Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 04:41:35AM +0200, Ulrich Dangel wrote: On 08/08/12 04:11, Marco d'Itri wrote: Fedora did it a few months ago, so probably we should do it as well to minimize the pain. As far as I know (based on https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=458176 / http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/SbinSanity ) Fedora changed it in 2008. It seems that Ubuntu also has the sbin directories in PATH per default (via /etc/environment) since at least 2006. In which case any pain we were likely to suffer has been suffered already, so that's one fewer reason to make the change. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120817082705.GB17970@debian
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 12:40:42PM +0100, Roger Leigh wrote: Warning the user that they are using an obsolete tool is IMO entirely justified, particularly when there is a much better and more capable replacement. And there's plenty of precedent: $ ffmpeg ffmpeg version 0.8.3-6:0.8.3-4, Copyright (c) 2000-2012 the Libav developers built on Jun 26 2012 09:26:41 with gcc 4.7.1 *** THIS PROGRAM IS DEPRECATED *** This program is only provided for compatibility and will be removed in a future release. Please use avconv instead. (even if the above is somewhat misleading) And the wodim/cdrecord messages. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120817083717.GC17970@debian
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 10:22:03AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: Hi, I haven't followed if they're actually doing any work. I've been on the mailing list, and so far it's mostly been crickets. The person who was driving the effort has been busy with other LSB work. Well there was a healthy discussion before the break in at kernel.org and the Linux Foundation. Then it took some time to get all services back up for the linux foundation which kind of killed the drive to get something done on the FHS front for most people. We should really try to continue the FHS discussion on the FHS list as Steve already pointed out. I guess someone has just to start it again but currently everyone, including myself, fails to get up to do that. As far as I know the bugtracker is also backup, so one could start with reviewing the bugs and posting an overview of the pending issue. The sad thing is that currently the Fedora people are the only ones moving forward for good or worse. We've already seen this in the systemd discussion about 'kind of configuration' files outside of /etc. Sven -- We are what you say We are not what you think [ Dead Sara - We are what you say ] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120812124758.GD3253@colin
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On 08/09/2012 11:43 PM, Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez wrote: As of DebianSqueeze, if you ask for the Desktop task during the installation, that pulls in sudo with a default configuration that automatically grants sudo-ing rights to any member of the sudo group. Depending on what user accounts you set up during the install, it's still possible that you may not have been added to that group - you can check by running groups. http://wiki.debian.org/sudo So, how can be the we add the first user of the system to sudoers and we don't add sbin to his default paths? For the record and at least up to squeeze, you do have a sudo group but you are *not* added to that group. Second thing I do in a new installation after adding sbin to path is adding myself to sudo group... but that being a default is more debatable ;) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/5024b020.6070...@qindel.com
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Fri, Aug 10, 2012 at 08:54:24AM +0200, Alberto Fuentes wrote: For the record and at least up to squeeze, you do have a sudo group but you are *not* added to that group. If you are using an empty root password during installation, you do get sudo rights. Kind regards Philipp Kern signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 01:53:24PM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote: The FHS and the guarantees it provides about what users can expect from their system is still important. If Debian thinks we need to diverge from the FHS on something as major as the existence of /sbin, that's a conversation we should be having in the FHS WG first before implementing it. +1 Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120809063228.ga32...@an3as.eu
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 07:44:25PM +0200, Vincent Bernat wrote: ❦ 8 août 2012 12:21 CEST, David Given david.gi...@gmail.com : ifconfig (before this discussion I'd never even *heard* of ip) All what is inside net-tools package is old and hardly maintained. arp can be replaced by ip neigh, ifconfig by ip addr or ip link, route by ip route, ipmaddr by ip maddr, mii-tool by ethtool, netstat by ss, nameif by ip link, iptunnel by ip tunnel. iproute and ethtool packages are kept in sync with kernels and allow the user to use the latest features. Apologies for the rant mode: # mii-tool eth0: negotiated 100baseTx-FD flow-control, link ok # ethtool ethtool: bad command line argument(s) For more information run ethtool -h # ethtool -h | grep ' ethtool' | grep -v DEVNAME ethtool -h|--help Show this help ethtool --version Show version number So no, it's not a simple replacement. While I'm in rant mode, note that there's no programmable bash completion for the subcommands of ip. I wasn't aware of ip neigh. -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's tzaf...@cohens.org.il || best tzaf...@debian.org|| friend -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120809081646.gj12...@pear.tzafrir.org.il
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On 08/08/12 12:11, Thomas Goirand wrote: On 08/08/2012 10:32 AM, Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez wrote: I think this is a great idea :) You can't imagine how much I blame Debian each time I have to type the full path /sbin/ifconfig as a non-root user on virtual servers to just know the IP address the DHCP server assigned to the machine. Start using the right tool for the job (I mean: ip addr show), and stop blaming Debian. Using ifconfig by the way will show you only part of the information (eg: if there's more than one IP assign, ifconfig will not show it). I am aware of the shortcomings of ifconfig. However it is still a nice and valid tool to just show the ip address the DHCP server assigned to a machine (AFAIK DHCP servers only assign one IP address per interface) Also ip is only available for Linux kernels, but ifconfig is available on any *nix. Furthermore the output formatting of ifconfig is more user friendly than the one of ip. If ifconfig is the only reason why we should move everything, change $PATH and so on, please find a better excuse, because I'm not at all buying into that one! After reading the thread, I think that probably the better idea is to: * Fix #312669 * Add /sbin:/usr/sbin to the PATH of the first user (uid 1000) Since on single-user machines (laptops/PCs) I think is a valid assumption to think that the (probably) unique user of the machine is also the administrator of that machine. So he will probably find useful to have the administrative commands on his path. Also on multi-user machines (servers) the first user installed is probably the user the sysadmin will use for himself. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Thu, 9 Aug 2012 08:16:46 +, Tzafrir Cohen wrote: [...] While I'm in rant mode, note that there's no programmable bash completion for the subcommands of ip. I wasn't aware of ip neigh. For a brief shell size war interlude, note that there is zsh completion for the subcommands of ip. -- Michał Politowski Talking has been known to lead to communication if practiced carelessly. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120809094026.ga13...@meep.pl
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Thu, 2012-08-09 at 12:14, Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez wrote: On 08/08/12 12:11, Thomas Goirand wrote: On 08/08/2012 10:32 AM, Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez wrote: [...] on any *nix. Furthermore the output formatting of ifconfig is more user friendly than the one of ip. It depends of that who is the 'friend'. -- Kind regards, Milan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120809110711.gc21...@arvanta.net
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 09:58:51PM +0200, Philipp Kern wrote: On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 07:54:59PM +0200, Andrew Shadura wrote: On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 19:44:25 +0200 Vincent Bernat ber...@debian.org wrote: arp can be replaced by ip neigh, ifconfig by ip addr or ip link, route by ip route, ipmaddr by ip maddr, mii-tool by ethtool, netstat by ss, nameif by ip link, iptunnel by ip tunnel. iproute and ethtool packages are kept in sync with kernels and allow the user to use the latest features. ...And completely lack full documentation on all of them, yeah? Hm? There are manual pages[1]. Also ip is able to support IPv6 with the same syntax (like arp → neigh for both) by just passing -6. Actually, like most good tools, ip supports IPv4 and IPv6 together. You can filter for one or the other with -4 and -6 respectively. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On 08/09/2012 06:14 PM, Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez wrote: I am aware of the shortcomings of ifconfig. However it is still a nice and valid tool to just show the ip address the DHCP server assigned to a machine (AFAIK DHCP servers only assign one IP address per interface) With all the due respect, only considering this one use case (eg: when using dhcp and you need to know the IP address) is a quite short sighted view. Also ip is only available for Linux kernels, but ifconfig is available on any *nix. ifconfig has a different output depending on the *nix (eg: formatting is different IIRC). Saying it's the same thing isn't fully right. Furthermore the output formatting of ifconfig is more user friendly than the one of ip. A tool which potentially hides part of the information (eg: other IPs that may have been assigned to an interface, link status, type of scheduling, etc.) can't be called more user friendly. At the maximum, you can tell that you like it better and know it better, but that's probably it. When we are talking about IPv4, then it's probably right to tell that having multiple IPs on a single interface isn't a very common setup. But for IPv6, that's another story! It's very common to setup more than one IP per iface with IPv6. And yes, we should consider IPv6 as important. After reading the thread, I think that probably the better idea is to: * Fix #312669 Yes. But we shouldn't mix #312669 with the title of the thread, both issues should be addressed totally separately, and #312669 shouldn't be used as an excuse to mess everything. Same for all other utilities that might have been wrongly put in sbin. * Add /sbin:/usr/sbin to the PATH of the first user (uid 1000) Since on single-user machines (laptops/PCs) I think is a valid assumption to think that the (probably) unique user of the machine is also the administrator of that machine. So he will probably find useful to have the administrative commands on his path. Also on multi-user machines (servers) the first user installed is probably the user the sysadmin will use for himself. What you are proposing here is a hack based on dangerous assumptions. Why can't you customize your own computer $PATH for your user, if you feel this way? Also, I quite not understand why ifconfig is so important in the eyes of many participant to this thread, when there's an alternative, when other tools without other implementation would deserve much more attention. Others have already listed few tools, but here's my own list too: - tc (to be used with /sbin/tc qdisc show for example) - All partitioning / formatting utilities (mkfs, resize2fs, etc.) But that's about it. Why not trying to fix those instead? Cheers, Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50241818.5040...@debian.org
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On 09/08/12 04:05 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote: When we are talking about IPv4, then it's probably right to tell that having multiple IPs on a single interface isn't a very common setup. But for IPv6, that's another story! It's very common to setup more than one IP per iface with IPv6. And yes, we should consider IPv6 as important. Just for the record, ifconfig seems to display multiple IPv6 addresses just fine: $ ifconfig eth0 eth0 Link encap:Ethernet HWaddr 00:30:48:87:0d:fa inet addr:64.15.147.134 Bcast:64.15.147.159 Mask:255.255.255.224 inet6 addr: 2607:f748:1200:f9::4:1/64 Scope:Global inet6 addr: 2607:f748:1200:f9::5:f/64 Scope:Global inet6 addr: 2607:f748:1200:f9::2:f/64 Scope:Global inet6 addr: 2607:f748:1200:f9::a:1/64 Scope:Global ... etc. This ifconfig hiding of extra addresses appears to be an IPv4-only problem. Jason Rhinelander -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50241cef.4040...@jagerman.com
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On 09/08/12 22:05, Thomas Goirand wrote: What you are proposing here is a hack based on dangerous assumptions. Why you say this is a dangerous assumption? I am not proposing adding this to already installed machines via upgrades, but to add this feature to d-i, so it automatically adds sbin dirs to the path of the first user on new installs. I believe that many newbie users could be confused when they type on the console random-sbin-command and get command not found or they aren't able to use tab completion to discover that this commands are available on their system. Why can't you customize your own computer $PATH for your user, if you feel this way? Already did long time ago. Just trying to improve the defaults :) Also, I quite not understand why ifconfig is so important in the eyes of many participant to this thread, when there's an alternative, when other tools without other implementation would deserve much more attention. Others have already listed few tools, but here's my own list too: - tc (to be used with /sbin/tc qdisc show for example) - All partitioning / formatting utilities (mkfs, resize2fs, etc.) But that's about it. Why not trying to fix those instead? These are two different things. Of course I agree with fixing the sbin files that should be in bin. But at the same time I think that adding sbin to the path of the first user on d-i is a good idea. I bet that the first user of the 90% of the systems (uid 1000) is also the admin of that machine. Either because is a single-user machine (laptop/pc) or because he is the one which installed the server and therefore is the sysadmin. Furthermore I believe that also this first user is added to sudoers by d-i when installing a new Debian system As of DebianSqueeze, if you ask for the Desktop task during the installation, that pulls in sudo with a default configuration that automatically grants sudo-ing rights to any member of the sudo group. Depending on what user accounts you set up during the install, it's still possible that you may not have been added to that group - you can check by running groups. http://wiki.debian.org/sudo So, how can be the we add the first user of the system to sudoers and we don't add sbin to his default paths? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
The 'ip' command is in /bin/ip and always available in PATH. It is the currently recommended swiss-army chainsaw network tool. Give it a try. $ ip addr show Or: $ ip addr show eth0 And of course you can add the sbins to your PATH in .profile so that you have what you want always. (I always add the sbin's to my PATH.) Bob Hi, what exactly is the actually reason that a default normal user has ip in his PATH but not ifconfig (also route)? Both tools provide similar functions for both root-users and non-root-user. I think that should be more consistent. (which way to make it consistent is another point, though) Kind Regards, Michael signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
Quoting Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org): Sure, certainly true. But, assuming that we have a consensus that the distinction no longer matters and just causes extra work (something that I'm inclined to agree with but that I don't think we can assume we've decided on yet), I hate to see us doing the expedient thing because doing the right thing is too hard. Isn't there something called FHS and which would be the thing to change first? Or aren't we sticking to the FHS anyway or just don't care? I'm probably a bit old school here, but I think that the distinction between bin and sbin still makes sense. Maybe some binaries are misplaced (for instance, if ifconfig makes sense to be used as normal user, then it should be moved to /bin) but is that a reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater? And, if we keep /*/bin and /*/sbin separated, then it makes sense to NOT have /*/sbin in the normal users' PATH. TBH, I'm not entirely sure that taking Fedora as example here is the best option, but I might be biased:) trollWe could also put everything in the same directory, call it /windows and include it in the default PATH./troll signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
❦ 8 août 2012 09:02 CEST, Christian PERRIER bubu...@debian.org : I'm probably a bit old school here, but I think that the distinction between bin and sbin still makes sense. Maybe some binaries are misplaced (for instance, if ifconfig makes sense to be used as normal user, then it should be moved to /bin) but is that a reason to throw the baby out with the bathwater? Moving ifconfig to /bin would break a lot of things calling `/sbin/ifconfig`. -- Don't over-comment. - The Elements of Programming Style (Kernighan Plauger) pgpgbwDjn83CL.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
Hi, Moving ifconfig to /bin would break a lot of things calling `/sbin/ifconfig`. there could be a link for compatiblity Kind Regards, Michael signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 09:02:13AM +0200, Christian PERRIER wrote: Isn't there something called FHS and which would be the thing to change first? Or aren't we sticking to the FHS anyway or just don't care? If we keep /sbin as a symlink to /bin, and similarly for the other sbin directories, we're still compatible with the FHS. -- I wrote a book on personal productivity: http://gtdfh.branchable.com/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On 08/08/2012 03:16 AM, Ulrich Dangel wrote: Currently the default PATH for Debian does not include /sbin, /usr/sbin, nor /usr/local/sbin. If an user wants to run a program in either /sbin/ or /usr/sbin the full path must be specified. Or the user just adds those directories to $PATH in $SHELLrc/profile/ Experienced users should be able to do this easily. And those who don't knwo what to do with the tools in */sbin/* probably don't want/need them in $PATH. So I think at least for now its just fine to have the directories and PATH settings separated. -- Bernd ZeimetzDebian GNU/Linux Developer http://bzed.dehttp://www.debian.org GPG Fingerprint: ECA1 E3F2 8E11 2432 D485 DD95 EB36 171A 6FF9 435F -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/502218a8.6060...@bzed.de
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On 08/08/2012 09:43 AM, Bernd Zeimetz wrote: Experienced users should be able to do this easily. And those who don't knwo what to do with the tools in */sbin/* probably don't want/need them in $PATH. I think the topic in here is good defaults for debian/more common case no if debian/users are able to handle such changes. :) I also add sbin to path as one the first steps after installation and i think is a good thing. Not sure whats the best technical approach tho ( merge directories, add to path... link to bin only for those binaries that make sense there...) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50222327.9090...@qindel.com
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Mittwoch, 8. August 2012, Michael Stummvoll wrote: what exactly is the actually reason that a default normal user has ip in his PATH but not ifconfig (also route)? hysteric raisins. (ip a convinced me to use ip instead of ifconfig: it's shorter to type.) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/201208081032.30796.hol...@layer-acht.org
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On 08/08/2012 10:32 AM, Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez wrote: I think this is a great idea :) You can't imagine how much I blame Debian each time I have to type the full path /sbin/ifconfig as a non-root user on virtual servers to just know the IP address the DHCP server assigned to the machine. Start using the right tool for the job (I mean: ip addr show), and stop blaming Debian. Using ifconfig by the way will show you only part of the information (eg: if there's more than one IP assign, ifconfig will not show it). If ifconfig is the only reason why we should move everything, change $PATH and so on, please find a better excuse, because I'm not at all buying into that one! Thomas Goirand (zigo) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50223b38.3060...@debian.org
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
Hi, On 08.08.2012 10:32, Holger Levsen wrote: On Mittwoch, 8. August 2012, Michael Stummvoll wrote: what exactly is the actually reason that a default normal user has ip in his PATH but not ifconfig (also route)? hysteric raisins. historic, rather. ifconfig and route were around already when everyone insisted on the separation of /bin and /sbin. /bin/ip is slightly newer and supposed to replace ifconfig/route some day entirely. I don't think we have concrete plans to get rid of net-tools in a foreseeable future though. -- with kind regards, Arno Töll IRC: daemonkeeper on Freenode/OFTC GnuPG Key-ID: 0x9D80F36D signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On 08/08/2012 04:28 PM, Alberto Fuentes wrote: On 08/08/2012 09:43 AM, Bernd Zeimetz wrote: Experienced users should be able to do this easily. And those who don't knwo what to do with the tools in */sbin/* probably don't want/need them in $PATH. I think the topic in here is good defaults for debian/more common case no if debian/users are able to handle such changes. :) I also add sbin to path as one the first steps after installation and i think is a good thing. Not sure whats the best technical approach tho ( merge directories, add to path... link to bin only for those binaries that make sense there...) Exactly what do you need from sbin as a user? If you have some examples, then please file bugs... Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50223be8.5010...@debian.org
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
Hi, On 08.08.2012 12:11, Thomas Goirand wrote: Start using the right tool for the job (I mean: ip addr show), and stop blaming Debian. Using ifconfig by the way will show you only part of the information (eg: if there's more than one IP assign, ifconfig will not show it). ifconfig eth0 192.168.0.1 up ifconfig eth0:0 192.168.0.2 up ifconfig It does not list addresses you added with ip without adding a sub-interface, however. With respect to visibility, one might wonder if doing that that is a good idea after all. -- with kind regards, Arno Töll IRC: daemonkeeper on Freenode/OFTC GnuPG Key-ID: 0x9D80F36D signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Aug 08, Arno Töll a...@debian.org wrote: historic, rather. ifconfig and route were around already when everyone insisted on the separation of /bin and /sbin. /bin/ip is slightly newer and supposed to replace ifconfig/route some day entirely. Just for the records, iproute entirely replaced ifconfig/route long ago. The only reason for keeping around the old programs is compatibility with other packages not yet updated and to not scare people who do not know better. (Does anybody want to try removing net-tools and see what breaks?) -- ciao, Marco signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Aug 08, Russ Allbery r...@debian.org wrote: Sure, certainly true. But, assuming that we have a consensus that the distinction no longer matters and just causes extra work (something that I'm inclined to agree with but that I don't think we can assume we've decided on yet), I hate to see us doing the expedient thing because doing the right thing is too hard. Is the goal fixing a problem or reaching some ideal of file system organization? Merging /sbin and /bin right now does not solve any other problem than changing the $PATH, but requires *much* more work. -- ciao, Marco signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 03:16:59AM +0200, Ulrich Dangel wrote: Currently the default PATH for Debian does not include /sbin, /usr/sbin, nor /usr/local/sbin. If an user wants to run a program in either /sbin/ or /usr/sbin the full path must be specified. Changing the default PATH for normal users to include /sbin, /usr/sbin as well as /usr/local/sbin would be a great thing for simplifying command line usage for normal users. Could you please tell me a single benefit from such a change? All I see are downsides. It would degrade tab completion and pollute the namespace. The reason you say, is a single obsolete tool, ifconfig, being in the wrong directory. So let's instead move it to /bin/ -- or preferably, to /dev/null (unless depended upon). -- Copyright and patents were never about promoting culture and innovations; from the very start they were legalized bribes to give the king some income and to let businesses get rid of competition. For some history, please read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Monopolies_1623 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808103640.ga13...@angband.pl
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
Thomas Goirand wrote: [...] Exactly what do you need from sbin as a user? I use stuff from sbin as user all the time. A quick glance at /sbin shows these commands that I use on a regular basis: blkid fdisk all the fscks all the mkfss hdparm ifconfig (before this discussion I'd never even *heard* of ip) iwconfig mount.cifs parted route showmount Like the parent, I add /sbin and /usr/sbin to my path immediately after installing a new Debian system. -- ┌─── ｄｇ＠ｃｏｗｌａｒｋ．ｃｏｍ ─ http://www.cowlark.com ─ │ Parents let children ride bicycles on the street. But parents do not │ allow children to hear vulgar words. Therefore we can deduce that │ cursing is more dangerous than being hit by a car. --- Scott Adams -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50223db4.9000...@gmail.com
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On 08/08/2012 12:14 PM, Thomas Goirand wrote: On 08/08/2012 04:28 PM, Alberto Fuentes wrote: On 08/08/2012 09:43 AM, Bernd Zeimetz wrote: Experienced users should be able to do this easily. And those who don't knwo what to do with the tools in */sbin/* probably don't want/need them in $PATH. I think the topic in here is good defaults for debian/more common case no if debian/users are able to handle such changes. :) I also add sbin to path as one the first steps after installation and i think is a good thing. Not sure whats the best technical approach tho ( merge directories, add to path... link to bin only for those binaries that make sense there...) Exactly what do you need from sbin as a user? If you have some examples, then please file bugs... Thomas blkid, brctl, ifconfig, route, run-level are my main reasons. There might be more... Other distros looked for similar functionality using the easier way to do it, that is, adding path to $PATH but im not sure if thats the best technical solution (nor i know what that would be) Since we are not lazy and pursue technical excellence, we can think of what makes more sense. Maybe add a few links to bin for the binaries that make sense is more than enough. In any case we should unify criteria. Mount seems to rest in /bin instead of /sbin for example... Maybe merge directories is what makes more sense nowadays... I dont know :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50224611.6050...@qindel.com
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
David Given david.gi...@gmail.com writes: Thomas Goirand wrote: [...] Exactly what do you need from sbin as a user? I use stuff from sbin as user all the time. A quick glance at /sbin shows these commands that I use on a regular basis: blkid fdisk all the fscks all the mkfss hdparm ifconfig (before this discussion I'd never even *heard* of ip) iwconfig mount.cifs parted route showmount Like the parent, I add /sbin and /usr/sbin to my path immediately after installing a new Debian system. But, you know what those commands do, and I think we can agree, that most - if not all - of them are quite close to being tools for the admin, even if they don't necessarily require root. A 'regular' user on a multi-user system will not likely need any of them. It *might* make sense to (optionally) add */sbin to the PATH of the first user installed. I wouldn't add it for everyone else too, however. -- |8] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/877gt9myyz.fsf@algernon.balabit
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 12:22:50PM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote:
On Aug 08, Arno Töll a...@debian.org wrote:
historic, rather. ifconfig and route were around already when everyone
insisted on the separation of /bin and /sbin. /bin/ip is slightly newer
and supposed to replace ifconfig/route some day entirely.
Just for the records, iproute entirely replaced ifconfig/route long ago.
The only reason for keeping around the old programs is compatibility
with other packages not yet updated and to not scare people who do not
know better.
Using ifconfig can have quite nasty effects: for example, it will hide any
IPv4 addresses beyond the first on an interface, leading to hard to diagnose
problems.
(Does anybody want to try removing net-tools and see what breaks?)
[{...}/debian/unpacked/binary]$ grep -rlF ifconfig {,s}bin usr/{,s}bin etc
(attached)
395 matches. A bunch are false positives, or even alternate implementations
(like busybox). And emacs, which apparently uses ifconfig too.
121 packages, too many to even think about getting rid of ifconfig in the
short term...
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from the very start they were legalized bribes to give the king some income
and to let businesses get rid of competition. For some history, please read
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statute_of_Monopolies_1623
bin/busybox
etc/ahcp/ahcp-config.sh
etc/apf-firewall/firewall
etc/apf-firewall/internals/internals.conf
etc/apf-firewall/vnet/main.vnet
etc/apf-firewall/vnet/vnetgen
etc/apm/suspend.d/linux-wlan-ng-suspend
etc/arno-iptables-firewall/plugins/dsl-ppp-modem.conf
etc/avahi/avahi-autoipd.action
etc/avr-evtd/EventScript
etc/complete.tcsh
etc/fake/.fakerc
etc/fwsnort/fwsnort.conf
etc/ha.d/rc.d/ip-request
etc/init.d/bind9
etc/init.d/dhcp-probe
etc/init.d/dirsrv
etc/init.d/dirsrv-admin
etc/init.d/mopd
etc/init.d/pmacct
etc/init.d/uacctd
etc/init.d/wmaloader
etc/isdn/init.d.functions
etc/kvm/kvm-ifup
etc/logcheck/ignore.d.server/openvpn
etc/network/if-pre-up.d/wireless-tools
etc/network/if-up.d/00check-network-cable
etc/procmeterrc
etc/procmeterrc.install
etc/psad/psad.conf
etc/qemu-ifup
etc/rootstrap/dhclient-script
etc/tkdesk/AppBar
etc/tkdesk/AppBar_Be
etc/udhcpc/default.script
etc/vmware-tools/scripts/vmware/network
etc/vmware-tools/vm-support
etc/vpnc/vpnc-script
etc/vtund.conf
etc/vz/dists/scripts/debian-3.x-add_ip.sh
etc/vz/dists/scripts/debian-add_ip.sh
etc/vz/dists/scripts/debian-del_ip.sh
etc/vz/dists/scripts/redhat-7.x_add_ip.sh
etc/vz/dists/scripts/redhat-add_ip.sh
etc/vz/dists/scripts/redhat-del_ip.sh
etc/vz/dists/scripts/slackware-9.x_del_ip.sh
etc/vz/dists/scripts/slackware-del_ip.sh
etc/vz/dists/scripts/suse-8.x_del_ip.sh
etc/vz/dists/scripts/suse-del_ip.sh
etc/whereami/whereami.conf
etc/wicd/scripts/preconnect/set_wireless_mac_from_eth0
etc/wlan/shared
etc/wpa_supplicant/functions.sh
etc/xen/scripts/network-bridge
etc/xen/scripts/network-nat
etc/xen/scripts/qemu-ifup
etc/xen/scripts/vif-bridge
etc/xen/scripts/vif-nat
etc/xen/scripts/vif-route
etc/xen/scripts/vif-route-adt
etc/xen/scripts/vtpm-common.sh
sbin/bastille-ipchains
sbin/bastille-netfilter
sbin/essidscan
sbin/ifconfig
sbin/ifenslave-2.6
sbin/ifquery
sbin/setether
sbin/wifichoice.sh
sbin/wlanctl-ng
usr/bin/anytun-config
usr/bin/anytun-controld
usr/bin/anytun-showtables
usr/bin/ayttm
usr/bin/ccontrol-init
usr/bin/checkgmail
usr/bin/checkint
usr/bin/colgui
usr/bin/colmux
usr/bin/condor_gather_info
usr/bin/ctdb_diagnostics
usr/bin/dyndns
usr/bin/emacs23-lucid
usr/bin/emacs23-nox
usr/bin/emacs23-x
usr/bin/emacs24-lucid
usr/bin/emacs24-nox
usr/bin/emacs24-x
usr/bin/fwb_ipf
usr/bin/fwb_ipfw
usr/bin/fwb_ipt
usr/bin/fwb_pf
usr/bin/fwbuilder
usr/bin/inetutils-ifconfig
usr/bin/kvpnc
usr/bin/ldap-debian-edu-install
usr/bin/lsat
usr/bin/ltsp-cluster-info
usr/bin/mason
usr/bin/mgpnet
usr/bin/nast
usr/bin/network-config
usr/bin/network-test
usr/bin/netwox
usr/bin/nmon
usr/bin/ocat
usr/bin/ppc.real
usr/bin/purge_relay_logs
usr/bin/rkhunter
usr/bin/sb2-build-qemuserver
usr/bin/servefile
usr/bin/sitesummary2ldapdhcp
usr/bin/skyeye
usr/bin/tcpflow
usr/bin/timpsd
usr/bin/traffic_manager
usr/bin/traffic_shell
usr/bin/vde_l3
usr/bin/xnetcardconfig.real
usr/sbin/airbase-ng
usr/sbin/aireplay-ng
usr/sbin/airmon-ng
usr/sbin/airodump-ng
usr/sbin/airserv-ng
usr/sbin/airtun-ng
usr/sbin/anytun
usr/sbin/autosupport
usr/sbin/cf-agent
usr/sbin/cf-execd
usr/sbin/cf-key
usr/sbin/cf-know
usr/sbin/cf-monitord
usr/sbin/cf-promises
usr/sbin/cf-report
usr/sbin/cf-runagent
usr/sbin/cf-serverd
usr/sbin/cfagent
usr/sbin/cfenvd
usr/sbin/cfenvgraph
usr/sbin/cfexecd
usr/sbin/cfkey
usr/sbin/cfrun
usr/sbin/cfservd
usr/sbin/cfshow
usr/sbin/chkrootkit
usr/sbin/ddclient
usr/sbin/easside-ng
usr/sbin/edge
usr/sbin/fake
usr/sbin/fiaif-getdev
usr/sbin/firestarter
usr/sbin/fwcheck_psad
usr/sbin/fwsnort
usr/sbin/gadmin-bind
usr/sbin/gadmin-openvpn-server
usr/sbin/gvpe
usr/sbin/hb_report
usr/sbin/hostapd
usr/sbin/iodine
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On 08/08/2012 06:21 PM, David Given wrote: ifconfig (before this discussion I'd never even *heard* of ip) This kind of remark make be say that probably, it'd be nice to have ifconfig display a warning as this one: ifconfig is deprecated, please use ip instead Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50224ce3.9090...@debian.org
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
Hello, On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 19:26:27 +0800 Thomas Goirand z...@debian.org wrote: This kind of remark make be say that probably, it'd be nice to have ifconfig display a warning as this one: ifconfig is deprecated, please use ip instead It'd be terrible. Please don't even think of it, okay? Let people decide themselves what to use. -- WBR, Andrew signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On 08/08/2012 12:59 PM, Gergely Nagy wrote: But, you know what those commands do, and I think we can agree, that most - if not all - of them are quite close to being tools for the admin, even if they don't necessarily require root. A 'regular' user on a multi-user system will not likely need any of them. It *might* make sense to (optionally) add */sbin to the PATH of the first user installed. I wouldn't add it for everyone else too, however. Where do you put the line there? what does average non admin joe want/need? I dont think is up to us to decide what will the user want/need to use/know. We should allow to run any binary that makes sense to run by default without root permission and there is no need to be that condescending with the user [extra non usuful comments] Those commands without root permissions are not dangerous. ifconfig seems the most obvious that a non expert would want to run. ipconfig/ifconfig eth0 are easy to run/remember. ip addr show eth0 is not. ip has too many switches/options. Its nice and its my tool of choice as an admin, but i would not say is user friendly and i understand it will be hard to kill (if it is ever killed) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50224fbc.5000...@qindel.com
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 01:30:54PM +0200, Andrew Shadura wrote: On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 19:26:27 +0800 Thomas Goirand z...@debian.org wrote: This kind of remark make be say that probably, it'd be nice to have ifconfig display a warning as this one: ifconfig is deprecated, please use ip instead It'd be terrible. Please don't even think of it, okay? Let people decide themselves what to use. As a distribution we have to decide on a default, and that is ip. We took the effort to remove all use of ifconfig from ifupdown and other related tools for wheezy precisely to make it removable and optional, so that it can eventually be removed. While it's fine for an end user to continue to use ifconfig, we should continue to remove its use by ourselves and in programs in Debian. Warning the user that they are using an obsolete tool is IMO entirely justified, particularly when there is a much better and more capable replacement. Regards, Roger -- .''`. Roger Leigh : :' : Debian GNU/Linuxhttp://people.debian.org/~rleigh/ `. `' schroot and sbuild http://alioth.debian.org/projects/buildd-tools `-GPG Public Key F33D 281D 470A B443 6756 147C 07B3 C8BC 4083 E800 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808114042.gy25...@codelibre.net
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
Russ Allbery dixit: I don't see any point in doing this as opposed to just moving everything from sbin into bin and making sbin a symlink to bin. Alone the pain to do so (and the complaints from traditionalists) should be enough to not do that. There’s also the “if I want to have a look at what commands on the system are used for administering, I can just ls /sbin /usr/sbin” thing. Additionally, non-sudo users (especially on Derivatives, but maybe also on Debian itself) might want to have that excluded again (e.g. by the person administering their system), which would not work were they all in one directory. That being said, for a mostly-tech OS, having the sbins in the $PATH is A Good Thing. In MirBSD, I’ve been using that for years. bye, //mirabilos -- “Having a smoking section in a restaurant is like having a peeing section in a swimming pool.” -- Edward Burr -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/pine.bsm.4.64l.1208081154120.12...@herc.mirbsd.org
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
Hello! Andrew Shadura has written on Wednesday, 8 August, at 13:30: On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 19:26:27 +0800 Thomas Goirand z...@debian.org wrote: This kind of remark make be say that probably, it'd be nice to have ifconfig display a warning as this one: ifconfig is deprecated, please use ip instead It'd be terrible. Please don't even think of it, okay? Let people decide themselves what to use. And also it'd be completely incorrect. It should be said instead: ifconfig is deprecated on Debian Linux, please use ip instead since ip is Linux-only tool if someone of you don't know and all other Unix-like OS still use ifconfig as main tool and on any Unix I ever had some account command like 'ifconfig -a' is de-facto standard one. World doesn't consist only of Debian Linux you know. :) And BTW, ip command is harder to use and it rather should be in the category 'admin tool' than in the 'user tool'. With best wishes. Andriy. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808120744.ga5...@rep.kiev.ua
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On 08/08/2012 08:07 PM, Andrej N. Gritsenko wrote: And BTW, ip command is harder to use and it rather should be in the category 'admin tool' than in the 'user tool'. That's the 2nd time we have someone writing this in this thread. However, ip is user accessible, while ifconfig isn't. So there's something wrong here, either on the reasoning or on the implementation (I would vote for the reasoning to be wrong: a user with no knowledge would write click on the network manager applet and then click on Connection Information, rather than using the command line tool). Just my 2 cents :) Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50226106.4000...@debian.org
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On 08/08/2012 07:16 PM, Adam Borowski wrote: 121 packages, too many to even think about getting rid of ifconfig in the short term... I agree. However, proposing to put ifconfig in a user accessible way, when it is in fact the wrong tool, is going backward, not forward. Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/502261bc.5070...@debian.org
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On 2012-08-08 13:38:36 +0200, Alberto Fuentes wrote: [extra non usuful comments] Those commands without root permissions are not dangerous. ifconfig seems the most obvious that a non expert would want to run. ipconfig/ifconfig eth0 are easy to run/remember. ip addr show eth0 is not. ip has too many switches/options. Its nice and its my tool of choice as an admin, but i would not say is user friendly and i understand it will be hard to kill (if it is ever killed) And ip is not standard (not present on every Linux systems), whereas I don't know any system without ifconfig. Anyway it's up to the user to choose the commands he wants. -- Vincent Lefèvre vinc...@vinc17.net - Web: http://www.vinc17.net/ 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: http://www.vinc17.net/blog/ Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808131158.ga25...@xvii.vinc17.org
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Wed, 2012-08-08 at 12:22 +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote: On Aug 08, Arno Töll a...@debian.org wrote: historic, rather. ifconfig and route were around already when everyone insisted on the separation of /bin and /sbin. /bin/ip is slightly newer and supposed to replace ifconfig/route some day entirely. Just for the records, iproute entirely replaced ifconfig/route long ago. The only reason for keeping around the old programs is compatibility with other packages not yet updated and to not scare people who do not know better. (Does anybody want to try removing net-tools and see what breaks?) I found unconditional use of ifconfig in: /etc/init.d/bind9 /etc/qemu-ifup /etc/network/if-pre-up.d/wireless-tools (wireless-tools must die too, though) Ben. -- Ben Hutchings Theory and practice are closer in theory than in practice. - John Levine, moderator of comp.compilers signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On 08/08/12 12:36, Adam Borowski wrote: Could you please tell me a single benefit from such a change? All I see are downsides. It would degrade tab completion and pollute the namespace. Access to programs without the need to specify the full path. Not all programs in the sbin directories require root privileges. It is about providing good defaults for users. The reason you say, is a single obsolete tool, ifconfig, being in the wrong directory. So let's instead move it to /bin/ -- or preferably, to /dev/null (unless depended upon). Not just ifconfig, there is also route, iwconfig, blkid etc. And moving them to other directories and add symlinks from sbin/$PROG to bin/$PROG is error prone. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/5022678b.2010...@spamt.net
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 03:20:11PM +0200, Ulrich Dangel wrote: Not just ifconfig, there is also route, iwconfig, blkid etc. And moving them to other directories and add symlinks from sbin/$PROG to bin/$PROG is error prone. Normal users do not need to know or care about these tools. Only admins use them, or tools that set things up on behalf of the user. Having them in the default path serves no purpose other than a minor convenience to a minority of users. The number of times I've wished e.g. blkid was in my path is... zero. Having these immediately accessible to all users isn't strictly bad, but may cause confusion and just pollutes the namespace for tab completion etc. If you want them in your path, it's trivial to add /sbin to it yourself. I can't see any compelling reason to make them the default. Regards, Roger -- .''`. Roger Leigh : :' : Debian GNU/Linuxhttp://people.debian.org/~rleigh/ `. `' schroot and sbuild http://alioth.debian.org/projects/buildd-tools `-GPG Public Key F33D 281D 470A B443 6756 147C 07B3 C8BC 4083 E800 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808133843.gz25...@codelibre.net
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 10:32:30AM +0200, Holger Levsen wrote: On Mittwoch, 8. August 2012, Michael Stummvoll wrote: what exactly is the actually reason that a default normal user has ip in his PATH but not ifconfig (also route)? hysteric raisins. Funny expression :-) (ip a convinced me to use ip instead of ifconfig: it's shorter to type.) Well shorter to type but longer to scroll back with IPv6 :-) But I do agree to use ip command. Osamu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808133538.GB8500@goofy.localdomain
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On 2012-08-08 14:38:44 +0100, Roger Leigh wrote: Normal users do not need to know or care about these tools. For some of them, they do. Normal users don't need most programs installed in /usr/bin, so let's split this directory? :) Only admins use them, or tools that set things up on behalf of the user. Having them in the default path serves no purpose other than a minor convenience to a minority of users. This is also true for most programs in /usr/bin. The number of times I've wished e.g. blkid was in my path is... zero. Having these immediately accessible to all users isn't strictly bad, but may cause confusion and just pollutes the namespace for tab completion etc. Programs in /usr/bin also pollute the namespace for tab completion. Anyway, if you don't like that, get a better shell. For instance, some executables could be specifically ignored for tab completion (possible until you use them for the first time). Note: there are 3351 files in my /usr/bin, vs 354 for /usr/sbin and 212 for /sbin, so that adding /usr/sbin and /sbin to $PATH wouldn't change much. What would need to be improved is the completion system, based on what the user really uses. -- Vincent Lefèvre vinc...@vinc17.net - Web: http://www.vinc17.net/ 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: http://www.vinc17.net/blog/ Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808135732.gb25...@xvii.vinc17.org
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On 08/08/2012 09:11 PM, Vincent Lefevre wrote: And ip is not standard (not present on every Linux systems), whereas I don't know any system without ifconfig. Then, what do you use to list multiple IPs on a single interface? ifconfig simply doesn't support it. IMHO, if there's distros with ifconfig but not ip, then such distro doesn't deserve much attention. The standard *is* ip, it's a much more powerful tool that does all you need (you can't say the same thing with ifconfig). Anyway it's up to the user to choose the commands he wants. If that was truth, then let's forget about Debian and let's use Windows. Also, for example, d-i has ip, but not ifconfig, IIRC. Also, if the user is using the wrong tool, we might want to teach him the right way. Also... So I'm afraid it's not *always* up to the user to choose, for the good or the worst. By the way: echo alias ifconfig='ip a' .bashrc problem solved... ;) Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50227141@debian.org
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On 08/08/2012 09:20 PM, Ulrich Dangel wrote: Not all programs in the sbin directories require root privileges. Then they have nothing to do in sbin. I'm serious: *please file a bug* !!! :) It is about providing good defaults for users. Agreed. Which is why you should file a bug so that such tool which you miss in bin should be moved away from sbin. That doesn't mean we should do it for *all* of the tools. What would be the point, for example, to have these accessible to the user: - depmod/insmod/etc. - swapon/swapoff - agetty - init - etc. The point of having sbin *is* to have things away from the user's path, IMO. If that doesn't fit for some of the tools you use, then, again, please file a bug against the relevant packages. But please, don't make it a general case. That's just wrong. Otherwise, we should do what Russ is proposing: merge sbin completely and put everything in bin. Because what would be the point of sbin then? Cheers, Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/50227317.4000...@debian.org
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On 08/08/12 15:38, Roger Leigh wrote: The number of times I've wished e.g. blkid was in my path is... zero. What about iwconfig, ifconfig, route, modinfo, iw, fsck, mkfs.*, fsck, … It is not just about one tool or There are for examples two symlinks for lsmod to /bin/kmod (/sbin/lsmod and /bin/lsmod). With sbin in PATH this would not be necessary. Having these immediately accessible to all users isn't strictly bad, but may cause confusion and just pollutes the namespace for tab completion etc. If you want them in your path, it's trivial to add /sbin to it yourself. I can't see any compelling reason to make them the default. Many things are trivial but I think it would be best to ship good defaults in Debian. And have all programs available for tab completion without the need to specify sudo in front is in my opinion a good default. There is also a question how to discover/find new tools, e.g: ifconfig doesn't work but sudo ifconfig does. ifcotab doesn't work etc. This is in my opinion inconsistent and changing PATH to include the sbin directories would fix that. It is not like Debian would be the first one, other Distributions like Arch, Ubuntu and Fedora have added the sbin directories some time ago and it seems to work without a problem for them. cheers, Ulrich signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On 2012-08-08 22:01:37 +0800, Thomas Goirand wrote: On 08/08/2012 09:11 PM, Vincent Lefevre wrote: And ip is not standard (not present on every Linux systems), whereas I don't know any system without ifconfig. Then, what do you use to list multiple IPs on a single interface? ifconfig simply doesn't support it. None of my machines have multiple IPs on a single interface. So, I guess that for the time being, this isn't much a problem. IMHO, if there's distros with ifconfig but not ip, then such distro doesn't deserve much attention. When this is the only distro for the hardware, there isn't much choice. -- Vincent Lefèvre vinc...@vinc17.net - Web: http://www.vinc17.net/ 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: http://www.vinc17.net/blog/ Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808142359.gc25...@xvii.vinc17.org
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
Hi, On 08.08.2012 16:01, Thomas Goirand wrote: IMHO, if there's distros with ifconfig but not ip, then such distro doesn't deserve much attention. The standard *is* ip, it's a much more powerful tool that does all you need (you can't say the same thing with ifconfig). If you do not use ip, you have no way to assign more than one IP address to the same interface. Thus, there won't be any feature missing and sub-interfaces providing the same functionality are supported as I said earlier today. Yes, ip is more powerful but with ifconfig, route, vconfig, mii-tool and arp you have roughly the same functionality ip provides in a very cryptic user interface. The standard is *not* ip, the difference is just that iproute2 has a more active upstream than net-tools. At some point we might be urged to make a decision, but I don't see much interest to get rid of net-tools entirely now. Neither outside Debian. Anyway it's up to the user to choose the commands he wants. If that was truth, then let's forget about Debian and let's use Windows. Please keep the discussion on a factual level. Also, for example, d-i has ip, but not ifconfig, IIRC. Roger gave you the rationale earlier today. This is a reasonably new change. Also, if the user is using the wrong tool, we might want to teach him the right way. net-tools is not exactly the wrong tool.. By the way: echo alias ifconfig='ip a' .bashrc That's not going to work and you know that. I hope you do at least. -- with kind regards, Arno Töll IRC: daemonkeeper on Freenode/OFTC GnuPG Key-ID: 0x9D80F36D signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 10:09:27PM +0800, Thomas Goirand wrote: On 08/08/2012 09:20 PM, Ulrich Dangel wrote: Not all programs in the sbin directories require root privileges. Then they have nothing to do in sbin. I'm serious: *please file a bug* !!! :) I think you're conflating system administrators with root. The FHS stats that sbin directories are for maintenance and/or administrative tasks Not all of these tasks need root privileges, but then most (hopefully all) of them should not be necessary to normal users. Maybe the compromise is to have the sbin directories in the path of users in the staff group. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
Hello, On Wed, 8 Aug 2012 12:40:42 +0100 Roger Leigh rle...@codelibre.net wrote: As a distribution we have to decide on a default, and that is ip. We took the effort to remove all use of ifconfig from ifupdown and other related tools for wheezy precisely to make it removable and optional, so that it can eventually be removed. It's perfectly fine to make it optional so the system doesn't require it, but complete removal seriously affects usability. Ifconfig is much more human-oriented, and it's not Linux-only, as some people mentioned here. While it's fine for an end user to continue to use ifconfig, we should continue to remove its use by ourselves and in programs in Debian. Warning the user that they are using an obsolete tool is IMO entirely justified, particularly when there is a much better and more capable replacement. I don't think any warning is justified. I use ifconfig quite often, and seeing any warnings is very annoying. It's the same situation as with idn(1), which used to display information about it's LGPL license every time you run it, which for me as a user is just on-screen rubbish which prevents me from receiving the information effectively. Also, when it becomes an optional package, it's completely user's choice to install it, so we shall respect it and not to warn anyone. A kind of warning may be put as the last paragraph of the package description, however, so users know what they're doing when they install it. Ifconfig is perfectly fine for many tasks and I can't seen why it should be wiped or anything. Same applies to route(8), which produces more readable output for IPv4 (but not for IPv6). As for netstat(8), I don't know a better tool. P.S. There are complaints about net-tools that they use old APIs. Okay, complainers are free to port them to newer ones, probably adding support for multiple IPv4 addresses or anything, but please keep the interface as close as possible to what we have now. -- WBR, Andrew signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
Hello! Thomas Goirand has written on Wednesday, 8 August, at 22:01: On 08/08/2012 09:11 PM, Vincent Lefevre wrote: And ip is not standard (not present on every Linux systems), whereas I don't know any system without ifconfig. Then, what do you use to list multiple IPs on a single interface? ifconfig simply doesn't support it. In fact, I have multiple IPs on a single interface right now on the machine where I write this letter. And I never used 'ip' before for configuring it and probably I never will. Have you ever heared of such thing as 'interface alias'? It's what I always used on *BSD, Linux, and other *nix systems. And yes, command 'ifconfig' shows me those IPs too. So I would say, such very distro-specific tool as 'ip' will never ever can be called as 'standard' one. I'm sorry. IMHO, if there's distros with ifconfig but not ip, then such distro doesn't deserve much attention. The standard *is* ip, it's a much more powerful tool that does all you need (you can't say the same thing with ifconfig). You mean MacOS-X, *BSD, Solaris, etc. are all dead and breaking the standards? You've made me laugh. :) Cheers! Andriy. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808145657.ga7...@rep.kiev.ua
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
ifconfig eth0 192.168.0.1 up ifconfig eth0:0 192.168.0.2 up ifconfig It does not list addresses you added with ip without adding a sub-interface, however. With respect to visibility, one might wonder if doing that that is a good idea after all. There are serval ways: - Some users prefer subinterfaces - Some users prefer interfaces with multiple adresses - Some users prefer bridge-interfaces TIMTOWTDI ;) Kind Reagards, Michael signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 04:26:54PM +0200, Arno Töll wrote: Hi, On 08.08.2012 16:01, Thomas Goirand wrote: IMHO, if there's distros with ifconfig but not ip, then such distro doesn't deserve much attention. The standard *is* ip, it's a much more powerful tool that does all you need (you can't say the same thing with ifconfig). If you do not use ip, you have no way to assign more than one IP address to the same interface. Probably not, but these are not the only programs that might be used to assign an IP address. Thus, there won't be any feature missing and sub-interfaces providing the same functionality are supported as I said earlier today. Yes, ip is more powerful but with ifconfig, route, vconfig, mii-tool and arp you have roughly the same functionality ip provides in a very cryptic user interface. ethtool is the more general substitute for mii-tool. mii-tool can show you more information about MDIO (clause 22) PHYs, but many Ethernet interfaces do not have these. The standard is *not* ip, the difference is just that iproute2 has a more active upstream than net-tools. At some point we might be urged to make a decision, but I don't see much interest to get rid of net-tools entirely now. Neither outside Debian. [...] net-tools last released in 2001. It's barely kept alive by Debian and Gentoo maintainers, so far as I can see. Anyway, I thought the argument is that net-tools should be deprecated and reduced in priority, not that it must be removed altogether. Ben. -- Ben Hutchings We get into the habit of living before acquiring the habit of thinking. - Albert Camus -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808152213.gn1...@decadent.org.uk
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 05:56:57PM +0300, Andrej N. Gritsenko wrote: Hello! Thomas Goirand has written on Wednesday, 8 August, at 22:01: On 08/08/2012 09:11 PM, Vincent Lefevre wrote: And ip is not standard (not present on every Linux systems), whereas I don't know any system without ifconfig. Then, what do you use to list multiple IPs on a single interface? ifconfig simply doesn't support it. In fact, I have multiple IPs on a single interface right now on the machine where I write this letter. And I never used 'ip' before for configuring it and probably I never will. Have you ever heared of such thing as 'interface alias'? Yes, it's a horrible hack. It's what I always used on *BSD, Linux, and other *nix systems. And yes, command 'ifconfig' shows me those IPs too. So I would say, such very distro-specific tool as 'ip' will never ever can be called as 'standard' one. I'm sorry. It is Linux-specific, not distro-specific. IMHO, if there's distros with ifconfig but not ip, then such distro doesn't deserve much attention. The standard *is* ip, it's a much more powerful tool that does all you need (you can't say the same thing with ifconfig). You mean MacOS-X, *BSD, Solaris, etc. are all dead and breaking the standards? You've made me laugh. :) ifconfig was not specified in any standard. If you ever actually tried to script address configuration on multiple platforms (I did, I used to work on network test automation) you'll find that there is actually almost no portability. Ben. -- Ben Hutchings We get into the habit of living before acquiring the habit of thinking. - Albert Camus -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808152457.go1...@decadent.org.uk
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
Lars Wirzenius l...@liw.fi writes: On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 09:02:13AM +0200, Christian PERRIER wrote: Isn't there something called FHS and which would be the thing to change first? Or aren't we sticking to the FHS anyway or just don't care? If we keep /sbin as a symlink to /bin, and similarly for the other sbin directories, we're still compatible with the FHS. Also, FHS development seems to be effectively dead. We're already carrying a fairly large collection of exceptions. One more wouldn't make a tremendous difference as long as there's no major user behavior change, and the symlinks would take care of that. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87ipctwdu8@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
Alberto Fuentes alberto.fuen...@qindel.com writes: I think the topic in here is good defaults for debian/more common case no if debian/users are able to handle such changes. :) I also add sbin to path as one the first steps after installation and i think is a good thing. Yes, likewise here. I've had sbin in my path for 15 years. Every UNIX I've used had similar problems where binaries were in sbin for no particularly good reason. Yes, we could file bugs and go to the work of moving things and leaving symlinks behind to not break other things, but that's a lot of work. And it's ongoing work to keep things sorted into the right place. Whereas if we moved everything and left a symlink behind, that's way more work in the short run but then we would be done and no one would have to think about the distinction again. I've never seen a system that really gets this right, where I didn't occasionally want to run stuff in sbin as a regular user, so I'm skeptical that it's possible to do a good job at this. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87ehnhwdpo@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
Hello! Ben Hutchings has written on Wednesday, 8 August, at 16:24: On 08/08/2012 09:11 PM, Vincent Lefevre wrote: IMHO, if there's distros with ifconfig but not ip, then such distro doesn't deserve much attention. The standard *is* ip, it's a much more powerful tool that does all you need (you can't say the same thing with ifconfig). You mean MacOS-X, *BSD, Solaris, etc. are all dead and breaking the standards? You've made me laugh. :) ifconfig was not specified in any standard. If you ever actually tried to script address configuration on multiple platforms (I did, I used to work on network test automation) you'll find that there is actually almost no portability. Yes, I know that. But if you read again what I said - I haven't said ifconfig is standard but I said ip is much more far from being standard than ifconfig is so ifconfig should stay alive yet. Cheers! Andriy. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808162958.gc7...@rep.kiev.ua
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
Thorsten Glaser t...@mirbsd.de writes: There’s also the “if I want to have a look at what commands on the system are used for administering, I can just ls /sbin /usr/sbin” thing. Have you done this recently? I seriously doubt anyone is going to read through those 416 programs (on my system; counts will vary), most of which are not, in fact, at all useful for administering the system. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/877gt9wdil@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 07:29:58PM +0300, Andrej N. Gritsenko wrote: Hello! Ben Hutchings has written on Wednesday, 8 August, at 16:24: On 08/08/2012 09:11 PM, Vincent Lefevre wrote: IMHO, if there's distros with ifconfig but not ip, then such distro doesn't deserve much attention. The standard *is* ip, it's a much more powerful tool that does all you need (you can't say the same thing with ifconfig). You mean MacOS-X, *BSD, Solaris, etc. are all dead and breaking the standards? You've made me laugh. :) ifconfig was not specified in any standard. If you ever actually tried to script address configuration on multiple platforms (I did, I used to work on network test automation) you'll find that there is actually almost no portability. Yes, I know that. But if you read again what I said - I haven't said ifconfig is standard but I said ip is much more far from being standard than ifconfig is so ifconfig should stay alive yet. ip is the Linux standard. networksetup is the OS X standard. All other Unixes are ~irrelevant. Ben. -- Ben Hutchings We get into the habit of living before acquiring the habit of thinking. - Albert Camus -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808164231.gp1...@decadent.org.uk
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 09:28:03AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: Yes, we could file bugs and go to the work of moving things and leaving symlinks behind to not break other things, but that's a lot of work. And it's ongoing work to keep things sorted into the right place. Whereas if we moved everything and left a symlink behind, that's way more work in the short run but then we would be done and no one would have to think about the distinction again. If we did want to do a blanket move of everything in /sbin to /bin (and for /usr/sbin to /usr/bin), we could do this in a single operation in e.g. base-files. It wouldn't require any path changes in individual packages, but we would need to fix any name clashes first, and also to bail out if any were found during the upgrade. It should be possible to do entirely atomically as well if we hardlink the binaries, and then replace the dir with a symlink. Regards, Roger -- .''`. Roger Leigh : :' : Debian GNU/Linuxhttp://people.debian.org/~rleigh/ `. `' schroot and sbuild http://alioth.debian.org/projects/buildd-tools `-GPG Public Key F33D 281D 470A B443 6756 147C 07B3 C8BC 4083 E800 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808164835.ga25...@codelibre.net
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 09:25:19AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: Also, FHS development seems to be effectively dead. We're already carrying a fairly large collection of exceptions. One more wouldn't make a tremendous difference as long as there's no major user behavior change, and the symlinks would take care of that. There may be hope of an FHS revival: http://www.linuxfoundation.org/collaborate/workgroups/lsb/fhs I haven't followed if they're actually doing any work. -- I wrote a book: http://gtdfh.branchable.com/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
Lars Wirzenius l...@liw.fi writes: On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 09:25:19AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: Also, FHS development seems to be effectively dead. We're already carrying a fairly large collection of exceptions. One more wouldn't make a tremendous difference as long as there's no major user behavior change, and the symlinks would take care of that. There may be hope of an FHS revival: http://www.linuxfoundation.org/collaborate/workgroups/lsb/fhs I haven't followed if they're actually doing any work. I've been on the mailing list, and so far it's mostly been crickets. The person who was driving the effort has been busy with other LSB work. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87obmluwn8@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 12:22:50PM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote: (Does anybody want to try removing net-tools and see what breaks?) On my debian systems net-tools are removed, had to recompile openvpn with ip support and run openswan from experimental without any problems since 4 months. Kind regards Harald Jenny -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808170856.gc3...@harald-has.a-little-linux-box.at
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
❦ 8 août 2012 09:15 CEST, Michael Stummvoll mich...@stummi.org : Moving ifconfig to /bin would break a lot of things calling `/sbin/ifconfig`. there could be a link for compatiblity If we start symlinking, a symlink from /sbin to /bin seems easier. Once we start a breach, we'll get more and more requests. For example, I would see: - brctl - ethtool - ifconfig - route - sysctl Looking at /sbin for those, I also discover there are already a lot of symlinks. On my system, on 216 files, I have 80 symlinks. -- Let the machine do the dirty work. - The Elements of Programming Style (Kernighan Plauger) pgp0eX9Yn6ThQ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
❦ 8 août 2012 09:43 CEST, Bernd Zeimetz be...@bzed.de : Currently the default PATH for Debian does not include /sbin, /usr/sbin, nor /usr/local/sbin. If an user wants to run a program in either /sbin/ or /usr/sbin the full path must be specified. Or the user just adds those directories to $PATH in $SHELLrc/profile/ Experienced users should be able to do this easily. And those who don't knwo what to do with the tools in */sbin/* probably don't want/need them in $PATH. Unexperencied users are those that will have hard time to understand why ifconfig returns command not found. -- printk(HPFS: G... Kernel memory corrupted ... going on, but it'll crash very soon :-(\n); 2.4.3 linux/fs/hpfs/super.c pgpd2ZyS72zja.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
❦ 8 août 2012 16:56 CEST, Andrej N. Gritsenko and...@rep.kiev.ua : Then, what do you use to list multiple IPs on a single interface? ifconfig simply doesn't support it. In fact, I have multiple IPs on a single interface right now on the machine where I write this letter. And I never used 'ip' before for configuring it and probably I never will. Have you ever heared of such thing as 'interface alias'? It's what I always used on *BSD, Linux, and other *nix systems. And yes, command 'ifconfig' shows me those IPs too. So I would say, such very distro-specific tool as 'ip' will never ever can be called as 'standard' one. I'm sorry. Many tools will not use interface aliases. On the top of my head, automatic IPv6 configuration, DHCP clients and routing daemons. However, interface aliases are also useful for ifupdown. -- HARDFAIL(Not enough magic.); 2.4.0-test2 /usr/src/linux/drivers/block/nbd.c pgp6Z7GXddKVC.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
❦ 8 août 2012 12:21 CEST, David Given david.gi...@gmail.com : ifconfig (before this discussion I'd never even *heard* of ip) All what is inside net-tools package is old and hardly maintained. arp can be replaced by ip neigh, ifconfig by ip addr or ip link, route by ip route, ipmaddr by ip maddr, mii-tool by ethtool, netstat by ss, nameif by ip link, iptunnel by ip tunnel. iproute and ethtool packages are kept in sync with kernels and allow the user to use the latest features. -- Replace repetitive expressions by calls to a common function. - The Elements of Programming Style (Kernighan Plauger) pgpjCi9fmS03C.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
Hello, On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 19:44:25 +0200 Vincent Bernat ber...@debian.org wrote: arp can be replaced by ip neigh, ifconfig by ip addr or ip link, route by ip route, ipmaddr by ip maddr, mii-tool by ethtool, netstat by ss, nameif by ip link, iptunnel by ip tunnel. iproute and ethtool packages are kept in sync with kernels and allow the user to use the latest features. ...And completely lack full documentation on all of them, yeah? -- WBR, Andrew signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On 08/08/2012 10:10 PM, Ulrich Dangel wrote: Many things are trivial but I think it would be best to ship good defaults in Debian. And have all programs available for tab completion without the need to specify sudo in front is in my opinion a good default. There is also a question how to discover/find new tools, e.g: ifconfig doesn't work but sudo ifconfig does. ifcotab doesn't work etc. This is in my opinion inconsistent and changing PATH to include the sbin directories would fix that. It is not like Debian would be the first one, other Distributions like Arch, Ubuntu and Fedora have added the sbin directories some time ago and it seems to work without a problem for them. cheers, Ulrich Here, you are mixing multiple problems into a single one. - shell auto completion - location of binaries - PATH environment variable - sudo usage - the fact that ifconfig isn't in a user's path By the way, ifconfig doesn't implement all the features that Linux offers, which makes it the wrong tool to learn / use. If you aren't convince, see #222676 (reported in 2003), #525012, #119616 (reported in 2001), #324306, etc. Then, I came across #312669 ! Astonishing. It's been since 2005 that absolutely most of the issues of this thread have been discussed already. I don't think all this is reasonable. If the main issue is finding ifconfig with auto completion, then #312669 should be fixed. It seems that there's a near consensus that it's annoying (well, I'm ok with using ip a like H01lger, but it seems there's some other hold school guys that don't want to learn new stuff...). So, is there *anyone* that would not agree with moving ifconfig in /bin (or at least a symlink to it)? Shouldn't we address bugs that are 7 years old and annoying a lot of people? :) Cheers, Thomas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/5022abab.1070...@debian.org
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
❦ 8 août 2012 19:54 CEST, Andrew Shadura bugzi...@tut.by : arp can be replaced by ip neigh, ifconfig by ip addr or ip link, route by ip route, ipmaddr by ip maddr, mii-tool by ethtool, netstat by ss, nameif by ip link, iptunnel by ip tunnel. iproute and ethtool packages are kept in sync with kernels and allow the user to use the latest features. ...And completely lack full documentation on all of them, yeah? You have ip(8), ip-addr(8), ip-link(8), ip-neighbour(8), etc. They seem fairly up-to-date. It is a recent effort. They are not present in Squeeze for example. -- panic (No CPUs found. System halted.\n); 2.4.3 linux/arch/parisc/kernel/setup.c pgp159aCeeo76.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 07:54:59PM +0200, Andrew Shadura wrote: Hello, On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 19:44:25 +0200 Vincent Bernat ber...@debian.org wrote: arp can be replaced by ip neigh, ifconfig by ip addr or ip link, route by ip route, ipmaddr by ip maddr, mii-tool by ethtool, netstat by ss, nameif by ip link, iptunnel by ip tunnel. iproute and ethtool packages are kept in sync with kernels and allow the user to use the latest features. ...And completely lack full documentation on all of them, yeah? I believe all ethtool features are documented, and as the upstream maintainer I insist on documentation for all new features. iproute2 documentation was somewhat lacking, but as Vincent says it has been improved a lot recently. Ben. -- Ben Hutchings We get into the habit of living before acquiring the habit of thinking. - Albert Camus -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808184810.gq1...@decadent.org.uk
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 07:54:59PM +0200, Andrew Shadura wrote: On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 19:44:25 +0200 Vincent Bernat ber...@debian.org wrote: arp can be replaced by ip neigh, ifconfig by ip addr or ip link, route by ip route, ipmaddr by ip maddr, mii-tool by ethtool, netstat by ss, nameif by ip link, iptunnel by ip tunnel. iproute and ethtool packages are kept in sync with kernels and allow the user to use the latest features. ...And completely lack full documentation on all of them, yeah? Hm? There are manual pages[1]. Also ip is able to support IPv6 with the same syntax (like arp → neigh for both) by just passing -6. Kind regards Philipp Kern [1] ip(8), ip-address(8), ip-addrlabel(8), ip-l2tp(8), ip-link(8), ip-maddress(8), ip-monitor(8), ip-mroute(8), ip-neighbour(8), ip-netns(8), ip-ntable(8), ip-route(8), ip-rule(8), ip-tunnel(8), ip-xfrm(8) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Wed, 2012-08-08 at 19:08, Harald Jenny wrote: On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 12:22:50PM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote: (Does anybody want to try removing net-tools and see what breaks?) On my debian systems net-tools are removed, had to recompile openvpn with ip support and run openswan from experimental without any problems since 4 months. I removed it without recompiling anything from my notebook. -- Kind regards, Milan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808200824.ga16...@arvanta.net
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Wed, 8 Aug 2012, Andrew Shadura wrote: On Wed, 08 Aug 2012 19:44:25 +0200 Vincent Bernat ber...@debian.org wrote: arp can be replaced by ip neigh, ifconfig by ip addr or ip link, route by ip route, ipmaddr by ip maddr, mii-tool by ethtool, netstat by ss, nameif by ip link, iptunnel by ip tunnel. iproute and ethtool packages are kept in sync with kernels and allow the user to use the latest features. ...And completely lack full documentation on all of them, yeah? searching for info about ip on a webcrawler is not very pleasant I have learned =) -- /brother http://martin.bagge.nu Bruce Schneier's name appeared in EBCDIC in the output of /dev/random every time there was a full moon. Even after they changed the RNG algorithm. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/alpine.deb.2.00.1208082216590.14...@salyut.bsnet.se
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 10:08:24PM +0200, Milan P. Stanic wrote: On Wed, 2012-08-08 at 19:08, Harald Jenny wrote: On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 12:22:50PM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote: (Does anybody want to try removing net-tools and see what breaks?) On my debian systems net-tools are removed, had to recompile openvpn with ip support and run openswan from experimental without any problems since 4 months. I removed it without recompiling anything from my notebook. openvpn still uses the route command from net-tools and in openswan's KLIPS helper there was an occurence of the netstat command. -- Kind regards, Milan Kind regards Harald -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808200824.ga16...@arvanta.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808201815.ga23...@harald-has.a-little-linux-box.at
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 10:22:03AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: Lars Wirzenius l...@liw.fi writes: On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 09:25:19AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: Also, FHS development seems to be effectively dead. We're already carrying a fairly large collection of exceptions. One more wouldn't make a tremendous difference as long as there's no major user behavior change, and the symlinks would take care of that. There may be hope of an FHS revival: http://www.linuxfoundation.org/collaborate/workgroups/lsb/fhs I haven't followed if they're actually doing any work. I've been on the mailing list, and so far it's mostly been crickets. The person who was driving the effort has been busy with other LSB work. While that's true, there is now a framework for getting changes made to the FHS again - unlike before when the only three editors with commit access were all AWOL. The FHS and the guarantees it provides about what users can expect from their system is still important. If Debian thinks we need to diverge from the FHS on something as major as the existence of /sbin, that's a conversation we should be having in the FHS WG first before implementing it. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On 2012-08-08 22:09:27 +0800, Thomas Goirand wrote: What would be the point, for example, to have these accessible to the user: - depmod/insmod/etc. - swapon/swapoff - agetty - init - etc. One (perhaps minor) point would be to get basic documentation, e.g. depmod --help There is no need to be root to read the documentation. -- Vincent Lefèvre vinc...@vinc17.net - Web: http://www.vinc17.net/ 100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: http://www.vinc17.net/blog/ Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808210652.gd25...@xvii.vinc17.org
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Wed, 2012-08-08 at 22:18, Harald Jenny wrote: On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 10:08:24PM +0200, Milan P. Stanic wrote: On Wed, 2012-08-08 at 19:08, Harald Jenny wrote: On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 12:22:50PM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote: (Does anybody want to try removing net-tools and see what breaks?) On my debian systems net-tools are removed, had to recompile openvpn with ip support and run openswan from experimental without any problems since 4 months. I removed it without recompiling anything from my notebook. openvpn still uses the route command from net-tools and in openswan's I forgot to tell that I don't use openvpn. KLIPS helper there was an occurence of the netstat command. For IPsec I use racoon and ipsec-tools. For wireless I use wicd. So everything I need for networks on my notebook works without net-tools. -- Kind regards, Milan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808210846.ga18...@arvanta.net
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 05:48:35PM +0100, Roger Leigh wrote: On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 09:28:03AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: Yes, we could file bugs and go to the work of moving things and leaving symlinks behind to not break other things, but that's a lot of work. And it's ongoing work to keep things sorted into the right place. Whereas if we moved everything and left a symlink behind, that's way more work in the short run but then we would be done and no one would have to think about the distinction again. If we did want to do a blanket move of everything in /sbin to /bin (and for /usr/sbin to /usr/bin), we could do this in a single operation in e.g. base-files. It wouldn't require any path changes in individual packages, but we would need to fix any name clashes first, and also to bail out if any were found during the upgrade. It should be possible to do entirely atomically as well if we hardlink the binaries, and then replace the dir with a symlink. You can't replace a directory with a symlink atomically. So this is near-atomic, not atomic. More importantly, however, is the fact that dpkg won't know anything about this change, so will be unable to detect file conflicts between /usr/bin and /usr/sbin. And we know we definitely *do* have such file conflicts in the archive (see node-like file conflicts). Thus we could not guarantee the integrity of the user's system when making such a change. I don't see any gain from merging bin+sbin that justifies such pain. Adding sbin to the default PATH would be far simpler. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 01:53:24PM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote: On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 10:22:03AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: Lars Wirzenius l...@liw.fi writes: On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 09:25:19AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: Also, FHS development seems to be effectively dead. We're already carrying a fairly large collection of exceptions. One more wouldn't make a tremendous difference as long as there's no major user behavior change, and the symlinks would take care of that. There may be hope of an FHS revival: http://www.linuxfoundation.org/collaborate/workgroups/lsb/fhs I haven't followed if they're actually doing any work. I've been on the mailing list, and so far it's mostly been crickets. The person who was driving the effort has been busy with other LSB work. While that's true, there is now a framework for getting changes made to the FHS again - unlike before when the only three editors with commit access were all AWOL. The FHS and the guarantees it provides about what users can expect from their system is still important. If Debian thinks we need to diverge from the FHS on something as major as the existence of /sbin, that's a conversation we should be having in the FHS WG first before implementing it. As an aside, I've learned by way of said mailing list that Fedora took it upon themselves to deviate from the FHS by eliminating /usr/games, which is a terrible thing because it now means insecure game software, much of it sgid, is on root's path when it shouldn't be. :-P I think that's a great example of why distros shouldn't diverge from the FHS in isolation now that there is a functional forum for discussing changes. -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On 08/08/12 12:30, Thomas Goirand wrote: On 08/08/2012 06:21 PM, David Given wrote: ifconfig (before this discussion I'd never even *heard* of ip) This kind of remark make be say that probably, it'd be nice to have ifconfig display a warning as this one: ifconfig is deprecated, please use ip instead That might be helpful if and only if it gave the syntax of the equivalent ip command. Roger -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/057bf9-qv3@silverstone.rilynn.me.uk
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
Le Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 09:28:03AM -0700, Russ Allbery a écrit : Yes, we could file bugs and go to the work of moving things and leaving symlinks behind to not break other things, but that's a lot of work. And it's ongoing work to keep things sorted into the right place. Whereas if we moved everything and left a symlink behind, that's way more work in the short run but then we would be done and no one would have to think about the distinction again. Hello everybody, perhaps a DEP could be useful to track that proposition ? (same for the proposition to symlink /bin and /sbin to /usr/bin and /usr/sbin.) http://dep.debian.net/ Have a nice day, -- Charles Plessy Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808233918.gc23...@falafel.plessy.net
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On 2012-08-08 03:16:59 +0200 (+0200), Ulrich Dangel wrote:
[...]
To run a program as root with sudo the user must specify the
correct path, e.g. sudo /usr/sbin/visudo instead of just sudo
visudo or su -c visudo.
[...]
Are you certain? For me, 'ifconfig' as a normal user returns
command not found but 'sudo ifconfig' works just fine...
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Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On 08/08/12 03:27, The Fungi wrote: Are you certain? For me, 'ifconfig' as a normal user returns command not found but 'sudo ifconfig' works just fine... I was based on my experiments[1]. But I discovered that my /etc/sudoers didn't contain following config line: Defaults secure_path /usr/local/sbin:/usr/local/bin:/usr/sbin:/usr/bin:/sbin:/bin:/usr/ So ignore the sudo part as it should be no problem. The bash completion even changes PATH to contain the sbin directories for sudo but zsh seems to honor PATH and doesn't extend to check for programs. Ulrich [1] $ echo $PATH /usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/local/games:/usr/games $ sudo visudo sudo: visudo: command not found $ export PATH=/usr/local/bin:/usr/bin:/bin:/usr/local/games:/usr/games:/sbin:/usr/sbin $ sudo visudo visudo: /etc/sudoers.tmp unchanged -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/5021c580.70...@spamt.net
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 03:48:48AM +0200, Ulrich Dangel wrote: So ignore the sudo part as it should be no problem. The bash completion even changes PATH to contain the sbin directories for sudo but zsh seems to honor PATH and doesn't extend to check for programs. Perhaps you have changed your /etc/zsh/zshrc or you aren't enabling the modern completion system. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120808015425.ga27...@scru.org
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On 08/08/12 03:54, Clint Adams wrote: On Wed, Aug 08, 2012 at 03:48:48AM +0200, Ulrich Dangel wrote: So ignore the sudo part as it should be no problem. The bash completion even changes PATH to contain the sbin directories for sudo but zsh seems to honor PATH and doesn't extend to check for programs. Perhaps you have changed your /etc/zsh/zshrc or you aren't enabling the modern completion system. Ah yes ☹ I am using Grmls zshrc which doesn't contain the zstyle for changing the behavior. With the zstyle (in Debians default zshrc) zstyle ':completion:*:sudo:*' command-path /usr/local/sbin /usr/local/bin \ /usr/sbin /usr/bin /sbin /bin /usr/X11R6/bin the completion works with zsh as well. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/5021ca56.1010...@spamt.net
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On Aug 08, Ulrich Dangel u...@spamt.net wrote: Changing the default PATH for normal users to include /sbin, /usr/sbin as well as /usr/local/sbin would be a great thing for simplifying command line usage for normal users. Fedora did it a few months ago, so probably we should do it as well to minimize the pain. If /sbin, /usr/sbin and /usr/local/sbin are added at the end of the PATH there should be no problems for existing environments if there are programs with the same name in /sbin and /bin… I do not think that this is an actual problem, and if it were then it should be fixed: when sbin is in the path it has always been before other directories, so changing this only for some cases would be confusing. Just use the same path for all users. -- ciao, Marco signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
Ulrich Dangel u...@spamt.net writes: Currently the default PATH for Debian does not include /sbin, /usr/sbin, nor /usr/local/sbin. If an user wants to run a program in either /sbin/ or /usr/sbin the full path must be specified. I don't see any point in doing this as opposed to just moving everything from sbin into bin and making sbin a symlink to bin. If we're going to add them both to the PATH, that means there's no longer any effective difference, and we should make that explicit. Let's not create another halfway situation that makes no sense in its own right and exists only because we can't make up our mind between two mutually-exclusive alternatives. Either it makes sense to separate root commands from regular user commands or it doesn't. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87sjbyuo2h@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On 08/08/12 03:16, Ulrich Dangel wrote: Currently the default PATH for Debian does not include /sbin, /usr/sbin, nor /usr/local/sbin. If an user wants to run a program in either /sbin/ or /usr/sbin the full path must be specified. Some programs don't necessarily need root privileges like blkid, iwconfig, ifconfig, service etc. and can be partially useful for the normal user. If a program requires root privileges, sudo is nowadays a standard solution (the debian installer even automatically installs sudo undder specific circumstances). To run a program as root with sudo the user must specify the correct path, e.g. sudo /usr/sbin/visudo instead of just sudo visudo or su -c visudo. Changing the default PATH for normal users to include /sbin, /usr/sbin as well as /usr/local/sbin would be a great thing for simplifying command line usage for normal users. If /sbin, /usr/sbin and /usr/local/sbin are added at the end of the PATH there should be no problems for existing environments if there are programs with the same name in /sbin and /bin… I know that these changes are late in the release cycle so I suggest to make the changes for Jessie. I think this is a great idea :) You can't imagine how much I blame Debian each time I have to type the full path /sbin/ifconfig as a non-root user on virtual servers to just know the IP address the DHCP server assigned to the machine. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On 08/08/12 04:11, Marco d'Itri wrote: Changing the default PATH for normal users to include /sbin, /usr/sbin as well as /usr/local/sbin would be a great thing for simplifying command line usage for normal users. Fedora did it a few months ago, so probably we should do it as well to minimize the pain. As far as I know (based on https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=458176 / http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/SbinSanity ) Fedora changed it in 2008. It seems that Ubuntu also has the sbin directories in PATH per default (via /etc/environment) since at least 2006. Ulrich -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/5021d1df.40...@spamt.net
Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
On 08/08/12 04:15, Russ Allbery wrote:
Currently the default PATH for Debian does not include /sbin, /usr/sbin,
nor /usr/local/sbin. If an user wants to run a program in either /sbin/
or /usr/sbin the full path must be specified.
I don't see any point in doing this as opposed to just moving everything
from sbin into bin and making sbin a symlink to bin. If we're going to
add them both to the PATH, that means there's no longer any effective
difference, and we should make that explicit.
A similar solution was discussed some time ago by merging all the /bin and /sbin
directories together (based on the UsrMove from Fedora) but the discussion
wasn't
really productive iirc.
Changing only the PATH is also less intrusive compared to merging /{s,}bin and
/usr/{s,}bin. But if there is a consent for it, sure let's merge the
directories.
Ulrich
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Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
Ulrich Dangel u...@spamt.net writes:
A similar solution was discussed some time ago by merging all the /bin
and /sbin directories together (based on the UsrMove from Fedora) but
the discussion wasn't really productive iirc.
Wasn't that discussion about merging /bin and /usr/bin? Or did we also
have the discussion about /bin and /sbin?
This is exactly the sort of global change that Debian kind of sucks at,
but I don't like using that as an excuse to not do it. I'd rather find
ways to get better at it.
Changing only the PATH is also less intrusive compared to merging
/{s,}bin and /usr/{s,}bin.
Sure, certainly true. But, assuming that we have a consensus that the
distinction no longer matters and just causes extra work (something that
I'm inclined to agree with but that I don't think we can assume we've
decided on yet), I hate to see us doing the expedient thing because doing
the right thing is too hard.
--
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/
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Re: Change default PATH for Jessie / wheezy+1
Carlos Alberto Lopez Perez wrote: You can't imagine how much I blame Debian each time I have to type the full path /sbin/ifconfig as a non-root user on virtual servers to just know the IP address the DHCP server assigned to the machine. The 'ip' command is in /bin/ip and always available in PATH. It is the currently recommended swiss-army chainsaw network tool. Give it a try. $ ip addr show Or: $ ip addr show eth0 And of course you can add the sbins to your PATH in .profile so that you have what you want always. (I always add the sbin's to my PATH.) Bob signature.asc Description: Digital signature
