Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
> Josip Rodin ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote on 6 May 2007 15:45: > >Actually, it wouldn't be all that difficult. All we have to do is ask. > > Ours is available if you're interested. > > >My point being, > >just because it's on project-owned machines that doesn't necessarily > mean > >that we'll do a particularly good job of it :) > > For example, if it depends on debian-admin you can forget it... As far > as I've seen they have a quite poor quality of service :-( > Ours too. Ricardo Yanez > > -- > To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
Josip Rodin ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote on 6 May 2007 15:45: >Actually, it wouldn't be all that difficult. All we have to do is ask. Ours is available if you're interested. >My point being, >just because it's on project-owned machines that doesn't necessarily mean >that we'll do a particularly good job of it :) For example, if it depends on debian-admin you can forget it... As far as I've seen they have a quite poor quality of service :-( -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
On Fri, Apr 13, 2007 at 12:21:09AM +0200, Javier Fernández-Sanguino Pe?a wrote: > > Looking at the submission numbers from > > http://popcon.debian.org/>, I am happy to report that the number > > of Etch installations is increasing fast. > > IMHO there are some ways we could track get some better numbers for that. > > Given the fact that "many" users are using security.debian.org as the default > security mirror, that etch enables it by default (there were some previous > releases that didn't IIRC) and that *we* have control over those servers' > logs we could count the number of downloads of the Packages files from the > official security mirrors [1]. > [...] > [1] Official mirrors could also be used, but getting the logs from the > different admins would be rather difficult. Actually, it wouldn't be all that difficult. All we have to do is ask. I bet that most people would be happy to send us their logs if we asked them nicely. We already bother them with various other requests, this wouldn't be a major thing for most people. Cc:ing and MFT'ing debian-mirrors for further discussion of this particular aspect. As it happens, the other day I was going about fixing up our own HTTP daemon log analysis for www.debian.org - we had the logs on our machine, but nobody noticed that our webalizer cron jobs died due to an upgrade. My point being, just because it's on project-owned machines that doesn't necessarily mean that we'll do a particularly good job of it :) the other volunteers who don't happen to be official developers but contribute their knowledge as mirror admins could almost as easily help collect this data. -- 2. That which causes joy or happiness. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
[Johannes Wiedersich] > My point was, that popcon is not a good metric for the number of > installed systems, since it reports about the same number of systems > that we agree on being way too low. I agree. It can be used as a lower bound, thought. It is unlikely that there are fewer Debian systems than those reporting to popcon.debian.org. And tomorrow, I expect that number to pass 40 000. :) Anyway, popularity-contest give us feedback on the package usage, and even if the number of contributors do not match the number of installed systems, it still give us valuable feedback on the relative package usage. :) Friendly, -- Petter Reinholdtsen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
On Tue, 17 Apr 2007 13:53:51 +0200, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: > Anyway, popularity-contest give us feedback on the package usage, and > even if the number of contributors do not match the number of installed > systems, it still give us valuable feedback on the relative package > usage. :) BTW, is the data used to generate http://popcon.debian.org/stat/ release.png available from anywhere? There are now so many versions that the legend gets cut off, which is a shame. I guess I'm looking for historical versions of (the top of) . -- Sam Morris http://robots.org.uk/ PGP key id 1024D/5EA01078 3412 EA18 1277 354B 991B C869 B219 7FDB 5EA0 1078 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
Moritz Muehlenhoff wrote: > Johannes Wiedersich wrote: >> Presently the number of installations reported to popcon is about the >> same as the number of subscriptions to debian-security-announce, but I >> am sure there are many users of debian who don't read d-s-a and many >> users, who have several -maybe hundreds- of installations and subscribe >> only once! :-) > > I don't believe it's a useful metric: The two most popular security > mailing lists (Bugtraq and full-disclosure) are subscribed to d-s-a > and there are plenty of other multiplicators (CERTs, internal mailing > lists, web sites). Plus, many people install security updates blindly. My point was not to say that the number of subscribers to d-s-a is a good metric for installed systems. I agree that the number of people reading d-s-a is higher than that and the number of people using debian is much higher still. My point was, that popcon is not a good metric for the number of installed systems, since it reports about the same number of systems that we agree on being way too low. Cheers, Johannes -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
Johannes Wiedersich wrote: > Presently the number of installations reported to popcon is about the > same as the number of subscriptions to debian-security-announce, but I > am sure there are many users of debian who don't read d-s-a and many > users, who have several -maybe hundreds- of installations and subscribe > only once! :-) I don't believe it's a useful metric: The two most popular security mailing lists (Bugtraq and full-disclosure) are subscribed to d-s-a and there are plenty of other multiplicators (CERTs, internal mailing lists, web sites). Plus, many people install security updates blindly. Cheers, Moritz -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
* Joey Hess <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> (Thu, 12 Apr 2007 15:45:38 -0400): > > Lars Wirzenius wrote: > > However, changing the popcon debconf question to something like the > > following might be an acceptable compromise: > > Farid not, it might result in slightly more installations being > reported, but it will not let us calculate the approximate total number > of new installations, since most people will still choose the default > "No", and we will still have no good number for what percentage don't. As suggested by Simon Josefsson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> in <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, the default could be the report-installation-only answer; here it would be: > > [ ] I want to report once that I have installed Debian. The just-hit-enter users would be counted, then, as well as the deliberate popcon participators. At the same time, full privacy would still be available through the not-at-all option, but deliberately. Regards, Fabian -- Fabian "zzz" Pietsch - http://zzz.arara.de/ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 14:53:42 +0200 Johannes Wiedersich <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > For laptops brand/model would be nice, although it probably will be > difficult or impossible to include that in an automated fashion. No it wouldn't. Most laptops have usable information in their smbios which. See dmidecode(8). grts Tim signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
On Fri, Apr 13, 2007 at 09:16:33AM +0200, Alexander Schmehl wrote: > > Yes, and some (like me) use a private mirror for internal use. But at > least we could estimate a lower count, which would be better, than the > "don't know" we currently have. > That makes sense. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sánchez http://people.connexer.com/~roberto http://www.connexer.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
Roberto C. Sánchez wrote: > On Fri, Apr 13, 2007 at 12:21:09AM +0200, Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña > wrote: >> The only caveat I can think of (but there might be others) is that it would >> not be possible to properly count installations that are using >> corporate (or ISP's) caching proxies (in somecases those are transparent to >> the end users) >> > I think that is the principal problem. I use apt-proxy and have about a > dozen machines (counting virtual machines) that all hit that one > apt-proxy. > > I am not sure how best to solve that problem. It's probably impossible to get perfectly reliable figures for installations. I'm sure that even the companies that sell their OS don't have exact numbers for installed systems. Presently the number of installations reported to popcon is about the same as the number of subscriptions to debian-security-announce, but I am sure there are many users of debian who don't read d-s-a and many users, who have several -maybe hundreds- of installations and subscribe only once! :-) A combination of voluntary popcon as is, addition of some voluntary hardware information and correlating this information with that from logfiles at security.debian.org would improve the reliability of the present data of popcon significantly. Also with regard to privacy we shouldn't aim at a perfect counting system, but as far as the estimates can be improved, they should. Johannes -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
Hi! * Roberto C. Sánchez <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> [070413 00:27]: > > The only caveat I can think of (but there might be others) is that it would > > not be possible to properly count installations that are using > > corporate (or ISP's) caching proxies (in somecases those are transparent to > > the end users) > I think that is the principal problem. I use apt-proxy and have about a > dozen machines (counting virtual machines) that all hit that one > apt-proxy. Yes, and some (like me) use a private mirror for internal use. But at least we could estimate a lower count, which would be better, than the "don't know" we currently have. Yours sincerely, Alexander
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
* Ron Johnson: > On 04/12/07 15:14, Florian Weimer wrote: >> * Ron Johnson: >> >>> On 04/12/07 14:32, Kurt Roeckx wrote: >>> [snip] You can also see this by looking at /proc/cpuinfo looking for "lm" in flags. >>> Does lahf_lm count? >> >> The file should also list "lm" earlier on the same line. > > Oh well, I guess my Sempron doesn't have that capability. Can you post your full /proc/cpuinfo file? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
On Thu, Apr 12, 2007 at 08:35:50PM +0200, Bart Martens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Thu, 2007-04-12 at 17:32 +0200, gregor herrmann wrote: > > On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 15:22:37 +0200, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: > > > > > > dmidecode output is a big problem. It includes machine UUID and serial > > > > numbers. > > > Yes. > > > Perhaps we only want to collect a subset of that information, or at > > > least warn the admin about the issues. > > > > I'd suggest to show the person in front of the computer which data > > would be sent and get their approval before actually sending them. > > Yes, good idea. This feels similar to "reportbug" offering a chance to > edit the e-mail before sending. This excludes any discussion about > privacy. It has the risk that the user edits the report an makes it unparseable by the popcon tools... Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña wrote: > Better yet, set up a MRTG-like graph. Everybody loves fancy graphs and they > are really useful in presentations at conferences :) http://popcon.debian.org/stat/sub-i386.png -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
On Fri, Apr 13, 2007 at 12:21:09AM +0200, Javier Fernández-Sanguino Peña wrote: > > The only caveat I can think of (but there might be others) is that it would > not be possible to properly count installations that are using > corporate (or ISP's) caching proxies (in somecases those are transparent to > the end users) > I think that is the principal problem. I use apt-proxy and have about a dozen machines (counting virtual machines) that all hit that one apt-proxy. I am not sure how best to solve that problem. Regards, -Roberto -- Roberto C. Sánchez http://people.connexer.com/~roberto http://www.connexer.com signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
On Thu, Apr 12, 2007 at 07:25:02PM +0200, Tshepang Lekhonkhobe wrote: > Please keep on sending these interesting stats, perhaps once-per-week, > to some blog or some mailing list. I'll be real glad. Thanks... Better yet, set up a MRTG-like graph. Everybody loves fancy graphs and they are really useful in presentations at conferences :) Javie signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
On Thu, Apr 12, 2007 at 05:29:13AM -0400, Joey Hess wrote: > Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: > > Looking at the submission numbers from > > http://popcon.debian.org/>, I am happy to report that the number > > of Etch installations is increasing fast. Here are the number of > > submissions collected by popularity-contest, with the increment. It > > is easy to see when Etch was released. > > Now if we only knew what percentage of users take the manual action > needed to answer Yes to the "enable popcon" question... IMHO there are some ways we could track get some better numbers for that. Given the fact that "many" users are using security.debian.org as the default security mirror, that etch enables it by default (there were some previous releases that didn't IIRC) and that *we* have control over those servers' logs we could count the number of downloads of the Packages files from the official security mirrors [1]. That would give us an estimate of new installations (or upgrades to etch), since apt will not download the Package file after installation (it will go for the pdiffs as the security archive should not change that much, at least not for a few months) [2]. This could be useful to have better estimates on how many installations have been "recently" made. Track this after the release, correlate with popcon submissions and you have better data to get an approximate percentage of users not registering for popcon. You can even get approximate results of *real* systems and number of systems behind NATed addresses. The only caveat I can think of (but there might be others) is that it would not be possible to properly count installations that are using corporate (or ISP's) caching proxies (in somecases those are transparent to the end users) You would still will not be able to count installations that are not Internet connected. But you are not going to be able to count them through any other mechanisms (not even through the "report once" mechanism that Lars suggested) Regards Javier [1] Official mirrors could also be used, but getting the logs from the different admins would be rather difficult. [2] Unless he removes the Packages file manually from his system, however, in which case it would be downloaded again. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 04/12/07 15:14, Florian Weimer wrote: > * Ron Johnson: > >> On 04/12/07 14:32, Kurt Roeckx wrote: >> [snip] >>> You can also see this by looking at /proc/cpuinfo looking for "lm" in >>> flags. >> Does lahf_lm count? > > The file should also list "lm" earlier on the same line. Oh well, I guess my Sempron doesn't have that capability. - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFGHpagS9HxQb37XmcRAtdNAKDHpxsVuyrLK0Bgiu4/YCTIk6NiwQCfZhep dKi2nFI7UEWUKcfKHDsx4kU= =2gdP -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
* Ron Johnson: > On 04/12/07 14:32, Kurt Roeckx wrote: > [snip] >> >> You can also see this by looking at /proc/cpuinfo looking for "lm" in >> flags. > > Does lahf_lm count? The file should also list "lm" earlier on the same line. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 04/12/07 14:32, Kurt Roeckx wrote: [snip] > > You can also see this by looking at /proc/cpuinfo looking for "lm" in > flags. Does lahf_lm count? - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Give a man a fish, and he eats for a day. Hit him with a fish, and he goes away for good! -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFGHpLiS9HxQb37XmcRAuH5AKDtOcWIMErfRfSsOROrIdIJCCkCWgCfbvy9 kHT1S+fIjNvVxiGs2W5Lfq8= =skEN -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
On Thu, Apr 12, 2007 at 09:32:33PM +0200, Kurt Roeckx wrote: > > > > I would be very interested in an i386-only feature to report wether the CPU > > is 64-bit capable (I have code in win32-loader with this functionality). > > > > I'm not sure how this would fit in your client/server protocol, but I can > > easily grab the code from win32-loader and integrate it if you tell me. > > You can also see this by looking at /proc/cpuinfo looking for "lm" in > flags. Sounds good. Maybe we could just include the whole cpuinfo ? -- Robert Millan My spam trap is [EMAIL PROTECTED] Note: this address is only intended for spam harvesters. Writing to it will get you added to my black list. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
[Robert Millan] > I would be very interested in an i386-only feature to report wether > the CPU is 64-bit capable (I have code in win32-loader with this > functionality). > > I'm not sure how this would fit in your client/server protocol, but I can > easily grab the code from win32-loader and integrate it if you tell me. Right. This sound like something to put in the subarch reporting tool I have wanted a long time. We use 'dpkg --print-installation-architecture' to report architecture, but there is no similar tool to report sub-architecture. Can you provide some 'subarch' program/package to report this information? I do not want to have the code to detect it in popularity-contest, but would be interested in reporting the output from some other package if it exist. > Want a bug report? I know libdebian-installer have some subarch detection code. If it would provide a user space package in the installed system, I would be very happy. :) Friendly, -- Petter Reinholdtsen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
Lars Wirzenius wrote: > However, changing the popcon debconf question to something like the > following might be an acceptable compromise: Farid not, it might result in slightly more installations being reported, but it will not let us calculate the approximate total number of new installations, since most people will still choose the default "No", and we will still have no good number for what percentage don't. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
On Thu, Apr 12, 2007 at 09:24:38PM +0200, Robert Millan wrote: > On Thu, Apr 12, 2007 at 01:49:19PM +0200, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: > > > > Actually, I've considered adding hardware reporting to popcon, using a > > separate question (or more options, not sure which), and hardware > > reports do not need to be sent as often as package usage. Such > > report-once setting should report the output of lsmod, lspci, > > dmidecode, lsusb etc, to allow us to know what hardware is in use out > > there. > > I would be very interested in an i386-only feature to report wether the CPU > is 64-bit capable (I have code in win32-loader with this functionality). > > I'm not sure how this would fit in your client/server protocol, but I can > easily grab the code from win32-loader and integrate it if you tell me. You can also see this by looking at /proc/cpuinfo looking for "lm" in flags. Kurt -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
On Thu, Apr 12, 2007 at 01:49:19PM +0200, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: > > Actually, I've considered adding hardware reporting to popcon, using a > separate question (or more options, not sure which), and hardware > reports do not need to be sent as often as package usage. Such > report-once setting should report the output of lsmod, lspci, > dmidecode, lsusb etc, to allow us to know what hardware is in use out > there. I would be very interested in an i386-only feature to report wether the CPU is 64-bit capable (I have code in win32-loader with this functionality). I'm not sure how this would fit in your client/server protocol, but I can easily grab the code from win32-loader and integrate it if you tell me. Want a bug report? -- Robert Millan My spam trap is [EMAIL PROTECTED] Note: this address is only intended for spam harvesters. Writing to it will get you added to my black list. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
On Thu, 2007-04-12 at 17:32 +0200, gregor herrmann wrote: > On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 15:22:37 +0200, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: > > > > dmidecode output is a big problem. It includes machine UUID and serial > > > numbers. > > Yes. > > Perhaps we only want to collect a subset of that information, or at > > least warn the admin about the issues. > > I'd suggest to show the person in front of the computer which data > would be sent and get their approval before actually sending them. Yes, good idea. This feels similar to "reportbug" offering a chance to edit the e-mail before sending. This excludes any discussion about privacy. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
On Thu, 2007-04-12 at 10:39 +, Lars Wirzenius wrote: > However, changing the popcon debconf question to something like the > following might be an acceptable compromise: > > Would you like to participate in the Debian package popularity > contest meter? Blah blah blah. You may also choose to only > report once that you have installed this release of Debian on a > new machine. In that case no other information from you or your > machine gets recorded. > > [ ] No, I do not want to participate at all. > [ ] I want to report once that I have installed Debian. > [ ] I want to participate in the package popularity contest. Good idea. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
On Thu, 2007-04-12 at 11:31 +0200, Fabio Tranchitella wrote: > * 2007-04-12 11:29, Joey Hess wrote: > > I wonder if it would be reasonable to make d-i hit one of two urls > > depending on whether the user chose to enable popcon, and count the > > results. > > Isn't this a violation of user's privacy? If the user hitted `No', this > really means that he doesn't want to call home. I agree that the answer "no" to popcon should not produce any network traffic. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
On 4/12/07, Petter Reinholdtsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: Looking at the submission numbers from http://popcon.debian.org/>, I am happy to report that the number of Etch installations is increasing fast. Here are the number of submissions collected by popularity-contest, with the increment. It is easy to see when Etch was released. date submissions change 2007-04-03 32311 +55 2007-04-04 32400 +89 2007-04-05 32504+104 2007-04-06 32525 +21 2007-04-07 32595 +70 2007-04-08 32722+127 2007-04-09 33639+917 2007-04-10 34530+891 2007-04-11 35420+890 Now I just wonder how long the rate of increase will keep up. :) Please keep on sending these interesting stats, perhaps once-per-week, to some blog or some mailing list. I'll be real glad. Thanks... -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 15:22:37 +0200, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: > > dmidecode output is a big problem. It includes machine UUID and serial > > numbers. > Yes. > Perhaps we only want to collect a subset of that information, or at > least warn the admin about the issues. I'd suggest to show the person in front of the computer which data would be sent and get their approval before actually sending them. gregor -- .''`. http://info.comodo.priv.at/ | gpg key ID: 0x00F3CFE4 : :' : debian: the universal operating system - http://www.debian.org/ `. `' member of https://www.vibe.at/ | how to reply: http://got.to/quote/ `-NP: Alannah Myles signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
[Henrique de Moraes Holschuh] > dmidecode output is a big problem. It includes machine UUID and serial > numbers. Yes. Perhaps we only want to collect a subset of that information, or at least warn the admin about the issues. I believe The ubuntu hardware database collect that kind of information to http://hwdb.ubuntu.com/> already, and are reluctant to share the information collected because of it. dmidecode is the only place I know we can get hardware model and for example if the machine support IPMI, so I want to collect at least of of it. Perhaps we should filter out the lines with 'UUID:' and 'Serial Number:' Not sure if it is enough to avoid the sensitive stuff. Friendly, -- Petter Reinholdtsen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
Lars Wirzenius wrote: > However, changing the popcon debconf question to something like the > following might be an acceptable compromise: > > Would you like to participate in the Debian package popularity > contest meter? Blah blah blah. You may also choose to only > report once that you have installed this release of Debian on a > new machine. In that case no other information from you or your > machine gets recorded. > > [ ] No, I do not want to participate at all. > [ ] I want to report once that I have installed Debian. > [ ] I want to participate in the package popularity contest. > > The new choice would then do something like generate a UUID for the > machine and do a single HTTP query to report it and the contents > of /etc/debian_version. > > How does that sound? Sounds good! I would suggest to also include at least some limited hardware information. That could help to convince hardware suppliers that it pays off to offer linux supported hardware; I'm thinking especially about notebooks. It could also help shoppers to get an impression of how many people use debian (successfully) on what type of laptop/hardware, even though that information is no substitute to tuxmobil.org or www.linux-laptop.net. For laptops brand/model would be nice, although it probably will be difficult or impossible to include that in an automated fashion. Johannes -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
Petter Reinholdtsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > [Sebastian Mach] >> Is that only for stable? Me for example uses a february testing, and >> I might not be alone > > These numbers are for everyone, including oldstable, stable, testing > and unstable. And what is most interesting about them is their rate of increase. And I don't think anybody will now install a february testing. Matthias -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
On Thu, 12 Apr 2007, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: > Actually, I've considered adding hardware reporting to popcon, using a > separate question (or more options, not sure which), and hardware > reports do not need to be sent as often as package usage. Such > report-once setting should report the output of lsmod, lspci, > dmidecode, lsusb etc, to allow us to know what hardware is in use out > there. dmidecode output is a big problem. It includes machine UUID and serial numbers. -- "One disk to rule them all, One disk to find them. One disk to bring them all and in the darkness grind them. In the Land of Redmond where the shadows lie." -- The Silicon Valley Tarot Henrique Holschuh -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
[Lars Wirzenius] > However, changing the popcon debconf question to something like the > following might be an acceptable compromise: > > Would you like to participate in the Debian package popularity > contest meter? Blah blah blah. You may also choose to only > report once that you have installed this release of Debian on a > new machine. In that case no other information from you or your > machine gets recorded. > > [ ] No, I do not want to participate at all. > [ ] I want to report once that I have installed Debian. > [ ] I want to participate in the package popularity contest. Interesting idea. Perhaps it deserve a wishlist request in BTS? > The new choice would then do something like generate a UUID for the > machine and do a single HTTP query to report it and the contents of > /etc/debian_version. Actually, I've considered adding hardware reporting to popcon, using a separate question (or more options, not sure which), and hardware reports do not need to be sent as often as package usage. Such report-once setting should report the output of lsmod, lspci, dmidecode, lsusb etc, to allow us to know what hardware is in use out there. Friendly, -- Petter Reinholdtsen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
[Sebastian Mach] > Is that only for stable? Me for example uses a february testing, and > I might not be alone These numbers are for everyone, including oldstable, stable, testing and unstable. Friendly, -- Petter Reinholdtsen -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
Lars Wirzenius wrote: I may be wrong, I don't know, but in my opinion a ping to call back home even if the user said `No' is a evil behaviour and Debian should avoid it. I agree. If the user says "no", we should do nothing. Indeed, I also think that "No" here means "I don't want to send any kind of information". However, changing the popcon debconf question to something like the following might be an acceptable compromise: [...] [ ] No, I do not want to participate at all. [ ] I want to report once that I have installed Debian. [ ] I want to participate in the package popularity contest. That sounds pretty good, and I believe that the "blind-user effect" Joey spoke about would be reduced with a select choice. Regards, -- Alexis Sukrieh -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
On Thu, Apr 12, 2007 at 01:13:55PM +0200, Thijs Kinkhorst wrote: > On Thu, 2007-04-12 at 05:29 -0400, Joey Hess wrote: > > I wonder if it would be reasonable to make d-i hit one of two urls > > depending on whether the user chose to enable popcon, and count the > > results. > > Since there are some potential drawbacks to this functionality, what > concrete gain would the project have for collecting that information? As suggested by a Linux.com article about what Fedora did[1], you can use it to be more convincing towards others. For example, when trying to convince a software supplier to change license terms to be DFSG-free, it will sound more convincing if we can actually give some better estimate on how many users Debian has than "eh, no idea actually". To quote the article: | The metrics gleaned from Fedora's data collection amount to more than | just a chance for developers to pat themselves on the back, however. | They also provide the opportunity to show the growing number of Linux | users within the computing community which, in turn, may goose hardware | vendors into offering more Linux-friendly goods and services. | | "This provides objective data that helps prove Linux is growing and it | helps build a case for Linux in general" says Spevack. "Also, we always | say we wish hardware vendors had more [Linux-capable] drivers. Well, if | you can go to them and say, 'Hey, there's millions of people using | this,' then maybe they will listen. In the real world, you need data to | prove your case. Well, here it is." --Jeroen [1] http://www.linux.com/article.pl?sid=07/01/15/2137215 -- Jeroen van Wolffelaar [EMAIL PROTECTED] (also for Jabber & MSN; ICQ: 33944357) http://Jeroen.A-Eskwadraat.nl -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
On Thu, 12 Apr 2007 10:39:32 +, Lars Wirzenius wrote: > > I may be wrong, I don't know, but in my opinion a ping to call back home > > even if the user said `No' is a evil behaviour and Debian should avoid it. > I agree. If the user says "no", we should do nothing. Full ack. > [ ] No, I do not want to participate at all. > [ ] I want to report once that I have installed Debian. > [ ] I want to participate in the package popularity contest. > > How does that sound? Sounds good to me. gregor -- .''`. http://info.comodo.priv.at/ | gpg key ID: 0x00F3CFE4 : :' : debian: the universal operating system - http://www.debian.org/ `. `' member of https://www.vibe.at/ | how to reply: http://got.to/quote/ `-You're dead, Jim. -- McCoy, "Amok Time", stardate 3372.7 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
On Thu, 2007-04-12 at 05:29 -0400, Joey Hess wrote: > I wonder if it would be reasonable to make d-i hit one of two urls > depending on whether the user chose to enable popcon, and count the > results. Since there are some potential drawbacks to this functionality, what concrete gain would the project have for collecting that information? Thijs signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
On to, 2007-04-12 at 12:16 +0200, Fabio Tranchitella wrote: > * 2007-04-12 12:09, Raphael Hertzog wrote: > > As long as we don't use that to collect sensitive information, it would be > > ok IMO. (Of course, a preseed question could avoid it completely too) > > I think Google Earth for Linux does the same, and IIRC the general > agreement in the free software community was that it is a evil behavior. > > I may be wrong, I don't know, but in my opinion a ping to call back home > even if the user said `No' is a evil behaviour and Debian should avoid it. I agree. If the user says "no", we should do nothing. However, changing the popcon debconf question to something like the following might be an acceptable compromise: Would you like to participate in the Debian package popularity contest meter? Blah blah blah. You may also choose to only report once that you have installed this release of Debian on a new machine. In that case no other information from you or your machine gets recorded. [ ] No, I do not want to participate at all. [ ] I want to report once that I have installed Debian. [ ] I want to participate in the package popularity contest. The new choice would then do something like generate a UUID for the machine and do a single HTTP query to report it and the contents of /etc/debian_version. How does that sound? -- Sadly, our technology is insufficiently advanced. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
Fabio Tranchitella <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > * 2007-04-12 11:29, Joey Hess wrote: >> I wonder if it would be reasonable to make d-i hit one of two urls >> depending on whether the user chose to enable popcon, and count the >> results. > > Isn't this a violation of user's privacy? If the user hitted `No', this > really means that he doesn't want to call home. If the user hit enter on 'No' there could be another question asking whether to just report that you installed a new machine. The default for that question would be 'Yes'. Hm. To reduce the number of questions asked during install, I suggest having three options for the popcon question: [ ] No, don't use popcon [X] No, don't use popcon, but notify that you installed a new machine. [ ] Yes, use popcon The middle option would be the default. It would do a HTTP GET to some debian.org machine. However, this opens up for people setting up bots to destroy the statistics... /Simon -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
Raphael Hertzog wrote: > Hi, > > On Thu, 12 Apr 2007, Fabio Tranchitella wrote: > > * 2007-04-12 11:29, Joey Hess wrote: > > > I wonder if it would be reasonable to make d-i hit one of two urls > > > depending on whether the user chose to enable popcon, and count > the > > > results. > > > > Isn't this a violation of user's privacy? If the user hitted `No', > this > > really means that he doesn't want to call home. > > As long as we don't use that to collect sensitive information, it > would be > ok IMO. (Of course, a preseed question could avoid it completely too) > > Fedora has done it and while the initial discussion came up with such > concerns, they have done so without creating major troubles or loosing > developers, etc. > > I remember this LWN article on this topic: > http://lwn.net/Articles/203694/ > > I can't find a newer article with the final decision taken and the > rationale but that would be interesting for this discussion. There's this, which refers to an article on linux.com: http://lwn.net/Articles/219628/ J. -- +0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+ www: http://www.azazel.net/ pgp: http://www.azazel.net/~azazel/az_key.asc +0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+0+ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
* 2007-04-12 12:09, Raphael Hertzog wrote: > As long as we don't use that to collect sensitive information, it would be > ok IMO. (Of course, a preseed question could avoid it completely too) I think Google Earth for Linux does the same, and IIRC the general agreement in the free software community was that it is a evil behavior. I may be wrong, I don't know, but in my opinion a ping to call back home even if the user said `No' is a evil behaviour and Debian should avoid it. Cheers, -- Fabio Tranchitella http://www.kobold.it Free Software Developer and Consultant http://www.tranchitella.it _ 1024D/7F961564, fpr 5465 6E69 E559 6466 BF3D 9F01 2BF8 EE2B 7F96 1564 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
Hi, On Thu, 12 Apr 2007, Fabio Tranchitella wrote: > * 2007-04-12 11:29, Joey Hess wrote: > > I wonder if it would be reasonable to make d-i hit one of two urls > > depending on whether the user chose to enable popcon, and count the > > results. > > Isn't this a violation of user's privacy? If the user hitted `No', this > really means that he doesn't want to call home. As long as we don't use that to collect sensitive information, it would be ok IMO. (Of course, a preseed question could avoid it completely too) Fedora has done it and while the initial discussion came up with such concerns, they have done so without creating major troubles or loosing developers, etc. I remember this LWN article on this topic: http://lwn.net/Articles/203694/ I can't find a newer article with the final decision taken and the rationale but that would be interesting for this discussion. Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog Premier livre français sur Debian GNU/Linux : http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
* 2007-04-12 11:29, Joey Hess wrote: > I wonder if it would be reasonable to make d-i hit one of two urls > depending on whether the user chose to enable popcon, and count the > results. Isn't this a violation of user's privacy? If the user hitted `No', this really means that he doesn't want to call home. Cheers, -- Fabio Tranchitella http://www.kobold.it Free Software Developer and Consultant http://www.tranchitella.it _ 1024D/7F961564, fpr 5465 6E69 E559 6466 BF3D 9F01 2BF8 EE2B 7F96 1564 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: > Looking at the submission numbers from > http://popcon.debian.org/>, I am happy to report that the number > of Etch installations is increasing fast. Here are the number of > submissions collected by popularity-contest, with the increment. It > is easy to see when Etch was released. Now if we only knew what percentage of users take the manual action needed to answer Yes to the "enable popcon" question... My personal guess is somewhere between 1 and 10%, just a gut feeling, based on the well-established tendancy of many users to blindly hit enter to all dialogs whenever possible. I wonder if it would be reasonable to make d-i hit one of two urls depending on whether the user chose to enable popcon, and count the results. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: The number of etch installations is rocketing...
Petter Reinholdtsen schrieb: Looking at the submission numbers from http://popcon.debian.org/>, I am happy to report that the number of Etch installations is increasing fast. Here are the number of submissions collected by popularity-contest, with the increment. It is easy to see when Etch was released. date submissions change 2007-04-03 32311 +55 2007-04-04 32400 +89 2007-04-05 32504+104 2007-04-06 32525 +21 2007-04-07 32595 +70 2007-04-08 32722+127 2007-04-09 33639+917 2007-04-10 34530+891 2007-04-11 35420+890 Now I just wonder how long the rate of increase will keep up. :) This is the current architecture distribution. 2 0.01% i486 2 0.01% kfreebsd-amd64 3 0.01% hurd-i386 3 0.01% ppc64 7 0.02% armel 9 0.03% armeb 9 0.03% s390 9 0.03% kfreebsd-i386 11 0.03% m68k 22 0.06% mips 41 0.12% ia64 44 0.13% hppa 52 0.15% alpha 53 0.15% mipsel 171 0.49% sparc 448 1.27% powerpc 615 1.75% arm 4279 12.16% amd64 29417 83.58% i386 35197 100.00% total (ignored 223 without arch info) Friendly, Is that only for stable? Me for example uses a february testing, and I might not be alone Greetings, Sebastian Mach [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of "unsubscribe". Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
