38. It would be nice if we could specify a keyboard configuration in the Policy Manual. That is: we define how each key should behave in the Debian system and configure all our packages to apply to this standard. In Debian 2.0 each key should perform the same action in a program, no matter if you run it on the console, in an XTerm, or somewhere else (e.g. standalone X program). For example, on my keyboard I can use the up- and down-arrow keys to scroll in less (on the console and in an Xterm), but the PgUp and PgDn keys only work in the Xterm--not on the console. Huh. I have the opposite problem: The end key doens't work in xterms! xterms are in my experience in this regard pathological (opposed to VCs) David -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration
For example, on my keyboard I can use the up- and down-arrow keys to scroll in less (on the console and in an Xterm), but the PgUp and PgDn keys only work in the Xterm--not on the console. Huh. I have the opposite problem: The end key doens't work in xterms! xterms are in my experience in this regard pathological (opposed to VCs) This is all down to the fact that most people making up terminal emulators plump for vt100-ish mappings. Then they discover that real vt100's only have four F-keys, so they go for vt220's. Then they realise that real vt220's don't have a code for F5 (it was the reset), and that the higher F-keys codes make no sense, so they do one of about four things and chaos ensues. Add to that the fact that Unix keyboards almost all generated DEL for Backspace until SysV and Xenix came along and you really start to have fun. All I beg is that we DON'T make Backspace generate ASCII BS (Ctrl-H). Cheers, Phil. -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration
Hi folks! I just read the excellent article Consisten Keyboard Configuration by John F. Bunch in the Linux Journal, issue #38. It would be nice if we could specify a keyboard configuration in the Policy Manual. That is: we define how each key should behave in the Debian system and configure all our packages to apply to this standard. In Debian 2.0 each key should perform the same action in a program, no matter if you run it on the console, in an XTerm, or somewhere else (e.g. standalone X program). For example, on my keyboard I can use the up- and down-arrow keys to scroll in less (on the console and in an Xterm), but the PgUp and PgDn keys only work in the Xterm--not on the console. I suggest that we form a small group of people (3-5 persons) that write a section for the policy manual, adopt the major packages together with their maintainers (kernel keytables, X, etc.), and help the other maintainers to adopt their packages afterwards. Any comments are welcome. Thanks, Chris -- _,, Christian Schwarz / o \__ [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED], ! ___; [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] \ / \\\__/ !PGP-fp: 8F 61 EB 6D CF 23 CA D7 34 05 14 5C C8 DC 22 BA \ / http://fatman.mathematik.tu-muenchen.de/~schwarz/ -.-.,---,-,-..---,-,-.,.-.- DIE ENTE BLEIBT DRAUSSEN! -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
Re: GOAL: Consistent Keyboard Configuration
Hi, But can we get consensus on correct behaviour of keys? (the classic example is the delete-backspace-Control H controversy [for example, I personally want my backspace to delete character backwards *all* the time, and not send C-H, and I don't really care about delete, which would not please some folks] In principle, I agree with the goal, though I prefer an open discussion here first before people go off alone and write policy (and I mean that as a general statement as well). manoj -- When the game-master smiles, it's already too late. Manoj Srivastava url:mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Mobile, Alabama USAurl:http://www.datasync.com/%7Esrivasta/ -- TO UNSUBSCRIBE FROM THIS MAILING LIST: e-mail the word unsubscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Trouble? e-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] .
