Re: Flamewars & Why pedantic spelling is good.
On Sat, Dec 22, 2001 at 08:15:40PM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote: > any search on google or other search engines will reveal many thousands > of uses of the word 'zonefile'. like i said, it's in common usage in > the field and has been for years. but that couldn't possibly be > evidence, could it? after all, that would mean i was right and that > would be embarrassing to admit to, wouldn't it? A google search for "authentification" reveals 128,000 matches. That doesn't make it a proper (English) word. -- - mdz
Re: Flamewars & Why pedantic spelling is good.
On Fri, Dec 21, 2001 at 03:37:15PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell, BSG wrote: > Craig Sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > btw, as someone has mentioned privately, 'howto' is no more a word than > > 'zonefile' is. perhaps there should be auto spelling-flame bug reports > > on every package that uses 'howto' rather than 'how to' in the > > description. > > Except that "howto" has become a noun rather like "manpage". This is not > true in the case of "zonefile". Besides being in common usage, 'howto' is present in several package names, which caused it to be automatically excluded from my check. Even if this weren't the case, 'howto' is used in the title of a large number of documents, packaged and unpackaged, which means that it is correct in a majority of instances (since it is used in that context). I may disagree with the coinage of a new word for this purpose, but I don't think that I can rightly disagree with all of the authors who have borrowed it and used it to title their own documents, and even if I did, I couldn't win that battle. The Linux Documentation Project alone has over 200 documents named this way. -- - mdz
Re: Flamewars & Why pedantic spelling is good.
(Please excuse my English, as it's not my native tongue). Craig Sanders dijo: > small minded people think that dictionaries prescribe language. > anyone who has studied even basic linguistics knows that they do not, > linguistics is a *DESCRIPTIVE* discipline...it does not presume to > prescribe what a language *should* be, it describes what a language > *is*. living languages evolve over time - new words are invented, old > ones fall out of usage or gain new meanings or lose old meanings. I happen to disagree. Us linguists struggle between descriptive and normative linguistics, and finding balance is not that easy. And, believe me, there should be some balance. There's also a big difference on how the same speaker uses language depending on context. IMNSHO, debian/control is the right context for extra care. To non-English speakers, it is specially hard to spot "common use" and avoid confussion, so being extra careful is always appreciated. Maybe this case is not a great example for this, but anyway... I guess this thread is just plain useless now that you O: all the "offending" packages. Kind regards, Amaya - quite struggling right now ;-) -- .''`. "No tengo el coño pa ruidos" -- David Amor, dear friend : :' : `. `' Proudly running Debian GNU/Linux Sid (Kernel 2.4.9) `-www.amayita.com www.malapecora.com www.chicasduras.com
Re: Flamewars & Why pedantic spelling is good.
On Sat, Dec 22, 2001 at 08:15:40PM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote: > any search on google or other search engines will reveal many thousands > of uses of the word 'zonefile'. like i said, it's in common usage in > the field and has been for years. but that couldn't possibly be > evidence, could it? after all, that would mean i was right and that > would be embarrassing to admit to, wouldn't it? Google says on zonefile: about 2460 hits. Wading through the first 100 hits shows a good amount of mailing list archives and sites with a top level domain that indicates a country with a language different from English as the native language (jp, nl, de, ...). Google says on "zone file": about 28,000 hits. The first 100 hits contain almost no references to mailing list archives and few sites with a top level domain as above. In some languages, proper nouns are often contracted to build up a new noun. German is famous for that (for example "Brustwarze" is the contraction of breast and wart, its meaning is nipple). A german is more likely to write zonefile than somebody whose mother tongue does not have this feature. In mailing lists, spelling is less important than in proper, maintained documentation. Getting the message across is more important then, and zonefile fits this purpose as good as zone file. People are lazy, too, and often don't pay much attention to spelling in emails. I am confident that a real analysis of the search data on google would point out a strong difference in how zone file and zonefile are used. But the world is not black and white. zone file and zonefile both exist (so do depricate [580 hits] and the lamented authoratative [4730 hits!][1]). The above indicates that zone file is the dominant spelling, esp in technical documentation. Debian can decide to apply this spelling in all content it produces.[2] Why you try to argue it on the level of correctness rather than policy I don't understand. Maybe because you know that the majority is happy with using zone file everywhere. Thanks, Marcus [1] Of course the correct spelling has 591.000 hits. [2] So could Debian decide to apply "zonefile" or use both variants. -- `Rhubarb is no Egyptian god.' Debian http://www.debian.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] Marcus Brinkmann GNUhttp://www.gnu.org[EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.marcus-brinkmann.de
Re: Flamewars & Why pedantic spelling is good.
On Sat, Dec 22, 2001 at 02:37:47PM -0600, Adam Heath wrote: > I never said that my spelling of that was correct. And seen Branden's > response(mail(like irc) is conversational, similiar to spoken speech, and > therefor has no need for spelling rules to be applied to it). I wouldn't go that far. It's just that correctness in detail, while not insignificant in conversational contexts, is far less important than it is in formal documentation. -- G. Branden Robinson|Men use thought only to justify Debian GNU/Linux |their wrong doings, and speech only [EMAIL PROTECTED] |to conceal their thoughts. http://people.debian.org/~branden/ |-- Voltaire pgpyhz4BP1zlC.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Flamewars & Why pedantic spelling is good.
On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, Craig Sanders wrote: > > [ drivel deleted ] > > in a word, No. So, you refuse to fix a bug. You refuse to provide reasons why. > btw, learn to spell "authoritative". I never said that my spelling of that was correct. And seen Branden's response(mail(like irc) is conversational, similiar to spoken speech, and therefor has no need for spelling rules to be applied to it). > OTOH, it's kind of amusing to read someone who can't spell attempt to > harangue me over spelling. Again, this has no bearing on the problem at hand. All I am asking is for externally verifiable facts. I have seen none from you.
Re: Flamewars & Why pedantic spelling is good.
On Sat, 22 Dec 2001 14:49, Hamish Moffatt wrote: > On Sat, Dec 22, 2001 at 07:37:44AM -0500, Branden Robinson wrote: > > It's kind of amusing to observe someone who can't perceive the practical > > differences between package descriptions and conversational mail > > messages. > > However, conversational mail messages can demonstrate actual > language usage; eg given enough examples of "zonefile" I > don't see why it shouldn't be used in a package description. I agree in principle. Although that does raise an interesting issue, is "pr0n" a word? It's used much more often than "zonefile" and "zone file" combined... -- http://www.coker.com.au/bonnie++/ Bonnie++ hard drive benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/postal/ Postal SMTP/POP benchmark http://www.coker.com.au/projects.html Projects I am working on http://www.coker.com.au/~russell/ My home page
Re: Flamewars & Why pedantic spelling is good.
Craig Sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > [ drivel deleted ] > [Real drivel removed] > OTOH, it's kind of amusing to read someone who can't spell attempt to > harangue me over spelling. It's NOT amusing to read this thread any more. Get real! Stop being such an a...e. Start doing som real work, like correct the spellings, get a life, fix other bugs, or something... /Jackson
Re: Flamewars & Why pedantic spelling is good.
On Sat, Dec 22, 2001 at 07:37:44AM -0500, Branden Robinson wrote: > It's kind of amusing to observe someone who can't perceive the practical > differences between package descriptions and conversational mail > messages. However, conversational mail messages can demonstrate actual language usage; eg given enough examples of "zonefile" I don't see why it shouldn't be used in a package description. Having said that I would change it (to zone file) if it were my package. Hamish -- Hamish Moffatt VK3SB <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Re: Flamewars & Why pedantic spelling is good.
On Sat, Dec 22, 2001 at 08:52:41PM +1100, Craig Sanders wrote: > OTOH, it's kind of amusing to read someone who can't spell attempt to > harangue me over spelling. It's kind of amusing to observe someone who can't perceive the practical differences between package descriptions and conversational mail messages. -- G. Branden Robinson| Debian GNU/Linux | kernel panic -- causal failure [EMAIL PROTECTED] | universe will now reboot http://people.debian.org/~branden/ | pgp1UEdVT0fWp.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Flamewars & Why pedantic spelling is good.
> [ drivel deleted ] in a word, No. btw, learn to spell "authoritative". OTOH, it's kind of amusing to read someone who can't spell attempt to harangue me over spelling. craig -- craig sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Fabricati Diem, PVNC. -- motto of the Ankh-Morpork City Watch
Re: Flamewars & Why pedantic spelling is good.
On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, Craig Sanders wrote: > On Sat, Dec 22, 2001 at 02:55:13AM -0600, Adam Heath wrote: > > On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, Craig Sanders wrote: > > > yawn. you're wrong. again. > > > > I have seen no quotes from you, of other, *outside* sources, that show > > 'zonefile' in widespread use. I *have* seen posts saying that 'zone > > file' is, however. > > i don't feel under any obligation to act as a dictionary for lazy or > stupid people, however earlier in this thread i already gave two > examples of other DNS-related packages within debian that use the word > 'zonefile'. in the description, no less. Pointing out other package's descriptions does not prove your point. No package description can be used as the authoratative location for the spelling of any word or phrase. If you point out one description that is the same as yours, then there will also be others that are different. So none can be used. Find an external location. > i guess you must have missed that because i failed to highlight the > significance with an enormous flashing neon sign for the congenitally > stupid. well here it is, just for you: Logic dictates that you can't use what is under study to prove the study itself. > any search on google or other search engines will reveal many thousands > of uses of the word 'zonefile'. like i said, it's in common usage in > the field and has been for years. but that couldn't possibly be > evidence, could it? after all, that would mean i was right and that > would be embarrassing to admit to, wouldn't it? google is not authoratative. And, continuing my thread above, google will have just as many spellings of 'zone file' as it does of 'zonefile'. Find something authoratative.
Re: Flamewars & Why pedantic spelling is good.
On Sat, Dec 22, 2001 at 02:55:13AM -0600, Adam Heath wrote: > On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, Craig Sanders wrote: > > yawn. you're wrong. again. > > I have seen no quotes from you, of other, *outside* sources, that show > 'zonefile' in widespread use. I *have* seen posts saying that 'zone > file' is, however. i don't feel under any obligation to act as a dictionary for lazy or stupid people, however earlier in this thread i already gave two examples of other DNS-related packages within debian that use the word 'zonefile'. in the description, no less. i guess you must have missed that because i failed to highlight the significance with an enormous flashing neon sign for the congenitally stupid. well here it is, just for you: Package: autodns-dhcp autodns-dhcp uses bind 8's dynamic update features to update a zonefile Package: zone-file-check Filename: pool/main/z/zone-file-check/zone-file-check_1.01-3_all.deb Description: Syntax-checker for BIND zonefiles This script is used for syntax-checking your zone-files after a of zonefiles, but also if you just want to check a single file. any search on google or other search engines will reveal many thousands of uses of the word 'zonefile'. like i said, it's in common usage in the field and has been for years. but that couldn't possibly be evidence, could it? after all, that would mean i was right and that would be embarrassing to admit to, wouldn't it? > [blah blah blah] > All procedures were followed. To the letter. So, that obviously means that > the bugs are incorrect. Not. there's more to a bug report than following procedure to the letter. relevance and correctness are more important attributes. the bug reports i complained about were incorrect because neither "zonefile" nor "usenet" are in any way spelling errors. and frankly, i don't give a damn whether you or anyone else agrees or disagrees. it's not in the least bit important. now please shut up and stop wasting everyone's time with this tedious thread. craig -- craig sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Fabricati Diem, PVNC. -- motto of the Ankh-Morpork City Watch
Re: Flamewars & Why pedantic spelling is good.
On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, Craig Sanders wrote: > yawn. you're wrong. again. I have seen no quotes from you, of other, *outside* sources, that show 'zonefile' in widespread use. I *have* seen posts saying that 'zone file' is, however. > i'm just pissed off by trivial bug reports about bugs that aren't bugs. > only a few years ago, this kind of thing was frowned on in debian and > referred to as Bug System Terrorism. these days it's acceptable. Bugs are bugs. And the misspellings are still misspellings. Unannounced mass-filings are what are you talking about. And yes, it was frowned upon. That's why now mass-filed bug reports need to be discussed *first* on debian-devel. And this one was. All procedures were followed. To the letter. So, that obviously means that the bugs are incorrect. Not. > has there been a change to policy that i don't know about? are we all > now subject to MZ's idiosyncratic spelling? This was discussed. For quite a while. Several had perused the list of spellings. Because you didn't particpate at the time, does that invalidate the entire exchange?
Re: Flamewars & Why pedantic spelling is good.
On Sat, 22 Dec 2001, Craig Sanders wrote: > a discussion on debian-devel is not policy. and even if it was > established as policy, i would as a matter of principal refuse to accept > anyone's idiosyncratic spelling rules. No, of course not. Policy is policy. But policy does not come first. Discussion and implementation do. To say a thing is not in policy, and then to say that that is a reason not to consider it, would lead to nothing ever being in policy. And, if something was explicitly spelt out in policy, and you flatly refused to implement it, then it would be taken to the technical community. However, I feel that you would probably just ignore their ruling, if it were against you. However, note that at any time, your package could be NMU'd. > as has been pointed out to you many times, it was not I that posted that > message to debian-devel. are you too stupid to understand plain english > or something? i sent a private flame, MZ decided to forward a > selectively edited part of it to debian-devel. It was most definately NOT a private flame. Do you not realize that our bug system is completly public? And that *ALL* mails sent to it are sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Dare we go to any of these bugs filed against you, and open them up for all the public to see? Of course not. Anyone can. We don't have to do it at all.
