Re: The GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) and /usr/share/common-licenses

2002-04-08 Thread Martin Quinson
On Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 05:57:43PM -0500, Dale Scheetz wrote:
 There are an ever growing number of packages that make use of the GNU Free
 Documentation License. Isn't it about time to put a copy of this license
 into the common reference area?
 
 Who should I talk to about this?

Please check #139437...

Thanks, Mt.

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Re: The GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) and /usr/share/common-licenses

2002-04-08 Thread Colin Watson
On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 12:46:23AM -0700, Martin Quinson wrote:
 On Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 05:57:43PM -0500, Dale Scheetz wrote:
  There are an ever growing number of packages that make use of the GNU Free
  Documentation License. Isn't it about time to put a copy of this license
  into the common reference area?
  
  Who should I talk to about this?
 
 Please check #139437...

... and #79538 and #123074.

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Re: The GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) and /usr/share/common-licenses

2002-04-08 Thread Dale Scheetz
On Sun, 7 Apr 2002, Manoj Srivastava wrote:

   Well, since there are these other issues being raised
  (specificcally, the concern that GFDL may not meet the DFSG [I happen
  to disagree with that statement, for what that counts for]), we
  should wait for the dust to settle down before moving things into an
  area designated for common, free, licenses, don't you think?

Well, if you insist ;-)

Actually, on more reflection, (asside from whether or not the GNU Free
Documentation License is Free) the whole purpose of the common license
area was to reduce the file space consumed by multiple copies of the same
license. Thus if two packages use the license it is cost effective to
place a copy into the common area.

With respect to the freeness of this license. It would be a real shame
for Debian to declare this a non-free license, as much of the GNU
documentation currently making the move to this license would have to go
into non-free...

Waiting is,

Dwarf
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Re: The GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) and /usr/share/common-licenses

2002-04-08 Thread Dale Scheetz
On Sun, 7 Apr 2002, Branden Robinson wrote:

 On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 02:36:28PM -0400, Dale Scheetz wrote:
3. I placed my book under this license with the express understanding
   that it was considered free. Now I'm hearing noise that this is a
   non-free license. While I disagree, that is often irrelevant.
  
4. If we still have no free documentation license. I'm not sure how we
   can make demands for good documentation.
 
 As usual, this issue has been beaten to death on a list you don't read.
 
 Please review the archives of debian-legal for the past several months.
 
 In a nutshell:
 
 1) The current version of the GNU FDL is uncontroversially DFSG-free if
 there are no Cover Texts and no Invariant Sections.  Note that your
 license notice is supposed to indicate the presence or absence of Cover
 Texts and Invariant Sections.
 
 2) The Open Publication License (OPL), is also uncontroversially
 DFSG-free when none of the license options are exercised.

So, in fact, both of these licenses are non-free, as they contain clauses
that can be used, and will be considered non-free.

I find it ... foolish to declare a license to be free IFF some clauses of
the license are not exercised. Using this language, any proprietary
license becomes free as long as none of the proprietary sections are
inforced by the author...

The license is a complete text. It is either free or it isn't. Selective
editing creates a new license that may or may not actually exist.

If this is the kind of logic that is being used on the -legal mailing
list, I'm glad not to expose myself to such nonsense.

Luck,

Dwarf
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_-_-
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Re: The GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) and /usr/share/common-licenses

2002-04-08 Thread Thomas Hood
Dale Scheetz wrote:
 So, in fact, both of these licenses are non-free, as they
 contain clauses that can be used, and will be considered
 non-free.

Your objection is true of the OPL, but RMS argues
http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2001/debian-legal-200111/msg00017.html
that that is not true of the GFDL because The GFDL
says that invariant sections must cover only topics of how
the work relates to the authors or publishers.

 I find it ... foolish to declare a license to be free IFF
 some clauses of the license are not exercised. Using this
 language, any proprietary license becomes free as long as
 none of the proprietary sections are inforced by the author...

These cases are not the same.  A license with unexercised
options is very different from a license with proprietary
clauses (which don't happen to be enforced).

Again, though: Even if the GFDL options are exercised the result
is not a non-free license, but a license reasonably similar to
other free licenses already endorsed Debian.

Although the GFDL differs from the GPL in the way it imposes
liberty-enhancing restrictions, the restrictions seem to me
to be neither excessive nor unclear nor especially vulnerable
to misuse.

 If this is the kind of logic that is being used on the
 -legal mailing list, I'm glad not to expose myself to such
 nonsense.

Let this be a recommendation to others to read the debate
that already took place on debian-devel.
http://lists.debian.org/debian-legal/2001/debian-legal-200111/msg6.html

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Re: The GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) and /usr/share/common-licenses

2002-04-08 Thread Craig Dickson
begin  Dale Scheetz  quotation:

 On Sun, 7 Apr 2002, Branden Robinson wrote:
 
  As usual, this issue has been beaten to death on a list you don't read.
  
  Please review the archives of debian-legal for the past several months.
  
  In a nutshell:
  
  1) The current version of the GNU FDL is uncontroversially DFSG-free if
  there are no Cover Texts and no Invariant Sections.  Note that your
  license notice is supposed to indicate the presence or absence of Cover
  Texts and Invariant Sections.
  
  2) The Open Publication License (OPL), is also uncontroversially
  DFSG-free when none of the license options are exercised.
 
 So, in fact, both of these licenses are non-free, as they contain clauses
 that can be used, and will be considered non-free.

No. Specific optional aspects of the licenses, which are required by the
licenses themselves to be declared in the license notice contained in
the covered document, are non-free. The licenses can be used to make
documents DFSG-free, and I believe DFSG/OPL documents are essentially
DFSG-free by default, since the conflicts arise only when these options
are explicitly invoked by the copyright holder in the license notice.

 I find it ... foolish to declare a license to be free IFF some clauses of
 the license are not exercised. Using this language, any proprietary
 license becomes free as long as none of the proprietary sections are
 inforced by the author...

Let's try this again, as you seem to have misunderstood what Branden
wrote.

If a document is covered by GFDL and contains no Cover Texts or
Invariant Sections, then that document is, according to Branden,
uncontroversially DFSG-free. (I say according to Branden because I
don't read debian-legal either, nor have I taken the time to check the
archives.)

If a document is covered by OPL, and the license notice does not declare
any non-DFSG-free options, then that document is, according to Branden,
uncontroversially DFSG-free.

This has nothing to do with enforcing license terms after the fact, so
your claim that any proprietary license becomes free ... [if] not
[e]nforced by the author is a complete non sequitur. It has, instead,
to do with how the license is applied to the document in the first
place. If a GFDL document has Cover Texts or Invariant Sections, those
sections must be explicitly identified by the copyright holder in the
document's license notice (I believe this is a requirement of the GFDL
itself). If no such sections are identified, then the document is fully
modifiable, and therefore DFSG-free.

Why you find this hard to understand is a bit of a mystery to me.

Craig


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Re: The GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) and /usr/share/common-licenses

2002-04-08 Thread Branden Robinson
On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 01:12:06PM -0400, Dale Scheetz wrote:
 So, in fact, both of these licenses are non-free, as they contain clauses
 that can be used, and will be considered non-free.

It is software that is or is not DFSG-free, not licenses.

The simple fact is, a work licensed under version 1.1 of the GNU FDL
with no Cover Texts and no Invariant Sections is clearly and plainly
DFSG-free.

A work licensed under GNU FDL, version 1.1, which consists entirely of
Invariant Sections either has no license or is wholly unmodifiable.
Most people on debian-legal agree that this renders the work DFSG-free.

You can call the GNU FDL free or non-free due to either or both of
the above.  Which you decide is far less important to Debian than how
the GNU FDL is actually applied to works in real life.

 I find it ... foolish to declare a license to be free IFF some clauses of
 the license are not exercised. Using this language, any proprietary
 license becomes free as long as none of the proprietary sections are
 inforced by the author...

I find it ... surprising that you're unfamiliar with the issues
surrounding the Artistic License and its reasonable copying fee.

Actually, since you usually opine on issues before educating yourself on
them, I'm not surprised.  :)

 The license is a complete text. It is either free or it isn't.

Under that logic, the GNU GPL is non-free because it is not a modifiable
document.

Debian, however, takes a pragmatic approach to license documents; we
care about licenses only insofar as they apply to actual software that
we package.  We also care about licenses as they are enforced by the
copyright holder, not about how they could have been exercised by the
copyright holder.

That said, Debian does occasionally serve to act in an advisory capacity
to people seeking to adopt license terms that express their desires
clearly.

 Selective editing creates a new license that may or may not actually
 exist.

*shrug*  Then your beef is with the people who author such licenses.
The GNU FDL and OPL both have optional parts that the copyright holder
can elect not to exercise.

For that matter, the GNU GPL does too.  You can always add a rider to
the license, for instance by permitting your work to link against an old
version of the Qt library.

 If this is the kind of logic that is being used on the -legal mailing
 list, I'm glad not to expose myself to such nonsense.

If this is the kind of logic you're going to try to bring to -legal,
perhaps the list is better off without your participation.

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Re: The GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) and /usr/share/common-licenses

2002-04-08 Thread Alan Shutko
Dale Scheetz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 I find it ... foolish to declare a license to be free IFF some clauses of
 the license are not exercised. Using this language, any proprietary
 license becomes free as long as none of the proprietary sections are
 inforced by the author...

 The license is a complete text. It is either free or it isn't. Selective
 editing creates a new license that may or may not actually exist.

No, that's not the case.  Any options are chosen by the author at the
time of licensing the work.  It's not a matter of enforcement, it's a
matter of choosing what variant of the license to use on a specific
piece of documentation.

This may mean that piece of documentation using the FDL with certain
options may not be free, and that a piece of documentation using the
FDL with different options may be free.  Think of the FDL as a
meta-license, and specific instances as used in packages as the real
license.

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Re: The GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) and /usr/share/common-licenses

2002-04-08 Thread Josselin Mouette
Le lun 08/04/2002 à 19:12, Dale Scheetz a écrit :

 So, in fact, both of these licenses are non-free, as they contain
 clauses that can be used, and will be considered non-free.

 I find it ... foolish to declare a license to be free IFF some clauses of
 the license are not exercised. Using this language, any proprietary
 license becomes free as long as none of the proprietary sections are
 inforced by the author...

So, you mean that the license allows that, after being modified, the
document can become non-free.

Using the same logic, the BSD license is non-free too.

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Re: The GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) and /usr/share/common-licenses

2002-04-08 Thread Jamie Wilkinson
This one time, at band camp, Dale Scheetz wrote:
So, in fact, both of these licenses are non-free, as they contain clauses
that can be used, and will be considered non-free.

I find it ... foolish to declare a license to be free IFF some clauses of
the license are not exercised. Using this language, any proprietary
license becomes free as long as none of the proprietary sections are
inforced by the author...

So you have never checked your packages to make sure that the code within is
all above board and licensed under the license it says it is?

When a particular instance of a license can be considered free by our
standards, why should we place a blanket rejection on all possible
permutations of that license?  We, as developers, should be able to
recognise the difference between a document with and without invariant
sections, and identify the documentation as non-free or free respectively
under our current set of guidelines.

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Re: The GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) and /usr/share/common-licenses

2002-04-08 Thread Branden Robinson
On Mon, Apr 08, 2002 at 02:50:21PM -0500, Branden Robinson wrote:
 A work licensed under GNU FDL, version 1.1, which consists entirely of
 Invariant Sections either has no license or is wholly unmodifiable.
 Most people on debian-legal agree that this renders the work DFSG-free.
   ^

Hrm.  DFSG-*non*free, that is.  :)

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Re: The GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) and /usr/share/common-licenses

2002-04-07 Thread Federico Di Gregorio
Il dom, 2002-04-07 alle 05:06, Joseph Carter ha scritto:
 On Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 05:57:43PM -0500, Dale Scheetz wrote:
  There are an ever growing number of packages that make use of the GNU Free
  Documentation License. Isn't it about time to put a copy of this license
  into the common reference area?
  
  Who should I talk to about this?
 
 Why put a blatantly non-free license in the common licenses directory?
but
because it seems a blatantly non-free _software_ license but maybe it is
a blatantly free _documentation_ license :)

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Re: The GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) and /usr/share/common-licenses

2002-04-07 Thread Dale Scheetz
On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, Manoj Srivastava wrote:

 Dale == Dale Scheetz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  Dale There are an ever growing number of packages that make use of
  Dale the GNU Free Documentation License. Isn't it about time to put
  Dale a copy of this license into the common reference area?
 
   Depends. Would you say that at least 1% of Debian packages use
  a license before it be deemed ``common''? How many packages use this
  license, then? 

I can't answer any of your questions ;-)

What I do know is:

  1. The GFDL is a published license of the FSF, intended for use by
 documentation.

  2. The documentation provided by gmp-4.0.1 is now GFDL. This indicates a
 move by GNU to use this license more broadly.

  3. I placed my book under this license with the express understanding
 that it was considered free. Now I'm hearing noise that this is a
 non-free license. While I disagree, that is often irrelevant.

  4. If we still have no free documentation license. I'm not sure how we
 can make demands for good documentation.

Luck,

Dwarf
-- 
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_-_-
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Re: The GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) and /usr/share/common-licenses

2002-04-07 Thread Dale Scheetz
On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, Joseph Carter wrote:

 On Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 05:57:43PM -0500, Dale Scheetz wrote:
  There are an ever growing number of packages that make use of the GNU Free
  Documentation License. Isn't it about time to put a copy of this license
  into the common reference area?
  
  Who should I talk to about this?
 
 Why put a blatantly non-free license in the common licenses directory?

You clearly have an opinion on this issue ;-)

I suppose this stems from the invarient section clause in the GFDL?

While this declaration is broader than the same feature in the GPL, I
don't see the problem.

The GPL allows the license and the copyright statements to be both
required, and invarient. The GFDL simply recognizes that documents often
have historical, philosophical, or political statements that should, yes
need, to be protected from modification. These sections, such as the
history section of my book, writen by Ian M., deserve protection if truely
free speech is to continue to be protected. The technical material can
then be left modifiable as is needed and useful to such matherial.

What would be a more suitable Free Documentation License in your view?

Waiting is,

Dwarf
-- 
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_-_-
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Re: The GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) and /usr/share/common-licenses

2002-04-07 Thread Manoj Srivastava
Dale == Dale Scheetz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Dale On Sat, 6 Apr 2002, Manoj Srivastava wrote:
  Dale == Dale Scheetz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Dale There are an ever growing number of packages that make use of
 Dale the GNU Free Documentation License. Isn't it about time to put
 Dale a copy of this license into the common reference area?

  Depends. Would you say that at least 1% of Debian packages use
  a license before it be deemed ``common''? How many packages use this
  license, then? 

 Dale I can't answer any of your questions ;-)

Well, since there are these other issues being raised
 (specificcally, the concern that GFDL may not meet the DFSG [I happen
 to disagree with that statement, for what that counts for]), we
 should wait for the dust to settle down before moving things into an
 area designated for common, free, licenses, don't you think?

manoj
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Re: The GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) and /usr/share/common-licenses

2002-04-07 Thread Joseph Carter
On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 03:00:37PM -0400, Dale Scheetz wrote:
   There are an ever growing number of packages that make use of the GNU Free
   Documentation License. Isn't it about time to put a copy of this license
   into the common reference area?
   
   Who should I talk to about this?
  
  Why put a blatantly non-free license in the common licenses directory?
 
 You clearly have an opinion on this issue ;-)
 
 I suppose this stems from the invarient section clause in the GFDL?

I'm more concerned with the additional publisher requirements.  They have
been relaxed a little with 1.1 and reworded slightly in the draft for
1.2, but I feel it's still a problem.

I don't like the invariant sections much, but the draft of 1.2 seems to
resolve the major concerns I had.


 While this declaration is broader than the same feature in the GPL, I
 don't see the problem.
 
 The GPL allows the license and the copyright statements to be both
 required, and invarient. The GFDL simply recognizes that documents often
 have historical, philosophical, or political statements that should, yes
 need, to be protected from modification. These sections, such as the
 history section of my book, writen by Ian M., deserve protection if truely
 free speech is to continue to be protected. The technical material can
 then be left modifiable as is needed and useful to such matherial.

History reads as ChangeLog in most programs and is not invariant, but
AFAIK it can be cut off at a certain point for brevity if you like.


 What would be a more suitable Free Documentation License in your view?

I would certainly be less eager to argue over the 1.2 version if the FDL
when it's released since it applies a sanity check to section 3 and
clarifies a little the named sections which may deserve special treatment.

-- 
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Knghtbrd Overfiend - BTW, after we've discovered X takes all of 1.4 GIGS
   to build, are you willing admit that X is bloatware?  =
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Re: The GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) and /usr/share/common-licenses

2002-04-07 Thread Branden Robinson
On Sun, Apr 07, 2002 at 02:36:28PM -0400, Dale Scheetz wrote:
   3. I placed my book under this license with the express understanding
  that it was considered free. Now I'm hearing noise that this is a
  non-free license. While I disagree, that is often irrelevant.
 
   4. If we still have no free documentation license. I'm not sure how we
  can make demands for good documentation.

As usual, this issue has been beaten to death on a list you don't read.

Please review the archives of debian-legal for the past several months.

In a nutshell:

1) The current version of the GNU FDL is uncontroversially DFSG-free if
there are no Cover Texts and no Invariant Sections.  Note that your
license notice is supposed to indicate the presence or absence of Cover
Texts and Invariant Sections.

2) The Open Publication License (OPL), is also uncontroversially
DFSG-free when none of the license options are exercised.

Read the archives of debian-legal for supporting references.

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The GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) and /usr/share/common-licenses

2002-04-06 Thread Dale Scheetz
There are an ever growing number of packages that make use of the GNU Free
Documentation License. Isn't it about time to put a copy of this license
into the common reference area?

Who should I talk to about this?

Waiting is,

Dwarf
-- 
_-_-_-_-_-   Author of Dwarf's Guide to Debian GNU/Linux  _-_-_-_-_-_-
_-_-
_- aka   Dale Scheetz   Phone:   1 (850) 656-9769 _-
_-   Flexible Software  11000 McCrackin Road  _-
_-   e-mail:  [EMAIL PROTECTED] Tallahassee, FL  32308_-
_-_-
_-_-_-_-_-  Released under the GNU Free Documentation License   _-_-_-_-
  available at: http://www.polaris.net/~dwarf/


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Re: The GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) and /usr/share/common-licenses

2002-04-06 Thread Richard Braakman
On Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 05:57:43PM -0500, Dale Scheetz wrote:
 There are an ever growing number of packages that make use of the GNU Free
 Documentation License. Isn't it about time to put a copy of this license
 into the common reference area?

No, it would be premature.  There's a draft for a new version up for
review at the FSF site.

There's also a still-open discussion about whether the GFDL is free
enough for Debian if Invariant Sections are used.

Richard Braakman


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Re: The GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) and /usr/share/common-licenses

2002-04-06 Thread Joseph Carter
On Sat, Apr 06, 2002 at 05:57:43PM -0500, Dale Scheetz wrote:
 There are an ever growing number of packages that make use of the GNU Free
 Documentation License. Isn't it about time to put a copy of this license
 into the common reference area?
 
 Who should I talk to about this?

Why put a blatantly non-free license in the common licenses directory?

-- 
Joseph Carter [EMAIL PROTECTED]  glDisable (DX8_CRAP);
 
doogie cat /dev/random | perl ?
shaleh doogie: it is also a valid sendmail.cf
doogie :)
* knghtbrd hands doogie a senseless-use-of-cat award
* shaleh wants to try it but is afraid



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Re: The GNU Free Documentation License (GFDL) and /usr/share/common-licenses

2002-04-06 Thread Manoj Srivastava
Dale == Dale Scheetz [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 Dale There are an ever growing number of packages that make use of
 Dale the GNU Free Documentation License. Isn't it about time to put
 Dale a copy of this license into the common reference area?

Depends. Would you say that at least 1% of Debian packages use
 a license before it be deemed ``common''? How many packages use this
 license, then? 

manoj
-- 
 I never forget a face, but in your case I'll make an
 exception. Groucho Marx
Manoj Srivastava   [EMAIL PROTECTED]  http://www.debian.org/%7Esrivasta/
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1024D/BF24424C print 4966 F272 D093 B493 410B  924B 21BA DABB BF24 424C


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