Re: Where are translated man pages packaged?
On Sat, May 17, 2003 at 07:05:10PM +0200, Martin Schulze wrote: Denis Barbier wrote: Hi, There is currently no consensus whether translated man pages should be shipped along with original man pages or within manpages-xx packages. The general rule is that manpages-$lang contains translated manual pages from the manpages (upstream name: man-pages) package, i.e. libc, general and kernel manpages. However, translation upstream make exceptions so section 1 pages are included as well. Hence, translations of manual pages from non-manpages packages should go into the package in question in general and not into the manpages-foo package. There seems to be a consensus for this solution. Unfortunately this leads to conflicts when a translation is first shipped by the latter, then incorporated into the former (e.g. when it becomes part of upstream tarball). Simply disable it from the manpages-foo package. That's already done with the manpages package (read: check how it's done) in Debian as well, since it ships some manual pages that are also present in other packages and Debian considered the other ones more appropriate. I have something similar for manpages-fr, but it is done automatically since I am lazy ;) No offense in mind, but could you please update the manpages package? Even if many translations in manpages-fr are outdated, few are newer than their original; when man pages have been renamed (e.g. ttys-ttyS, I do not remember if there are others) this is very confusing. Denis
Re: Where are translated man pages packaged?
On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 10:02:18PM +0200, Fabio Massimo Di Nitto wrote: On Fri, 16 May 2003, Keegan Quinn wrote: On Friday 16 May 2003 11:45 am, Fabio Massimo Di Nitto wrote: On Fri, 16 May 2003, Keegan Quinn wrote: more than once i had to install small dns servers on boxes with less than 100Mb flash and stuff like that... so basically also the minimal installation has to be tight.. then rm doc and man and after install the minimum sets of pkgs to provide the services. Please do not try to force this methodology upon the standard Debian base system. Administrators of embedded systems have many tools to deal with these problems already, that do not require ever unpacking the full base onto the target. sorry but i can hardly read from the previous post that i am trying to force something to someone. I guess this is just a misunderstanding. Perhaps the word 'force' was a bit harsh, but it's essentially how it works for an end-user. It seemed to me that you were suggesting that the standard installer should be optimized for embedded systems, which does not sound like a very good idea. These systems have many specialized needs which cannot be easily accounted for. No i was not suggesting either. I was just explaining why i would like to avoid to get a bigger base system and giving out one of the reason. it was an example, no more no less. anyway no big deal ;) Ok, so, it wouldn't hurt anyone if all translated man pages were along the original one, or did I miss something again ? Thanks, Mt. -- Dans la france profonde, il y a surtout des spéléologues. -- Le Chat
Re: Where are translated man pages packaged?
Denis Barbier wrote: Hi, There is currently no consensus whether translated man pages should be shipped along with original man pages or within manpages-xx packages. The general rule is that manpages-$lang contains translated manual pages from the manpages (upstream name: man-pages) package, i.e. libc, general and kernel manpages. However, translation upstream make exceptions so section 1 pages are included as well. Hence, translations of manual pages from non-manpages packages should go into the package in question in general and not into the manpages-foo package. Unfortunately this leads to conflicts when a translation is first shipped by the latter, then incorporated into the former (e.g. when it becomes part of upstream tarball). Simply disable it from the manpages-foo package. That's already done with the manpages package (read: check how it's done) in Debian as well, since it ships some manual pages that are also present in other packages and Debian considered the other ones more appropriate. Some developers are reluctant to include French translated man pages and ask me to ship them in manpages-fr. How can I make them change their mind? Is there a consensus that translated man pages must go with original man pages? Are exceptions needed for some packages? I'd say that if the maintainer doesn't want to clutter his package with non-english manpages that aren't supported by upstream, manpages-foo is a better place than /dev/null. Alternatively you could start manpages-foo-debian or something similar if you're about to collect a whole bunch of manpages that can't be included in the Debian package the original manpage is in. Regards, Joey -- Let's call it an accidental feature. -- Larry Wall Please always Cc to me when replying to me on the lists.
Re: Where are translated man pages packaged?
On Thu, 15 May 2003, Wouter Verhelst wrote: When grabbing old mails, I found an answer from a developer who told me that his package is part of base and thus he wants to keep it small. Is this indeed an important issue? I'd say yes; but those packages will not usually be uninstalled, so I see it as no problem to put manpages for packages in base in a manpages-xx package. I agree with Wouter. For me would be an issue having the base system bigger than it is now. Specially preparing very small black box where i need to save as much space as i can even during the installation phase. Fabio (Denis this is nothing against translation.. just a matter of space ;)) -- Our mission: make IPv6 the default IP protocol We are on a mission from God - Elwood Blues http://www.itojun.org/paper/itojun-nanog-200210-ipv6isp/mgp4.html
Re: Where are translated man pages packaged?
On Fri, May 16, 2003 at 07:09:00AM +0200, Fabio Massimo Di Nitto wrote: On Thu, 15 May 2003, Wouter Verhelst wrote: [restored attribution you snipped ...] On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 05:48:15PM +0200, Denis Barbier wrote: When grabbing old mails, I found an answer from a developer who told me that his package is part of base and thus he wants to keep it small. Is this indeed an important issue? I'd say yes; but those packages will not usually be uninstalled, so I see it as no problem to put manpages for packages in base in a manpages-xx package. I agree with Wouter. For me would be an issue having the base system bigger than it is now. Specially preparing very small black box where i need to save as much space as i can even during the installation phase. Can't you basically just 'rm -rf /usr/share/doc /usr/share/man' if you're tight on space? -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Where are translated man pages packaged?
On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 11:24:14AM +0200, Denis Barbier wrote: Hi, There is currently no consensus whether translated man pages should be shipped along with original man pages or within manpages-xx packages. Unfortunately this leads to conflicts when a translation is first shipped by the latter, then incorporated into the former (e.g. when it becomes part of upstream tarball). Some developers are reluctant to include French translated man pages and ask me to ship them in manpages-fr. How can I make them change their mind? Is there a consensus that translated man pages must go with original man pages? Are exceptions needed for some packages? I would say that the manpages-XX should disappear as source packages, and all manpages-XX bin packages should be generated from the same source package. That way, it would be really easier to check if the translations are uptodate or not. Alioth can be very useful to base a group in charge of maintaining this package. To answer your question, I would say that translated manpages have to be in the same package than the original one when possible. Concerning packages in base, where space is a concern, as far as dpkg cannot handle properly translations (ie, until sarge+12 :) they can be placed in the manpages-XXX packages. But that's only my opinion, Mt. -- Tout dormeur a en lui un lève tard qui sommeil.
Re: Where are translated man pages packaged?
On Fri, 16 May 2003, Colin Watson wrote: I agree with Wouter. For me would be an issue having the base system bigger than it is now. Specially preparing very small black box where i need to save as much space as i can even during the installation phase. Can't you basically just 'rm -rf /usr/share/doc /usr/share/man' if you're tight on space? Of course... but also during the installation? I don't mind at all cleaning up after... but during is a bit of a pain.. more than once i had to install small dns servers on boxes with less than 100Mb flash and stuff like that... so basically also the minimal installation has to be tight.. then rm doc and man and after install the minimum sets of pkgs to provide the services. Fabio -- Our mission: make IPv6 the default IP protocol We are on a mission from God - Elwood Blues http://www.itojun.org/paper/itojun-nanog-200210-ipv6isp/mgp4.html
Re: Where are translated man pages packaged?
On Friday 16 May 2003 01:07 am, Fabio Massimo Di Nitto wrote: On Fri, 16 May 2003, Colin Watson wrote: I agree with Wouter. For me would be an issue having the base system bigger than it is now. Specially preparing very small black box where i need to save as much space as i can even during the installation phase. Can't you basically just 'rm -rf /usr/share/doc /usr/share/man' if you're tight on space? Of course... but also during the installation? I don't mind at all cleaning up after... but during is a bit of a pain.. more than once i had to install small dns servers on boxes with less than 100Mb flash and stuff like that... so basically also the minimal installation has to be tight.. then rm doc and man and after install the minimum sets of pkgs to provide the services. Please do not try to force this methodology upon the standard Debian base system. Administrators of embedded systems have many tools to deal with these problems already, that do not require ever unpacking the full base onto the target. - Keegan
Re: Where are translated man pages packaged?
On Fri, 16 May 2003, Keegan Quinn wrote: more than once i had to install small dns servers on boxes with less than 100Mb flash and stuff like that... so basically also the minimal installation has to be tight.. then rm doc and man and after install the minimum sets of pkgs to provide the services. Please do not try to force this methodology upon the standard Debian base system. Administrators of embedded systems have many tools to deal with these problems already, that do not require ever unpacking the full base onto the target. sorry but i can hardly read from the previous post that i am trying to force something to someone. I guess this is just a misunderstanding. Fabio -- Our mission: make IPv6 the default IP protocol We are on a mission from God - Elwood Blues http://www.itojun.org/paper/itojun-nanog-200210-ipv6isp/mgp4.html
Re: Where are translated man pages packaged?
On Friday 16 May 2003 11:45 am, Fabio Massimo Di Nitto wrote: On Fri, 16 May 2003, Keegan Quinn wrote: more than once i had to install small dns servers on boxes with less than 100Mb flash and stuff like that... so basically also the minimal installation has to be tight.. then rm doc and man and after install the minimum sets of pkgs to provide the services. Please do not try to force this methodology upon the standard Debian base system. Administrators of embedded systems have many tools to deal with these problems already, that do not require ever unpacking the full base onto the target. sorry but i can hardly read from the previous post that i am trying to force something to someone. I guess this is just a misunderstanding. Perhaps the word 'force' was a bit harsh, but it's essentially how it works for an end-user. It seemed to me that you were suggesting that the standard installer should be optimized for embedded systems, which does not sound like a very good idea. These systems have many specialized needs which cannot be easily accounted for. - Keegan
Re: Where are translated man pages packaged?
On Friday 16 May 2003 12:13 pm, Keegan Quinn wrote: On Friday 16 May 2003 11:45 am, Fabio Massimo Di Nitto wrote: On Fri, 16 May 2003, Keegan Quinn wrote: more than once i had to install small dns servers on boxes with less than 100Mb flash and stuff like that... so basically also the minimal installation has to be tight.. then rm doc and man and after install the minimum sets of pkgs to provide the services. Please do not try to force this methodology upon the standard Debian base system. Administrators of embedded systems have many tools to deal with these problems already, that do not require ever unpacking the full base onto the target. sorry but i can hardly read from the previous post that i am trying to force something to someone. I guess this is just a misunderstanding. Perhaps the word 'force' was a bit harsh, but it's essentially how it works for an end-user. It seemed to me that you were suggesting that the standard installer should be optimized for embedded systems, which does not sound like a very good idea. These systems have many specialized needs which cannot be easily accounted for. Although, in retrospect, I wouldn't object at all to a different installer which is actually designed for embedded systems. :) I'm not sure if work is being done along these lines or not. - Keegan
Re: Where are translated man pages packaged?
On Fri, 16 May 2003, Keegan Quinn wrote: On Friday 16 May 2003 11:45 am, Fabio Massimo Di Nitto wrote: On Fri, 16 May 2003, Keegan Quinn wrote: more than once i had to install small dns servers on boxes with less than 100Mb flash and stuff like that... so basically also the minimal installation has to be tight.. then rm doc and man and after install the minimum sets of pkgs to provide the services. Please do not try to force this methodology upon the standard Debian base system. Administrators of embedded systems have many tools to deal with these problems already, that do not require ever unpacking the full base onto the target. sorry but i can hardly read from the previous post that i am trying to force something to someone. I guess this is just a misunderstanding. Perhaps the word 'force' was a bit harsh, but it's essentially how it works for an end-user. It seemed to me that you were suggesting that the standard installer should be optimized for embedded systems, which does not sound like a very good idea. These systems have many specialized needs which cannot be easily accounted for. No i was not suggesting either. I was just explaining why i would like to avoid to get a bigger base system and giving out one of the reason. it was an example, no more no less. anyway no big deal ;) Fabio -- Our mission: make IPv6 the default IP protocol We are on a mission from God - Elwood Blues http://www.itojun.org/paper/itojun-nanog-200210-ipv6isp/mgp4.html
Re: Where are translated man pages packaged?
On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 11:24:14AM +0200, Denis Barbier wrote: Hi, There is currently no consensus whether translated man pages should be shipped along with original man pages or within manpages-xx packages. Unfortunately this leads to conflicts when a translation is first shipped by the latter, then incorporated into the former (e.g. when it becomes part of upstream tarball). Some developers are reluctant to include French translated man pages and ask me to ship them in manpages-fr. How can I make them change their mind? Is there a consensus that translated man pages must go with original man pages? Are exceptions needed for some packages? As the new maintainer of manpages-nl... I'd say, and so did Joost Van Baal, the previous maintainer, that translated manpages belong with the original. This way, it's easier to keep track of changes, manpages don't take up space documenting programs or -dev library packages that aren't installed, and, most importantly: people that don't know about the manpages-xx package will get the translated manpages if they set their $LANG, since it's with the 'normal' package. People that set their $LANG will probably prefer that anyway. With regard to those conflicting pages: that's just temporary; once manpages have been incorporated in the right package, one can easily remove the manpage from the manpages-xx package, and upload a new package. -- Debian GNU/Linux -- http://www.debian.org Nederlandstalige Linux-documentatie -- http://nl.linux.org An expert can usually spot the difference between a fake charge and a full one, but there are plenty of dead experts. -- National Geographic Channel, in a documentary about large African beasts. pgpEdp39Uc05y.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Where are translated man pages packaged?
On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 11:24:14AM +0200, Denis Barbier wrote: There is currently no consensus whether translated man pages should be shipped along with original man pages or within manpages-xx packages. Unfortunately this leads to conflicts when a translation is first shipped by the latter, then incorporated into the former (e.g. when it becomes part of upstream tarball). Some developers are reluctant to include French translated man pages and ask me to ship them in manpages-fr. How can I make them change their mind? Is there a consensus that translated man pages must go with original man pages? Are exceptions needed for some packages? I think it is proper to include translated man pages with original man pages, and to use apt-localepurge (now) or dpkg exclusions (when they're implemented) if people are worried about space. My gut feeling is that the manpages-LL packages should cover roughly the same topics as the English manpages package. My experience has been that refusing to include translated man pages makes it much harder to tell when the man pages have got out of date. However, I'm not sure how to go about persuading reluctant developers of this. -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Where are translated man pages packaged?
On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 11:09:08AM +0100, Colin Watson wrote: I think it is proper to include translated man pages with original man pages, and to use apt-localepurge (now) or dpkg exclusions (when they're implemented) if people are worried about space. My gut feeling is that I believe this was the consensus in the last big translation discussion - where possible translations should be integrated with the package being translated. This has been happening again with Debconf templates, for example. -- You grabbed my hand and we fell into it, like a daydream - or a fever.
Re: Where are translated man pages packaged?
On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 11:09:08AM +0100, Colin Watson wrote: On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 11:24:14AM +0200, Denis Barbier wrote: There is currently no consensus whether translated man pages should be shipped along with original man pages or within manpages-xx packages. Unfortunately this leads to conflicts when a translation is first shipped by the latter, then incorporated into the former (e.g. when it becomes part of upstream tarball). Some developers are reluctant to include French translated man pages and ask me to ship them in manpages-fr. How can I make them change their mind? Is there a consensus that translated man pages must go with original man pages? Are exceptions needed for some packages? I think it is proper to include translated man pages with original man pages, and to use apt-localepurge (now) or dpkg exclusions (when they're implemented) if people are worried about space. My gut feeling is that the manpages-LL packages should cover roughly the same topics as the English manpages package. I fully agree. My experience has been that refusing to include translated man pages makes it much harder to tell when the man pages have got out of date. However, I'm not sure how to go about persuading reluctant developers of this. I know what to do then: flame them here ;) When grabbing old mails, I found an answer from a developer who told me that his package is part of base and thus he wants to keep it small. Is this indeed an important issue? Denis
Re: Where are translated man pages packaged?
On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 05:48:15PM +0200, Denis Barbier wrote: On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 11:09:08AM +0100, Colin Watson wrote: On Thu, May 15, 2003 at 11:24:14AM +0200, Denis Barbier wrote: There is currently no consensus whether translated man pages should be shipped along with original man pages or within manpages-xx packages. Unfortunately this leads to conflicts when a translation is first shipped by the latter, then incorporated into the former (e.g. when it becomes part of upstream tarball). Some developers are reluctant to include French translated man pages and ask me to ship them in manpages-fr. How can I make them change their mind? Is there a consensus that translated man pages must go with original man pages? Are exceptions needed for some packages? I think it is proper to include translated man pages with original man pages, and to use apt-localepurge (now) or dpkg exclusions (when they're implemented) if people are worried about space. My gut feeling is that the manpages-LL packages should cover roughly the same topics as the English manpages package. I fully agree. My experience has been that refusing to include translated man pages makes it much harder to tell when the man pages have got out of date. However, I'm not sure how to go about persuading reluctant developers of this. I know what to do then: flame them here ;) When grabbing old mails, I found an answer from a developer who told me that his package is part of base and thus he wants to keep it small. Is this indeed an important issue? I'd say yes; but those packages will not usually be uninstalled, so I see it as no problem to put manpages for packages in base in a manpages-xx package. -- Debian GNU/Linux -- http://www.debian.org Nederlandstalige Linux-documentatie -- http://nl.linux.org An expert can usually spot the difference between a fake charge and a full one, but there are plenty of dead experts. -- National Geographic Channel, in a documentary about large African beasts. pgpS2fjAgwL4u.pgp Description: PGP signature
