Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
Hi, On 2011-04-05 20:37:39 +0300, Andrew O. Shadoura wrote: Hello, On Tue, 5 Apr 2011 14:31:40 +0200 Vincent Lefevre vinc...@vinc17.net wrote: [About the general problem of documentation] The problem is to find the correct tools and the correct documentation. For instance, imagine the average user who wants for Ethernet (eth0), to do the following automatically (for a laptop): 1. use some fixed IP address if there's some peer 192.168.0.1 with some given MAC address; 2. otherwise, if an Ethernet cable is plugged in (and only in this case), start a DHCP client; 3. make things still work after a suspend/resume. I now know how to do this. But I still wonder what documentation a user should read to achieve such a configuration. It is normal that a user may want to use his laptop from network to network and things work without manual reconfiguration. Of course, man guessnet. Just few lines. First, my remark was more about: how does the user find that he needs guessnet in the first place (and not some other tool)? One often find tools via references from man pages or package descriptions, but this doesn't seem to be the case here. Moreover, guessnet is sufficient for (1), but not for (2) and (3) (this part is covered below). mapping eth1 script guessnet-ifupdown map default: dhcp iface eth-home inet static test peer address 192.168.0.1 mac ... ... iface dhcp inet dhcp That's not sufficient, because if a DHCP client is still running (e.g. because the previous configuration used DHCP), one needs to kill it before using a fixed IP address (in eth-home). My solution is to use a wrapper to guessnet that does this job. The last requirement is fulfilled by means of installing ifplugd. Well, ifplugd didn't work for me. I don't know what the real causes were. There was at least a $PATH problem, because contrary to ifupdown, the ifplugd init script doesn't include /usr/local/sbin in $PATH (and the error message was not logged). There are still open bugs that could be related to my problems with it. I'm using netplug instead, but again, there's a bug with the default configuration (and it seems that ifplugd is affected by this too). See: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=619866 I now use a workaround, but to find the cause of the problem, I had to do a strace in a /etc/init.d script, in particular causing the machine to be sometimes unbootable. Really, this is not what an end user should do. -- Vincent Lefèvre vinc...@vinc17.net - Web: http://www.vinc17.net/ 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: http://www.vinc17.net/blog/ Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / Arénaire project (LIP, ENS-Lyon) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110406114043.ga13...@prunille.vinc17.org
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
On 2011-04-06 07:24:30 +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote: There are several hacks to do that (like guessnet or laptop-net), but I don’t think this can work correctly in the general case with IPv4. FYI, I had used laptop-net in the past, but it has been removed from Debian: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=581442 This is another problem for the user: he may spend time to try to configure his network with some tool, but then the tool is removed... -- Vincent Lefèvre vinc...@vinc17.net - Web: http://www.vinc17.net/ 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: http://www.vinc17.net/blog/ Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / Arénaire project (LIP, ENS-Lyon) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110406121135.gc13...@prunille.vinc17.org
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
On Wed, Apr 06, 2011 at 02:11:35PM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote: On 2011-04-06 07:24:30 +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote: There are several hacks to do that (like guessnet or laptop-net), but I don’t think this can work correctly in the general case with IPv4. FYI, I had used laptop-net in the past, but it has been removed from Debian: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=581442 This is another problem for the user: he may spend time to try to configure his network with some tool, but then the tool is removed... Absolutely. An appropriate solution is something that has enough momentum behind it that this is very unlikely. Whatever else can be said about it, NetworkManager certainly has that momentum. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110406134856.ga15...@deckard.alcopop.org
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
Hello, On Wed, 6 Apr 2011 13:40:43 +0200 Vincent Lefevre vinc...@vinc17.net wrote: That's not sufficient, because if a DHCP client is still running (e.g. because the previous configuration used DHCP), one needs to kill it before using a fixed IP address (in eth-home). If you do `ifdown`, either manually or by unplugging the cable, the problem doesn't appear to exist. Calling ifupdown may be inserted into the suspend/resume scripts. -- WBR, Andrew signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
On 2011-04-06 18:26:45 +0300, Andrew O. Shadoura wrote: If you do `ifdown`, either manually or by unplugging the cable, the problem doesn't appear to exist. Calling ifupdown may be inserted into the suspend/resume scripts. I wonder why this isn't done by default. -- Vincent Lefèvre vinc...@vinc17.net - Web: http://www.vinc17.net/ 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: http://www.vinc17.net/blog/ Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / Arénaire project (LIP, ENS-Lyon) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110407004833.gd13...@prunille.vinc17.org
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
* Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org [110404 14:05]: It seems to be a common belief between some developers that users should have to read dozens of pages of documentation before attempting to do anything. You mix two things up here: Almost noone demands a system that is only configurable after reading a dozen pages of documentation to get it work. But what many people[1] want is that you can make it work if you read some dozen pages of documentation. It's the elementary freedom to be able to fix it yourself. Having the source and the right to modify the software is one part, but in practise having a system that one can understand in depth and actualy force to do what one want is an important aspect for people to choose Debian. Having a nice automagic opaque interface with three buttons of the kind on, off, repair might look very user-friendly. But as every paternalism it is only nice as long as you want what your superior wants. And many people react very emotional to being the inferior of a computer too stupid to understand anything. Bernhard R. Link [1] especially those that have always been a large group of Debian users -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110405061554.ga2...@pcpool00.mathematik.uni-freiburg.de
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
In other news for Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 08:15:55AM +0200, Bernhard R. Link has been seen typing: But what many people[1] want is that you can make it work if you read some dozen pages of documentation. Personally, what I want is a setup that does not drop all active network interfaces during a software upgrade because it needs to restart a daemon. Making network-manager honor an option along the lines of --leave-interfaces during stop or restart would be a good start. -- Rens Houben |opinions are mine Resident linux guru and sysadmin | if my employers have one Systemec Internet Services. |they'll tell you themselves PGP key at http://marduk.systemec.nl/~shadur/shadur.key.asc -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110405070633.ge9...@proteus.systemec.nl
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
On 2011-04-04 17:31:18 +0400, Stanislav Maslovski wrote: On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 05:35:10PM +0530, Josselin Mouette wrote: It seems to be a common belief between some developers that users should have to read dozens of pages of documentation before attempting to do anything. I’m happy that not all of us share this elitist view of software. I thought we were building the Universal Operating System, not the Operating System for bearded gurus. I do not think that reading documentation before trying to achieve something is that elitist. [About the general problem of documentation] The problem is to find the correct tools and the correct documentation. For instance, imagine the average user who wants for Ethernet (eth0), to do the following automatically (for a laptop): 1. use some fixed IP address if there's some peer 192.168.0.1 with some given MAC address; 2. otherwise, if an Ethernet cable is plugged in (and only in this case), start a DHCP client; 3. make things still work after a suspend/resume. I now know how to do this. But I still wonder what documentation a user should read to achieve such a configuration. It is normal that a user may want to use his laptop from network to network and things work without manual reconfiguration. And in the case of wpa_supplicant, it is definitely not dozens of pages. Basically, it is just man interfaces man wpa_supplicant.conf zless /usr/share/doc/wpasupplicant/README.Debian.gz How does the average user know that he would need to read these pages and not others? (and for most cases just reading that README.Debian should be enough) Yes, the README.Debian seems to give very good information. But users used to man pages may not have the idea to look at this file. I would have thought that users should look at HOWTO's first, but those provided by Debian are obsolete (Networking-Overview-HOWTO is more than 10 years old). The wireless networks in public locations are usually open and do not require any specific configuration; the most of them are catched with a simple roaming setup outlined in that README from above, supplanted with a default /e/n/interfaces stanza for DHCP-based networks. If one instead prefers using a GUI, then there is wpa_gui with which one may scan for networks, select the needed one, change parameters, etc. The wpa_supplicant(8) man page mentions the CLI (wpa_cli), but not the GUI! So, how would the average user know its existence? -- Vincent Lefèvre vinc...@vinc17.net - Web: http://www.vinc17.net/ 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: http://www.vinc17.net/blog/ Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / Arénaire project (LIP, ENS-Lyon) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110405123140.ga10...@prunille.vinc17.org
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
On Tue, Apr 05, 2011 at 02:31:40PM +0200, Vincent Lefevre wrote: On 2011-04-04 17:31:18 +0400, Stanislav Maslovski wrote: On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 05:35:10PM +0530, Josselin Mouette wrote: It seems to be a common belief between some developers that users should have to read dozens of pages of documentation before attempting to do anything. I’m happy that not all of us share this elitist view of software. I thought we were building the Universal Operating System, not the Operating System for bearded gurus. I do not think that reading documentation before trying to achieve something is that elitist. [About the general problem of documentation] The problem is to find the correct tools and the correct documentation. For instance, imagine the average user who wants for Ethernet (eth0), to do the following automatically (for a laptop): 1. use some fixed IP address if there's some peer 192.168.0.1 with some given MAC address; 2. otherwise, if an Ethernet cable is plugged in (and only in this case), start a DHCP client; 3. make things still work after a suspend/resume. [...] The average user doesn't know what an IP address, MAC address or DHCP are. There's a reason why d-i defaults to DHCP without even asking now. Ben. -- Ben Hutchings We get into the habit of living before acquiring the habit of thinking. - Albert Camus -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110405123456.gu2...@decadent.org.uk
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
Hello, On Tue, 5 Apr 2011 14:31:40 +0200 Vincent Lefevre vinc...@vinc17.net wrote: [About the general problem of documentation] The problem is to find the correct tools and the correct documentation. For instance, imagine the average user who wants for Ethernet (eth0), to do the following automatically (for a laptop): 1. use some fixed IP address if there's some peer 192.168.0.1 with some given MAC address; 2. otherwise, if an Ethernet cable is plugged in (and only in this case), start a DHCP client; 3. make things still work after a suspend/resume. I now know how to do this. But I still wonder what documentation a user should read to achieve such a configuration. It is normal that a user may want to use his laptop from network to network and things work without manual reconfiguration. Of course, man guessnet. Just few lines. mapping eth1 script guessnet-ifupdown map default: dhcp iface eth-home inet static test peer address 192.168.0.1 mac ... ... iface dhcp inet dhcp The last requirement is fulfilled by means of installing ifplugd. -- WBR, Andrew signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
On 2011-04-05, Andrew O. Shadoura bugzi...@tut.by wrote: Of course, man guessnet. Just few lines. Last time I looked guessnet was orphaned, though. Kind regards Philipp Kern -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/slrnipmlga.gou.tr...@kelgar.0x539.de
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
Hi, Am Dienstag, den 05.04.2011, 17:48 + schrieb Philipp Kern: On 2011-04-05, Andrew O. Shadoura bugzi...@tut.by wrote: Of course, man guessnet. Just few lines. Last time I looked guessnet was orphaned, though. but still very useful and allowing me to have a great network setup that, once set up, automatically and invisibly adjust to whatever place I am. Greetings, Joachim PS: This e-mail is relatively useless. To lessen this a bit: Kudos to Enrico for creating guessnet! -- Joachim nomeata Breitner Debian Developer nome...@debian.org | ICQ# 74513189 | GPG-Keyid: 4743206C JID: nome...@joachim-breitner.de | http://people.debian.org/~nomeata signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
#include hallo.h * Kelly Clowers [Mon, Apr 04 2011, 02:06:01PM]: On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 07:29, Sune Vuorela nos...@vuorela.dk wrote: I don't consider myself 'stupid user', but I haven't yet been able to put my laptop on wpa network without the use of network manager. I never did get nm or wicd to work. Only with ifupdown+wpa_supplicant was I able to make WiFi work. This was with an ordinary home router with WPA2 PSK and an Atheros PCIe NIC So, and where exactly is your bug report? Don't you think that the developers deserve that minimum of respect that you tell them (yes, them, not some blog/mailing list) that there is a problem? Regards, Eduard. -- Ganneff kde und tastatur? passt doch nicht mit dem nutzerprofil windepp zusammen :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110405182524.ga25...@rotes76.wohnheim.uni-kl.de
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
Le mardi 05 avril 2011 à 14:31 +0200, Vincent Lefevre a écrit : For instance, imagine the average user who wants for Ethernet (eth0), to do the following automatically (for a laptop): 1. use some fixed IP address if there's some peer 192.168.0.1 with some given MAC address; There are several hacks to do that (like guessnet or laptop-net), but I don’t think this can work correctly in the general case with IPv4. -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' “If you behave this way because you are blackmailed by someone, `-[…] I will see what I can do for you.” -- Jörg Schilling signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
Le lundi 04 avril 2011 à 11:55 +0400, Stanislav Maslovski a écrit : Well, actually configuring a wireless network with wpa_supplicant and ifupdown is not hard at all and does not require too much time, _if_ a user has developed a good habbit of reading documentation first. It seems to be a common belief between some developers that users should have to read dozens of pages of documentation before attempting to do anything. I’m happy that not all of us share this elitist view of software. I thought we were building the Universal Operating System, not the Operating System for bearded gurus. It is also preferable in that sense that you configure it once and it works for years, surviving upgrades, etc. So in the end you conserve your time, and not loose your time. Do you even know in what kind of contexts a laptop with wireless connection is actually used? Because from your sentence it looks like you live in a different world. -- .''`. : :' : “You would need to ask a lawyer if you don't know `. `' that a handshake of course makes a valid contract.” `--- J???rg Schilling -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1301918712.3448.124.camel@pi0307572
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
Well, actually configuring a wireless network with wpa_supplicant and ifupdown is not hard at all and does not require too much time, _if_ a user has developed a good habbit of reading documentation first. JM It seems to be a common belief between some developers that users should JM have to read dozens of pages of documentation before attempting to do JM anything. JM I’m happy that not all of us share this elitist view of software. I JM thought we were building the Universal Operating System, not the JM Operating System for bearded gurus. User MUST study each OS he uses. If he doesn't want he will be forced to pay the other people who will tune his (user's) system. There is no discrimination here. I'm not a guru, but I don't understand why Debian must be broken to please a user who doesn't want to read anything. -- . ''`. Dmitry E. Oboukhov : :’ : email: un...@debian.org jabber://un...@uvw.ru `. `~’ GPGKey: 1024D / F8E26537 2006-11-21 `- 1B23 D4F8 8EC0 D902 0555 E438 AB8C 00CF F8E2 6537 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
Le lundi 04 avril 2011 à 16:19 +0400, Dmitry E. Oboukhov a écrit : User MUST study each OS he uses. No, he must not. The OS must adapt to the user’s needs, not the opposite. If he doesn't want he will be forced to pay the other people who will tune his (user's) system. A lot of users actually pay for that indeed. I don’t see this as a problem, especially since it gets me to eat every day. There is no discrimination here. Who talks about discrimination? It’s just being stubborn insisting that people do the things you say while you are in no position to order them. I'm not a guru, but I don't understand why Debian must be broken to please a user who doesn't want to read anything. If Debian could not be used without reading a manual, then I would call it broken. -- .''`. : :' : “You would need to ask a lawyer if you don't know `. `' that a handshake of course makes a valid contract.” `--- J???rg Schilling -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1301920590.3448.132.camel@pi0307572
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
On ma, 2011-04-04 at 16:19 +0400, Dmitry E. Oboukhov wrote: User MUST study each OS he uses. If he doesn't want he will be forced to pay the other people who will tune his (user's) system. I dispute your assertion that our users must study the operating system we build for them. I not only dispute it, I counter-assert that we should not require typical users to study anything much to be able to do typical things on their Debian machines. Exactly what constitutes a typical user and typical things to do is open to some interpretation and discussion. I'm not a guru, but I don't understand why Debian must be broken to please a user who doesn't want to read anything. You're insulting again. Please stop. Nobody here is interested in breaking Debian. We're interested in improving it. As part of the process, we propose things that may or may not be good ideas. If we can't do that without insults, we're much less likely to have a constructive discussion, and we'll definitely have fewer ideas proposed. That is a good way of making sure Debian will not get better. If you don't like, say, Network Manager, that's fine. Nobody is asking you to like it. If you want to oppose NM replacing ifupdown, that's also fine, but do it by explaining why it is a bad choice to make, without insults, pointing out problems, and making a clear, cohesive argument. It's a question of how you express your opinion, not whether it's an acceptable opinion. -- Blog/wiki/website hosting with ikiwiki (free for free software): http://www.branchable.com/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1301921130.2967.74.ca...@havelock.liw.fi
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
User MUST study each OS he uses. JM No, he must not. The OS must adapt to the user’s needs, not the JM opposite. Create OS that can even be used by stupid and only stupid will use that. If he doesn't want he will be forced to pay the other people who will tune his (user's) system. JM A lot of users actually pay for that indeed. I don’t see this as a JM problem, especially since it gets me to eat every day. I said we shouldn't care about people who choose to pay You money against (instead) to learn something. There is no discrimination here. JM Who talks about discrimination? It’s just being stubborn insisting that JM people do the things you say while you are in no position to order them. I'm not a guru, but I don't understand why Debian must be broken to please a user who doesn't want to read anything. JM If Debian could not be used without reading a manual, then I would call JM it broken. There is only one thing that can be used without reading a manual. It is a breast. All the other devices (and things, substances, etc) required to be studied. -- . ''`. Dmitry E. Oboukhov : :’ : email: un...@debian.org jabber://un...@uvw.ru `. `~’ GPGKey: 1024D / F8E26537 2006-11-21 `- 1B23 D4F8 8EC0 D902 0555 E438 AB8C 00CF F8E2 6537 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
On 04/04/2011 10:06 AM, Dmitry E. Oboukhov wrote: There is only one thing that can be used without reading a manual. It is a breast. All the other devices (and things, substances, etc) required to be studied. While this paraphrase of a familiar quote may be applicable when taken in context (in reference to user interfaces) it is not applicable here. Some *basic* familiarity with computer user interfaces is, of course, needed to use Debian. If you can type on a keyboard, know how to use a mouse to click icons, know what menus and folders are, how to start programs from menus and icons, well, I think you're off to a good start. That stuff, unlike the nipple, is all learned. The point is, assuming at least basic familiarity with computers, no user should be *unable* to use Debian without having to first read a manual! They should be able to boot a Debian system and right away start using it productively. Inability to connect to a (often wireless, these days) network is a show-stopper. Without a network, many users will not be able to accomplish *anything* on Debian. Now, NetworkManager seems to have delivered the goods, here, at least for the common use scenarios I typically see for new users. That's what makes it a good default. I say that without denying that for users comfortable with other methods, NM may be totally unsuitable, but I think for the majority of users, NM makes a better default. Ben -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4d99c521.6020...@sanctuary.nslug.ns.ca
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 05:35:10PM +0530, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le lundi 04 avril 2011 à 11:55 +0400, Stanislav Maslovski a écrit : Well, actually configuring a wireless network with wpa_supplicant and ifupdown is not hard at all and does not require too much time, _if_ a user has developed a good habbit of reading documentation first. It seems to be a common belief between some developers that users should have to read dozens of pages of documentation before attempting to do anything. I’m happy that not all of us share this elitist view of software. I thought we were building the Universal Operating System, not the Operating System for bearded gurus. I do not think that reading documentation before trying to achieve something is that elitist. And in the case of wpa_supplicant, it is definitely not dozens of pages. Basically, it is just man interfaces man wpa_supplicant.conf zless /usr/share/doc/wpasupplicant/README.Debian.gz (and for most cases just reading that README.Debian should be enough) It is also preferable in that sense that you configure it once and it works for years, surviving upgrades, etc. So in the end you conserve your time, and not loose your time. Do you even know in what kind of contexts a laptop with wireless connection is actually used? Because from your sentence it looks like you live in a different world. Perhaps, I do. I travel quite a lot, so I use my laptop in airports, libraries, hotels, etc. The wireless networks in public locations are usually open and do not require any specific configuration; the most of them are catched with a simple roaming setup outlined in that README from above, supplanted with a default /e/n/interfaces stanza for DHCP-based networks. If one instead prefers using a GUI, then there is wpa_gui with which one may scan for networks, select the needed one, change parameters, etc. I also use wireless at home and at the sites where I work. For these locations I have several fixed stanzas in /e/n/interfaces and in wpa_supplicant.conf that I do not need to touch at all. -- Stanislav -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110404133118.GA17213@kaiba.homelan
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
On 04/04/2011 10:31 AM, Stanislav Maslovski wrote: I do not think that reading documentation before trying to achieve something is that elitist. And in the case of wpa_supplicant, it is definitely not dozens of pages. Basically, it is just man interfaces man wpa_supplicant.conf zless /usr/share/doc/wpasupplicant/README.Debian.gz Without expert help, no new user will find these. A Debian Squeeze laptop user will have a broken network by default, and nothing obvious pointing them to the answer. Just a mute (if pretty) desktop, blankly defying them to get the network to work! The wireless networks in public locations are usually open and do not require any specific configuration; the most of them are catched with a simple roaming setup outlined in that README from above, supplanted with a default /e/n/interfaces stanza for DHCP-based networks. If one instead prefers using a GUI, then there is wpa_gui with which one may scan for networks, select the needed one, change parameters, etc. I have done user support with countless new users on irc, first on #debian-eeepc and recently, also on #debian. It is the very rare (bearded guru? good one :) new Debian user that will have a happy time jumping through the hoops to make wpa_supplicant work for them. And even once they manage to make it work, I've *still* seen cafe connections fail on my lovingly hand-crafted wpa_cli + wpa_supplicant setup that succeed when I reboot to a Squeeze GNOME live image with NM. I to this day have not been able to figure out why. I also use wireless at home and at the sites where I work. For these locations I have several fixed stanzas in /e/n/interfaces and in wpa_supplicant.conf that I do not need to touch at all. That's good for you, clearly. Nobody's trying to argue that your solution isn't a perfectly fine one for you, and others with similar needs. But the average laptop user really does have a hard time with the status quo. Something needs to change in the next release. Ben -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4d99ca01.9030...@sanctuary.nslug.ns.ca
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
Le lundi 04 avril 2011 à 10:39 -0300, Ben Armstrong a écrit : But the average laptop user really does have a hard time with the status quo. Something needs to change in the next release. I think squeeze already does a lot better, but there is still work to do, especially with the installation process. On my personal wishlist for wheezy is d-i actually calling NM behind the scenes to configure the network, instead of ifupdown. I’ll definitely try to find time to hack on this. -- .''`.Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1301925813.3448.160.camel@pi0307572
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
On 04/04/2011 11:03 AM, Josselin Mouette wrote: I think squeeze already does a lot better, but there is still work to do, especially with the installation process. On my personal wishlist for wheezy is d-i actually calling NM behind the scenes to configure the network, instead of ifupdown. I’ll definitely try to find time to hack on this. I'm definitely going to step up here to test whenever you have something ready, as my frustration with dealing with this issue, including my abortive attempt to get the /etc/network/interfaces munging fixed to make NM just work after an install have increased my desire for a more technically sound solution. Ben -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4d99d16a.5020...@sanctuary.nslug.ns.ca
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
I do not think that reading documentation before trying to achieve something is that elitist. And in the case of wpa_supplicant, it is definitely not dozens of pages. Basically, it is just man interfaces man wpa_supplicant.conf zless /usr/share/doc/wpasupplicant/README.Debian.gz I don't consider myself 'stupid user', but I haven't yet been able to put my laptop on wpa network without the use of network manager. /Sune -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/slrnipjlel.rvp.nos...@sshway.ssh.pusling.com
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 07:33:31PM +0530, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le lundi 04 avril 2011 à 10:39 -0300, Ben Armstrong a écrit : But the average laptop user really does have a hard time with the status quo. Something needs to change in the next release. I think squeeze already does a lot better, but there is still work to do, especially with the installation process. On my personal wishlist for wheezy is d-i actually calling NM behind the scenes to configure the network, instead of ifupdown. I’ll definitely try to find time to hack on this. Do you plan also to hack on network-manager itself so that it might become at least remotely reasonable alternative to ifupdown, or do you simply plan to follow the way redhat went, i.e., network manager as it is, even on server installations? Sould not there be an option to select between the old network configuration and NM? -- Stanislav -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110404145205.GA21595@kaiba.homelan
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 04:19:30PM +0400, Dmitry E. Oboukhov wrote: Well, actually configuring a wireless network with wpa_supplicant and ifupdown is not hard at all and does not require too much time, _if_ a user has developed a good habbit of reading documentation first. JM It seems to be a common belief between some developers that users should JM have to read dozens of pages of documentation before attempting to do JM anything. JM I’m happy that not all of us share this elitist view of software. I JM thought we were building the Universal Operating System, not the JM Operating System for bearded gurus. User MUST study each OS he uses. If he doesn't want he will be forced to pay the other people who will tune his (user's) system. There is no discrimination here. I'm not a guru, but I don't understand why Debian must be broken to please a user who doesn't want to read anything. For most people, a computer is just a tool. A versatile and complex tool, yes, but not all that complexity has to be exposed by default. Ben. -- Ben Hutchings We get into the habit of living before acquiring the habit of thinking. - Albert Camus -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110404145947.gm2...@decadent.org.uk
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
Hi
On Monday 04 April 2011, Sune Vuorela wrote:
I do not think that reading documentation before trying to achieve
something is that elitist. And in the case of wpa_supplicant, it is
definitely not dozens of pages. Basically, it is just
man interfaces
man wpa_supplicant.conf
zless /usr/share/doc/wpasupplicant/README.Debian.gz
I don't consider myself 'stupid user', but I haven't yet been able to
put my laptop on wpa network without the use of network manager.
The most simple case, one static wlan definition, no roaming:
/etc/network/interfaces:
allow-hotplug wlan0
iface wlan0 inet dhcp
wpa-ssid whatever
wpa-psk whatever
Simple roaming, 2 example networks (with differing priorities) and
catch-all for open networks, this allows automatic roaming between the
defined network setups:
/etc/network/interfaces:
allow-hotplug wlan0
iface wlan0 inet manual
wpa-roam /etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa-roam.conf
iface home_network inet dhcp
iface my_work_net inet dhcp
iface default inet dhcp
/etc/wpa_supplicant/wpa-roam.conf:
ctrl_interface=/var/run/wpa_supplicant
ctrl_interface_group=netdev
network={
priority=25
ssid=whatever
id_str=home_network
proto=WPA2
pairwise=CCMP
group=CCMP
psk=whatever
}
network={
priority=10
ssid=whatever
id_str=my_work_net
proto=WPA2
pairwise=CCMP
group=CCMP
psk=whatever
}
network={
priority=1
ssid=
key_mgmt=NONE
}
proto, pairwise and group are not really mandatory, but avoid stepping
down to WPA1 or TKIP, if another access point only offers that. psk can
be ASCII- (in quotes) or hexadecimal keys (64 characters). More complex
setups like IEEE8021X, certificates, TTLS/ PAP etc. can be configured
just as well. /usr/share/doc/wpasupplicant/examples/ can help quite a
lot for more exotic setups. ADSL/ PPPoE dial-in setups, in the absence
of routers, aren't much more difficult.
What's so nice about ifupdown (and wpasupplicant integration)?
It simply works with minimal dependencies and can be configured through
your preferred {,cli-} editor, which is an important use case for me.
It doesn't break on changing D-Bus interfaces and doesn't need
functional X11/ D-Bus for configuration or operations, nor breaks ssh
sessions during upgrades.
Besides not using netlink internally, ifupdown's biggest drawback in my
personal opinion is not reacting dynamically to changing connection
methods, like switching from wlan0 to eth0, if an ethernet cable gets
temporarily connected - ifplugd can act as a bandaid here, but is not
overly reliable (and possibly doesn't cover UMTS connections or other
mobile connections either, but I'm not sure about this).
On the other hand n-m isn't an option for server or (quasi-) headless
systems at all, be it due to large dependency chains (there is no D-Bus
or X.org installed on my servers) or simply unreliable operations
during remote upgrades (restarting the interface upon n-m upgrades).
While it's certainly a convenient configuration method for notebook
users, who switch often between different connectivity methods (ADSL/
PPPoE, ethernet, wlan, PPP over bluetooth/ PAN, UMTS/ 3g, WiMAX/ 4g or
different VPN profiles). However for me personally, a simple and
dependable ifupdown like solution, which can be configured/ operated
through the cli, and with minimal dependency chains is more important
than a pretty GUI.
Maybe new solutions targetted at the embedded sector, like ConnMan or
the new netlink based network manager planned for OpenWrt, can fill
this void, but personally I doubt network-manager can (or at least
will-) be adapted to work reliably for the afforementioned server like
use cases.
Regards
Stefan Lippers-Hollmann
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Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 06:06:28PM +0530, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le lundi 04 avril 2011 à 16:19 +0400, Dmitry E. Oboukhov a écrit : User MUST study each OS he uses. No, he must not. The OS must adapt to the user’s needs, not the opposite. If he doesn't want he will be forced to pay the other people who will tune his (user's) system. A lot of users actually pay for that indeed. I don’t see this as a problem, especially since it gets me to eat every day. By the way, I am glad that you spoke your mind so clearly. IMO, this agrees very much with the trends in free software development that solidified in the last decade: the development of popular free software is now concentrated within big corporations and is done in groups of well paid fulltimers. Those who still believe in the openness of this process must disillusion themselves: nowadays most of the development is driven by marketing. It is not surprising that marketing places an emphasis on simplicity to the detriment of configurability. Such marketing goals also explain why these groups usually agressively fight for domination. Nevertheless, I honestly hope that Debian, with its huge collection of free software, will contunue to provide freedom of choice to all types of its users, including those who disagree with marketing goals of big corporations. -- Stanislav -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110404171858.GA25705@kaiba.homelan
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 06:52:05PM +0400, Stanislav Maslovski wrote: Sould not there be an option to select between the old network configuration and NM? Nowhere have I seen it argued that NM will be the *only* networking solution for Debian going forward, merely the *default* one. In other words, yes, there should be an option: just like there is now. -- Jon Dowland -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110404173519.ga21...@deckard.alcopop.org
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 07:33:31PM +0530, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le lundi 04 avril 2011 à 10:39 -0300, Ben Armstrong a écrit : But the average laptop user really does have a hard time with the status quo. Something needs to change in the next release. I think squeeze already does a lot better, but there is still work to do, especially with the installation process. On my personal wishlist for wheezy is d-i actually calling NM behind the scenes to configure the network, instead of ifupdown. I’ll definitely try to find time to hack on this. I'm not well-familiar with NM. I'm more familiar with wicd. I do feel NM has some shortcomings for my habits: (Please feel free to correct me where I'm factually incorrect. I probably am) It does have system-global config file. But the settings are not expected to be there. By default the settings are expected to be in the user directory (has this changed since 0.8?). So I won't easily find it when I want to e.g. change configuration as root. This is unlike wicd that keeps everything under /etc/wicd . The configuration file is a simple, readable and intiutive text file (ini-file. No XML or such nonsense). Some documentation and examples would help. What bothers me, though, is that each entry requires a unique identifier field. Which makes it all too easy to make copypaste errors. The command-line interface (nmcli) seems to be rather usable from the little I have played with it. Another issue I have had with it in the past is debugging. At least in my experince, troubleshooting generally invloved killing the service and restarting it in debug mode. Which is something I would not really like to instruct a newb. I hope there are better ways to debug it without killing it. -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's tzaf...@cohens.org.il || best tzaf...@debian.org|| friend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110404173815.ge26...@pear.tzafrir.org.il
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 06:35:19PM +0100, Jon Dowland wrote: On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 06:52:05PM +0400, Stanislav Maslovski wrote: Sould not there be an option to select between the old network configuration and NM? Nowhere have I seen it argued that NM will be the *only* networking solution for Debian going forward, merely the *default* one. In other words, yes, there should be an option: just like there is now. I mean that such an option should be available from within the installer (at least in the expert mode) at the stage of the initial network configuration, if network-manager is going to replace ifupdown in this stage. -- Stanislav -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110404181000.GA29744@kaiba.homelan
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 2:38 PM, Tzafrir Cohen tzaf...@cohens.org.il wrote: [...] It does have system-global config file. But the settings are not expected to be there. By default the settings are expected to be in the user directory (has this changed since 0.8?). So I won't easily find it when I want to e.g. change configuration as root. This is unlike wicd that keeps everything under /etc/wicd . NM, prior to 0.9, had system-wide and user-specific connections. Those user-specific configurations were replaced in 0.9 by system-wide configurations with permissions. The system-wide connections are always (even prior to 0.9) in /etc as you'd expect. I use NM with system-wide WiFi connections only. I create the system wide configurations through a collection of scripts I've assembled (since the other NM command line clients were either broken at the time I tried them or not powerful enough) and NM automagically picks the right connections for me when I'm on the road. Regards, -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/BANLkTinZdpKsf-5Ks4qWayFCQwJXX=8...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
2011/4/4 Stanislav Maslovski stanislav.maslov...@gmail.com: I am not happy that network manager bypasses ifconfig to do this; I would have much preferred a daemon that could properly integrate with the existing infrastructure we had. Exactly. There is ifplugd that implements some of the functionality that is required to support dynamically appearing and disappearing connections. It is a simple daemon that calls ifupdown when needed, so that the old and good way of network configuration is respected. wicd has the same functionalities than network-manager and is compatible with ifconfig and the like. I have nothing against adding wicd or a daemon that is compatible with ifconfig and I think network-manager should be disqualified for that very reason. Romain -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/banlktikwrmerhag9xp7vu4ejoepdb0k...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 01:57:10PM -0500, Romain Beauxis wrote: 2011/4/4 Stanislav Maslovski stanislav.maslov...@gmail.com: I am not happy that network manager bypasses ifconfig to do this; I would have much preferred a daemon that could properly integrate with the existing infrastructure we had. Exactly. There is ifplugd that implements some of the functionality that is required to support dynamically appearing and disappearing connections. It is a simple daemon that calls ifupdown when needed, so that the old and good way of network configuration is respected. wicd has the same functionalities than network-manager and is compatible with ifconfig and the like. I considered using wicd some time ago, but gave up after reading information from its FAQ: http://wicd.sourceforge.net/moinmoin/FAQ -- Stanislav -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110404193420.GA2344@kaiba.homelan
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 07:29, Sune Vuorela nos...@vuorela.dk wrote: I do not think that reading documentation before trying to achieve something is that elitist. And in the case of wpa_supplicant, it is definitely not dozens of pages. Basically, it is just man interfaces man wpa_supplicant.conf zless /usr/share/doc/wpasupplicant/README.Debian.gz I don't consider myself 'stupid user', but I haven't yet been able to put my laptop on wpa network without the use of network manager. I never did get nm or wicd to work. Only with ifupdown+wpa_supplicant was I able to make WiFi work. This was with an ordinary home router with WPA2 PSK and an Atheros PCIe NIC This possibly explains why you will never see me supporting nm/wicd as a default. Cheers, Kelly Clowers -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/banlktim51nc4rpdxewhwdqdgvekszqp...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 11:42 AM, Stefan Lippers-Hollmann s@gmx.de wrote: [...] Besides not using netlink internally, ifupdown's biggest drawback in my personal opinion is not reacting dynamically to changing connection methods, like switching from wlan0 to eth0, if an ethernet cable gets temporarily connected - ifplugd can act as a bandaid here, but is not overly reliable (and possibly doesn't cover UMTS connections or other mobile connections either, but I'm not sure about this). AFAIK from following where I can the development of NM 0.9 upstream, looks like the issues with interaction with ifconfig, etc. might be on the way to being resolved. However, I'm just talking from very quickly glancing at commit messages. I can't even point to a specific entry. ;) On the other hand n-m isn't an option for server or (quasi-) headless systems at all, be it due to large dependency chains (there is no D-Bus or X.org installed on my servers) or simply unreliable operations during remote upgrades (restarting the interface upon n-m upgrades). While it's certainly a convenient configuration method for notebook users, who switch often between different connectivity methods (ADSL/ PPPoE, ethernet, wlan, PPP over bluetooth/ PAN, UMTS/ 3g, WiMAX/ 4g or different VPN profiles). However for me personally, a simple and dependable ifupdown like solution, which can be configured/ operated through the cli, and with minimal dependency chains is more important than a pretty GUI. I tend to agree there: NM somewhat breaks for server setups (and others purely CLI) for the above generic reasons. However, I do think some of these can be worked around seeing as upstream is both responsive and open to changes. X isn't required (nmcli works well, even though it can't create new connections). Other things like DBus might be required by other parts of the system. What's left is dealing with upgrades, but in Ubuntu at least upgrades shouldn't trigger restarting interfaces, exactly for the reason stated. I'm sure the same can be done in Debian if it wasn't done already. This said, I don't think NM can be the magic bullet to fix everything. Even RedHat while shipping NetworkManager on servers last I checked, still relies on their simpler command-line setup for interfaces. So should we. Defaulting to using NM probably takes care of the widest audience who would use DHCP and such, and others can fall back to ifupdown or a successor to do the more complicated things like bridging. What this gives is a standard experience on desktops and servers for the majority of use cases, with as much room as necessary for the most complex configurations. Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre mathieu...@gmail.com Freenode: cyphermox, Jabber: mathieu...@gmail.com 4096R/EE018C93 1967 8F7D 03A1 8F38 732E FF82 C126 33E1 EE01 8C93 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/BANLkTimNcj3qsxNUB6oRH7ij3p=dltx...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre mathieu...@gmail.com wrote: [...] This said, I don't think NM can be the magic bullet to fix everything. Even RedHat while shipping NetworkManager on servers last I checked, still relies on their simpler command-line setup for interfaces. So should we. Defaulting to using NM probably takes care of the widest audience who would use DHCP and such, and others can fall back to ifupdown or a successor to do the more complicated things like bridging. Also note that there are NM plugins that enable NM to understand /etc/network/interfaces and the Fedora/RHEL counterparts. This means that if a server has NM enabled and an administrator wants to configure networking manually, he can do it just fine even if NM is installed. NM will gracefully understand that and won't try to do anything stupid (see /etc/NetworkManager/NetworkManager.conf). For servers using DHCP, you don't even have to create a connection. Wired interfaces are already automatically configured to use DHCP in NM. For the other cases, just use the legacy tools or configure /etc/network/interfaces and set managed=true in /etc/NetworkManager/NetworkManager.conf (not sure if the latter works, never tested it). Regards, -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/BANLkTi=91F41twWq=henpcw0r5uvykt...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
On Mon, Apr 04, 2011 at 07:39:23PM -0300, Fernando Lemos wrote: On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 6:23 PM, Mathieu Trudel-Lapierre mathieu...@gmail.com wrote: [...] This said, I don't think NM can be the magic bullet to fix everything. Even RedHat while shipping NetworkManager on servers last I checked, still relies on their simpler command-line setup for interfaces. So should we. Defaulting to using NM probably takes care of the widest audience who would use DHCP and such, and others can fall back to ifupdown or a successor to do the more complicated things like bridging. Also note that there are NM plugins that enable NM to understand /etc/network/interfaces and the Fedora/RHEL counterparts. This means that if a server has NM enabled and an administrator wants to configure networking manually, he can do it just fine even if NM is installed. NM will gracefully understand that and won't try to do anything stupid (see /etc/NetworkManager/NetworkManager.conf). The mentioned plugin is nothing more than just a rather primitive parser intended to read a limited set of common interface settings such as ip addresses, netmasks, dns servers, etc., from the existing /e/n/interfaces file for the ease of transition. The plugin simply translates these settings into the internal representation of NM. It is not intended to interoperate with the ifupdown infrastructure in any other way. Therefore, it is generally useless for an administrator that wants to configure network interfaces manually. For servers using DHCP, you don't even have to create a connection. Wired interfaces are already automatically configured to use DHCP in NM. For the other cases, just use the legacy tools or configure /etc/network/interfaces and set managed=true Accordingly to docs here http://live.gnome.org/NetworkManager/SystemSettings that should be actually managed=false if you want an interface to be completely ignored by NM. in /etc/NetworkManager/NetworkManager.conf (not sure if the latter works, never tested it). -- Stanislav -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20110405002005.GA11761@kaiba.homelan
Re: Back to technical discussion? Yes! (was: network-manager as default? No!)
On Mon, Apr 4, 2011 at 9:20 PM, Stanislav Maslovski stanislav.maslov...@gmail.com wrote: [...] Also note that there are NM plugins that enable NM to understand /etc/network/interfaces and the Fedora/RHEL counterparts. This means that if a server has NM enabled and an administrator wants to configure networking manually, he can do it just fine even if NM is installed. NM will gracefully understand that and won't try to do anything stupid (see /etc/NetworkManager/NetworkManager.conf). The mentioned plugin is nothing more than just a rather primitive parser intended to read a limited set of common interface settings such as ip addresses, netmasks, dns servers, etc., from the existing /e/n/interfaces file for the ease of transition. The plugin simply translates these settings into the internal representation of NM. It is not intended to interoperate with the ifupdown infrastructure in any other way. Therefore, it is generally useless for an administrator that wants to configure network interfaces manually. Yes, it's just a parser. It can still be used to configure NM via /etc/network/interfaces, at least according to README.Debian (never tried that): Managed mode will make NetworkManager manage all devices and will make NetworkManager honour all dhcp and static configurations for wired and wireless devices. Which means you should be able to keep using /etc/network/interfaces for simple setup. ifupdown and friends will not work in that scenario, or the other way around, obviously. For servers using DHCP, you don't even have to create a connection. Wired interfaces are already automatically configured to use DHCP in NM. For the other cases, just use the legacy tools or configure /etc/network/interfaces and set managed=true Accordingly to docs here http://live.gnome.org/NetworkManager/SystemSettings that should be actually managed=false if you want an interface to be completely ignored by NM. Yes, it's managed=false, sorry. That's the default in Debian AFAICT, which means that /etc/network/interfaces takes precedence. Regards, -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/banlktinwjizcqy0spdt-wbjndvhm2_h...@mail.gmail.com
