Re: Debian bugs #700000 and #1000000 contest
On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 05:45:55PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote: When writing up this document, it would be useful if you'd address as part of that document what you would do differently than when we took that approach in the past and/or why you believe things have changed such that this won't fail in the ways that it has in the past. That will be the first thing that people are likely to say in response, so it would be helpful if you addressed it up-front. This is a good suggestion and I will indeed do that. -- Jon Dowland -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101022070918.gb18...@deckard.alcopop.org
Re: Debian bugs #700000 and #1000000 contest
On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 11:38:18AM +0200, Christian PERRIER wrote: I definitely agree that this wasn't a high importance annoucement, but more something related to the project's life...and fun. This is indeed not even developers' oriented, so another announce channel would have been more appropriate. However, debian-announce being underused, this fun annoucement would have looked weird there. So, well, I did like I did two years ago and sent the annoucement there. Christian, you did well. The subject was properly choosen and for those not interested it would have taken just a second to delete the message. There should be some fun in Debian and announcing this fun in a reasonable ratio to technical stuff is OK. Thanks for all your efforts in community building (which are more than bug contests) Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101019060059.gb28...@an3as.eu
Re: Debian bugs #700000 and #1000000 contest
On Mon, 18 Oct 2010 17:45:55 -0700 Russ Allbery r...@debian.org wrote: Jon Dowland j...@debian.org writes: I intended to come up with a recommendation which would support my working practices[1] to the release team. [1] which, back of the envelope, top-of-my-head, would be something like: a minimum gap between freeze announcement and commencement, When writing up this document, it would be useful if you'd address as part of that document what you would do differently than when we took that approach in the past and/or why you believe things have changed such that this won't fail in the ways that it has in the past. That will be the first thing that people are likely to say in response, so it would be helpful if you addressed it up-front. At the very least, any recommendations should involve actually talking to the release team because Russ' point is absolutely correct - there were good reasons for the lack of a gap and these reasons persist. It would be helpful if, once a release process starts (read once oldstable is cleared out), maintainers were to help out by ensuring that any uploads are the last upload this package would need for a stable release. Last-minute and hasty uploads must be avoided - especially within a release pre-freeze or freeze period. -- Neil Williams = http://www.data-freedom.org/ http://www.linux.codehelp.co.uk/ http://e-mail.is-not-s.ms/ pgpTDmP62SF1y.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Debian bugs #700000 and #1000000 contest
Le dimanche 17 octobre 2010 à 21:25 +0200, Christian PERRIER a écrit : So, for the third time, a small contest has been set up. The principle is very simple: please place a bet (one per person) about the day bugs #70 and #100 will be reported. I find it disappointing to see this posted, and in bad taste. I’m sure I’m not alone. -- .''`. : :' : “You would need to ask a lawyer if you don't know `. `' that a handshake of course makes a valid contract.” `--- J???rg Schilling -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1287474001.10136.1.ca...@meh
Re: Debian bugs #700000 and #1000000 contest
Hi, On Dienstag, 19. Oktober 2010, Josselin Mouette wrote: Le dimanche 17 octobre 2010 à 21:25 +0200, Christian PERRIER a écrit : So, for the third time, a small contest has been set up. The principle is very simple: please place a bet (one per person) about the day bugs #70 and #100 will be reported. I find it disappointing to see this posted, and in bad taste. I’m sure I’m not alone. `--- J???rg Schilling On the internet, you'll always find the companions you want. cheers, Holger signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: Debian bugs #700000 and #1000000 contest
Quoting Christian PERRIER (bubu...@debian.org): Sorry if that annoyed you, that was definitely not the intent. I feel the duty to mention that Piotr and I had a brief exchange privately and that he made clear he had no specific anger towards me or my announcement. He rather wanted to express the frustration he already mentioned, about the communication around the release process. Even though I don't share his views, which I think Zack addressed in his answer and plea to calm things downI wanted to mention this as there is IMHO no real need to continue this thread, and also no grief left between Piort and me.. ;-) -- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian bugs #700000 and #1000000 contest
Le mardi 19 octobre 2010 à 11:28 +0200, Holger Levsen a écrit : On Dienstag, 19. Oktober 2010, Josselin Mouette wrote: I find it disappointing to see this posted, and in bad taste. I’m sure I’m not alone. `--- J???rg Schilling On the internet, you'll always find the companions you want. For the sarcasm-impaired: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2008/11/msg00476.html kthxbye, -- .''`. : :' : “You would need to ask a lawyer if you don't know `. `' that a handshake of course makes a valid contract.” `--- J???rg Schilling -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/1287502491.10136.72.ca...@meh
Re: Debian bugs #700000 and #1000000 contest
Josselin Mouette schrieb: Le dimanche 17 octobre 2010 à 21:25 +0200, Christian PERRIER a écrit : So, for the third time, a small contest has been set up. The principle is very simple: please place a bet (one per person) about the day bugs #70 and #100 will be reported. I find it disappointing to see this posted, and in bad taste. It would be much more interesting to learn _why_ you feel so (and not just that you do) - particularly as I'm sure I'm not the only one ;) who has trobule to understand such reasoning. -thh PS: Wouldn't -project be a more appropriate place for this less technical aspects? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/ldd.1010192039.3...@thorondor.akallabeth.de
Re: Debian bugs #700000 and #1000000 contest
This one time, at band camp, Thomas Hochstein said: Josselin Mouette schrieb: I find it disappointing to see this posted, and in bad taste. It would be much more interesting to learn _why_ you feel so (and not just that you do) - particularly as I'm sure I'm not the only one ;) who has trobule to understand such reasoning. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet) -- - | ,''`.Stephen Gran | | : :' :sg...@debian.org | | `. `'Debian user, admin, and developer | |`- http://www.debian.org | - signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian bugs #700000 and #1000000 contest
Quoting Piotr Ożarowski (pi...@debian.org): Subject: Debian bugs #70 and #100 contest To: debian-devel-annou...@lists.debian.org seriously? Isn't debian-priv...@l.d.o for all the off-topic mails? Who told this is off-topic? signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian bugs #700000 and #1000000 contest
[Christian PERRIER, 2010-10-18] Quoting Piotr Ożarowski (pi...@debian.org): Subject: Debian bugs #70 and #100 contest To: debian-devel-annou...@lists.debian.org seriously? Isn't debian-priv...@l.d.o for all the off-topic mails? Who told this is off-topic? I already only scan -private and -devel mailing lists once a week or so (due to spam), I was expecting important information on -devel-announce so I stopped doing what I was doing (see below), opened announce mailbox and was annoyed by the fact that 2nd class DDs like me (and their upstreams!) do not deserve information about freeze date in advance but they're feed with bug contest messages instead. I can't/don't want to work on Debian 24h a day. Yesterday, I found few hours in the evening to work on Debian so I worked simultaneously on few issues related¹ to Squeeze release or not². After replying to your mail to -devel I had to fix RC bug³ (I wish all spammers would fix one RC bug after sending off-topic mail to Debian mailing list) and thus didn't finish checking python-easygui and galleryremote so if I don't want to break 24h rule[4] again, I will have to speed up this evening as I also have to fix another RC bug due to sending yet another off-topic mail to -devel (feel free to take over[5], but please remember that NEW packages almost never[6] are ready after initial RFS mail, so if you will not find something serious, just don't try to help, unless you will work with sponsoree with further uploads as well). [¹] * jinja2 2.5.4-1 (uploaded to unstable, no unblock request yet) * cython3 (later I noticed my work is useless as Cython public module is used only by cython script which generates Python 2.X and Python 3.X compatible code, changes are in DPMT repo) * pype RFS (replied, one version uploaded later, another one on it's way) * pyopencl RFS (replied to wait for RMs for few more days) * pycompile RC bug [²] * python-easygui RFS (NEW package) * galleryremote RFS (NEW package, blocks new upstream version of another package) [³] python-defaults upload to experimental, I will backport it in 2.6.6-3squeeze1 today [4] http://people.debian.org/~piotr/sponsor [5] * svn://svn.debian.org/python-modules/packages/python-easygui/trunk * http://mentors.debian.net/debian/pool/main/g/galleryremote/galleryremote_0.4-1.dsc [6] happened like 2 times for me for now (and both sponsorees were close to get their DD account back then) -- Piotr Ożarowski Debian GNU/Linux Developer www.ozarowski.pl www.griffith.cc www.debian.org GPG Fingerprint: 1D2F A898 58DA AF62 1786 2DF7 AEF6 F1A2 A745 7645 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101018082931.gt3...@piotro.eu
Re: Debian bugs #700000 and #1000000 contest
On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 10:29:31AM +0200, Piotr Ożarowski wrote:
I already only scan -private and -devel mailing lists once a week or so
(due to spam), I was expecting important information on -devel-announce
so I stopped doing what I was doing (see below), opened announce
mailbox and was annoyed by the fact that 2nd class DDs like me (and
their upstreams!) do not deserve information about freeze date in
advance but they're feed with bug contest messages instead.
Piotr, it's very clear to me that you're still very much annoyed by the
freeze announcement that you and others found to be impromptu. I'm sorry
about that. I really am.
Although I can't speak for them, I think the release team is sorry too
about the inconveniences it has generated to you and other people.
Nevertheless they had to make a though decision, as far as I know, and
in such a decision there was no way to make *everybody* happy. Let's
acknowledge that they did take a decision, that they tried to diminish
inconveniences by starting with a soft freeze, that they acknowledged
that communication could have been better, and that they have also
stated that they want to improve communication about the release process
for Wheezy. So, you see, nobody considers that you or your upstreams do
not deserve information, there is just room for improvement and people
who are working to actually deliver that improvement.
All that considered, I don't think you should continue blaming the
release team publicly---in several different places, including
completely off-topic places like ask.debian.net---for the very same
reason. It's not helping anyone including, I believe, you. Can we please
try to move past this? If you, or anybody else, think I can help in any
other way to move past this once and for all, please please please let
me know. There can be grudges in communities, as a matter of fact there
will probably always be grudges, but either we learn to get past them,
or we will trade-off the time we have to do fun stuff with time spent
grumbling about *past* grudges.
Cheers.
PS Note that all the above has nothing to do with your work for
releasing Squeeze and, more generally, with your work within the
Debian Python community. I have always considered it outstanding and
the above is by no means meant to diminish its importance.
--
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Quando anche i santi ti voltano le spalle, | . |. I've fans everywhere
ti resta John Fante -- V. Caposella ...| ..: |.. -- C. Adams
signature.asc
Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian bugs #700000 and #1000000 contest
Quoting Piotr Ożarowski (pi...@debian.org): I already only scan -private and -devel mailing lists once a week or so (due to spam), I was expecting important information on -devel-announce so I stopped doing what I was doing (see below), opened announce mailbox and was annoyed by the fact that 2nd class DDs like me (and their upstreams!) do not deserve information about freeze date in advance but they're feed with bug contest messages instead. What I understand from your mail (apart from the concerns you express about release management, which I have no authority to address or even comment...Zack did that already anyway), is that you consider this announcement not important enough for -devel-announce. I definitely agree that this wasn't a high importance annoucement, but more something related to the project's life...and fun. This is indeed not even developers' oriented, so another announce channel would have been more appropriate. However, debian-announce being underused, this fun annoucement would have looked weird there. So, well, I did like I did two years ago and sent the annoucement there. Sorry if that annoyed you, that was definitely not the intent. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Debian bugs #700000 and #1000000 contest
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 18/10/10 10:15, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote: If you, or anybody else, think I can help in any other way to move past this once and for all, please please please let me know. I intended to come up with a recommendation which would support my working practices[1] to the release team. My intention was (still is!) to devise this recommendation and then simply ask them on -release, albeit post squeeze release. I agree that passive/aggressive grumblings about the mistake here and there are damaging rather than helpful, but I can understand Piotr's frustrations. Can I please take this opportunity to whip off a quick thank you to the release team for their hard work? I am continually impressed with their politeness and the level of scrutiny they are visibly applying to unblock requests: Thank you! Keep up the good work :) [1] which, back of the envelope, top-of-my-head, would be something like: a minimum gap between freeze announcement and commencement, and ideally commitment to release date for Debian N at release of Debian N-1, but that might be pushing things too far. Although I will eventually be far more articulate and convincing :) - -- Jon Dowland -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iEYEARECAAYFAky8w5kACgkQFotOcXAy8jjWowCgp3k8aS+Scy8C09uF5E9YSJ4z AiQAn1W7He64T8q6rkO42Z/EkV2JtEcJ =j7MX -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/4cbcc399.8060...@debian.org
Re: Debian bugs #700000 and #1000000 contest
Jon Dowland j...@debian.org writes: I intended to come up with a recommendation which would support my working practices[1] to the release team. [1] which, back of the envelope, top-of-my-head, would be something like: a minimum gap between freeze announcement and commencement, When writing up this document, it would be useful if you'd address as part of that document what you would do differently than when we took that approach in the past and/or why you believe things have changed such that this won't fail in the ways that it has in the past. That will be the first thing that people are likely to say in response, so it would be helpful if you addressed it up-front. and ideally commitment to release date for Debian N at release of Debian N-1, There's absolutely no way that Debian could commit to a release date given our current mechanisms and archive policy, and I have a hard time imagining an archive policy that would permit that. Committing to a *freeze* date might be possible, and indeed has been proposed in the past. -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87wrpfui0s@windlord.stanford.edu
Re: Debian bugs #700000 and #1000000 contest
Subject: Debian bugs #70 and #100 contest To: debian-devel-annou...@lists.debian.org seriously? Isn't debian-priv...@l.d.o for all the off-topic mails? -- Piotr Ożarowski Debian GNU/Linux Developer www.ozarowski.pl www.griffith.cc www.debian.org GPG Fingerprint: 1D2F A898 58DA AF62 1786 2DF7 AEF6 F1A2 A745 7645 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101017193113.gp3...@piotro.eu
Re: Debian bugs #700000 and #1000000 contest
Hi, Le dimanche 17 oct. 2010 à 21:31:13 (+0200), Piotr Ożarowski a écrit : seriously? Isn't debian-priv...@l.d.o for all the off-topic mails? Remember only Debian Developers have read access to debian-private… Cheers, Julien -- Julien Valroff jul...@kirya.net http://www.kirya.net GPG key: 1024D/9F71D449 17F4 93D8 746F F011 B845 9F91 210B F2AB 9F71 D449 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20101017193851.ga2...@kirya.net
Re: Debian bugs #700000 and #1000000 contest
It is a very funny thing ! On Mon, Oct 18, 2010 at 03:25, Christian PERRIER bubu...@debian.org wrote: As the bug #60 mark was turned on October 12th 2010, Debian developers and contributors need a new challenge. So, for the third time, a small contest has been set up. The principle is very simple: please place a bet (one per person) about the day bugs #70 and #100 will be reported. The winner(s) will be the person(s) placing her|his|their bet as close as possible to the real moment bug #70 and #100 are reported. There is nothing to win but the pride of being the person who predicted our bug report rate for the next months|years, just what René Mayorga won by winning the bug #50 prediction game (http://people.debian.org/~bubulle/50.html)and the very same René Mayorga winning the bug #60 prediction ( http://wiki.debian.org/60thBugContest). The bet page is a wiki page: http://wiki.debian.org/70thBugContest It will be closed on November 30th 2010. Bets will be kept statically until bug #70 is reported. Please note that bets for bug #100 placed back in 2008 are kept on this page under Bets for bug #100, placed after bug #50, in 2008. Do not modify that section but record your bet in Bets for bug #100, placed after bug #60, in 2010. Enjoy...ad this time, let's change and have someone else than René as winner..:-) -- -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) iQIcBAEBCAAGBQJMu02iAAoJEIcvcCxNbiWohd4QAMBIsCQAWvVOfK0WlNT1V7+6 2AQZPT5VuqBWwXTa8b3zQVkB434uO+Tg22ZbryqfOSLTnrgsC6fMSUz1grkgrGe2 nMB6bS8z6zzNlof2mtphWjpUahPRtNJqfVxZPn3tZplB4Ozv7bbpCp3vxrT/VWeO AIVQ2LFXtjoy90tW0VoHg5gHcAKZVR+UoriueWDs8BdR0eb7+laJnEEuP3FYXYmZ Un+4wRPso2VbbSmY27WnckxQrqc6nhMBUwnlvo+XueAF69xfTs9qFXeeyAbpRr/E hjUdclATLvE7FYvKdi4EU8+uFJn3VWS1Cbne5XCcbqSTgsUMshDBofv7088Oj+Vw pJ5UpCAVtrH/ipDPMJmOCpa43yB56NpvzLpfSVYeJ6gQUndoZ/1BIwHwJKMYZMyg WkuCBZmz1qZdd/B5nrMJVVKYJTteZrV8naGIB/Hdf77814u1fkV6tL7Fag7t+yrn w8rUCWdhNHG7hyI7ZLw3OvqqYBHFsGJQtTVAIYqwTdjUuhlDK2Dhq40xhCe6YKsG Z+y1ytXbhpZOr3ddBleFvhx6Ni+0+mdGIHCvtCBV6NXXzEQ25CFFXEzviQO0vmTD k8FQ9HW23ngWe7FctlMLrGaxk2RuQqt/fBz+/P0BKp4pI0b5o6/Ye+RqS66akhpp 9s3TcSlu+rsKfCGC+Nr4 =d0au -END PGP SIGNATURE-
