Re: Removing the MTA from the default install
Adam Borowski wrote: On Wed, May 02, 2012 at 10:02:37AM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote: Is this the right time to do it? No. Cron needs some way to report about its jobs, Cron came up in the previous discussion about this on -devel (which I'd started), so I fixed that. See the patches in http://bugs.debian.org/670118 for cron and http://bugs.debian.org/670137 for anacron. With those patches, cron and anacron can log job output to syslog. mdadm has to notify about failures, etc, etc. mdadm already recommends an MTA, and mdadm has priority optional, making it not part of the default install. So, an MTA could become priority optional as well, and only get pulled in when needed. In any case, mdadm already logs to syslog by default, and can run an arbitrary user-specified command on alerts as well. Based on that, I'd suggest changing the Recommends to a Suggests, so that people installing on RAID don't end up with an MTA unless they otherwise want one. I also fixed apt-listchanges (http://bugs.debian.org/666086) so that the default configuration works with or without an MTA installed. As far as I can tell, that seems sufficient to move an MTA from standard to optional. Installing a package which Depends (or Recommends) on an MTA will still pull one in as needed. Sysadmins who want a mail server can easily select the mail server task in tasksel, or otherwise install their mail server of choice. - Josh Triplett -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120503172637.GA10017@leaf
Re: Removing the MTA from the default install
On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org wrote: Is this the right time to do it? Not sure whether it's the right time, but I'm sure it's something I've been waiting for quite some time. :-) -- Regards, Aron Xu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAMr=8w7iNu4fkHzEm9GPt6bbivjsiYt7dt=cyoob8qqu3vt...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Removing the MTA from the default install
On Wed, May 02, 2012 at 10:02:37AM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote: Is this the right time to do it? No. Cron needs some way to report about its jobs, mdadm has to notify about failures, etc, etc. On the other hand, going from a full blown MTA like exim to something like ssmtp or dma¹ would be a great idea. [¹]. dma would be far better as it can handle transient failures when configured to send to a remote host, however, that cronjob every 5 minutes disqualifies it for the job of a laptop MTA. That's fixable, though. -- // If you believe in so-called intellectual property, please immediately // cease using counterfeit alphabets. Instead, contact the nearest temple // of Amon, whose priests will provide you with scribal services for all // your writing needs, for Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory prices. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Removing the MTA from the default install
On Wed, May 02, 2012 at 10:37:31AM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote: On Wed, May 02, 2012 at 10:02:37AM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote: Is this the right time to do it? No. Cron needs some way to report about its jobs, mdadm has to notify about failures, etc, etc. Indeed, some form of tighter guarantees that the user will get these messages would be welcome IMHO. Perhaps all MUAs ship with a local account pre-defined (for the blessed user who gets root's mail, at least). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120502090951.GF17757@debian
Re: Removing the MTA from the default install
On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 4:37 PM, Adam Borowski kilob...@angband.pl wrote: On Wed, May 02, 2012 at 10:02:37AM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote: Is this the right time to do it? No. Cron needs some way to report about its jobs, mdadm has to notify about failures, etc, etc. On the other hand, going from a full blown MTA like exim to something like ssmtp or dma¹ would be a great idea. Ah, but then we should remove the Mail server option from d-i, which is almost useless. -- Regards, Aron Xu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAMr=8w5-ikbB62EhZfbG94B77=njus0wlfnx_0g1ty6x-bu...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Removing the MTA from the default install
On Wed, 02 May 2012, Aron Xu wrote: On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 4:37 PM, Adam Borowski kilob...@angband.pl wrote: On Wed, May 02, 2012 at 10:02:37AM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote: Is this the right time to do it? No. Cron needs some way to report about its jobs, mdadm has to notify about failures, etc, etc. On the other hand, going from a full blown MTA like exim to something like ssmtp or dma¹ would be a great idea. Ah, but then we should remove the Mail server option from d-i, which is almost useless. No. We can keep it, it just doesn't need to be selected by default. However, we really should switch the mail server option to something that would be suitable for mail servers (i.e. something that doesn't play stupid games with standards), such as postfix. I've advocated keeping the status-quo in the past, but I was not aware of the exim4 brokenness. I agree that installing mda by default on desktop installs would be useful. However IME, server installs are much better served by installing postfix, even when they're not MTAs, let alone when they are MTAs... -- One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond where the shadows lie. -- The Silicon Valley Tarot Henrique Holschuh -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20120502112448.ga17...@khazad-dum.debian.net
Re: Removing the MTA from the default install
Josselin Mouette j...@debian.org writes: Is this the right time to do it? Wasn't this just recently discussed? Just replay the thread: http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2011/10/msg00227.html Bjørn -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/87k40u4s1g@nemi.mork.no
Re: Removing the MTA from the default install
On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 7:24 PM, Henrique de Moraes Holschuh h...@debian.org wrote: On Wed, 02 May 2012, Aron Xu wrote: On Wed, May 2, 2012 at 4:37 PM, Adam Borowski kilob...@angband.pl wrote: On Wed, May 02, 2012 at 10:02:37AM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote: Is this the right time to do it? No. Cron needs some way to report about its jobs, mdadm has to notify about failures, etc, etc. On the other hand, going from a full blown MTA like exim to something like ssmtp or dma¹ would be a great idea. Ah, but then we should remove the Mail server option from d-i, which is almost useless. No. We can keep it, it just doesn't need to be selected by default. Currently if I select only OpenSSH server and basic system tools in expert mode, Exim gets installed, too. However, we really should switch the mail server option to something that would be suitable for mail servers (i.e. something that doesn't play stupid games with standards), such as postfix. I've advocated keeping the status-quo in the past, but I was not aware of the exim4 brokenness. I agree that installing mda by default on desktop installs would be useful. However IME, server installs are much better served by installing postfix, even when they're not MTAs, let alone when they are MTAs... I don't think installing mail servers for desktop installation can be _that_ useful, not all Debian users are power users who read system email and mutt (or likewise). -- Regards, Aron Xu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/CAMr=8w4mtmk3-gz5acnoc2tzg_xqhfmzctbxkfvhy6xdc_a...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Removing the MTA from the default install
On Wednesday, May 02, 2012 04:37:31, Adam Borowski wrote: On Wed, May 02, 2012 at 10:02:37AM +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote: Is this the right time to do it? FWIW, de-selecting standard system tasksel option (at least when using the netinstall .iso) results in an installation with no MTA. No. Cron needs some way to report about its jobs, mdadm has to notify about failures, etc, etc. There's been a lot of discussion in the past concerning several MUAs which by default don't show local mail. [more on this below] On the other hand, going from a full blown MTA like exim to something like ssmtp or dma¹ would be a great idea. [¹]. dma would be far better as it can handle transient failures when configured to send to a remote host, however, that cronjob every 5 minutes disqualifies it for the job of a laptop MTA. That's fixable, though. During testing DMA yesterday I realized that I hadn't set up my laptop to forward mail externally. It turned out that the system was trying to notify me about files existing in /lost+found. [This is not a surprise, because I'm using XFS on top of LUKS encryption, and I recently had to hard-power-off the box.] I was successful in getting DMA to send mail using SMTP AUTH over TLS to port 587. [The only snag was that I had to reconfigure Mutt to set envelope_from=yes, otherwise the sending email address was invalid, but this isn't DMA's fault. :-P] -- Chris -- Chris Knadle chris.kna...@coredump.us GPG Key: 4096R/0x1E759A726A9FDD74 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
