Re: RFA: The Debian Jr. project
On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 16:30:40 +0200 Holger Levsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yup. Has something happened on this in the last month? Miriam Ruiz has some ideas, but since our initial contact on the matter, I have not seen any action on them. Sounds good and compatible :) OK ... That said, I dont see much of a problem here, or maybe rather, an easy way out: Debian Edu provides two key features: customisation of the desktop for pupils/schools and providing a network infrastructure for schools. Debian Jr. doesnt need the latter at all (or? kindergarten network seems a bit far out to me atm, maybe its not), but thats no issue, as Debian Edu also already has standalone installs. And we even have different desktop profiles for standalone installs now: kde, gnome and sugar. And I would love to extend this to kde for primary school, kde for middle classes, kde for high school and university and the same with gnome. And then also kde gnome for kids. I'd think this would boil down to provide a different installer image or installation type with the existing image. So basically, a Debian Edu install with less overhead, which is not needed for a single^wstandalone kids machine. Well, technically, it appears things would work out. How do you think children would view Jr if it were an arm of the Edu project? In Debian Jr, our focus is the child and the fun of discovery. While some progressive educationists claim to hold to these values, I worry about how kids would view the Jr project if it were absorbed into Edu. Hm. Honestly, I have no idea how kids see Debian Jr. now, maybe I wonder if they can see it, as currently afaik its only a packaging effort within Debian, so I dont think it's visible to them. Do you agree? ;) Probably. But it doesn't stop me from wishing this were not so. I didn't want Debian Jr. to be *only* a packaging effort. I wanted a living, breathing relationship between children, their caretakers and developers. We've fallen far short of this lofty ideal, but that doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be kept alive. That's the distinctiveness that is at risk to be lost if we're just absorbed by Debian Edu. Basically, to keep Debian Jr. distinct, I would suggest branding :) Not a bad technical solution, as I said. Let's just see what comes of the alternate proposal by Miriam to have youth lead this project as a group before going down that road, though. Ben -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFA: The Debian Jr. project
2008/10/1 Ben Armstrong [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Tue, 30 Sep 2008 16:30:40 +0200 Holger Levsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yup. Has something happened on this in the last month? Miriam Ruiz has some ideas, but since our initial contact on the matter, I have not seen any action on them. I have some ideas and I plan to do work on this. I just didn't have time until now because this weeks have been really exahusting at work, and also due to some personal matters involving someone in my close family and the hospital. I might be a bit away these days, but I'm definitely not giving up the project :) Hm. Honestly, I have no idea how kids see Debian Jr. now, maybe I wonder if they can see it, as currently afaik its only a packaging effort within Debian, so I dont think it's visible to them. Do you agree? ;) Probably. But it doesn't stop me from wishing this were not so. I didn't want Debian Jr. to be *only* a packaging effort. I wanted a living, breathing relationship between children, their caretakers and developers. We've fallen far short of this lofty ideal, but that doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be kept alive. That's the distinctiveness that is at risk to be lost if we're just absorbed by Debian Edu. I don't have the time nor the mood to fully explain my ideas right now, but I will. I want to have children and teenagers somehow involved in the development of what would be their distribution too, and I think I know how to achieve that. Basically, to keep Debian Jr. distinct, I would suggest branding :) Not a bad technical solution, as I said. Let's just see what comes of the alternate proposal by Miriam to have youth lead this project as a group before going down that road, though. Whatever I do, I don't plan to have separate repositories of any kind, but to use Debian's, so my plan would lead to effectively create a Debian branding targeted to kids. Greetings, Miry PS: I'm sorry for not beint more verbose right now. I'm a bit overloaded due to some things outside Debian. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFA: The Debian Jr. project
On Wed, 1 Oct 2008, Ben Armstrong wrote: Probably. But it doesn't stop me from wishing this were not so. I didn't want Debian Jr. to be *only* a packaging effort. I wanted a living, breathing relationship between children, their caretakers and developers. We've fallen far short of this lofty ideal, but that doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be kept alive. That's the distinctiveness that is at risk to be lost if we're just absorbed by Debian Edu. I absolutely subscribe to this statement. I've nothing against Debian Edu (rather the contrary) but I think Debian Jr. could do more for the original target audience if it would keep a team alive. Not a bad technical solution, as I said. Let's just see what comes of the alternate proposal by Miriam to have youth lead this project as a group before going down that road, though. That would be ideal. Miriam? Kind regards Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFA: The Debian Jr. project
2008/10/1 Andreas Tille [EMAIL PROTECTED]: On Wed, 1 Oct 2008, Ben Armstrong wrote: Not a bad technical solution, as I said. Let's just see what comes of the alternate proposal by Miriam to have youth lead this project as a group before going down that road, though. That would be ideal. Miriam? That has been my plan since I said I was going to take care of the project. I want us to make a distro for children and teens made by youth themselves (of course, with the necessary technical assistance from our side), in which they can get involved, they can control its evolution and that they can feel it as their own (and not as externally imposed to them). I seriously think the best way of making it work is by having the kids themselves giving feedback and taking as much decisions as possible and my roadplan goes along those lines. The first step will be to design and develop the infrastructure needed for kids to get involved, and that's the point where I'm currently at. I plan to write more extensively on this when I have some time, but if anyone who likes kids or is a kid her/himself has time and is willing to get involved in helping push a project like this and wants to contact me, I'll be willing to get some time out of nowhere to explain my vision, to listen to alternative proposals to things I might be considering, and to coordinate. Greetings, Miry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFA: The Debian Jr. project
Hi, On Wednesday 01 October 2008 11:37, Ben Armstrong wrote: Probably. But it doesn't stop me from wishing this were not so. I didn't want Debian Jr. to be *only* a packaging effort. I wanted a living, breathing relationship between children, their caretakers and developers. We've fallen far short of this lofty ideal, but that doesn't mean it can't or shouldn't be kept alive. That's the distinctiveness that is at risk to be lost if we're just absorbed by Debian Edu. That living, breathing relationship stuff sounds good and like a worthwhile reason to keep Jr and Edu distinct. But then, it's also something I'd very much like to see for Debian Edu and Debian :) (Though then probably with slightly different players...) regards, Holger, who is also curious to read more about Miriams ideas... pgpFqCpl1q5ac.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: RFA: The Debian Jr. project
Hi Ben, On Monday 25 August 2008 11:38, Ben Armstrong wrote: Thanks. It's hard to let go, but it's really for the best if someone else will carry on. Yup. Has something happened on this in the last month? Is that vision written down somewhere? It is probably best expressed on http://wiki.debian.org/DebianJr quoted below: Sounds good and compatible :) Because I often think, that Debian Jr. could be(come a) part of Debian Edu. In Etch Debian Edu came with one preconfigured desktop (which is KDE and rather aimed at older students), but now we are in the process of merging with Linex and they have used three (iirc) different gnome desktops (configurations), one for 1st+2nd grade, one for 3rd+4th grade and another one for older students. I'd say that Debian Jr fits in the 0th+1st grade category ;-) What do you think? While I would not have any problem with that if Edu cared for the project and preserved the vision I described above, I have always felt my own ideas for Jr had nothing to do with school and might indeed by swallowed up by school concerns if we were an arm of the Debian Edu project. That is why I kept it a distinct project. /me nods. That said, I dont see much of a problem here, or maybe rather, an easy way out: Debian Edu provides two key features: customisation of the desktop for pupils/schools and providing a network infrastructure for schools. Debian Jr. doesnt need the latter at all (or? kindergarten network seems a bit far out to me atm, maybe its not), but thats no issue, as Debian Edu also already has standalone installs. And we even have different desktop profiles for standalone installs now: kde, gnome and sugar. And I would love to extend this to kde for primary school, kde for middle classes, kde for high school and university and the same with gnome. And then also kde gnome for kids. I'd think this would boil down to provide a different installer image or installation type with the existing image. So basically, a Debian Edu install with less overhead, which is not needed for a single^wstandalone kids machine. But we're in poor shape right now, and the most important thing is that the project go forward. How would you propose the distinctiveness of Jr be kept? See above :) How do you think children would view Jr if it were an arm of the Edu project? In Debian Jr, our focus is the child and the fun of discovery. While some progressive educationists claim to hold to these values, I worry about how kids would view the Jr project if it were absorbed into Edu. Hm. Honestly, I have no idea how kids see Debian Jr. now, maybe I wonder if they can see it, as currently afaik its only a packaging effort within Debian, so I dont think it's visible to them. Do you agree? ;) Basically, to keep Debian Jr. distinct, I would suggest branding :) regards, Holger pgpitdi87YPjm.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: RFA: The Debian Jr. project
On Tue, Sep 30, 2008 at 10:30 AM, Holger Levsen [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: Hi Ben, On Monday 25 August 2008 11:38, Ben Armstrong wrote: Thanks. It's hard to let go, but it's really for the best if someone else will carry on. Yup. Has something happened on this in the last month? Is that vision written down somewhere? It is probably best expressed on http://wiki.debian.org/DebianJr quoted below: Sounds good and compatible :) Because I often think, that Debian Jr. could be(come a) part of Debian Edu. In Etch Debian Edu came with one preconfigured desktop (which is KDE and rather aimed at older students), but now we are in the process of merging with Linex and they have used three (iirc) different gnome desktops (configurations), one for 1st+2nd grade, one for 3rd+4th grade and another one for older students. I'd say that Debian Jr fits in the 0th+1st grade category ;-) What do you think? While I would not have any problem with that if Edu cared for the project and preserved the vision I described above, I have always felt my own ideas for Jr had nothing to do with school and might indeed by swallowed up by school concerns if we were an arm of the Debian Edu project. That is why I kept it a distinct project. /me nods. That said, I dont see much of a problem here, or maybe rather, an easy way out: Debian Edu provides two key features: customisation of the desktop for pupils/schools and providing a network infrastructure for schools. Debian Jr. doesnt need the latter at all (or? kindergarten network seems a bit far out to me atm, maybe its not), but thats no issue, as Debian Edu also already has standalone installs. And we even have different desktop profiles for standalone installs now: kde, gnome and sugar. And I would love to extend this to kde for primary school, kde for middle classes, kde for high school and university and the same with gnome. And then also kde gnome for kids. I'd think this would boil down to provide a different installer image or installation type with the existing image. So basically, a Debian Edu install with less overhead, which is not needed for a single^wstandalone kids machine. But we're in poor shape right now, and the most important thing is that the project go forward. How would you propose the distinctiveness of Jr be kept? See above :) How do you think children would view Jr if it were an arm of the Edu project? In Debian Jr, our focus is the child and the fun of discovery. While some progressive educationists claim to hold to these values, I worry about how kids would view the Jr project if it were absorbed into Edu. Hm. Honestly, I have no idea how kids see Debian Jr. now, maybe I wonder if they can see it, as currently afaik its only a packaging effort within Debian, so I dont think it's visible to them. Do you agree? ;) Basically, to keep Debian Jr. distinct, I would suggest branding :) regards, Holger So, Debian Jr will be included into Debian Edu? -- Atte, Maximiliano Marin http://blogs.opensur.org/maximilinux
Re: RFA: The Debian Jr. project
Hi Ben, thanks for your work on Debian Jr. and for acknowledging that you don't have time/a heart for it anymore! On Thursday 07 August 2008 12:46, Ben Armstrong wrote: The time has come for me to give up the [0]Debian Jr. project for someone else to lead. While I still have a clear vision for it, Is that vision written down somewhere? Because I often think, that Debian Jr. could be(come a) part of Debian Edu. In Etch Debian Edu came with one preconfigured desktop (which is KDE and rather aimed at older students), but now we are in the process of merging with Linex and they have used three (iirc) different gnome desktops (configurations), one for 1st+2nd grade, one for 3rd+4th grade and another one for older students. I'd say that Debian Jr fits in the 0th+1st grade category ;-) What do you think? Here are just a few ideas I have to move the project forward: IMHO those ideas fit very well into Debian Edu too, we even have implemented some of them already :) * Update the appearance of Debian Jr. * Incorporate the winning entry in the logo contest into Debian Jr. and the web site. Can you give a pointer to that logo please?! regards, Holger pgph20x2C8wQj.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: RFA: The Debian Jr. project
On Mon, Aug 25, 2008 at 10:15:39AM +0200, Holger Levsen wrote: * Update the appearance of Debian Jr. * Incorporate the winning entry in the logo contest into Debian Jr. and the web site. Can you give a pointer to that logo please?! http://www.debianart.org/cchost/?ccm=/debianjrlogocontest/files/Anna/220 Cheers, -- Michael Schutte [EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: RFA: The Debian Jr. project
On Mon, 25 Aug 2008 10:15:39 +0200 Holger Levsen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: thanks for your work on Debian Jr. and for acknowledging that you don't have time/a heart for it anymore! Thanks. It's hard to let go, but it's really for the best if someone else will carry on. Is that vision written down somewhere? It is probably best expressed on http://wiki.debian.org/DebianJr quoted below: Guiding Principles We aim to help children and those who care for them to get the most use and enjoyment out of their Debian systems; to help them acquire some of the skills and experiences we have as adults; and to convey to them our values: our love of freedom, our appreciation for software that works well, and our strong sense of community. That is to say, we do not aim to diminish or limit Debian to domesticate it for little people, but to give them the best of what Debian has to offer so they will grow to the point where they no longer need our help. Behind every child user of Debian, we assume there is at least one older person who uses Debian and helps them with it: a guide, a mentor, a parent, a relative, a friend. So these people are our users too. It would be too easy to treat them as our primary audience. After all, they are the ones reading this web page. They are the ones installing and maintaining the system. However, they also have other places to get support in the broader community of Debian and free software. In thinking about where our energies should be focused, then, we place children first and their guides second. Because I often think, that Debian Jr. could be(come a) part of Debian Edu. In Etch Debian Edu came with one preconfigured desktop (which is KDE and rather aimed at older students), but now we are in the process of merging with Linex and they have used three (iirc) different gnome desktops (configurations), one for 1st+2nd grade, one for 3rd+4th grade and another one for older students. I'd say that Debian Jr fits in the 0th+1st grade category ;-) What do you think? While I would not have any problem with that if Edu cared for the project and preserved the vision I described above, I have always felt my own ideas for Jr had nothing to do with school and might indeed by swallowed up by school concerns if we were an arm of the Debian Edu project. That is why I kept it a distinct project. But we're in poor shape right now, and the most important thing is that the project go forward. How would you propose the distinctiveness of Jr be kept? How do you think children would view Jr if it were an arm of the Edu project? In Debian Jr, our focus is the child and the fun of discovery. While some progressive educationists claim to hold to these values, I worry about how kids would view the Jr project if it were absorbed into Edu. Ben -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFA: The Debian Jr. project
2008/8/25 Ben Armstrong [EMAIL PROTECTED]: While I would not have any problem with that if Edu cared for the project and preserved the vision I described above, I have always felt my own ideas for Jr had nothing to do with school and might indeed by swallowed up by school concerns if we were an arm of the Debian Edu project. That is why I kept it a distinct project. But we're in poor shape right now, and the most important thing is that the project go forward. How would you propose the distinctiveness of Jr be kept? How do you think children would view Jr if it were an arm of the Edu project? In Debian Jr, our focus is the child and the fun of discovery. While some progressive educationists claim to hold to these values, I worry about how kids would view the Jr project if it were absorbed into Edu. Hi, I have different plans for Debian Jr than those in from Debian-Edu if I was to adopt that project. It would be nice to talk about it. I'll try to find time to write a text on my view about the future of the Debian Jr Project as soon as I can. Greetings, Miry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFA: The Debian Jr. project
2008/8/25 Andreas Tille [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Miriam, good luck at the revitalisation front! I'm willing to support your effort by sharing experiences and technically with the DIS tools (formerly known as CDD tools). Thanks a lot!! I will gladly take your word and be able to benefit from your experience! :) Greetings, Miry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFA: The Debian Jr. project
On Mon, 25 Aug 2008, Miriam Ruiz wrote: I have different plans for Debian Jr than those in from Debian-Edu if I was to adopt that project. It would be nice to talk about it. I'll try to find time to write a text on my view about the future of the Debian Jr Project as soon as I can. From my point of view if you provide a system for children it is always connected to education - so there is definetely a common set between Debian Edu and Debian Jr. My perception of these both projects is that while Debian Edu targets computers in a school Debian Jr has the goal to make Debian attractive for children at home (including children which are not yet in school). So even if there is a good chance of fruitful cooperation (lurking members of both projects on each mailing list makes perfectly sense) I would see some sense in keeping the projects separately - provided that the attempt to revitalise Debian Jr proves to be successful. If the later is not the case some Debian [EMAIL PROTECTED] (with some people dedicated to work on this!) might be a reasonable alternative. (BTW, knowing that more and more Debian Edu members have children at home I see an increased motivation to work on these issues. ;-)) Miriam, good luck at the revitalisation front! I'm willing to support your effort by sharing experiences and technically with the DIS tools (formerly known as CDD tools). Kind regards Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: RFA: The Debian Jr. project
2008/8/7 Ben Armstrong [EMAIL PROTECTED]: The time has come for me to give up the [0]Debian Jr. project for someone else to lead. While I still have a clear vision for it, my heart has not been in the work for some time. It has been in maintenance mode for some years with no forward motion. Whoever takes the lead of this project, count on me for whatever help you might need from me. I'm very interested in it too. Greetings, Miry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
