Re: I hereby resign as secretary
Manoj Srivastava writes (I hereby resign as secretary): I am hereby resigning as secretary, effective immediately. I'd just like to join all the other people saying that it's sad that we have come to this. As you know I haven't always agreed with your decisions :-) but they have always seemed to be me to be taken in good faith and with the best will. Please don't leave us completely and I hope we can try to make Debian a more pleasant place. Ian. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: I hereby resign as secretary
I absolutely AOL What Kale said: /me too! Kalle Kivimaa wrote: Manoj Srivastava sriva...@debian.org writes: As to the people who emailed me that they are putting together a petition for the DAM to have me removed from the project, WHAT?? Could these people step up please and tell us WHY you consider expelling Manoj from Debian would be a good thing? Feel free to use -private if you think your reasonings shouldn't be public. Thanks Manoj for your work as the Secretary. I've not always agreed with your decisions but I acknowledge that the post is a difficult one and you've been committed to do the best job you can - and it has been a very good job on the whole. -- ·''`.There's no arguing with Nature. : :' :Promises comfort fools. `. `'All work and no play, makes Jack a dull boy. `- Proudly running Debian GNU/Linux -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: I hereby resign as secretary
On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 04:13:37PM +, Michael Banck wrote: On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:00:26PM +0100, Pierre Habouzit wrote: On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 08:44:11AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: As to the people who emailed me that they are putting together a petition for the DAM to have me removed from the project, I hear you too. I am going to spend the next few days evaluating how important the project is to me, and whether I should save you the bother or an expulsion process. Huh, who talked about expelling Manoj !? Doesn't the above paragraph imply that? Right, I skipped it at first read. I was quite shocked, even if I'm among Manoj detractors wrt his work as secretary for the last vote, I see absolutely no reason for an expulsion. That's just silly. -- ·O· Pierre Habouzit ··Omadco...@debian.org OOOhttp://www.madism.org pgpI8XMOBMZcr.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: I hereby resign as secretary
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:57:06PM -0600, John Goerzen wrote: Well, I haven't left, but I do far less with Debian now than I used to. It is still my preferred OS for a variety of reasons. (...) I get no joy whatsoever out of the current mailing list discussions. (...) We're here to make a Free operating system, dammit. People that are not here to make a Free operating system shouldn't be here. I have considered leaving the project several times this year. The fun of being a Debian developer went away long ago. I maintain packages for my own utility now, at home and at work, and that's it. I do recognise in me the same symptoms as those you describe. I haven't really analysed much to have an opinion on whether I ascribe them to the same causes as you or not. Several of my DD friends have solved the problem by unsubscribing from d-de...@l.d.o, d-v...@l.d.o, etc. -- Lionel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: I hereby resign as secretary
The problem is you can't wave a magic wand, and fix the community. It's a self-feeding cycle which goes on and on and on. Even if we had a Code of Conduct for Debian, unless it was strongly enforced, its the same problem. Whether the ballot was valid or not was immaterial, the response to it was clearly inappropriate. If we flamed people to hell and called for their removal for every mistake, we won't have a single developer or user left. Maybe its worth considering adopting a CoC for Debian, and actually enforcing it, but that's someone for the community to decide, should we ever get past flaming each other to get something done. Michael On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 3:18 AM, Lionel Elie Mamane lio...@mamane.lu wrote: On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:57:06PM -0600, John Goerzen wrote: Well, I haven't left, but I do far less with Debian now than I used to. It is still my preferred OS for a variety of reasons. (...) I get no joy whatsoever out of the current mailing list discussions. (...) We're here to make a Free operating system, dammit. People that are not here to make a Free operating system shouldn't be here. I have considered leaving the project several times this year. The fun of being a Debian developer went away long ago. I maintain packages for my own utility now, at home and at work, and that's it. I do recognise in me the same symptoms as those you describe. I haven't really analysed much to have an opinion on whether I ascribe them to the same causes as you or not. Several of my DD friends have solved the problem by unsubscribing from d-de...@l.d.o, d-v...@l.d.o, etc. -- Lionel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
poisoned atmosphere (Re: I hereby resign as secretary)
Hi John, very well said, thanks. I suggest everyone to go back and read his mail. http://www.jonobacon.org/?p=1483 is also a nice read about what working together nicely can achieve. I miss that in Debian. I have now decided to unsubscribe from -vote and -devel, the gain/pain ratio has become totally unacceptable for me. I guess -project will follow soon. cheers, Holger signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: poisoned atmosphere (Re: I hereby resign as secretary)
On Fri, 19 Dec 2008, Holger Levsen wrote: I have now decided to unsubscribe from -vote and -devel, the gain/pain ratio has become totally unacceptable for me. I guess -project will follow soon. I wished such flamewars could be fighted at -project and -devel would be free for what it was intended for. I would also love if somebody would know a trick to move every posting which follows the 10th posting of a single thread to /dev/null. A thread with more then 10 mails does most probably not contain any additional information accoding to my observation. Kind regards Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Re: I hereby resign as secretary
Now if only we could say positive things about people BEFORE they resign, wouldn't this be a better place? +1E6 John, thank you for taking the time to write and post that note. I couldn't agree more. When Manoj and I joined the Debian project, there were only a couple dozen of us, and we indeed had a very different and more positive atmosphere. That was a different time, and in some senses a very different place. It might therefore be easy to accept the idea that things have changed and that as a result we just have to live with the current situation. I don't believe that. Those of you who know me know that I've never believed that. There is a quote from Margaret Mead that I often include in the presentation materials when I've giving public talks that I think deserves repeating here: Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world; indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. I've often used this quote to help explain why Free Software has been as successful as it has been to date. I think it also applies here. Each of us, individually, must accept personal responsibility for the contribution we make to the overall Debian project atmosphere. The only way we can get things back on track and re-focus our energy on the real reason we are all here... to create a free operating system... is to assume that each of us has the power to change things and make them better! In hockey, there is a statistic kept about each player. If they are on the ice when a goal is scored by their team, they get a plus one. If they are on the ice when a goal is scored against their team, they get a minus one. In this way, there is a rough measure of whether having that player on the ice was an overall benefit or detriment to the team. Players with a big positive number are highly valued, players with a big negative number are likely to get traded or not have their contracts renewed for another season. We don't really have metrics as crisp as goals scored by and against us in the Debian project. But I believe that each of us has the responsibility to keep a personal plus/minus tally in our heads about our own participation in the project. If we all do that, and all work hard to make sure our personal participation is a net benefit to the project, then I honestly believe we can and will achieve better results. Bdale -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: I hereby resign as secretary
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:00:26PM +0100, Pierre Habouzit wrote: On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 08:44:11AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: As to the people who emailed me that they are putting together a petition for the DAM to have me removed from the project, I hear you too. I am going to spend the next few days evaluating how important the project is to me, and whether I should save you the bother or an expulsion process. Huh, who talked about expelling Manoj !? Doesn't the above paragraph imply that? Michael, skipping the expel vs. expulse joke -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Re: I hereby resign as secretary
On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 07:47:50AM -0700, Bdale Garbee wrote: project atmosphere. The only way we can get things back on track and re-focus our energy on the real reason we are all here... to create a free operating system... I believe that part of the problem is that we are not all here to create a free operating system. I have the impression that some developers merely wish to create an operating system, or perhaps a 'free-enough-for-me' operating system. Thanks Ian -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: I hereby resign as secretary
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 08:44:11AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: As to the people who emailed me that they are putting together a petition for the DAM to have me removed from the project, I hear you too. I am going to spend the next few days evaluating how important the project is to me, and whether I should save you the bother or an expulsion process. Hi Manoj, I'm not going to argue on your decision to resign as secretary, because I understand how hard it must have been to go through all this pressure just to do what is, in your judgement, your obligation in this position [1]. OTOH, triing to have you removed from the project looks a lot like a purely emotional response, which IMO cannot be justified even if we take as granted that you acted irresponsibly as secretary (which, btw, I don't). Because this response is completely unjustified, I'd like to ask that you don't vindicate them as you suggest you would. Please force them to go through it themselves. Force them to provide non-sense arguments to the DAM, and to make up silly excuses for everyone to read. In the end, they'll make fools of themselves no matter if they succeed or not, and I believe it's what they deserve. Let them make their own karma. [1] For those who believe that I'm an uncompromising zealot (you guys know who you are ;-) ), notice that I vocally disagreed with Manoj's decision not to split the votes in separate ballots. This doesn't change anything I said in this mail, nor make me feel that his decisions as secretary are somehow illegitimate. -- Robert Millan The DRM opt-in fallacy: Your data belongs to us. We will decide when (and how) you may access your data; but nobody's threatening your freedom: we still allow you to remove your data and not access it at all. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Re: I hereby resign as secretary
On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 05:04:55PM +, Ian Lynagh wrote: project atmosphere. The only way we can get things back on track and re-focus our energy on the real reason we are all here... to create a free operating system... I believe that part of the problem is that we are not all here to create a free operating system. I have the impression that some developers merely wish to create an operating system, or perhaps a 'free-enough-for-me' operating system. OTOH, it seems to me that there are people with varying degrees of pragmatism. I believe that we are all here to create a free operating system. However, there are those for whom an imperfect release is better than no release at all, while there are others who believe that if the release can't be made 100% free then it is not ready. Personally, I'm quite happy to stand in the former group. While I believe that shipping non-free blobs is distasteful and unfortunate, I believe that our users are better served by timely and functional releases. But then again, I also believe it to be insane that we don't allow ourselves to include, for example, RFCs as a part of our OS. Clearly I'm not a true supporter of free software. /sarcasm noah signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Freedom and pragmatism (was: I hereby resign as secretary)
Noah Meyerhans no...@debian.org writes: On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 05:04:55PM +, Ian Lynagh wrote: I believe that part of the problem is that we are not all here to create a free operating system. I have the impression that some developers merely wish to create an operating system, or perhaps a 'free-enough-for-me' operating system. OTOH, it seems to me that there are people with varying degrees of pragmatism. That implies a (lamentably common) false dichotomy. Free software goals *are* pragmatic goals. They directly affect how we interact with the digital information that infuses our lives; essential freedom in that sphere is a highly pragmatic goal. There may be reasons that compel us to reduce our freedom, and they may also be described as “pragmatic”. But it's wrong to imply that those who strive for freedom don't do so for very pragmatic reasons. -- \“We cannot solve our problems with the same thinking we used | `\ when we created them.” —Albert Einstein | _o__) | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: Freedom and pragmatism (was: I hereby resign as secretary)
On Sat, Dec 20, 2008 at 09:02:04AM +1100, Ben Finney wrote: OTOH, it seems to me that there are people with varying degrees of pragmatism. That implies a (lamentably common) false dichotomy. Free software goals *are* pragmatic goals. They directly affect how we interact with the digital information that infuses our lives; essential freedom in that sphere is a highly pragmatic goal. There may be reasons that compel us to reduce our freedom, and they may also be described as ???pragmatic???. But it's wrong to imply that those who strive for freedom don't do so for very pragmatic reasons. Of course there are pragmatic reasons for developing and evangelizing free software. If there weren't, we really would be just a bunch of fanatics. At the moment, I am most concerned with releasing lenny, and I believe that our users are not well served by continued delays. Looking back at the GR from 2006 regarding sourceless firmware in the kernel, it's clear that most of us want the issue to be resolved. However, it's also clear from the state of things today that there aren't enough people with the required skills and the motivation to resolve it. This appears to be the case both in Debian and upstream. If this was not true, then people would have worked to resolve the firmware issue in the kernel long before it became a release blocker. We can't force the people with the required skills to spend time on something for which they otherwise have no motivation. I suppose, then, that what I'm advocating is yet another compromise. It's difficult to compromise on our ideals, but I believe that continuing to delay releases over this issue is frustrating our developers and users alike. noah signature.asc Description: Digital signature
I hereby resign as secretary
Hi folks, I am hereby resigning as secretary, effective immediately. I was planning on leaving the office soon, anyway, but I had a rewrite of Devotee underway, which would have made the software more useful for different people (different checks --LDAP.gpg. and others), and allowed Devotee to be packaged as essentially a perl library, with vote protocols being perl scripts (debian-vote --config gr_lenny.cfg). But that is no longer a compelling reason to stay on. In the years I have spent in this role since Darren left us, I have tried to conduct the votes as I saw the rquirements of the constitution, and the limitations of the voting software. But this not a view shared by very many people. I concede that I have made mistakes with the current set of votes. And the arguments being made now, after the vote was called and started, are fairly compelling. But these arguments could have been made when the vote page went up, when I was sending in the emails about which option had how many seconds, or when the draft ballot was sent in. There are, in my opinion, far more cogent arguments being offered now, than there were in the discussion period, and had these being made earlier, we would not have come to this pass. But that is merely an excuse. The buck fir running votes stops at the secretary, so I am ultimately responsible for the current state of the vote. And I am begnning to see that the ballot was wrong. Mistakes happen. Mistakes can be recovered from. What can not, however, is relationships, and trust, and this works both ways. It has been made clear to me that the project no longer trusts me, and many consider that I have been the epitome of sleaze over the years, manipulating votes for my own ends. That hurts. I have also read planet. The amount of vitriol there makes it untenable for me to participate in any efforts to recover from this mess. Life is too short. This is way too much stress at a point in my life where there is too much stress to deal with. I am asking the DSA to remove me from the debvote group, effective now. As to the people who emailed me that they are putting together a petition for the DAM to have me removed from the project, I hear you too. I am going to spend the next few days evaluating how important the project is to me, and whether I should save you the bother or an expulsion process. While I must say that the mistake for this ballot lies at my door, I am very distressed at the amount of vitriol that saturates the project communication channels now. Subjectively, this seems worse now than the flame filled days of yore -- because, back then, despite the apparent flames, people used to be amicable and friendly with the people they occasionally had heated discussion with. That seems to have passed, with real meanness being far more prevalent than before. Any way. Goodbye, and thanks for all the fish. manoj -- Freedom from incrustation of grime is contiguous to rectitude. Manoj Srivastava sriva...@debian.org http://www.debian.org/~srivasta/ 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C pgpMeGlL4BYCP.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: I hereby resign as secretary
- Manoj Srivastava sriva...@debian.org wrote: I am hereby resigning as secretary, effective immediately. I was planning on leaving the office soon, anyway, but I had a rewrite of Devotee underway, which would have made the software more useful for different people (different checks --LDAP.gpg. and others), and allowed Devotee to be packaged as essentially a perl library, with vote protocols being perl scripts (debian-vote --config gr_lenny.cfg). But that is no longer a compelling reason to stay on. Man, what a drag. I appreciate that you are between a rock and a hard place with this one. Thanks for the hard work. I'm mighty curious who wants to sign up for this beating next. -- Ean Schuessler, CTO Brainfood.com e...@brainfood.com - http://www.brainfood.com - 214-720-0700 x 315 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: I hereby resign as secretary
On 2008-12-18, Manoj Srivastava sriva...@debian.org wrote: As to the people who emailed me that they are putting together a petition for the DAM to have me removed from the project, I hear you too. I don't like this. I am going to spend the next few days evaluating how important the project is to me, and whether I should save you the bother or an expulsion process. And I think you are important to the project. /Sune While I must say that the mistake for this ballot lies at my door, I am very distressed at the amount of vitriol that saturates the project communication channels now. Subjectively, this seems worse now than the flame filled days of yore -- because, back then, despite the apparent flames, people used to be amicable and friendly with the people they occasionally had heated discussion with. That seems to have passed, with real meanness being far more prevalent than before. Any way. Goodbye, and thanks for all the fish. manoj =2D-=20 Freedom from incrustation of grime is contiguous to rectitude. Manoj Srivastava sriva...@debian.org http://www.debian.org/~srivasta/= =20=20 1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B 924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C --=-=-= Content-Type: application/pgp-signature --=-=-=-- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: I hereby resign as secretary
On Thu Dec 18 08:44, Manoj Srivastava wrote: I am hereby resigning as secretary, effective immediately Thank you for your hard work in this post. I'm sorry to see that a few zealots can cause so many hard working folks to consider leaving the project. Personally, if we are to do without anyone it is not the people I see resigning or considering resignation that I would rather see leave. Please ignore those people who are asking for your removal from the project. Whatever their feelings about how you have managed the role of project secretary any suggestion that you should leave the project is completely untenable. It's a ridiculous suggestion and I am shocked that anyone would entertain the thought. Matt -- Matthew Johnson signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: I hereby resign as secretary
Hi Dne Thu, 18 Dec 2008 08:44:11 -0600 Manoj Srivastava sriva...@debian.org napsal(a): I am hereby resigning as secretary, effective immediately. Thanks for your hard work! As to the people who emailed me that they are putting together a petition for the DAM to have me removed from the project, I don't see reason for this. Everybody can make a mistake and single mistake can not be reason for removing from the project. I hear you too. I am going to spend the next few days evaluating how important the project is to me, and whether I should save you the bother or an expulsion process. Make the decision with care, the emotions will hopefully calm down. -- Michal Čihař | http://cihar.com | http://blog.cihar.com signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: I hereby resign as secretary
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 08:44:11AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: Hi folks, I am hereby resigning as secretary, effective immediately. I was planning on leaving the office soon, anyway, but I had a rewrite of Devotee underway, which would have made the software more useful for different people (different checks --LDAP.gpg. and others), and allowed Devotee to be packaged as essentially a perl library, with vote protocols being perl scripts (debian-vote --config gr_lenny.cfg). But that is no longer a compelling reason to stay on. Thank you. I (along with many others, I know) appreciate your efforts over many years of work as Project Secretary. But now it's time to pass that torch on to somebody else. As to the people who emailed me that they are putting together a petition for the DAM to have me removed from the project, I hear you too. I am going to spend the next few days evaluating how important the project is to me, and whether I should save you the bother or an expulsion process. :-( While we may have had disagreements about votes very recently, I sincerely hope that you will decide to continue within the project as a whole. I think any suggestion of an expulsion is utterly absurd. I hope that you will carry on with your work in other parts of Debian where you have made valuable contributions over the years, but of course that's your decision to make. Go, take some time off in peace and work out what you want to do in future. -- Steve McIntyre, Debian Project Leader lea...@debian.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: I hereby resign as secretary
Manoj, This is very unfortunate for Debian. You diligently adhered to the Constitution in the face of rabid criticism from a few loudmouths who were too lazy to resolve their concerns about poorly worded proposals at the appropriate time. Sadly, by this action you have only encouraged the jackals who delight in ruining the Debian experience for the majority. --Mike Bird -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: I hereby resign as secretary
also sprach Manoj Srivastava sriva...@debian.org [2008.12.18.1544 +0100]: As to the people who emailed me that they are putting together a petition for the DAM to have me removed from the project, I hear you too. I am going to spend the next few days evaluating how important the project is to me, and whether I should save you the bother or an expulsion process. To those people: you suck. To Manoj: thanks for your hard work, I hope you won't leave us. I appreciate your innovativeness in so many areas. And whom else could I wind up with unofficial IDs then? :) To DSA: if you were to remove Manoj due to this petition, remove me right along. I certainly wouldn't want to be part of this project anymore. To the loud people responsible for all this crap: try to fix a bug for every time you write a mail to our lists. Actually, just fix the bug, please. -- .''`. martin f. krafft madd...@d.o Related projects: : :' : proud Debian developer http://debiansystem.info `. `'` http://people.debian.org/~madduckhttp://vcs-pkg.org `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing systems es ist gut, eine sache doppelt auszudrücken und ihr einen rechten und linken fuß zu geben. auf einem bein kann die wahrheit zwar stehen; mit zweien aber wird sie gehen und herumkommen. -- friedrich nietzsche digital_signature_gpg.asc Description: Digital signature (see http://martin-krafft.net/gpg/)
Re: I hereby resign as secretary
Manoj Srivastava sriva...@debian.org writes: As to the people who emailed me that they are putting together a petition for the DAM to have me removed from the project, WHAT?? Could these people step up please and tell us WHY you consider expelling Manoj from Debian would be a good thing? Feel free to use -private if you think your reasonings shouldn't be public. Thanks Manoj for your work as the Secretary. I've not always agreed with your decisions but I acknowledge that the post is a difficult one and you've been committed to do the best job you can - and it has been a very good job on the whole. -- * Sufficiently advanced magic is indistinguishable from technology (T.P) * * PGP public key available @ http://www.iki.fi/killer * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: I hereby resign as secretary
On 11603 March 1977, Manoj Srivastava wrote: I am hereby resigning as secretary, effective immediately. :( Sorry to hear that. Whoever is your follower *will* have a hard time. As to the people who emailed me that they are putting together a petition for the DAM to have me removed from the project, I hear you too. I am going to spend the next few days evaluating how important the project is to me, and whether I should save you the bother or an expulsion process. There haven't been such a request yet. Honestly, I can't imagine strong enough arguments to open such a process. While there certainly has been a lot of discussion around the last vote and its ballot and whatnot, that alone wouldn't, IMO, suffice to forcefully kick you out of Debian. I do hope you continue working in Debian, even if the work you chose will be very different to the one you did in the past. -- bye, Joerg exa look i can't afford to to any more work without becoming a DD pgpxGzaHeQqu9.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: I hereby resign as secretary
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 08:44:11AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: I am hereby resigning as secretary, effective immediately. Thank you for all the good work you've done in that position over the years. As to the people who emailed me that they are putting together a petition for the DAM to have me removed from the project, I hear you too. I am going to spend the next few days evaluating how important the project is to me, and whether I should save you the bother or an expulsion process. I would just like to go on record that if Manoj is expelled from the project due to the recent events, then I will resign. Fortunately, it seems that it won't be necessary. -- Antti-Juhani Kaijanaho, Jyväskylä, Finland http://antti-juhani.kaijanaho.fi/newblog/ http://www.flickr.com/photos/antti-juhani/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: I hereby resign as secretary
Manoj Srivastava wrote: I am hereby resigning as secretary, effective immediately. Thank you very much for your work in such a difficult role for so long. Debian is certainly a better project for your efforts. Mistakes happen. Mistakes can be recovered from. What can not, however, is relationships, and trust, and this works both ways. It has been made clear to me that the project no longer trusts me, and many consider that I have been the epitome of sleaze over the years, manipulating votes for my own ends. That hurts. I have also read planet. The amount of vitriol there makes it untenable for me to participate in any efforts to recover from this mess. I, for one, have never felt that you have gamed the system for your own ends. I believe that you have always done your personal best to be as fair as possible. I believe that you understand the nature of your past role as Secretary and tried to be as open as you could in the process. I trust you. I believe that a large portion of the project trusts you, also. As to the people who emailed me that they are putting together a petition for the DAM to have me removed from the project, I hear you too. I am going to spend the next few days evaluating how important the project is to me, and whether I should save you the bother or an expulsion process. The project would suffer greatly if you left. At a conference long ago, I got a chance to sit with Ian Murdock[1]. One of the slides the presenter had was a bunch of penguins surrounding and looking on one that was laying down. The presenter used this slide to indicate that Linux users will help their fallen comrade. The presenter went on to say that it looked like the penguins, as pictured, were eating their young. That is when Ian pointed out to me how true that was in the Linux community. I wonder if Debian is exemplifying this behavior. A lot of good people have retired lately. It is starting to feel like that block of homes that has one too many For Sale signs. Why is everyone leaving? What is so bad about the area? What do they know that I don't? -- John H. Robinson, IV jaq...@debian.org http WARNING: I cannot be held responsible for the above, sbih.org ( )(:[ as apparently my cats have learned how to type. spiders.html [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ian_Murdock -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: I hereby resign as secretary
Manoj, As one of the few people around who has been part of the Debian project as long as you have, please accept my sincere appreciation for your long history of meaningful contributions... and in particular your lengthy and honorable service as our secretary! You have earned and retain my immense respect, and I look forward to continuing to work with you to advance our shared interest in Free Software. Pursuant to section 7.2 of the Debian Constitution, I acknowledge that as the current Chairman of the Technical Committee I now also serve as Acting Secretary until such time as our DPL delegates a new Secretary. Bdale -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: I hereby resign as secretary
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 11:44:34AM -0700, Bdale Garbee wrote: As one of the few people around who has been part of the Debian project as long as you have, please accept my sincere appreciation for your long history of meaningful contributions... and in particular your lengthy and honorable service as our secretary! You have earned and retain my immense respect, and I look forward to continuing to work with you to advance our shared interest in Free Software. +1 Manoj, a lot of years ago we had some lengthy discussions and still (?) work together on this distribution. Isn't this possible anymore? The style of discussion seems to have deteriorated. I cannot see any reason for people to bring up an expulsion process. I hope you stay around Manoj. Michael -- Michael Meskes Michael at Fam-Meskes dot De, Michael at Meskes dot (De|Com|Net|Org) Michael at BorussiaFan dot De, Meskes at (Debian|Postgresql) dot Org ICQ: 179140304, AIM/Yahoo: michaelmeskes, Jabber: mes...@jabber.org Go VfL Borussia! Go SF 49ers! Use Debian GNU/Linux! Use PostgreSQL! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: I hereby resign as secretary
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 06:27:15PM +, Antti-Juhani Kaijanaho wrote: On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 08:44:11AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: I am hereby resigning as secretary, effective immediately. Thank you for all the good work you've done in that position over the years. As to the people who emailed me that they are putting together a petition for the DAM to have me removed from the project, I hear you too. I am going to spend the next few days evaluating how important the project is to me, and whether I should save you the bother or an expulsion process. I would just like to go on record that if Manoj is expelled from the project due to the recent events, then I will resign. Fortunately, it seems that it won't be necessary. Huh, who talked about expelling Manoj !? -- ·O· Pierre Habouzit ··Omadco...@debian.org OOOhttp://www.madism.org pgphIHHMAeR9Y.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: I hereby resign as secretary
Manoj Srivastava sriva...@debian.org writes: In the years I have spent in this role since Darren left us, I have tried to conduct the votes as I saw the rquirements of the constitution, and the limitations of the voting software. But this not a view shared by very many people. I've always found your decisions and actions as Secretary to be well-considered and founded in calm reason; and you've been very patient, many times, in explaining that reasoning. As to the people who emailed me that they are putting together a petition for the DAM to have me removed from the project, I hear you too. I am going to spend the next few days evaluating how important the project is to me, and whether I should save you the bother or an expulsion process. Requests to remove you from the *project* seem completely without basis. You need to make the decision you think is right, but I really hope you don't let the haters get to you, and that you get your groove back. While I must say that the mistake for this ballot lies at my door, I am very distressed at the amount of vitriol that saturates the project communication channels now. Subjectively, this seems worse now than the flame filled days of yore -- because, back then, despite the apparent flames, people used to be amicable and friendly with the people they occasionally had heated discussion with. That seems to have passed, with real meanness being far more prevalent than before. All too true. Maintaining passionate discussion without harming community cohesion is the job of us all, and we seem to be doing significantly worse at it in recent times. Let's endeavour to keep this episode of poor behaviour an isolated one, followed by a strong recovery. Thanks for your good work, Manoj, and I wish you well in deciding how to spend your efforts. Know that you're welcome as a project member, as an advocate of freedom, and as a clear voice of reason. -- \ “Rightful liberty is unobstructed action, according to our | `\will, within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of | _o__) others.” —Thomas Jefferson | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: I hereby resign as secretary
On Friday 19 December 2008 01:44, Manoj Srivastava sriva...@debian.org wrote: I am hereby resigning as secretary, effective immediately. I was I'm sad to hear this. I think that you have done a great job as secretary. I concede that I have made mistakes with the current set of votes. And the arguments being made now, after the vote was called and started, are fairly compelling. But these arguments could have been made when the vote page went up, when I was sending in the emails about which option had how many seconds, or when the draft ballot was sent in. There are, in my opinion, far more cogent arguments being offered now, than there were in the discussion period, and had these being made earlier, we would not have come to this pass. One issue we face in this regard is that the vote doesn't get that much attention until the GR. I have a limited amount of time to spend on Debian related activities (and the recent problems make me inclined to spend even less time on Debian). That time limit doesn't allow me to get involved in the debian-vote mailing list. I expect that there are others in a similar situation. It would probably be good if people who have strong feelings about discussions on debian-vote would periodically blog about it before the GR is written. While I must say that the mistake for this ballot lies at my door, I am very distressed at the amount of vitriol that saturates the project communication channels now. Subjectively, this seems worse now than the flame filled days of yore -- because, back then, despite the apparent flames, people used to be amicable and friendly with the people they occasionally had heated discussion with. That seems to have passed, with real meanness being far more prevalent than before. It's sad that yet another productive developer is resigning from duties due to the nasty environment that we have. How often does this have to happen before we get a change? -- russ...@coker.com.au http://etbe.coker.com.au/ My Main Blog http://doc.coker.com.au/ My Documents Blog -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: I hereby resign as secretary
#include hallo.h * Kalle Kivimaa [Thu, Dec 18 2008, 05:11:39PM]: Manoj Srivastava sriva...@debian.org writes: As to the people who emailed me that they are putting together a petition for the DAM to have me removed from the project, WHAT?? Could these people step up please and tell us WHY you consider expelling Manoj from Debian would be a good thing? Feel free to use -private if you think your reasonings shouldn't be public. Thanks Manoj for your work as the Secretary. I've not always agreed with your decisions but I acknowledge that the post is a difficult one and you've been committed to do the best job you can - and it has been a very good job on the whole. $message++ We did not always share the same opinion but Manoj has my respect. I hope it was not my spicy note on IRC yesterday that pulled the trigger but if that's the case then I am sorry about that. Regards, Eduard. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: I hereby resign as secretary
On Dec 18, Manoj Srivastava sriva...@debian.org wrote: I am hereby resigning as secretary, effective immediately. I was Good riddance! It's too bad that you did not leave after misleading the other developers about editorial changes. While I must say that the mistake for this ballot lies at my door, I am very distressed at the amount of vitriol that saturates the project communication channels now. Subjectively, this seems worse now I think it's interesting how how much of this can be traced to what I defined DFSG revisionism. than the flame filled days of yore -- because, back then, despite the apparent flames, people used to be amicable and friendly with the people they occasionally had heated discussion with. That seems to have This is true. I used to trust the people who worked on Debian and enjoyed working with them, but then I felt betrayed and I started to despise some developers. Then I realized that feeling emotionally attached to an operating system means that your life priorities are totally fucked up, so I moved on. -- ciao, Marco signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: I hereby resign as secretary
On Fri, Dec 19, 2008 at 03:00:11AM +0100, Marco d'Itri wrote: On Dec 18, Manoj Srivastava sriva...@debian.org wrote: I am hereby resigning as secretary, effective immediately. I was Good riddance! It's too bad that you did not leave after misleading the other developers about editorial changes. Marco, please. Was it really that important? Really? Do you realize how small this quibble is in the grand scheme of things? We have a release coming up, an unprecedented opportunity to improve things on the desktop thanks to Vista, and what you care about is *editorial changes*? And you care about it enough to say good riddance? My goodness. That's like saying good riddance to Bill Clinton because he was driving up the price of cigars. Couldn't you have expressed a coherent policy argument before the ballot came out? Couldn't you accept what has happened now that it has? Can't you treat people with respect for the good of the project? While I must say that the mistake for this ballot lies at my door, I am very distressed at the amount of vitriol that saturates the project communication channels now. Subjectively, this seems worse now I think it's interesting how how much of this can be traced to what I defined DFSG revisionism. None of it. Vitriol is a product of people, not of opinions on the DFSG. And I say that as one of the staunchest Free Software supporters here. (I'm the guy that proposed the first GR to remove non-free, if you weren't around then.) I didn't even bother to vote in this one, and that wasn't Manoj's fault. It's because I couldn't be bothered to read the discussion because so much of it was petty, irrelevant, attacks. than the flame filled days of yore -- because, back then, despite the apparent flames, people used to be amicable and friendly with the people they occasionally had heated discussion with. That seems to have This is true. I used to trust the people who worked on Debian and enjoyed working with them, but then I felt betrayed and I started to despise some developers. Then I realized that feeling emotionally attached to an operating system means that your life priorities are totally fucked up, so I moved on. It would not appear to this observer that you have. Actually, being emotionally attached to a project you have spent years working with, and the people there, is perfectly healthy and normal. Letting it drive you to rage is the part that isn't. -- John -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: I hereby resign as secretary
On Thu, Dec 18, 2008 at 10:18:04AM -0800, John H. Robinson, IV wrote: That is when Ian pointed out to me how true that was in the Linux community. I wonder if Debian is exemplifying this behavior. A lot of good people have retired lately. It is starting to feel like that block of homes that has one too many For Sale signs. Why is everyone leaving? What is so bad about the area? What do they know that I don't? Well, I haven't left, but I do far less with Debian now than I used to. It is still my preferred OS for a variety of reasons. I probably shouldn't write this tired at 11:30PM, but here goes. I get no joy whatsoever out of the current mailing list discussions. It is sad to see people arguing so bitterly about pedantic matters in constitutions and guidlines and policy when that stuff is NOT why we're here. We're here to make a Free operating system, dammit. People that are not here to make a Free operating system shouldn't be here. Our community is being fractured by poisonous people. They are destroying our project, running off the people that like to code and contribute, leaving behind those coders that can tolerate things and the rest of the poisonous people. We as a project have failed, over and over and over again, to learn this simple lesson: A poisonous person is never worth it. Either we turn the person non-poisonous, or make that person go away. It doesn't matter of the person maintains $IMPORTANT_PACKAGE_OR_SERVICE; if they are destroying the community, their harm outweighs their good. We have gotten rid of a couple of high-profile poisonous people over the last couple of years, but we took far too long to do it. We need to realize that social skills matter, and that a project this size cannot function without politeness, respect, trust, and humility. (Shamelessly lifted from Ben Collins-Sussman). I am tired of hearing the free speech argument in the face of getting rid of poisonous people. Debian is not a vehicle for vitriol; they can perfectly well set up a blog for it. http://www.red-bean.com/fitz/presentations/2007-07-26-OSCON-poisonous-people.pdf should be required reading. Read that and see how many things you recognize from Debian. It's scary, and we're doing almost nothing about it, which is scarier. http://www.oreillynet.com/conferences/blog/2006/07/oscon_how_open_source_projects.html http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4216011961522818645 for the video (Those are by Ben Collins-Sussman and Brian Fitzpatrick, some of the svn guys) I have considered leaving the project several times this year. The fun of being a Debian developer went away long ago. I maintain packages for my own utility now, at home and at work, and that's it. The fun will be back if Debian starts being a large community of friends again, instead of a large community of pedantic trolls. Manoj, though in a job that requires a pedant, and someone I've had more than one argument with, is one of the people I'd consider a friendly face around Debian. Those of you that have maltreated him owe him and this project a huge apology, but I doubt you will be mature enough to provide one. Those of you that coddle poisonous people also owe the project a huge apology. Debate ideas and proposals vigorously, but don't attack the proposer. Debate ballots if you must, but leave out the name-calling. Heck, debate the actions of poisonous people and what to do about it, but even then, we need not use ad hominem attacks. We are too big to let this continue. We will fail if it does. I for one do not want to see this project fracture into FreeDebian, NetDebian, OpenDebian, Debian/OS, and Ubuntu. Or go the way of... Yggdrasil. One bright spot is that I think there are fewer poisonous people in positions of authority in Debian now than in many points in its history. We have a great leadership team, including ftpmasters, listmasters, release managers, secretary, SPI board, translators, system admins, DPLs, etc. and I am amazed at the amount of crap they put up with in order to do thankless tasks. Even though I don't agree with everything you do, I've got to say: great job. You guys do a job I would never want, day in and day out, and take lots of crap in the process. Thanks for making this project possible. Now if only we could say positive things about people BEFORE they resign, wouldn't this be a better place? -- John /soapbox -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org
Re: I hereby resign as secretary
[...] (Sorry for only focusing on the below point, it was a really nice, but at the same time also scary read!) One bright spot is that I think there are fewer poisonous people in positions of authority in Debian now than in many points in its history. We have a great leadership team, including ftpmasters, listmasters, release managers, secretary, SPI board, translators, system admins, DPLs, etc. and I am amazed at the amount of crap they put up with in order to do thankless tasks. Even though I don't agree with everything you do, I've got to say: great job. You guys do a job I would never want, day in and day out, and take lots of crap in the process. Thanks for making this project possible. Now if only we could say positive things about people BEFORE they resign, wouldn't this be a better place? Yes. Yes. Absolutely. I've written about that to Manoj in PM such as not to feed the trolls any further, and my choice of words has probably not been as profound, but I nevertheless tried it: We don't take those 5 minutes to say thank you to all of those doing the grunt work in here (well, actually we don't say it to a single one of them); instead, we use up all of our time to flame over and over again. There is one slight hope, though: I might be overly generalizing and saying our time when actually it is only a small, but loud, group of people. The hope lies in the community being even stronger than those few crying out louder and making others think that their point is what Debian is about. Free speech is great, but sometimes silence is indeed gold. It is better to sit alone than in company with the bad; and it is better still to sit with the good than alone. It better to speak to a seeker of knowledge than to remain silent; but silence is better than idle words. [Imam Bukhari] Quietly, Michael pgp6pGCvdtw8F.pgp Description: PGP signature
