Re: Modified http://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper to mention non-packagers

2012-07-27 Thread Ivan Shmakov 
> The Fungi  writes:
> On 2012-07-26 14:29:14 +0100 (+0100), Ian Jackson wrote:

 >> We also need a general word for "someone involved with Debian in a
 >> positive way".  "Participant" is clumsy; "member of the community"
 >> even more so.  "Person" might do but word with a more positive spin
 >> would be nice.

 > As a long-time participant and non-DD, I've always liked the term
 > "contributor" in that context.

As (hopefully) one of the affected, I'm fine with “contributor.”

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Re: Modified http://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper to mention non-packagers (Re: [CTTE #614907] Resolution of node/nodejs conflict)

2012-07-27 Thread Ian Jackson 
Cyril Brulebois writes ("Re: Modified http://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper to 
mention non-packagers (Re: [CTTE #614907] Resolution of node/nodejs conflict)"):
> Ian Jackson  (26/07/2012):
> >   Uploaders needs to be abolished in favour of multiple
> >   Maintainers.  In wheezy perhaps ?
> 
> I'm pretty sure the answer is no.

Uh, yes.  I miswrote.  I'd intended "wheezy+1".

Ian.


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Re: Modified http://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper to mention non-packagers (Re: [CTTE #614907] Resolution of node/nodejs conflict)

2012-07-26 Thread Cyril Brulebois 
Ian Jackson  (26/07/2012):
>   Uploaders needs to be abolished in favour of multiple
>   Maintainers.  In wheezy perhaps ?

I'm pretty sure the answer is no.

Mraw,
KiBi.


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Re: Modified http://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper to mention non-packagers (Re: [CTTE #614907] Resolution of node/nodejs conflict)

2012-07-26 Thread Svante Signell 
On Thu, 2012-07-26 at 18:54 +0200, Luk Claes wrote:
> On 07/26/2012 03:29 PM, Ian Jackson wrote:
...
> > We also need a general word for "someone involved with Debian in a
> > positive way".  "Participant" is clumsy; "member of the community"
> > even more so.  "Person" might do but word with a more positive spin
> > would be nice.
> 
> Contributor?

That's a good  name, I happen to be in that state myself currently.



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Re: Modified http://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper to mention non-packagers (Re: [CTTE #614907] Resolution of node/nodejs conflict)

2012-07-26 Thread Luk Claes 
On 07/26/2012 03:29 PM, Ian Jackson wrote:
>  Developer, DD
>   As per the constitution; includes non-uploading DDs.
>   New Maintainer needs to be renamed to New Developer.
> 
>  [Non-]Uploading Developer
>   To distinguish where necessary, but usually we can use
>   Sponsor instead.
> 
>  Sponsor
>   An uploading DD signing off on another package.
> 
>  Maintainer, package maintainer,  maintainer
>   Someone in the Maintainer or Uploaders field.
>   Uploaders needs to be abolished in favour of multiple
>   Maintainers.  In wheezy perhaps ?
> 
>  DM, Debian Maintainer
>   Someone in the DM keyring.  This may need renaming.
>   In the meantime we need to never write "Debian maintainer"
>   to mean "maintainer of a Debian package".
> 
>  User
>   Might be a DD or DM or Maintainer too of course.
> 
>  Submitter
>   Someone who filed a bug.  Might be zero or more of the above.
> 
> We also need a general word for "someone involved with Debian in a
> positive way".  "Participant" is clumsy; "member of the community"
> even more so.  "Person" might do but word with a more positive spin
> would be nice.

Contributor?

Cheers

Luk


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Re: Modified http://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper to mention non-packagers (Re: [CTTE #614907] Resolution of node/nodejs conflict)

2012-07-26 Thread Holger Levsen 
Hi,

On Donnerstag, 26. Juli 2012, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Heh, like that's going to work in Debian.  What we could do though is
> try harder to use the nouns we do have more consistently.

Heh, like that's going to work in Debian.

;-)


Actually I do think introducing new _and better/good_ terms works, "salvaging 
a package" IMHO is an example for that.


cheers,
Holger


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Re: Modified http://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper to mention non-packagers (Re: [CTTE #614907] Resolution of node/nodejs conflict)

2012-07-26 Thread Michael Shuler 
On 07/26/2012 08:37 AM, The Fungi wrote:
> On 2012-07-26 14:29:14 +0100 (+0100), Ian Jackson wrote:
> [...]
>> We also need a general word for "someone involved with Debian in a
>> positive way". "Participant" is clumsy; "member of the community"
>> even more so. "Person" might do but word with a more positive spin
>> would be nice.
> 
> As a long-time participant and non-DD, I've always liked the term
> "contributor" in that context.

Although it is likely to not stay this way forever, this is exactly how
I describe my participation - Debian Contributor

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Re: Modified http://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper to mention non-packagers (Re: [CTTE #614907] Resolution of node/nodejs conflict)

2012-07-26 Thread The Fungi 
On 2012-07-26 14:29:14 +0100 (+0100), Ian Jackson wrote:
[...]
> We also need a general word for "someone involved with Debian in a
> positive way". "Participant" is clumsy; "member of the community"
> even more so. "Person" might do but word with a more positive spin
> would be nice.

As a long-time participant and non-DD, I've always liked the term
"contributor" in that context.
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Re: Modified http://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper to mention non-packagers (Re: [CTTE #614907] Resolution of node/nodejs conflict)

2012-07-26 Thread Ian Jackson 
Andrey Rahmatullin writes ("Re: Modified http://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper 
to mention non-packagers (Re: [CTTE #614907] Resolution of node/nodejs 
conflict)"):
> On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 01:55:06PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > I am not in favour of this change.  The point about a Debian Developer
> > is that the basis of their claim to the rights and responsibilities
> > enumerated in the constitution, is that they help develop Debian.
>
> Not only Debian Developers help develop Debian.

This is true.  But it is Debian Developers whose contributions have
been formally recognised by the project.  We could come up with a
longer name like "Governing Developer" or something but it would be
clumsy.

Ian.


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Re: Modified http://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper to mention non-packagers (Re: [CTTE #614907] Resolution of node/nodejs conflict)

2012-07-26 Thread Ian Jackson 
Jon Dowland writes ("Re: Modified http://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper to 
mention non-packagers (Re: [CTTE #614907] Resolution of node/nodejs conflict)"):
> I'm not overly interested in the word developer being eradicated, but at
> the very least having some consistency in Debian's documents would be
> very welcome. ('New Maintainer' → route to 'Developer' vs. 'Debian
> Maintainer' is another area of confusion).  Perhaps an entirely new set
> of nouns should be chosen, free of historical baggage?

Heh, like that's going to work in Debian.  What we could do though is
try harder to use the nouns we do have more consistently.

I think we have these:

 Developer, DD
  As per the constitution; includes non-uploading DDs.
  New Maintainer needs to be renamed to New Developer.

 [Non-]Uploading Developer
  To distinguish where necessary, but usually we can use
  Sponsor instead.

 Sponsor
  An uploading DD signing off on another package.

 Maintainer, package maintainer,  maintainer
  Someone in the Maintainer or Uploaders field.
  Uploaders needs to be abolished in favour of multiple
  Maintainers.  In wheezy perhaps ?

 DM, Debian Maintainer
  Someone in the DM keyring.  This may need renaming.
  In the meantime we need to never write "Debian maintainer"
  to mean "maintainer of a Debian package".

 User
  Might be a DD or DM or Maintainer too of course.

 Submitter
  Someone who filed a bug.  Might be zero or more of the above.

We also need a general word for "someone involved with Debian in a
positive way".  "Participant" is clumsy; "member of the community"
even more so.  "Person" might do but word with a more positive spin
would be nice.

Ian.


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Re: Modified http://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper to mention non-packagers (Re: [CTTE #614907] Resolution of node/nodejs conflict)

2012-07-26 Thread Andrey Rahmatullin 
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 01:55:06PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> > > We are in the process of discussing a variety of constitutional amendments
> > > to be raised by the tech-ctte that will hopefully end up creating a sort
> > > of bundle of constitutional fixes to vote on.  Perhaps it would be good to
> > > include in that a terminology standardization on member for the places in
> > > the constitution that we refer to voting project members rather than
> > > specifically people who upload software.
> > Yes please!
> I am not in favour of this change.  The point about a Debian Developer
> is that the basis of their claim to the rights and responsibilities
> enumerated in the constitution, is that they help develop Debian.
Not only Debian Developers help develop Debian.

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Re: Modified http://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper to mention non-packagers (Re: [CTTE #614907] Resolution of node/nodejs conflict)

2012-07-26 Thread Jon Dowland 
On Thu, Jul 26, 2012 at 01:55:06PM +0100, Ian Jackson wrote:
> Jon Dowland writes ("Re: Modified http://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper to 
> mention non-packagers (Re: [CTTE #614907] Resolution of node/nodejs 
> conflict)"):
> > On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 12:15:15AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> > > We are in the process of discussing a variety of constitutional amendments
> > > to be raised by the tech-ctte that will hopefully end up creating a sort
> > > of bundle of constitutional fixes to vote on.  Perhaps it would be good to
> > > include in that a terminology standardization on member for the places in
> > > the constitution that we refer to voting project members rather than
> > > specifically people who upload software.
> > 
> > Yes please!
> 
> I am not in favour of this change.  The point about a Debian Developer
> is that the basis of their claim to the rights and responsibilities
> enumerated in the constitution, is that they help develop Debian.
> 
> I don't think the word "Developer" implies that one can't develop
> Debian in other ways than by directly editing software.

The problem to solve is not that "Developer" implies a *limitation* of
responsibity for Developers; it's that non-packaging contributions are
not considered to carry the same value or esteem as traditional packaging.

I agree that 'developer' is a fine word to describe a valued contributor
to the project and does not — on its own — suggest packaging software,
but sadly the historical context does.

I'm not overly interested in the word developer being eradicated, but at
the very least having some consistency in Debian's documents would be
very welcome. ('New Maintainer' → route to 'Developer' vs. 'Debian
Maintainer' is another area of confusion).  Perhaps an entirely new set
of nouns should be chosen, free of historical baggage?


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Re: Modified http://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper to mention non-packagers (Re: [CTTE #614907] Resolution of node/nodejs conflict)

2012-07-26 Thread Ian Jackson 
Jon Dowland writes ("Re: Modified http://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper to 
mention non-packagers (Re: [CTTE #614907] Resolution of node/nodejs conflict)"):
> On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 12:15:15AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> > We are in the process of discussing a variety of constitutional amendments
> > to be raised by the tech-ctte that will hopefully end up creating a sort
> > of bundle of constitutional fixes to vote on.  Perhaps it would be good to
> > include in that a terminology standardization on member for the places in
> > the constitution that we refer to voting project members rather than
> > specifically people who upload software.
> 
> Yes please!

I am not in favour of this change.  The point about a Debian Developer
is that the basis of their claim to the rights and responsibilities
enumerated in the constitution, is that they help develop Debian.

I don't think the word "Developer" implies that one can't develop
Debian in other ways than by directly editing software.

The word "member" is very weak and suggests that anyone might simply
choose to join and become a member.

Ian.


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Re: Modified http://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper to mention non-packagers (Re: [CTTE #614907] Resolution of node/nodejs conflict)

2012-07-25 Thread Jon Dowland 
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 12:15:15AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> We are in the process of discussing a variety of constitutional amendments
> to be raised by the tech-ctte that will hopefully end up creating a sort
> of bundle of constitutional fixes to vote on.  Perhaps it would be good to
> include in that a terminology standardization on member for the places in
> the constitution that we refer to voting project members rather than
> specifically people who upload software.

Yes please!


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Re: Modified http://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper to mention non-packagers (Re: [CTTE #614907] Resolution of node/nodejs conflict)

2012-07-25 Thread Philipp Kern 
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 06:00:21PM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> Yes, as the new wording is logically inconsistent.  *By definition* a Debian
> Project Member, as the term is being used here, is someone who has voting
> rights.  The term "Debian Developer" was being used to distinguish between
> project members who upload and those who do not.
> 
> I strongly recommend reverting to the previous text.

That's not what nm.debian.org says, which now uses Debian Developer, uploading
and Debian Developer, non-uploading. (But that seems -project material.)

Kind regards
Philipp Kern


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Re: Modified http://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper to mention non-packagers (Re: [CTTE #614907] Resolution of node/nodejs conflict)

2012-07-25 Thread Charles Plessy 
Le Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 08:20:47AM +0100, Lars Wirzenius a écrit :
> 
> Personally I don't think we need separate terms for voting member with
> uploading rights and those without such rights; in the few cases where
> the difference matters, it's easier (I think also better) to spell it
> out rather than having yet another Debian specific term.

Hi all,

I think that the discussions for the "Project membership procedures" and
"Debian project members" GRs showed that a significant number of Debian
Developers do not agree with the idea of using different titles for the project
members according to if they have upload rights or not.

The "Project membership procedures" GR effectively blocked such a proposition
and the "Debian project members" GR faced some opposition until it was amended
to not introduce the term of "Debian Contributors."

Unless there are new arguments justificating such a split, I think that it would
be unproductive to propose again what has been rejected twice.

In that sense, I think that the wiki pages 
http://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper
and http://wiki.debian.org/DebianProjectMember are quite misleading, and should
be corrected, or deleted if they are abandonned drafts.

Have a nice day,

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


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Re: Modified http://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper to mention non-packagers (Re: [CTTE #614907] Resolution of node/nodejs conflict)

2012-07-25 Thread Lars Wirzenius 
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 12:15:15AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Stefano Zacchiroli  writes:
> > On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 07:49:06AM +0100, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
> 
> >> Our constitution does not talk about project members, and instead uses
> >> the word "developer".
> 
> > In fact, the Constitution uses interchangeably "member" and "developer".

Ah, indeed. It does use member in a couple of places, a quick grep 
reveals me.

> We are in the process of discussing a variety of constitutional amendments
> to be raised by the tech-ctte that will hopefully end up creating a sort
> of bundle of constitutional fixes to vote on.  Perhaps it would be good to
> include in that a terminology standardization on member for the places in
> the constitution that we refer to voting project members rather than
> specifically people who upload software.

Yes please.

Personally I don't think we need separate terms for voting member with
uploading rights and those without such rights; in the few cases where
the difference matters, it's easier (I think also better) to spell it
out rather than having yet another Debian specific term.

But we can discuss that when the issue comes up on -vote.

-- 
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Re: Modified http://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper to mention non-packagers (Re: [CTTE #614907] Resolution of node/nodejs conflict)

2012-07-25 Thread Russ Allbery 
Stefano Zacchiroli  writes:
> On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 07:49:06AM +0100, Lars Wirzenius wrote:

>> Our constitution does not talk about project members, and instead uses
>> the word "developer".

> In fact, the Constitution uses interchangeably "member" and "developer".

> (And that is one of the basis for the slow shift towards "member" in
> places like nm.d.o and elsewhere. It is correct to do so, constitution
> wise, and it exerts less communication emphasis on the activity of
> [technical] development.)

We are in the process of discussing a variety of constitutional amendments
to be raised by the tech-ctte that will hopefully end up creating a sort
of bundle of constitutional fixes to vote on.  Perhaps it would be good to
include in that a terminology standardization on member for the places in
the constitution that we refer to voting project members rather than
specifically people who upload software.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   


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Re: Modified http://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper to mention non-packagers (Re: [CTTE #614907] Resolution of node/nodejs conflict)

2012-07-25 Thread Stefano Zacchiroli 
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 07:49:06AM +0100, Lars Wirzenius wrote:
> Our constitution does not talk about project members, and instead uses
> the word "developer".

In fact, the Constitution uses interchangeably "member" and "developer".

(And that is one of the basis for the slow shift towards "member" in
places like nm.d.o and elsewhere. It is correct to do so, constitution
wise, and it exerts less communication emphasis on the activity of
[technical] development.)

Cheers.
-- 
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Re: Modified http://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper to mention non-packagers (Re: [CTTE #614907] Resolution of node/nodejs conflict)

2012-07-24 Thread Lars Wirzenius 
On Tue, Jul 24, 2012 at 06:00:21PM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> Yes, as the new wording is logically inconsistent.  *By definition* a Debian
> Project Member, as the term is being used here, is someone who has voting
> rights.  The term "Debian Developer" was being used to distinguish between
> project members who upload and those who do not.

I'm not convinced there's consensus on that terminology. Our constitution does
not talk about project members, and instead uses the word "developer". It would
be really good if we could avoid a terminology ambiguity proliferation about 
this.

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Re: Modified http://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper to mention non-packagers (Re: [CTTE #614907] Resolution of node/nodejs conflict)

2012-07-24 Thread Steve Langasek 
On Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 09:43:05AM +0900, Charles Plessy wrote:
> Le Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 02:23:50AM +0200, Ulrich Dangel a écrit :

> > >From http://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper:
> > A Debian developer (DD) is a Debian Project Member who has uploading rights.

> this page (and probably others) does not take into account that we have 
> developers
> who do not maintain packages.  I just changed it to:

> A '''Debian developer''' (DD) is a [[DebianProjectMember|Debian Project
> Member]] who has vote rights. Many maintain packages, but
> [[http://www.debian.org/News/2010/20101019|other contributions]] are very
> welcome as well.

> It can probably be further enhanced.

Yes, as the new wording is logically inconsistent.  *By definition* a Debian
Project Member, as the term is being used here, is someone who has voting
rights.  The term "Debian Developer" was being used to distinguish between
project members who upload and those who do not.

I strongly recommend reverting to the previous text.

-- 
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Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
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Modified http://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper to mention non-packagers (Re: [CTTE #614907] Resolution of node/nodejs conflict)

2012-07-24 Thread Charles Plessy 
Thread broken as topic changes.
In-Reply-To: <500f3c96.90...@spamt.net>

Le Wed, Jul 25, 2012 at 02:23:50AM +0200, Ulrich Dangel a écrit :
> 
> >From http://wiki.debian.org/DebianDeveloper:
> A Debian developer (DD) is a Debian Project Member who has uploading rights.

Hi Ulrich,

this page (and probably others) does not take into account that we have 
developers
who do not maintain packages.  I just changed it to:

A '''Debian developer''' (DD) is a [[DebianProjectMember|Debian Project
Member]] who has vote rights. Many maintain packages, but
[[http://www.debian.org/News/2010/20101019|other contributions]] are very
welcome as well.

It can probably be further enhanced.

Cheers,

-- 
Charles Plessy
Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan


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