Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity
On Wed, Oct 24, 2007 at 01:44:03AM +0300, Faidon Liambotis wrote: 25 ieee80211 109 61 ieee80211softmac 14 Merged and deprecated by mac80211. 14 zaptel 295 Not really considered for inclusion by upstream, yet. Not possible to merge in the current state. 2 ndiswrapper1484 Present in Debian, not considered by mainline for inclusion. Upstream Linux even taints itself if a module called ndiswrapper is loaded. 12 kvm 337 Already present in mainline but lags a bit hence the need for a -source package. Why? 76 btsco 7 148 bluetooth-alsa1 Deprecated in favor of userspace alsa plugin. Hmm, the userspace alsa plugin is also called bluetooth-alsa and needs a sco fix not yet submitted. 6 openafs 614 Root-kit aka system call table modifications. 34 thinkpad 54 The acpi support? 41 virtualbox 45 17 virtualbox-ose 258 Builds to a over 1 MiB large module. This does not look minimal to me. 13 loop-aes305 Deprecated by dm-crypt. 24 sl-modem119 non-free, blob 27 pwc 84 Merged. 48 tidev22 USB_SERIAL_TI? 52 openswan 17 Deprecated in favor of XFRM based ipsec support. 54 redhat-cluster 17 gfs2 and corresponding dlm is merged. Legacy support only. 68 qla2x00 10 SCSI_QLA_FC? 87 linux-iscsi 4 Long merged. 90 lustre4 Patches core vfs code. Bastian -- Too much of anything, even love, isn't necessarily a good thing. -- Kirk, The Trouble with Tribbles, stardate 4525.6 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity
34 thinkpad 54 The acpi support? No, the thinkpad modules provided a lot of useful functions for things which are done by acpi now - but back at times when acpi was not useable or didn't exist, they worked very well - and still do so for Thinkpads which can't handle acpi. Thinkpads had a well working APM implementation for a long time, at least up to the R/T40 series. http://tpctl.sourceforge.net/ -- Bernd Zeimetz [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bzed.de/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity
On Wed, Oct 24, 2007 at 11:32:26AM +1000, Paul Wise wrote: Interestingly, Fedora has a new policy that kernel module packages must be merged with kernel.org or removed from Fedora: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/KernelModules http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DavidWoodhouse/KmodProposal I don't think this would be an option for Debian, but it certainly is a gutsy move. Very interesting. I'd say we should atleast consider it due to various points: Why we should follow Fedora -- + Out of kernel modules tend to be low quality. Either they lack the strict kernel community review, or they have failed the review and thus are sticking outside the mainline kernel. Do we want to expose users to buggy drivers? In kernel space there is lots of potential for data-loss and security bugs. Not to mention general system instability. + Out of kernel modules and patches get rapidly out of date Everytime kernel team updates the kernel, a bunch of kernel-module and kernel-patch packages break and need updating. This is big maintainence headache, and litters the RC bug list count. + Out of kernel modules are harder to use Even with m-a, it's still an bunch of extra steps over normal apt-get install. + The effort used in maintaining out of kernel modules could be used in something else. For example in cleaning and helping the driver upstream to submit the driver upstream. Why not... -- - Users will be unhappy with less supported hardware This may be deceptive. The users complaining that ubuntu supported this hardware out of box might have just left ubuntu due to stability problems. - Driver could be good, just the upstream is unjustfiedly refusing it Alternatively the Out-of-kernel module upstream might have whatever reasons why they want to keep their driver away from mainline. Not being a kernel developers, it might be hard to see if the module author or the kernel subsystem maintainer is right about the maturity/quality of the driver. In any case, this is more of a social than technical problem. maintining the driver out-of-free will merely allow to prolong the problem instead of solving it. The Exception to the rule: - non-free kernel modules. - Not mainlineble - ever - Any quality problems will just be a practical demonstration to users of disadvantages of nonfree code. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity
On Wed, Oct 24, 2007 at 12:22:32PM +0300, Riku Voipio wrote: [Fedora disallows non-upstreamed kernel modules] Very interesting. I'd say we should atleast consider it due to various points: My concern is modules in the upstream kernel which have firmware problems. While I am opposed to carrying non-free firmware in main, I have no problem with carrying it in non-free. Therefore, some modules might do well in contrib, or even in main[0], if the firmware is not required. This problem does not occur with Fedora, and therefore their policy does not consider it. This is why we should not follow Fedora. [0] The tg3 driver, which I am using right now for my laptop's ethernet card, is just such a case. See also #446028. -- brian m. carlson / brian with sandals: Houston, Texas, US +1 713 440 7475 | http://crustytoothpaste.ath.cx/~bmc | My opinion only a typesetting engine: http://crustytoothpaste.ath.cx/~bmc/code/thwack OpenPGP: RSA v4 4096b 88AC E9B2 9196 305B A994 7552 F1BA 225C 0223 B187 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity
Faidon Liambotis wrote: 107 cisco-vpnc3 143 cisco-vpnclient 1 (free replacement exists) Which one ? vpnc does not handle connection based on certificate. If you know a free replacement of cisco-vpnclient that can handle certificates, I would be very very very happy. Best regards, Vincent -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity
On (24/10/07 09:50), Bastian Blank wrote: 13 loop-aes305 Deprecated by dm-crypt. Not entirely true. However it is not going to go in to upstream, so the effect is the same. Thanks, James -- James Westby --GPG Key ID: B577FE13-- http://jameswestby.net/ seccure key - (3+)k7|M*edCX/.A:n*N!|7U.L#9E)Tu)T0AM - secp256r1/nistp256 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity
Bastian Blank wrote: 14 zaptel 295 Not really considered for inclusion by upstream, yet. Not possible to merge in the current state. I know, I'm comaintaining it :) It may be a good candidate (along with mISDN/vISDN) for Greg KH's team, however. 12 kvm 337 Already present in mainline but lags a bit hence the need for a -source package. Why? Why what? It's still under heavy development and changes between versions are rapid. Only recently the ABI was stabilized. 76 btsco 7 148 bluetooth-alsa1 Deprecated in favor of userspace alsa plugin. Hmm, the userspace alsa plugin is also called bluetooth-alsa and needs a sco fix not yet submitted. Nope, that's deprecated too now. A support for ALSA was merged into Bluez. bluetooth-alsa's homepage mentions that. I'm 100% sure because it's working for me with stock Debian kernel :) Regards, Faidon -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity
On Wed, Oct 24, 2007 at 08:55:12PM +0200, Vincent Danjean wrote: 107 cisco-vpnc3 143 cisco-vpnclient 1 (free replacement exists) Which one ? vpnc does not handle connection based on certificate. racoon. Bastian -- No one wants war. -- Kirk, Errand of Mercy, stardate 3201.7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity
#include hallo.h * Bastian Blank [Wed, Oct 24 2007, 11:36:27PM]: On Wed, Oct 24, 2007 at 08:55:12PM +0200, Vincent Danjean wrote: 107 cisco-vpnc3 143 cisco-vpnclient 1 (free replacement exists) Which one ? vpnc does not handle connection based on certificate. racoon. Try apt-cache search racoon then. Eduard. -- Tolimar Okay... und jetzt bitte fortunes tauglich zusammen fassen ;) aba Tolimar: *prust* -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity
#include hallo.h * Vincent Danjean [Wed, Oct 24 2007, 08:55:12PM]: Faidon Liambotis wrote: 107 cisco-vpnc3 143 cisco-vpnclient 1 (free replacement exists) Which one ? vpnc does not handle connection based on certificate. It does (less or more) when you recompile it with SSL support. We just cannot distribute it. This would be a pretty good case for risky package, IMHO. Regards, Eduard. -- -!- Znarck [EMAIL PROTECTED] has joined #debian.de Znarck hallo! Znarck join #debian Znarck ls Znarck hello Znarck quit -!- Znarck [EMAIL PROTECTED] has quit [Client Quit] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity
Eduard Bloch wrote: #include hallo.h * Vincent Danjean [Wed, Oct 24 2007, 08:55:12PM]: Faidon Liambotis wrote: 107 cisco-vpnc3 143 cisco-vpnclient 1 (free replacement exists) Which one ? vpnc does not handle connection based on certificate. It does (less or more) when you recompile it with SSL support. We just cannot distribute it. This would be a pretty good case for risky package, IMHO. I've just seen that some support for certificates has been introduced in vpnc as you say :- However, certificates seem to be only used to authentificate the server (so that the login is more secure) but they are not (yet ?) used to authentificate the user (I've a certificate but no login/password at my workplace). So, there is good hope that vpnc will be able to replace cisco-vpnclient, but this is not yet the case for now. Regards, Vincent -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity
Eduard Bloch wrote: #include hallo.h * Bastian Blank [Wed, Oct 24 2007, 11:36:27PM]: On Wed, Oct 24, 2007 at 08:55:12PM +0200, Vincent Danjean wrote: 107 cisco-vpnc3 143 cisco-vpnclient 1 (free replacement exists) Which one ? vpnc does not handle connection based on certificate. racoon. Try apt-cache search racoon then. racoon seems to be a replacement for a cisco system (server, NOT client) I cannot modify the server infrastructure at my work (this can change: I'm not the only one annoyed by the cisco client). So racoon does not seem to fit as a drop-in free replacement for the cisco vpn client. Best regards, Vincent -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity
Am Donnerstag 25 Oktober 2007 schrieb Vincent Danjean: racoon seems to be a replacement for a cisco system (server, NOT client) I cannot modify the server infrastructure at my work (this can change: I'm not the only one annoyed by the cisco client). So racoon does not seem to fit as a drop-in free replacement for the cisco vpn client. No, an IKE daemon is needed on both sides of a IPsec connection (when actually using IKE). Not sure if Ciscos can already do IKEv2 (-racoon2 or openIKEv2). HS -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity
Ben Hutchings wrote: snip Nevertheless on the user's side there is a demand for those=20 codecs which can be whitnessed by the broad acceptance of unofficial=20 repositories [see: http://popcon.debian.org/unknown/by_inst ].=20 snip I didn't know that table existed! It seems like it would be useful to aggregate statistics for out-of-tree kernel module packages by stripping off the kernel version suffix. Here's what I came up with: Nice list! If anyone has some time, it would be valuable to work through the list and check, which of these have been merged into Linux mainline by now (e.g. several of the wifi drivers have) and report the missing ones to Greg Kroah-H's driver project: http://www.linuxdriverproject.org/twiki/bin/view He has 310 developers at hand, who are eager to merge potential out-of- tree drivers and such: http://www.kroah.com/log/ Cheers, Moritz -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity
Ben Hutchings wrote: I didn't know that table existed! It seems like it would be useful to aggregate statistics for out-of-tree kernel module packages by stripping off the kernel version suffix. Here's what I came up with: OK, here's a preliminary analysis of your results. There are quite a few of TODOs, so if anyone wants to step-in, be my guest ;-) WiFi 1 madwifi1666 51 madwifi-ng 18 non-free/deprecated, in favor of ath5k, currently present in wireless-2.6 and pending kernel inclusion. 4 ipw3945 897 Replaced by (free) iwlwifi which will be present in 2.6.24. 5 alsa715 Merged on all 2.6 kernels (this was a sarge package) 73 rt61 8 157 rt73 1 39 rt2400 46 7 rt2500 590 26 rt2570 100 123 rt2x00-cvs2 19 rt2x00 154 All replaced by the latter, which will be present in 2.6.24. 25 ieee80211 109 61 ieee80211softmac 14 31 ipw2100 71 18 ipw2200 169 36 hostap 51 Merged. 78 bcm43xx 6 Merged as bcm43xx and now (2.6.24) b43/b43legacy. 132 rtl8180 1 130 rtl8180-sa24001 Merged. 154 p54 1 Merged. 97 adm8211 3 Merged. 23 linux-wlan-ng 123 Not going to be merged since hostap (already present) does the job better. VoIP 50 misdn20 Created by the i4l team, I think they're considering for inclusion. 14 zaptel 295 Not really considered for inclusion by upstream, yet. 155 sangoma-wanpipe 1 Binary blob, IIRC. proprietary/non-free 29 vmware-kernel79 42 vmware 39 43 vmware-server-kernel 37 47 vmware-any-any-kernel26 96 vmware-any-any-player-1.0.2 3 111 vmware4 2 117 vmware-any-any-player-1.0.3 2 119 vmware-player-kernel 2 125 vmware-tools-kernel 1 128 kernel-vmware 1 107 cisco-vpnc3 143 cisco-vpnclient 1 (free replacement exists) 93 fritz-classic 3 98 fritz-pci 3 100 fritz-pnp 3 109 fritz-xusb3 129 avm 1 False positives --- 11 linux 391 62 linux-ubuntu 12 63 kernel 12 65 linux-restricted 12 85 kernel-nonfree5 95 linux-backports 3 153 dummy-linux 1 145 ext3 1 147 usb 1 150 scsi-core 1 (d-i module packages) Rest 2 ndiswrapper1484 Present in Debian, not considered by mainline for inclusion. 3 kqemu 898 Distributed by Debian (recently moved to main from non-free) I don't think upstream intends to submit it anytime soon. 12 kvm 337 Already present in mainline but lags a bit hence the need for a -source package. 22 unionfs 124 91 unionfs-knoppix 4 In the process of merging (under some discussion). 53 pcmcia 17 30 kernel-pcmcia79 2.4 material, not needed on 2.6. 20 ivtv149 94 ivtv0.3 3 60 ivtv0.4 14 66 ivtv0.6 12 55 ivtv0.7 16 59 ivtv0.8 15 102 ivtv0.9 3 37 ivtv0.10 49 Merged. 28 fuse 82 Merged. 151 lzma 1 Merged. 67 eagle-usb11 69 sony-acpi 9 Merged. 72 freeswan 8 Deprecated in favor of openswan 74 rtai 7 Rejected from inclusion, -rt is the way to go. 75 drbd 7 Proposed for inclusion, under review. 76 btsco 7 148 bluetooth-alsa1 Deprecated in favor of userspace alsa plugin. TODO 6 openafs 614 8 lirc475 9 gspca 461 10 spca5xx 397 32 exmap60 33
Re: Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity
WiFi 4 ipw3945 897 Replaced by (free) iwlwifi which will be present in 2.6.24. iwlwifi is contrib, like ipw3945. 25 ieee80211 109 61 ieee80211softmac 14 31 ipw2100 71 18 ipw2200 169 36 hostap 51 Merged. Already removed. 132 rtl8180 1 130 rtl8180-sa24001 Merged. You must be thinking about rtl8187. These look like unofficial packages anyway. 53 pcmcia 17 30 kernel-pcmcia79 2.4 material, not needed on 2.6. Removed long ago. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity
If anyone has some time, it would be valuable to work through the list and check, which of these have been merged into Linux mainline by now (e.g. several of the wifi drivers have) and report the missing ones to Greg Kroah-H's driver project: http://www.linuxdriverproject.org/twiki/bin/view According to that page We work with the manufacturers of the specific device to specify, develop, submit to the main kernel, and maintain the kernel drivers. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity
According to that page We work with the manufacturers of the specific device to specify, develop, submit to the main kernel, and maintain the kernel drivers. You missed this page: http://www.linuxdriverproject.org/twiki/bin/view/Main/OutOfTreeDrivers -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity
Philippe Cloutier wrote: 4 ipw3945 897 Replaced by (free) iwlwifi which will be present in 2.6.24. iwlwifi is contrib, like ipw3945. iwlwifi needs non-free firmware, ipw3945 needs non-free firmware and non-free userspace daemon. The free above was mainline's defintion, not Debian's. ipw3945 was never merged mainly because of the non-free userspace part, while iwlwifi is already merged on wireless-2.6. 132 rtl8180 1 130 rtl8180-sa24001 Merged. You must be thinking about rtl8187. These look like unofficial packages anyway. Right, I got confused because rtl8180 (the driver) is actually for rtl8185 chipsets (rtl8180 chipsets are not yet supported). Thanks, Faidon -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Out-of-tree kernel module popularity
On 10/20/07, Ben Hutchings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It seems like it would be useful to aggregate statistics for out-of-tree kernel module packages Interestingly, Fedora has a new policy that kernel module packages must be merged with kernel.org or removed from Fedora: http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Packaging/KernelModules http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DavidWoodhouse/KmodProposal I don't think this would be an option for Debian, but it certainly is a gutsy move. -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
