Re: Re: Gratituous dependences among packages
What purpose is served by the existence of kde (the metapackage)? kde is the package which administrators who want to try KDE should generally install. Is there a reason why not to clarify its meaning by renaming it as 'kde-full' kde doesn't depend on the full KDE (for example, it doesn't depend on KDevelop). and having a 'kde-slim' package which includes the entire kde minus development, games, texlive and other heavyweights? I think it's late to suggest it. For the development packages, that is kdewebdev, see #401862, which is solved in experimental. kde will recommend kdewebdev. Maybe it should be downgraded further to a suggestion. The tex issue will be resolved with okular replacing kdvi, which should happen during squeeze's development. That leaves games, but I don't think it's worth creating a new metapackage for that. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Gratituous dependences among packages
On Fri, 2009-03-20 at 22:11 +0100, Ana Guerrero wrote: > On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 08:33:55PM +0200, Omer Zak wrote: > > My wish is that modularization of Debian packages be improved. It means > > that it'll be possible to uninstall all games in a PC and continue to > > have functioning KDE. Likewise - TeX. > > kde is a metapackage that includes _all_ KDE that is not related to > development. If you just want a functional KDE without games and related > stuff look at kde-core. Then you can install what you want else using the > modules > metapackages (kdemultimedia, kdenetwork, kdeadmin) or just the application > you are missing. Thanks, Ana, relying upon kde-core instead of the kde meta-package fixed my problem. The question is then if, where and how to improve documentation and user instructions so that people won't find themselves in a similar situation unless they want so. What purpose is served by the existence of kde (the metapackage)? Is there a reason why not to clarify its meaning by renaming it as 'kde-full' and having a 'kde-slim' package which includes the entire kde minus development, games, texlive and other heavyweights? And in the package descriptions, document clearly what each metapackage installs/omits. (It may well be the case that the subject was discussed in the past, but if games and texlive were lighter then, then I hope it's OK to raise again the subject.) --- Omer -- Every good master plan involves building a time machine. Moshe Zadka My own blog is at http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/ My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone. They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which I may be affiliated in any way. WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Gratituous dependences among packages
On Sat, Mar 21, 2009 at 6:11 AM, Ana Guerrero wrote: > kde is a metapackage that includes _all_ KDE that is not related to > development. If you just want a functional KDE without games and related > stuff look at kde-core. Then you can install what you want else using the > modules > metapackages (kdemultimedia, kdenetwork, kdeadmin) or just the application > you are missing. I'm of the opinion that generally meta-packages should use Recommends rather than Depends. texlive-fonts-recommended dependencies might need to be relaxed to Recommends too? -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Gratituous dependences among packages
On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 08:33:55PM +0200, Omer Zak wrote: > At the encouragement of Luk Claes, I would like to raise this subject in > the general mailing list. > > It has been my impression that when using aptitude and requesting to > install/upgrade desktops (KDE, maybe also Gnome), several other > packages, which don't interest me, are installed as well. They cause a > bloat to the installation and longer upgrade times in the future. > > I agree with Luk that it is reasonable to recommend the installation of > games, texlive-* and other goodies with packages like KDE and Gnome. My > problem is that the desktop packages REQUIRE the cruft. > > Example: > kde depends on kdegraphics (will be broken without this dependence) > kdegraphics depends upon kdvi (will be broken without this dependence) > kdvi depends upon some texlive-* packages > > So satisfying those dependences would pull in lots of texlive stuff, > even if one has no need for TeX related files. > > My wish is that modularization of Debian packages be improved. It means > that it'll be possible to uninstall all games in a PC and continue to > have functioning KDE. Likewise - TeX. kde is a metapackage that includes _all_ KDE that is not related to development. If you just want a functional KDE without games and related stuff look at kde-core. Then you can install what you want else using the modules metapackages (kdemultimedia, kdenetwork, kdeadmin) or just the application you are missing. Ana -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Gratituous dependences among packages
hi, On Fri, Mar 20, 2009 at 08:33:55PM +0200, Omer Zak wrote: > My wish is that modularization of Debian packages be improved. It means > that it'll be possible to uninstall all games in a PC and continue to > have functioning KDE. Likewise - TeX. in cases where it can function without the extra package, a Recommends: is more appropriate than a Depends: and can give you a system where you have this option (i.e. for most users apt brings in recommends by default, but you can opt out of that or later remove the packages). I don't know enough about this specific context, but if you indeed feel this is the case with packages that you encounter, you're encouraged to file wishlist bugs asking dependencies to be downgraded to recommends. sean signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Gratituous dependences among packages
At the encouragement of Luk Claes, I would like to raise this subject in the general mailing list. It has been my impression that when using aptitude and requesting to install/upgrade desktops (KDE, maybe also Gnome), several other packages, which don't interest me, are installed as well. They cause a bloat to the installation and longer upgrade times in the future. I agree with Luk that it is reasonable to recommend the installation of games, texlive-* and other goodies with packages like KDE and Gnome. My problem is that the desktop packages REQUIRE the cruft. Example: kde depends on kdegraphics (will be broken without this dependence) kdegraphics depends upon kdvi (will be broken without this dependence) kdvi depends upon some texlive-* packages So satisfying those dependences would pull in lots of texlive stuff, even if one has no need for TeX related files. My wish is that modularization of Debian packages be improved. It means that it'll be possible to uninstall all games in a PC and continue to have functioning KDE. Likewise - TeX. --- Omer On Fri, 2009-03-20 at 16:56 +0100, Luk Claes wrote: > Omer Zak wrote: > > Some examples which I have for extraneous dependencies between packages: > > 1. KDE seems to be indirectly dependent upon all kinds of computer > > games. > > Well I guess it's quite natural for a desktop environment to include > these games. Though feel free to discuss this on debian-devel. > > > 2. There is a KDE package, which depends upon texlive-*, but an earlier > > version did not depend upon it. In a PC with Lenny Debian, I had to pin > > that package because of a problem I had with a texlive-* package. > > Are you sure it depends on it? It probably Recommends it and recommended > package get installed by default. > > > In future packages, I'd like to see all those extraneous dependences > > being turned off. Games should be installed only if people explicitly > > ask them. And texlive-* stuff should be installed only if a KDE user > > needs the relevant feature/s. > > I think you should discuss the texlive recommends with the package > maintainer that Recommends them. > > While you might be right that it should be easy to install a desktop > environment without games and other gratitous dependencies or > recommends, I think the default of installing them is not bad. > > Though please discuss all this in the open on the debian-devel mailing > list as there is not much we Release Managers can do about them. -- You haven't made an impact on the world before you caused a Debian release to be named after Snufkin. My own blog is at http://www.zak.co.il/tddpirate/ My opinions, as expressed in this E-mail message, are mine alone. They do not represent the official policy of any organization with which I may be affiliated in any way. WARNING TO SPAMMERS: at http://www.zak.co.il/spamwarning.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
