Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?
2006/10/17, Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 01:02:45PM +, Jason Spiro wrote:
I remember back in 2000 providing a Debian package called 'ayuda' ('help', in
Spanish) developed by members of my local IEEE Student Branch. This package
included just a simple shell script ('ayuda') and a number of text files.
When the script was called it would show up a dialog(1) menu a user could
navigate and use to access the manuals included. Manuals were ordered in
'user', 'admin' and 'programming' topics. The 'user' topic would tell him how
to use shell commands, read e-mail, use a text editor (Joe, Vi or Emacs), and
configure his environment.
I found out today: There is a similar utility for Slackware called
slackhelp at http://freshmeat.net/redir/slackhelp/57881/url_homepage/slackhelp.
It is ncurses-based and it is in Portugese only. If you want to try
it, untar the Slackware .tgz package file to /tmp then look in
/tmp/usr/bin and /tmp/usr/doc.
From the Freshmeat description:
Slackhelp is software made in dialog to help users with problems on
diverse subjects in the universe of the Slackware system, supplying an
interactive and objective menu as a form of access to the tutorial
ones. All the tutorials contained have been taken from the proper
Slacklife.com.br page, and the tutorials considered of greater
importance have been selected and classified. These tutorials range
from initial commands for laypeople in Linux to texts for more
advanced users, including assembly of servers, all written in simple
language and easy to use.
--
Jason Spiro: computer consulting with a smile.
I also provide training and spyware removal services for homes and businesses.
Call or email for a FREE 5-minute consultation. Satisfaction guaranteed.
416-781-5938 / Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] / MSN: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?
[Sander Marechal] True, but I meant that an app can kill X, requiring it to be restarted. Newbies get very confused at that point. Look, if you typed startx once, you can type it again. If you didn't, it means you're using a display manager like xdm, and xdm will restart X when it dies. If X just _freezes_ rather than dies, you don't get a shell prompt anyway. What you get is the opportunity to hit Ctrl-Alt-Backspace, so that X will die, and then you're back to the previous cases. I see no case where it is useful to alias startx to start-desktop. Unless X dies and then xdm _also_ dies. Does this ever happen? signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?
On Friday 20 October 2006 08:06, Peter Samuelson wrote: [Sander Marechal] True, but I meant that an app can kill X, requiring it to be restarted. Newbies get very confused at that point. Look, if you typed startx once, you can type it again. If you didn't, it means you're using a display manager like xdm, and xdm will restart X when it dies. If X just _freezes_ rather than dies, you don't get a shell prompt anyway. What you get is the opportunity to hit Ctrl-Alt-Backspace, so that X will die, and then you're back to the previous cases. I see no case where it is useful to alias startx to start-desktop. I agree. Unless X dies and then xdm _also_ dies. Does this ever happen? Even if it does, that should be recoverable by, at worst, power cycling the machine. The real problem is when someone who has never used the command line before, possibly never even seen the command line, is stranded in a vt because X didn't start during boot, started and immediately crashed, or crashes every time they login. They don't know how to do anything from the command-line. They don't even know how to read a man page/edit a file. They're the users who need basic cli help. A motd message saying type `help-me' for help, and a 3-4 page doc explaining some useful basic commands (man, less, nano, cd, cp, rm, startx etc) and how to reconfigure X might be enough to prevent some of them having to re-install. Just my 2 cents Andrew -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?
On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 11:48:33PM -0400, Jason Spiro wrote:
I remember back in 2000 providing a Debian package called 'ayuda' ('help',
in
Spanish) developed by members of my local IEEE Student Branch. This
package
included just a simple shell script ('ayuda') and a number of text files.
When the script was called it would show up a dialog(1) menu a user could
navigate and use to access the manuals included. ...
I guess it would be nice to have something similar.
Interesting idea. But, since a) most people have web access nowadays
and b) people with no web access in a new Linux install can reboot
into Windows if they need web access, therefore I personally wouldn't
want to maintain such a package. Of course, you could get such a
script into Debian yourself (maybe in package debian-goodies or
elsewhere) if you wanted.
If you do a Debian install and, for some reason, don't get X configured you
don't want to tell people reboot into Windows and look for help. I, for
example, don't have a Windows partition available. As for the script, I
already provided it in Debian (5 years ago) but it was
a) Spanish-specific
b) not supported by a community
All that I'm saying is that it would be great to start a Debian community
project that was not language-specific and supported and get *that* into
Debian.
Since there is no package providing that tool I would say 'general'.
However,
filing bugs vs. general doesn't mean they will get fixed by themselves. I
think that it would be much better if somebody sat down and wrote a Debian
help system that provided some Debian-specific things and integrated
properly with both gnome-help and khelpcenter.
Is more Debian-specific help really needed for KDE/Gnome users? IIRC
Synaptic comes with Gnome help files. Also, there are already lots of
HTML-format manuals for Debian.
What I'm saying is that users using GNOME's help system or KDE's help system
cannot find a single bit of advice specific to Debian since *our* help system
(dwww/dhelp/doc-central) does not mesh in with theirs. So if a user (in
GNOME) goes to the task bar and selects 'Desktop-Help' he can, at most,
access the local manpages but there is no 'Debian' section there.
Try running 'yelp', look at the topics and try searching for 'Debian'. You'll
see what I mean. This is not GNOME-specific, BTW, IIRC the same happens with
KDE help center. I'm just saying that a Debian-specific help should be added
to both systems (and should provide the same contents).
Regards
Javier
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Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?
Alexey Feldgendler wrote: In a desktop environment, the user needs to do a special action to run the shell (such as starting the Gnome Terminal). It's somewhat unlikely that the user ends up in the scary black screen by accident, and even then he can easily find the familiar close button in the title bar of the window. My point is that today's user only gets a shell when he wants a shell, and users who don't know how to use the shell won't want it. If something happens to X then a user can end up in the terminal. Even a faulty application can trash X. Maybe all what is needed is a small script and a warning. Suppose we write a script called desktop or start-desktop that can start X, Gnome, KDE or whatever is installed on the system - with safe values for e.g. the X config. Sort of like Windows' rescue mode. Then have a message appear when the terminal starts (not the virtual terminals that you can start from your desktop, but the terminal you get when X is dead) that reads something like: If your desktop accidentally died, type start-desktop and hit the return key or type reboot to restart your computer. If it can be made so that this message only appears when X is installed but not running on the system, then even better. -- Sander Marechal http://www.gnome-hearts.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?
On Wed, Oct 18, 2006 at 08:36:06AM +0200, Sander Marechal wrote: If something happens to X then a user can end up in the terminal. Even a faulty application can trash X. I don't believe that an application can trash X so badly that it won't start anymore. Misconfiguring X can certainly cause it not to start. But an application? That doesn't sound right. Now, I've had applications lock up X before. I usually ssh in from another machine and kill the rogue process or just restart X remotely. I'm not sure a newbie would have the wherwithal to do that, so he would probably just power cycle the machine (which is what I used to do before I knew any better). If apps are trashing X so bad that it won't restart, even after a power cycle, we have more serious issues. Maybe all what is needed is a small script and a warning. Suppose we write a script called desktop or start-desktop that can start X, Gnome, KDE or whatever is installed on the system - with safe values for e.g. the X config. Sort of like Windows' rescue mode. Umm, you mean like startx? Windows needs a rescue mode because they hosed their nice architecture and fused the GUI into the kernel. I'd be more interested in something that starts automatically when it detects that X is hosed. No need to tell the user to do it, just do it. Then have a message appear when the terminal starts (not the virtual terminals that you can start from your desktop, but the terminal you get when X is dead) that reads something like: If your desktop accidentally died, type start-desktop and hit the return key or type reboot to restart your computer. If it can be made so that this message only appears when X is installed but not running on the system, then even better. Again, not necessary. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sanchez http://people.connexer.com/~roberto http://www.connexer.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?
On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 09:01:16PM -0500, Ron Johnson wrote: We who used MS-DOS in 1985 were not appreciably smarter than people are now, yet we figured out DIR COPY DEL CD. A HELP command and a set of DOS-friendly aliases (and/or scripts) would/should be adequate. Yes, but much of today's generation created a conception of using computers based on the movie Hackers (and no, I am not kidding). The concept of using a command line to gasp type in commands is intensely frightening to people. Of course, I personally find it humorous since people are condescending about Linux not being ready for the desktop or the enterprise and then don't bat an eyelash when the instructions to something start: click Start-Run and type regedit. I agree that a help command and a set of DOS-friendly aliases *should* be enough, but since MS neutered the command.com interface a long time ago to the point where it ceased to be useful, I don't see how having such things would be helpful to any but a diminishingly small minority of users. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sanchez http://people.connexer.com/~roberto http://www.connexer.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?
+++ Roberto C. Sanchez [17/10/06 20:27 -0400]: IIRC, the majority of the I ended up at a text prompt, what do I do now? questions we see on d-u are not X configuration problems. They are newbies who pick all the defaults and up without X on their systems entirely. Yes. And this type of problem doesn't stop with X, its also, how do I get my sound card working. Both of which would be solved using tasksel. However, after a user ignores tasksel the first time, they never know how to get back there. It seems like tasksel is both under utilized and under advertised. We need to figure out how to get more people to know about it, and we need more tasks. Why don't we have a lamp-server task? or a xfce-desktop task? I think the idea of adding a helpme script which is advertised somewhere like motd or /etc/issue or root's .bashrc for interactive shells is one that should be explored. I'd be happy to help work on this. stew signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?
On Wed, Oct 18, 2006 at 03:57:26AM -0400, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: I agree that a help command and a set of DOS-friendly aliases *should* be enough, but since MS neutered the command.com interface a long time ago to the point where it ceased to be useful, I don't see how having such things would be helpful to any but a diminishingly small minority of users. You are confusing interface and content. Let me explain how 'ayuda' worked again, maybe that can help see why Jason's idea. 'Ayuda' had two things: - a shell script using dialog(1) to display a set of menu options - newbie-oriented documentation (some of it Debian-specific) in /usr/share/ The shell-script read the documentation and provided the interface when 'ayuda' was written in the CLI. Now, considering the *need* to have newbie-oriented Debian-specific documentation for users (regardless of their environment) how about a package that provides: [1] newbie-oriented documentation (most of it Debian-specific) in /usr/share (Of course, i18n/l10nized) [2] an integration layer (an index file pointing to the HTML files?) with GNOME's yelp and KDE's 'khelpcenter' so that the information is show along the main Help topics and can be browsed when people go to their Desktop and select 'Help' [3] a stand-alone 'helpme' program that, when executed, would detect if the user was running in a console (no $DISPLAY) or not and provide an interface to the topics in the provided documentation. The 'Newbiedoc' package does not cut it, it just does [1] and it is not even Debian-specific. The 'doc-debian' (the Debian FAQ), 'debian-reference' or 'quick-reference' packages do not cut it either, they do most of the things needed for [1] but they only integrate with doc-central/dwww/dhelp which most (newbie) users will not even be aware they exist. There is no (easy?) way to access that documentation (if installed locally) from the Desktop (i.e. no [2]). For Bonus points, the user (if in an Internet-connected system) using [3] should be able to send questions not covered in the documentation through the same UI that could be collected somewhere and used by the maintainer(s) to decide which unwritten topics should be taken care of since they are most demanded by users. If someone wrote the package providing [1], [2] and [3] and it was made part of a standard installation we could ask Santiago (base-files' maintainer) to change /etc/motd and point to it. How does that sound? Anyone up to the challenge? Regards Javier signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?
Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: On Wed, Oct 18, 2006 at 08:36:06AM +0200, Sander Marechal wrote: If something happens to X then a user can end up in the terminal. Even a faulty application can trash X. I don't believe that an application can trash X so badly that it won't start anymore. True, but I meant that an app can kill X, requiring it to be restarted. Newbies get very confused at that point. Hence my suggestion of a friendly message on how to restart the desktop or how to reboot the PC from the command line. -- Sander Marechal http://www.gnome-hearts.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?
On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 01:02:45PM +, Jason Spiro wrote: Hi all, I believe that since command-line Linux is hard to learn, Debian should offer handholding. (This would benefit both Debian users who are new to the command line and How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help? Hmm, I don't think it's hard to learn, it's just hard to switch when you say a normal user to switch his OS now. For example, when a person types newbie commands like help or kde (which is bound to something already) or the DOS commands del or ren (which are not), we should point them to more help. (In case anyone here has ever watched a real clueless newbie struggle: What are other commands that 100% clueless newbies often type?) This is a good idea, we put little shell scripts somewhere and add it to the PATH variable for all members of the group newbies, something like that at least. Then we could also tell them which manpages to read and point them to some good websites or wikis. What would be a good help text to offer when a user types a command that indicates he/she is a newbie? Also, what package should I file a wishlist against to request that such help be added? We could start together a project which does this shell scripts, I think it's not really a lot of work. Don't file a bug, first we can do a linuxnewbie program and someone (maybe myself) will build a debian package one day. For me there's only one point: We have to make sure that advanced users DO NOT get this bothering messages. Regards -- .''`. Mario Iseli [EMAIL PROTECTED] : :' :proud user of Debian unstable `. `'` `- Debian - when you have better things to do than fixing a system -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?
On 2006-10-17, Mario Iseli [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We could start together a project which does this shell scripts, I think it's not really a lot of work. Don't file a bug, first we can do a linuxnewbie program and someone (maybe myself) will build a debian package one day. Has anyone ever done anything similar before? What does policy say about the idea of modifying users' PATH statements? I vaguely remember reading an ITP or something for colorwrapper, a program which colorizes the output of ps, date, dmesg, etc. which I think requires changing the user's path. But I don't remember what ended up happening. What should the help message we display say? For me there's only one point: We have to make sure that advanced users DO NOT get this bothering messages. How? :-) And will it matter, if it only affects commands like 'kde', 'gnome', 'move', 'ren', and 'delete' which currently just say bash: command not found? --Jason -- The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I will walk carefully. -- Russian Proverb -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?
Hi, let me respond to the subject. I don't know about the rest of the mail, sorry. Anyway, the usual way to detect a newbie and give help to them seems to be to assume everyone a newbie and give little hints, startup tips, ... till they learn enough to turn them off. For examples see gimp or mc. MfG Goswin PS: One of the hints better be how to turn the hints off. :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?
On 2006-10-17, Goswin von Brederlow [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] Anyway, the usual way to detect a newbie and give help to them seems to be to assume everyone a newbie and give little hints, startup tips, ... till they learn enough to turn them off. For examples see gimp or mc. PS: One of the hints better be how to turn the hints off. :) Someone suggested to me off-list that perhaps all we need is to provide a pointer to more newbie help in /etc/issue. Perhaps that would be the easiest to implement, and the easiest for users to disable :-), no? The disadvantage would be that users who have X Window plus KDM already set up, or who SSH into a friend's machine, who need help with linux commands in an xterm wouldn't see the message, but I assume that is a rare case so just editing /etc/issue and /etc/issue.net is fine. Agree? If the issue file were changed, what could go in it? I suggest: * one link to a special webpage which points total newbies to newbie documentation and also gives newbie-level instructions on how to get technical support * also, instructions how to view one offline-viewable Linux *tutorial* which is already installed - preferably a good one, but even the bad old intro(1) manpage if there is no good one. Also, perhaps it'd be possible for the bash help command to display those same two things in addition to the terse reference it already displays. What do you think? -- The church is near but the road is icy; the bar is far away but I will walk carefully. -- Russian Proverb -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 10/17/06 08:02, Jason Spiro wrote: Hi all, I believe that since command-line Linux is hard to learn, Debian should offer handholding. (This would benefit both Debian users who are new to the command line and How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help? [snip] What would be a good help text to offer when a user types a command that indicates he/she is a newbie? Also, what package should I file a wishlist against to request that such help be added? $ wajig search newbie | sort bookmarks - Debian bookmark collection fdclone - A console-base lightweight file manager linuxfacile - An Italian manual for newbies newbiedoc - Documentation by and for newbies selflinux - A collection of German documents about Linux uim - Simple and flexible input method collection and library - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Is common sense really valid? For example, it is common sense to white-power racists that whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins are mud people. However, that common sense is obviously wrong. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFNVABS9HxQb37XmcRAqeGAKClHXPBKS7IPWC5p/KQ2lPR8aOwwgCgpwBq H3jG6Q1NiKdZvrjQeQyYCto= =SEPk -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?
On Wednesday 18 October 2006 05:41, you wrote: On 2006-10-17, Goswin von Brederlow [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] Anyway, the usual way to detect a newbie and give help to them seems to be to assume everyone a newbie and give little hints, startup tips, ... till they learn enough to turn them off. For examples see gimp or mc. PS: One of the hints better be how to turn the hints off. :) Someone suggested to me off-list that perhaps all we need is to provide a pointer to more newbie help in /etc/issue. Perhaps that would be the easiest to implement, and the easiest for users to disable :-), no? As already suggested, desktop environments could/should have a help/tips display that's turned on by default for new users. What's really needed is better help for newbies dumped unexpectedly at the command-line because X wasn't installed/properly configured/didn't start. I'd suggest only 1-2 lines of login help in /etc/issue, and command-line help (equal to 1-2 lines of text saying type xxx for help) in /etc/motd. xxx might display a help file/command line guide, or start a basic tutorial, or a special newbie shell environment. At its simplest it could just show a 80x24 page of help text containing basic commands and pointers to more help. Andrew -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?
On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 01:02:45PM +, Jason Spiro wrote:
Hi all,
Hi there.
For example, when a person types newbie commands like help or kde
(which is bound to something already) or the DOS commands del or ren
(which are not), we should point them to more help. (In case anyone here
has ever watched a real clueless newbie struggle: What are other
commands that 100% clueless newbies often type?)
I think 'help' is by far the most common one ('?' might be close too).
Currently 'help' brings bash's help which might not be what a newbie
expected. Some (older?) people might even try pressing F1 and see what
happens [0].
I remember back in 2000 providing a Debian package called 'ayuda' ('help', in
Spanish) developed by members of my local IEEE Student Branch. This package
included just a simple shell script ('ayuda') and a number of text files.
When the script was called it would show up a dialog(1) menu a user could
navigate and use to access the manuals included. Manuals were ordered in
'user', 'admin' and 'programming' topics. The 'user' topic would tell him how
to use shell commands, read e-mail, use a text editor (Joe, Vi or Emacs), and
configure his environment.
It would also tell the users how to use the system's proper documentation
(manpages and info) and it would also point to more documentation (HOWTOs and
locally installed documentation).
The tool was abandoned and, after trying to get some community development, I
removed it from Debian.
I guess it would be nice to have something similar. You cannot replace 'help'
(if using Bash, Bash will answer) but a package could provide a 'helpme'
command [1][2] which did something similar.
Right now such a help program should work both in a console and in an X
display (if it detects one) should point users also to the documentation
available in Desktop environments (if available), to (Debian-specific)
documentation packages (like 'doc-debian' or the 'quick-reference') and to
(Debian-specific) use of dwww/dhelp/doc-central.
What would be a good help text to offer when a user types a command that
indicates he/she is a newbie? Also, what package should I file a
wishlist against to request that such help be added?
Since there is no package providing that tool I would say 'general'. However,
filing bugs vs. general doesn't mean they will get fixed by themselves. I
think that it would be much better if somebody sat down and wrote a Debian
help system that provided some Debian-specific things and integrated
properly with both gnome-help and khelpcenter.
Regards
Javier
[0] Many MS-DOS programs (such as Wordperfect, Lotus 1-2-3 and the like)
mapped F1 was always mapped to the 'help' key. This is still true in many
(desktop) environments and applications.
[1] At the very least:
$ cat helpme
#!/bin/sh
echo Don't panic!
[2] Bonus points if someone figures a way to l10n that 'help' call, since
non-english spearkers might write something different such as: 'ayuda',
'hilfe', 'aide', 'aiuto', 'ajuda', etc.
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Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?
On Wed, Oct 18, 2006 at 08:36:42AM +1000, Andrew Vaughan wrote: What's really needed is better help for newbies dumped unexpectedly at the command-line because X wasn't installed/properly configured/didn't start. What's really needed is to fix our X autoconfiguration mechanisms so that this doesn't happen. One of my target goals is to work on this post-etch, and happily upstream is working hard on it as well. If people want to help with this issue, please follow up to debian-x. - David Nusinow -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?
On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 07:56:00PM -0400, David Nusinow wrote: On Wed, Oct 18, 2006 at 08:36:42AM +1000, Andrew Vaughan wrote: What's really needed is better help for newbies dumped unexpectedly at the command-line because X wasn't installed/properly configured/didn't start. What's really needed is to fix our X autoconfiguration mechanisms so that this doesn't happen. One of my target goals is to work on this post-etch, and happily upstream is working hard on it as well. If people want to help with this issue, please follow up to debian-x. IIRC, the majority of the I ended up at a text prompt, what do I do now? questions we see on d-u are not X configuration problems. They are newbies who pick all the defaults and up without X on their systems entirely. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sanchez http://people.connexer.com/~roberto http://www.connexer.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?
On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 08:27:46PM -0400, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 07:56:00PM -0400, David Nusinow wrote: On Wed, Oct 18, 2006 at 08:36:42AM +1000, Andrew Vaughan wrote: What's really needed is better help for newbies dumped unexpectedly at the command-line because X wasn't installed/properly configured/didn't start. What's really needed is to fix our X autoconfiguration mechanisms so that this doesn't happen. One of my target goals is to work on this post-etch, and happily upstream is working hard on it as well. If people want to help with this issue, please follow up to debian-x. IIRC, the majority of the I ended up at a text prompt, what do I do now? questions we see on d-u are not X configuration problems. They are newbies who pick all the defaults and up without X on their systems entirely. This should be fixed for etch, afaik. If you just choose the defaults, you'll end up with a gnome desktop installation and X up and running by default. - David Nusinow -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 10/17/06 19:35, David Nusinow wrote: On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 08:27:46PM -0400, Roberto C. Sanchez wrote: On Tue, Oct 17, 2006 at 07:56:00PM -0400, David Nusinow wrote: On Wed, Oct 18, 2006 at 08:36:42AM +1000, Andrew Vaughan wrote: [snip] This should be fixed for etch, afaik. If you just choose the defaults, you'll end up with a gnome desktop installation and X up and running by default. A deep well of curmudgeonly geekiness is welling up within me, about to burst forth with an overwhelming NOOO!!! We who used MS-DOS in 1985 were not appreciably smarter than people are now, yet we figured out DIR COPY DEL CD. A HELP command and a set of DOS-friendly aliases (and/or scripts) would/should be adequate. After all, this isn't OpenVMS... - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Is common sense really valid? For example, it is common sense to white-power racists that whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins are mud people. However, that common sense is obviously wrong. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFFNYrsS9HxQb37XmcRAoFbAJ9Sopnn7Vaz8IHcgCvY5sLgxJ/wiACdG6NB Fv/zkJDryyt5gsfx+nVCIjM= =fmu8 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?
On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 20:02:45 +0700, Jason Spiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For example, when a person types newbie commands like help or kde (which is bound to something already) or the DOS commands del or ren (which are not), we should point them to more help. (In case anyone here has ever watched a real clueless newbie struggle: What are other commands that 100% clueless newbies often type?) Seems to me that the times of DOS have passed. Back in those times, users would be familiar with the command line of one OS and be frustrated with another's. Today's typical user is rather familiar with a GUI and will be frustrated by a different GUI. For example, Windows users are likely to have a hard time looking for the Start button in Gnome. In a desktop environment, the user needs to do a special action to run the shell (such as starting the Gnome Terminal). It's somewhat unlikely that the user ends up in the scary black screen by accident, and even then he can easily find the familiar close button in the title bar of the window. My point is that today's user only gets a shell when he wants a shell, and users who don't know how to use the shell won't want it. To really help newbies migrate from other OS, it's better to improve the desktop GUIs and make them provide more hints etc. Adding newbie assistance to the shell wouldn't help many users, for the reasons described above. On the other hand, it will annoy advanced users for sure because any newbie detection would be an heuristic which inevitably fails from time to time. Even if the hints need only to be disabled once, it will be annoying to do so every time when maintaining a cluster of Debian machines. So, my opinion is: please don't include things like this in default Debian installations. -- Alexey Feldgendler [EMAIL PROTECTED] [ICQ: 115226275] http://feldgendler.livejournal.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: How can the OS autodetect that a user is a newbie and offer help?
[I have snipped everything except the words I am replying to.]
2006/10/17, Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I think 'help' is by far the most common one ('?' might be close too).
Currently 'help' brings bash's help which might not be what a newbie
expected. Some (older?) people might even try pressing F1 and see what
happens [0].
In xterm my F1 key causes a beep. Perhaps there's a way to remap the
F1 key in bash and/or readline?
I remember back in 2000 providing a Debian package called 'ayuda' ('help', in
Spanish) developed by members of my local IEEE Student Branch. This package
included just a simple shell script ('ayuda') and a number of text files.
When the script was called it would show up a dialog(1) menu a user could
navigate and use to access the manuals included. ...
I guess it would be nice to have something similar.
Interesting idea. But, since a) most people have web access nowadays
and b) people with no web access in a new Linux install can reboot
into Windows if they need web access, therefore I personally wouldn't
want to maintain such a package. Of course, you could get such a
script into Debian yourself (maybe in package debian-goodies or
elsewhere) if you wanted.
What would be a good help text to offer when a user types a command that
indicates he/she is a newbie? Also, what package should I file a
wishlist against to request that such help be added?
Since there is no package providing that tool I would say 'general'. However,
filing bugs vs. general doesn't mean they will get fixed by themselves. I
think that it would be much better if somebody sat down and wrote a Debian
help system that provided some Debian-specific things and integrated
properly with both gnome-help and khelpcenter.
Is more Debian-specific help really needed for KDE/Gnome users? IIRC
Synaptic comes with Gnome help files. Also, there are already lots of
HTML-format manuals for Debian.
[2] Bonus points if someone figures a way to l10n that 'help' call, since
non-english spearkers might write something different such as: 'ayuda',
'hilfe', 'aide', 'aiuto', 'ajuda', etc.
I really like that idea.
Cheers,
Jason
--
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