Re: Processed: ipv6 release goal
On 2010-03-24, Marc Haber mh+debian-de...@zugschlus.de wrote:
Marc, who has preferred language DE as well and cringes whenever a
Debian page comes up and would really love to see those in English
I would like to tell content negotiation that I prefer German if the
page is natively German, English if the page is natively English
and some preference for translated pages. But I guess that's not
possible?
Kind regards,
Philipp Kern, who just runs en_{GB,US} nowadays to avoid that mess
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Re: German Debian (was: Processed: ipv6 release goal)
On Wed,24.Mar.10, 21:29:47, Hendrik Sattler wrote: I don't know the english translation for klingt irgendwie steif. Sounds too formal?. I think you are assuming you to be less formal than it actually is[1]. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You Regards, Andrei -- Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: German Debian (was: Processed: ipv6 release goal)
On Wed,24.Mar.10, 21:29:47, Hendrik Sattler wrote: I don't know the english translation for klingt irgendwie steif. Obviously, the literal translation is sounds somehow stiff, which isn't too far away - maybe sounds somewhat stiff. Regards Jeff signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Processed: ipv6 release goal
On Tue, 23 Mar 2010 20:55:09 +0800, Paul Wise p...@debian.org wrote: That is a feature, not a bug. Why is your preferred language set incorrectly in the first place? Most web pages are much better translated to German than Debian's are. Unfortunately, Debian is broken beyond repair in regard to German language support. Greetings Marc, who has preferred language DE as well and cringes whenever a Debian page comes up and would really love to see those in English -- -- !! No courtesy copies, please !! - Marc Haber |Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Mannheim, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom | http://www.zugschlus.de/ Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG Rightful Heir | Fon: *49 621 72739834 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e1nupla-0006f9...@swivel.zugschlus.de
Re: Processed: ipv6 release goal
On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 8:06 PM, Marc Haber mh+debian-de...@zugschlus.de wrote: Most web pages are much better translated to German than Debian's are. Unfortunately, Debian is broken beyond repair in regard to German language support. All of Debian or just the website? Greetings Marc, who has preferred language DE as well and cringes whenever a Debian page comes up and would really love to see those in English Sounds like Debian has QA issues wrt the website translations. I assume that you reported that to the German website l10n folks, debian-i18n and debian-www? -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e13a36b31003240523o3fd2n4b20bae6e09d1...@mail.gmail.com
German Debian (was: Processed: ipv6 release goal)
On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 20:23:31 +0800, Paul Wise p...@debian.org wrote: On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 8:06 PM, Marc Haber mh+debian-de...@zugschlus.de wrote: Most web pages are much better translated to German than Debian's are. Unfortunately, Debian is broken beyond repair in regard to German language support. All of Debian or just the website? Unfortunately, all of Debian. Translating technical texts from English to German is controversial at its best, and the Debian translators have taken my least favorite approach of eliminating all English, leading to barbarities like SMTP-Sendezentrale or Sicherheitsgutachten. Debian's German translations feel to me (a native speaker of German) as babelfished from English. I used to take a look at Debian's translations of my own package's Debconf templates, but nowadays I just treat them as just another language that I don't speak. This approach saves me a lot of grief. Greetings Marc, who has preferred language DE as well and cringes whenever a Debian page comes up and would really love to see those in English Sounds like Debian has QA issues wrt the website translations. I assume that you reported that to the German website l10n folks, debian-i18n and debian-www? They are resistant to advice and think their way is the correct way. They work with a word list, so it must be correct. Greetings Marc -- -- !! No courtesy copies, please !! - Marc Haber |Questions are the | Mailadresse im Header Mannheim, Germany | Beginning of Wisdom | http://www.zugschlus.de/ Nordisch by Nature | Lt. Worf, TNG Rightful Heir | Fon: *49 621 72739834 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e1nuqmy-00015u...@swivel.zugschlus.de
Re: German Debian (was: Processed: ipv6 release goal)
Zitat von Marc Haber mh+debian-de...@zugschlus.de: On Wed, 24 Mar 2010 20:23:31 +0800, Paul Wise p...@debian.org wrote: On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 8:06 PM, Marc Haber mh+debian-de...@zugschlus.de wrote: Most web pages are much better translated to German than Debian's are. Unfortunately, Debian is broken beyond repair in regard to German language support. All of Debian or just the website? Unfortunately, all of Debian. Translating technical texts from English to German is controversial at its best, and the Debian translators have taken my least favorite approach of eliminating all English, leading to barbarities like SMTP-Sendezentrale or Sicherheitsgutachten. Debian's German translations feel to me (a native speaker of German) as babelfished from English. I used to take a look at Debian's translations of my own package's Debconf templates, but nowadays I just treat them as just another language that I don't speak. This approach saves me a lot of grief. Greetings Marc, who has preferred language DE as well and cringes whenever a Debian page comes up and would really love to see those in English Sounds like Debian has QA issues wrt the website translations. I assume that you reported that to the German website l10n folks, debian-i18n and debian-www? They are resistant to advice and think their way is the correct way. They work with a word list, so it must be correct. Directly from www.debian.org (english, then German, then translated back): it comes with over 25000 packages, precompiled software bundled up in a nice format for easy installation on your machine. - Es enthält mehr als 25000 Softwarepakete, vorkompilierte Software in einfach zu installierenden Paketen. - It contains more than 25000 software packages, precompiled software in easily installable packages. From a good translation, I'd expect that the reverse is the original text in some form. Additionally, the translations often sound too formal to a native speaker: Debian ist ein freies Betriebssystem (OS) für Ihren Rechner. Although Ihren is the formal translation of your (which has a formal and a non-formal translation in German), capitalizing that word is very formal (e.g. used in directly addressed letters). To avoid that, it is way more common to not address the reader directly. That may be totally different in english. Sometimes, they don't translate some words, e.g. in Das neueste stabile Release von Debian ist 5.0. with a different wording under the link in the same paragraph (Release - Veröffentlichung). And that wasn't even the half of the front page! I usually don't care enough (nobody can translate stuff in a way that all agree). The reason for asking for the language of the web page was my preference to stay with a language: a reference to an english page on an english mailing list. HS -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100324163849.s0urlqu5i8c0g...@v1539.ncsrv.de
Re: German Debian (was: Processed: ipv6 release goal)
On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 04:38:49PM +0100, Hendrik Sattler wrote: Zitat von Marc Haber mh+debian-de...@zugschlus.de: Directly from www.debian.org (english, then German, then translated back): it comes with over 25000 packages, precompiled software bundled up in a nice format for easy installation on your machine. - Es enthält mehr als 25000 Softwarepakete, vorkompilierte Software in einfach zu installierenden Paketen. - It contains more than 25000 software packages, precompiled software in easily installable packages. From a good translation, I'd expect that the reverse is the original text in some form. That is an unfounded expectation. It's a well known effect that translations tend to be more explicit than the original text. See http://www.linguateca.pt/documentos/Frankenberg-Garcia2004.doc for an analysis (especially table 6). Additionally, the translations often sound too formal to a native speaker: Debian ist ein freies Betriebssystem (OS) für Ihren Rechner. Although Ihren is the formal translation of your (which has a formal and a non-formal translation in German), capitalizing that word is very formal (e.g. used in directly addressed letters). To avoid that, it is way more common to not address the reader directly. $ lynx --dump http://www.duden.de/firmenloesungen/index.php?nid=15 | grep Ihren For non-german readers: the 'Duden' is usually considered to be *the* reference for spelling in Germany. But ignoring that, how do you avoid addressing the reader when translating the snippet for your computer and at the same time keep your expectation above that the reverse translation should come really close to the original text? If you don't address the reader in the translation, there's no way to get the 'addressing' back in the reverse translation, is there? And these are exactly the kind of problems translators have. Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100324185841.ga10...@atlan
Re: German Debian (was: Processed: ipv6 release goal)
Am Mittwoch 24 März 2010 19:58:41 schrieb Thomas Weber: On Wed, Mar 24, 2010 at 04:38:49PM +0100, Hendrik Sattler wrote: Zitat von Marc Haber mh+debian-de...@zugschlus.de: Directly from www.debian.org (english, then German, then translated back): it comes with over 25000 packages, precompiled software bundled up in a nice format for easy installation on your machine. - Es enthält mehr als 25000 Softwarepakete, vorkompilierte Software in einfach zu installierenden Paketen. - It contains more than 25000 software packages, precompiled software in easily installable packages. From a good translation, I'd expect that the reverse is the original text in some form. That is an unfounded expectation. It's a well known effect that translations tend to be more explicit than the original text. _in_some_form_ - roughly means the same which is not the case here. The example above simply is not a good translation. Im selben Satz Pakete und Software zu wiederholen, klingt auch nicht sonderlich gut. Additionally, the translations often sound too formal to a native speaker: Debian ist ein freies Betriebssystem (OS) für Ihren Rechner. Although Ihren is the formal translation of your (which has a formal and a non-formal translation in German), capitalizing that word is very formal (e.g. used in directly addressed letters). To avoid that, it is way more common to not address the reader directly. $ lynx --dump http://www.duden.de/firmenloesungen/index.php?nid=15 | grep Ihren That page adresses companies in a formal matter. The debian front page doesn't do that or not in any obvious way. For non-german readers: the 'Duden' is usually considered to be *the* reference for spelling in Germany. A reference for spelling, not more. But ignoring that, how do you avoid addressing the reader when translating the snippet for your computer and at the same time keep your expectation above that the reverse translation should come really close to the original text? I don't know the english translation for klingt irgendwie steif. If you don't address the reader in the translation, there's no way to get the 'addressing' back in the reverse translation, is there? And these are exactly the kind of problems translators have. I know those problems, although not for Debian. HS -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201003242129.47834.p...@hendrik-sattler.de
Re: Processed: ipv6 release goal
Marc Haber schrieb: Marc, who has preferred language DE as well and cringes whenever a Debian page comes up and would really love to see those in English Same here, yes. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/ldd.1003242158.1...@thorondor.akallabeth.de
Re: Processed: ipv6 release goal
[Ben Hutchings] ipv6 This bug affects support for Internet Protocol version 6. This is *not* the same as the release goal, which is about fixing networking programs that don't support IPv6 at all. Many of these bugs should not be release-critical. How is it different from the release goal? Release goal bugs are not necessarily release-critical (it is a goal, not a requirement) so I do not understand your comment at all. And the ipv6 goal is as far as I understand it about fixing all Debian packages to work properly with ipv6, not just network programs, whatever that is. Happy hacking, -- Petter Reinholdtsen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/2fld3yva1s3@login2.uio.no
Re: Processed: ipv6 release goal
On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 09:19:08AM +0100, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: [Ben Hutchings] ipv6 This bug affects support for Internet Protocol version 6. This is *not* the same as the release goal, which is about fixing networking programs that don't support IPv6 at all. Many of these bugs should not be release-critical. How is it different from the release goal? Release goal bugs are not necessarily release-critical (it is a goal, not a requirement) so I do not understand your comment at all. Ben is replying to a BTS notification that many of these bugs were upgraded to severity 'serious' by Clint Adams. -- Colin Watson [cjwat...@debian.org] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100323085723.ga28...@master.debian.org
Re: Processed: ipv6 release goal
Zitat von Ben Hutchings b...@decadent.org.uk: ipv6 This bug affects support for Internet Protocol version 6. This is *not* the same as the release goal, which is about fixing networking programs that don't support IPv6 at all. Many of these bugs should not be release-critical. Context? Can you make your post a bit less brief? Where does the citation comes from? HS -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100323093559.6gqgmi314wscc...@v1539.ncsrv.de
Re: Processed: ipv6 release goal
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 23-03-2010 05:35, Hendrik Sattler wrote: Zitat von Ben Hutchings b...@decadent.org.uk: ipv6 This bug affects support for Internet Protocol version 6. This is *not* the same as the release goal, which is about fixing networking programs that don't support IPv6 at all. Many of these bugs should not be release-critical. Context? As pointed by Colin: | Ben is replying to a BTS notification that many of these bugs were | upgraded to severity 'serious' by Clint Adams. Can you make your post a bit less brief? Where does the citation comes from? http://www.debian.org/Bugs/Developer#tags Kind regards, - -- Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw) Debian. Freedom to code. Code to freedom! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAkuoq1wACgkQCjAO0JDlykYYZACgwG2f1PNouPmHiyU6ualgEZIO P+cAnRyxNpc3iplfDaBWviv1cds/cM3Q =cJ7G -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4ba8ab5e.90...@funlabs.org
Re: Processed: ipv6 release goal
Zitat von Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw) f...@funlabs.org: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 23-03-2010 05:35, Hendrik Sattler wrote: Zitat von Ben Hutchings b...@decadent.org.uk: ipv6 This bug affects support for Internet Protocol version 6. This is *not* the same as the release goal, which is about fixing networking programs that don't support IPv6 at all. Many of these bugs should not be release-critical. Context? As pointed by Colin: | Ben is replying to a BTS notification that many of these bugs were | upgraded to severity 'serious' by Clint Adams. Thanks. Can you make your post a bit less brief? Where does the citation comes from? http://www.debian.org/Bugs/Developer#tags BTW: How can I force that page to _not_ use the preferred language of the browser? Having to change that in the firefox/iceweasel settings every time is a bit... weird. HS -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100323133351.ldsshmdvs404g...@v1539.ncsrv.de
Re: Processed: ipv6 release goal
On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Hendrik Sattler p...@hendrik-sattler.de wrote: BTW: How can I force that page to _not_ use the preferred language of the browser? Having to change that in the firefox/iceweasel settings every time is a bit... weird. That is a feature, not a bug. Why is your preferred language set incorrectly in the first place? Unfortunately respecting the Accept-Language HTTP header is less and less common for web applications these days, mapping IP addresses to languages through GeoIP is more common and extremely annoying. -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e13a36b31003230555g138965dcpcdf9021fdb13d...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Processed: ipv6 release goal
On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 08:55:09PM +0800, Paul Wise wrote: On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Hendrik Sattler p...@hendrik-sattler.de wrote: BTW: How can I force that page to _not_ use the preferred language of the browser? Having to change that in the firefox/iceweasel settings every time is a bit... weird. That is a feature, not a bug. Why is your preferred language set incorrectly in the first place? Unfortunately respecting the Accept-Language HTTP header is less and less common for web applications these days, mapping IP addresses to languages through GeoIP is more common and extremely annoying. There is one annoying misfeature of content negotiation, though. If you follow one of the language links at the bottom of the, say, english page, and then follow a link within the translated page, you are back to english. Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100323130506.ga13...@glandium.org
Re: Processed: ipv6 release goal
Zitat von Hendrik Sattler p...@hendrik-sattler.de: http://www.debian.org/Bugs/Developer#tags BTW: How can I force that page to _not_ use the preferred language of the browser? Having to change that in the firefox/iceweasel settings every time is a bit... weird. Ups. Should have scrolled all the way down :-/ HS -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100323135635.5ac1y3iigwkgo...@v1539.ncsrv.de
Re: Processed: ipv6 release goal
Zitat von Paul Wise p...@debian.org: On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 8:33 PM, Hendrik Sattler p...@hendrik-sattler.de wrote: BTW: How can I force that page to _not_ use the preferred language of the browser? Having to change that in the firefox/iceweasel settings every time is a bit... weird. That is a feature, not a bug. Why is your preferred language set incorrectly in the first place? Unfortunately respecting the Accept-Language HTTP header is less and less common for web applications these days, mapping IP addresses to languages through GeoIP is more common and extremely annoying. Actually, it is (set to German). However, I do not always want to see a translated page. Nothing that any solution can get right (as for a computer, the choice is rather random), be it content negotiation or geoip. Already found it anyway :) HS -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20100323151457.2l7dztujy8scs...@v1539.ncsrv.de
Re: Processed: ipv6 release goal
ipv6 This bug affects support for Internet Protocol version 6. This is *not* the same as the release goal, which is about fixing networking programs that don't support IPv6 at all. Many of these bugs should not be release-critical. Ben. -- Ben Hutchings If you seem to know what you are doing, you'll be given more to do. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
