Re: Google Summer of Code 2009: is not dunc tank
Obey Arthur Liu dijo [Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 12:03:57PM +0200]: And please don't compare the Summer of Code with Dunc Tank, it's insulting to all the students, mentors and admins involved. Should I remind you all that I'm also a student ? (..long snip...) Not to mention that the GSoC projects are submitted by _anybody who wants to_ and are judged/ranked by all of the DDs (only DDs, right? Anyway, not the main point) that signed up as mentors. And that the funds do not come from Debian itself but from an external organization - Yes, with Debian's blessing and coordination. -- Gunnar Wolf - gw...@gwolf.org - (+52-55)5623-0154 / 1451-2244 PGP key 1024D/8BB527AF 2001-10-23 Fingerprint: 0C79 D2D1 2C4E 9CE4 5973 F800 D80E F35A 8BB5 27AF -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Google Summer of Code 2009: is not dunc tank
Obey Arthur Liu a écrit : Hi folks, ... I am inviting you to debate what you think is cool, what is useful, what is important to Debian, maybe give us pointers to resources or people that could be helpful for the projects. We will try to alter our current rankings to reflect the zeitgeist in Debian, while taking into account the personal information that we have about each student involved. I'm talking on behalf of the Summer of Code admins at Debian. Guys, DDs are spread all over the spectrum on this issue. I believe the majority would err on the side of getting new people involved though. This is also my personal opinion. Since we can't agree, and we tried, almost every year, we decided to strike a balance. Of the 12 shortlisted projects, only *one* is from a DD. Of the 3 all quite good projects presented by DDs, we only accepted *one* after much internal debate. Since all our shortlisted proposals are primary proposals, and we don't have a waitlist because the other proposals are clearly not as good as the ones in our shortlist, if we reject this project, it means we'll request one less slot from Google. Cool, you saved Google some pocket change. Are we going pyrrhic enough ? And please don't compare the Summer of Code with Dunc Tank, it's insulting to all the students, mentors and admins involved. Should I remind you all that I'm also a student ? Dunc Tank was about funding working professionals to work on release-critical stuff that would otherwise have been done exactly the same way. They were paid a sum equivalent to a software engineer's salary. The Summer of Code is about funding students, sometimes undergrads, to not have to go work at McDonalds during the summer but instead work on stuff related to what they are studying. The stipend involved is less than one fourth of what Dunc Tank was all about, for the same work amount and difficulty when you take into account the average experience of our students. The whole setup, with project planning, a mentor, is pedagogical in essence. Anything that is accepted for a Summer of Code is calibrated as to be challenging to the student and have a pedagogical added value. Hell, the student gets passed at the final review if we believe he has completed a reasonable part of the planned objectives, made visible efforts and learned something in the process. This has absolutely *nothing* to do with contract work! Please stop comparing Dunc Tank to the Summer of code. It's just wrong. I did the Summer of Code last year for Debian, and I can tell you that no one, at least in the 2009 run that I'm admining here, is going in with a mercenary thinking. For a change, try to discuss on the technical aspects of the projects, what help you could provide to our students, which question you'd like to ask, etc. That was the point of the mail, not to engage in yet another pointless flamewar. Arthur -- Obey Arthur Liu http://www.milliways.fr signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Google Summer of Code 2009: is not dunc tank
On 10/04/09 at 12:03 +0200, Obey Arthur Liu wrote: And please don't compare the Summer of Code with Dunc Tank, it's insulting to all the students, mentors and admins involved. Should I remind you all that I'm also a student ? Dunc Tank was about funding working professionals to work on release-critical stuff that would otherwise have been done exactly the same way. They were paid a sum equivalent to a software engineer's salary. The Summer of Code is about funding students, sometimes undergrads, to not have to go work at McDonalds during the summer but instead work on stuff related to what they are studying. That's right. But DDs are free to apply to other projects, as are contributors to other projects free to apply to Debian. Please stop comparing Dunc Tank to the Summer of code. It's just wrong. I did the Summer of Code last year for Debian, and I can tell you that no one, at least in the 2009 run that I'm admining here, is going in with a mercenary thinking. Are you implying that the people involved in Dunc Tank were going with a mercenary thinking? Since all our shortlisted proposals are primary proposals, and we don't have a waitlist because the other proposals are clearly not as good as the ones in our shortlist, if we reject this project, it means we'll request one less slot from Google. Cool, you saved Google some pocket change. Are we going pyrrhic enough ? What could be considered fair is, if DDs are involved as students in GSOC, to give the money to Debian instead of giving it to the students (one way or another ; it doesn't need to be a direct Google - SPI transfer). The money could then benefit the project as a whole (through Debconf sponsorship, for example). And it's already the case for mentors: they are not paid, but the $500 (I think) are given to the project (or to Debconf, I think it depends on the mentor). -- | Lucas Nussbaum | lu...@lucas-nussbaum.net http://www.lucas-nussbaum.net/ | | jabber: lu...@nussbaum.fr GPG: 1024D/023B3F4F | -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Google Summer of Code 2009: is not dunc tank
On Fri, Apr 10, 2009 at 12:03:57PM +0200, Obey Arthur Liu wrote: Dunc Tank was about funding working professionals to work on release-critical stuff that would otherwise have been done exactly the same way. False. They were paid a sum equivalent to a software engineer's salary. False. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Google Summer of Code 2009: is not dunc tank
Lucas Nussbaum a écrit : That's right. But DDs are free to apply to other projects, as are contributors to other projects free to apply to Debian. DDs are free to go where they want, but I wouldn't be happy with a rule, written or unsaid, that banned DDs outright from Debian. We have a Gnome board member in the shortlist. Did you notice it ? :) Please stop comparing Dunc Tank to the Summer of code. It's just wrong. I did the Summer of Code last year for Debian, and I can tell you that no one, at least in the 2009 run that I'm admining here, is going in with a mercenary thinking. Are you implying that the people involved in Dunc Tank were going with a mercenary thinking? I have my personal opinion on Dunc Tank. People criticizing Dunc Tank criticize the mercenary aspect of it. When they compare Dunc Tank to something, they are applying their opinion on Dunc Tank on it. The feelings towards the individuals involved in Dunc Tank are irrelevant at this point when considering feelings about Dunc Tank. The concept has taken a life of its own. What could be considered fair is, if DDs are involved as students in GSOC, to give the money to Debian instead of giving it to the students (one way or another ; it doesn't need to be a direct Google - SPI transfer). The money could then benefit the project as a whole (through Debconf sponsorship, for example). And it's already the case for mentors: they are not paid, but the $500 (I think) are given to the project (or to Debconf, I think it depends on the mentor). That's a novel idea. It's worth discussing, but it's way too late at this point for this year. I haven't heard of any other organization implementing this though. Arthur -- Obey Arthur Liu http://www.milliways.fr signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Google Summer of Code 2009: is not dunc tank
* Lucas Nussbaum lu...@lucas-nussbaum.net [2009-04-10 15:10]: What could be considered fair is, if DDs are involved as students in GSOC, to give the money to Debian instead of giving it to the students I think this is so unreasonable it's not even funny. So it's okay for non-DD students to accept money but suddenly when you're part of Debian you're no longer allowed to do so? What about DCs? Where do you want to draw the line? Maybe the DD in question should temporarily resign and then become a DD again after GSoC? (no, I'm not serious) Anyway, I think this debate is a total waste of time because it's much too late. After all, we had DDs as GSoC students before. -- Martin Michlmayr http://www.cyrius.com/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: [Soc-coordination] Google Summer of Code 2009: is not dunc tank
On 10/04/09 at 18:05 +0200, Obey Arthur Liu wrote: Lucas Nussbaum a écrit : That's right. But DDs are free to apply to other projects, as are contributors to other projects free to apply to Debian. DDs are free to go where they want, but I wouldn't be happy with a rule, written or unsaid, that banned DDs outright from Debian. We have a Gnome board member in the shortlist. Did you notice it ? :) I don't have a problem with people from project X being students in GSOC for project Y (with X != Y), even if I would prefer that true newcomers were preferred. It's an interesting way to promote collaboration between projects. What could be considered fair is, if DDs are involved as students in GSOC, to give the money to Debian instead of giving it to the students (one way or another ; it doesn't need to be a direct Google - SPI transfer). The money could then benefit the project as a whole (through Debconf sponsorship, for example). And it's already the case for mentors: they are not paid, but the $500 (I think) are given to the project (or to Debconf, I think it depends on the mentor). That's a novel idea. It's worth discussing, but it's way too late at this point for this year. Ah? -- | Lucas Nussbaum | lu...@lucas-nussbaum.net http://www.lucas-nussbaum.net/ | | jabber: lu...@nussbaum.fr GPG: 1024D/023B3F4F | -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: [Soc-coordination] Google Summer of Code 2009: is not dunc tank
On 10 April 2009 at 18:05, Obey Arthur Liu wrote: | Lucas Nussbaum a crit : | What could be considered fair is, if DDs are involved as students in | GSOC, to give the money to Debian instead of giving it to the students [...] | That's a novel idea. It's worth discussing, but it's way too late at | this point for this year. I haven't heard of any other organization | implementing this though. Of the four GSoC 2008 mentors for the R Project, two decided to pocket the money and two let it flow through to the R Foundation. Interestingly enough that was also a clear split by continent (and I mean residency here): the two from Europe kept it, the two from North Americans passed it on. I rather not comment on this thread itself. Arthur essentially already said what needed to be said. Dirk 2008 GSoC mentor at Debian and R Project 2009 GSoC mentor at R Project (pending final slot allocation) -- Three out of two people have difficulties with fractions. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
