Re: Simplify installation of non-free? (was: Debian on the Desktop - plans for Lenny?)
On Aug 09, Tim Hull [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's actually not just ATI/nVidia - most wireless drivers are at least in part non-free. In my case, it's the madwifi drivers with their binary HAL. There's also the ipw2100/2200/3945/etc with the non-free firmware. Without The firmwares are not part of the drivers, please do not taint the reputation of perfectly free drivers. -- ciao, Marco signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Simplify installation of non-free? (was: Debian on the Desktop - plans for Lenny?)
I demand that Marco d'Itri may or may not have written... On Aug 09, Tim Hull [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's actually not just ATI/nVidia - most wireless drivers are at least in part non-free. In my case, it's the madwifi drivers with their binary HAL. There's also the ipw2100/2200/3945/etc with the non-free firmware. The firmwares are not part of the drivers, please do not taint the reputation of perfectly free drivers. You want iwl3945. Newer firmware is needed, but you can throw away that user-space daemon. :-) -- | Darren Salt| linux or ds at | nr. Ashington, | Toon | RISC OS, Linux | youmustbejoking,demon,co,uk | Northumberland | Army | + Output *more* particulate pollutants. BUFFER AGAINST GLOBAL WARMING. Survival of the species is everyone's business. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Simplify installation of non-free? (was: Debian on the Desktop - plans for Lenny?)
On 09/08/07, Don Armstrong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
The objection is making it a priority over supporting free drivers or
diverting people working on supporting vendors who provide DFSG free
drivers by making it a distribution wide priority.
The free drivers are perfectly well supported as they are, and are
excellently maintained by a vast number of talented people from many
projects. The non-free ones are god-awful as a simple result of them being
closed source, and their installation and use can be calamatous for many,
and hence they require special coddling, methinks I am not in favour of
favouring anything over free software - if it were up to me, I'd just buy
one of Intel's excellent and proper-game-capable GPUs (which obviously I
can't, because they don't make any) - but once we have got over the fairly
simple hurdle of enforced freedom the issue just turns into a question of
how to make non-free drivers less nightmarish to install.
Since you appear to be interested in it quite a bit, you'd be well served by
making it your priority.
I'm grossly underqualied in that respect, I fear. I can outline precisely
what needs to be done to make nvidia-glx, for example, bearable[1] (and it
does not involve a specialised GUI, god forbid) but am in no position at all
to do so :(
--
Ben Goodger
B.F. Goodger, Age 16½
[1] metapackage nvidia-graphics-nonfree or similar to not conflict with
the similarly named source package, to depend on nvidia-glx and the current
nvidia-kernel-{uname -r} and other appropriate packages, and a moderately
intelligent post-install script to parse /etc/X11/xorg.conf for the
appropriate settings and flag suspicious lines, with references to
appropriate wiki/man pages... eventually, this should become an aptitude
install nvidia-graphics-nonfree situation, without manual
xorg.conffiddling, and without bludgeoning the entire system
Automatix-style (may
require many weeks of tedious regexen, but it would IMO be worth it to Do
Things Properly, as is the Debian way.)
Re: Simplify installation of non-free? (was: Debian on the Desktop - plans for Lenny?)
On Thu, 09 Aug 2007, Ben Goodger wrote: I can outline precisely what needs to be done to make nvidia-glx, for example, bearable[1] (and it does not involve a specialised GUI, god forbid) but am in no position at all to do so :( Sure you are! Outlining exactly what needs to be done and filing bugs with suggested implementations on the involved packages, and then working on actually getting those changes made and submitting packages that make them to the limit of your ability (and then extending your ability) is exactly the position you are in. Don Armstrong -- It's not Hollywood. War is real, war is primarily not about defeat or victory, it is about death. I've seen thousands and thousands of dead bodies. Do you think I want to have an academic debate on this subject? -- Robert Fisk http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Simplify installation of non-free? (was: Debian on the Desktop - plans for Lenny?)
On Thu, Aug 09, 2007 at 10:34:01PM +0100, Ben Goodger wrote: I'm grossly underqualied in that respect, I fear. I can outline precisely what needs to be done to make nvidia-glx, for example, bearable[1] (and it does not involve a specialised GUI, god forbid) but am in no position at all to do so :( You'd be much more useful if you put some work in to helping get nouveau in to Debian. The many people who've volunteered to help on it have totally failed to move on it in any visible way. As for being in no position to do so, if you want to get started, the XSF is ready to offer any sort of assistance that we can to make it happen, so you're in as much a position as anyone else with Nvidia hardware to make a Free 3D driver for Nvidia cards enter Debian. - David Nusinow -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Simplify installation of non-free? (was: Debian on the Desktop - plans for Lenny?)
On 08/08/2007, Ben Finney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ben Goodger [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Simplifying the installation of non-free graphics card drivers should also be a priority, though not to the extent Canonical are currently planning. I strongly disagree. The installation of non-free should *not* be a priority for the Debian project, since this works against the explicit goal to create a *free* operating system. Individual developers can work on non-free to their heart's content, but it should not get any priority from the Debian project. Oh, for the love of god, not more of this... If these (read: nvidia/ati) drivers were DFSG-compliant, they'd be included by default. Since this is not possible, it should be made as easy as possible to install them. The only thing is to ensure that it remains an opt-in, since people must choose to run proprietary software. The free operating system is all very well, but obviously people cannot be forced to have freedom: they must have the freedom of choice - and once they have made that choice, and been told that they forfeit all respect, right to help, etc etc, then the issue becomes one of usability. At this point, the problem is not should we make installing _non-free_ software easy? but how can we make installing this _program_ painless? -- Ben Goodger B.F. Goodger, Age 16½
Re: Simplify installation of non-free? (was: Debian on the Desktop - plans for Lenny?)
Oh, for the love of god, not more of this... If these (read: nvidia/ati) drivers were DFSG-compliant, they'd be included by default. Since this is not possible, it should be made as easy as possible to install them. The only thing is to ensure that it remains an opt-in, since people must choose to run proprietary software. At this point, the problem is not should we make installing _non-free_ software easy? but how can we make installing this _program_ painless? It's actually not just ATI/nVidia - most wireless drivers are at least in part non-free. In my case, it's the madwifi drivers with their binary HAL. There's also the ipw2100/2200/3945/etc with the non-free firmware. Without these drivers, it can be difficult or impossible for many users to use the network - which is really quite a fundamental aspect of computing. I agree that it should be a choice - if non-free isn't activated, these drivers as well as all other non-free software should not appear in any way, shape, or form. However, if the user has chosen to activate non-free, installing these drivers - or any other non-free software the uer may choose to install - should be painless (though still *optional*). Granted, it shouldn't be supported to the same extent as free software - it's obviously harder to do so without the source, anyway. However, making it painful for users who want to install non-free software - ESPECIALLY for users who need non-free *drivers* for their hardware - will only drive more people away. IMO, Debian shouldn't drive people away because they need to use wireless or 3D and don't want to buy brand new hardware.
Re: Simplify installation of non-free? (was: Debian on the Desktop - plans for Lenny?)
On Wed, 08 Aug 2007, Ben Goodger wrote: On 08/08/2007, Ben Finney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Individual developers can work on non-free to their heart's content, but it should not get any priority from the Debian project. If these (read: nvidia/ati) drivers were DFSG-compliant, they'd be included by default. Since this is not possible, it should be made as easy as possible to install them. The only thing is to ensure that it remains an opt-in, since people must choose to run proprietary software. I don't believe anyone objects to people who are interested in non-free drivers working on making them less painfull to install (so long as people are warned that they are installing non-free drivers.) The objection is making it a priority over supporting free drivers or diverting people working on supporting vendors who provide DFSG free drivers by making it a distribution wide priority. Since you appear to be interested in it quite a bit, you'd be well served by making it your priority. Don Armstrong -- One day I put instant coffee in my microwave oven and almost went back in time. -- Steven Wright http://www.donarmstrong.com http://rzlab.ucr.edu -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
