Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Russ Allbery]

Gunnar Wolf  writes:

> Ok. Lintian does not yet like httpd as a section, but I guess you will
> not reject an upload just because I listened to you ;-)

Lintian is waiting for the d-d-a post saying that the new section changes
have been implemented, FWIW.

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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Gunnar Wolf]

Hi,

Joerg Jaspert dijo [Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 09:07:35PM +0100]:
> As Lenny is finally released, and we are early in the cycle for squeeze,
> now is the best time to do some long-needed changes to our archive.
> Much of what we are currently doing is not visible to you as a user of
> this archive, but the action we talk about now is:
> 
> We plan on changing the current sections in the archive. With the rapid
> growth of archive, many of them have become too big to be useful anymore.
> (...)
> httpd
> (...)
> cherokee*
> libcherokee*

Ok. Lintian does not yet like httpd as a section, but I guess you will
not reject an upload just because I listened to you ;-)

However, cherokee does include some -dev packages, which Lintian (IMHO
correctly) marks as they should belong to libdevel (where they are
now). Please confirm whether I should disregard this and put
libcherokee*-dev also in httpd (or am I being too literal in my
reading). 

Thanks,

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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Samuel Thibault]

Hello,

Joerg Jaspert, le Fri 27 Feb 2009 09:02:11 +0100, a écrit :
> > Maybe it could be interesting to open an accessibility section?
> 
> Maybe, maybe not. What packages would you put into it?

Just a quick rough list (90 bin packages):

accerciser
at-spi
at-spi-doc
big-cursor
brltty
brltty-flite
brltty-x11
cellwriter
clara
dasher
edbrowse
eflite
emacspeak
emacspeak-ss
epos
espeak-data
festival
festival-doc
festival-freebsoft-utils
festival-hi
festival-mr
festival-te
festlex-cmu
festlex-ifd
festlex-oald
festlex-poslex
festvox-czech-ph
festvox-don
festvox-ellpc11k
festvox-hi-nsk
festvox-italp16k
festvox-itapc16k
festvox-kallpc16k
festvox-kallpc8k
festvox-kdlpc16k
festvox-kdlpc8k
festvox-mr-nsk
festvox-rablpc16k
festvox-rablpc8k
festvox-suopuhe-common
festvox-suopuhe-lj
festvox-suopuhe-mv
festvox-te-nsk
flite
gnome-accessibility-themes
gnome-mag
gnome-orca
gnome-speech-swift
gocr
gocr-tk
gok
gok-doc
hocr-gtk
kdeaccessibility
kmag
kmousetool
kmouth
kttsd
kttsd-contrib-plugins
mousetweaks
mozilla-mozgest
recite
saydate
saytime
screader
speakup-doc
speechd-el
speechd-el-doc-cs
speech-dispatcher
speech-dispatcher-doc-cs
speech-dispatcher-festival
speech-tools
speech-tools-doc
sphinx2-bin
sphinx2-hmm-6k
stardict-plugin-espeak
tesseract-ocr
tesseract-ocr-deu
tesseract-ocr-deu-f
tesseract-ocr-eng
tesseract-ocr-fra
tesseract-ocr-ita
tesseract-ocr-nld
tesseract-ocr-por
tesseract-ocr-spa
ttf-ocr-a
wayv
xvkbd
xzoom
yasr

I probably forget a lot more, it's hard to track them as there is no
naming scheme at all.

Plus a few packages which I intend to package sooner or later (~20 bin
packages):
mousetrap
mbrola*
cicero
trf
liblouis-bin
liblouisxml-bin
xml2brl

Samuel


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive (deborphan)

[Carsten Hey]

On Sun, Mar 01, 2009 at 10:14:34AM +0100, Bernhard R. Link wrote:
> * Carsten Hey  [090228 19:21]:
> > > It shouldn't be anything harder than adding 'deprecated'
> > > (non-library, deprecated software) to complement oldlibs,
> >
> > Adding non-library packages to oldlibs would cause these to be
> > handled like a library by deborphan and thus possibly being falsely
> > displayed as orphaned libraries.  Since people tend to run aptitude
> > purge `deborphan` in loops [1] or use similar constructs I saw in
> > the past this would lead to unintended package removals.
>
> I think the "unintended package removal" depends mostly on what is
> actually put in oldlibs or a new deprecated section.

Yes, exactly.  What will be in the deprecated section is not that
important since deborphan can be accordingly adapted and until this is
done no package from this section is detected as orphan per default.

> There have been non-library packages in oldlibs, for example
> shellutils and other transitional packages.

Transitional or dummy packages that are removed will not cause a RC bug
but they are no libraries and thus actually do not belong to oldlibs.
There is as far as I know no official description of what packages
belong to which section so we should use the obvious definition implied
by the name of the sections.

> For those deborphans behaviour of removing the package once no longer
> something depends on them was exactly the right thing.

In case of fileutils, textutils and shellutils one justification to move
them to oldlibs was that deborphan would list them by default, this may
be appropriate in carefully selected cases.

> Thus I think the issue are not non-library packages, but packages that
> supply user-visible functionality.

There is no issue at all unless packages which should not be listed are
(temporary) moved to oldlibs, which nobody planned.  Enrico only
suggested to put them directly to deprecated and then move the packages
from oldlibs to deprecated, which would be ok.

I only did mention what would happen if this is done in an other
sequence to ensure that everybody involved in the upcoming section
changes is aware of this possible serious consequences.

> If the new deprecated section would have the requirement that packages
> to be put there should not cause significant[1] user visible changes,
> then everything would be ok.

With these requirements deprecated could really be handled like oldlibs
but until now I did not have the impression that this is planned.  This
would also imply that no old, rarely used and unsupported mail user
agent or web server could be part of deprecated at any time, actually no
package including a file in {/usr,}/{s,}bin.


Regards
Carsten


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive (deborphan)

[Bernhard R. Link]

* Carsten Hey  [090228 19:21]:
> > It shouldn't be anything harder than adding 'deprecated'
> > (non-library, deprecated software) to complement oldlibs,
>
> Adding non-library packages to oldlibs would cause these to be handled
> like a library by deborphan and thus possibly being falsely displayed as
> orphaned libraries.  Since people tend to run aptitude purge `deborphan`
> in loops [1] or use similar constructs I saw in the past this would lead
> to unintended package removals.

I think the "unintended package removal" depends mostly on what is
actually put in oldlibs or a new deprecated section.

There have been non-library packages in oldlibs, for example shellutils
and other transitional packages. For those deborphans behaviour of
removing the package once no longer something depends on them was
exactly the right thing.

Thus I think the issue are not non-library packages, but packages that
supply user-visible functionality. If the new deprecated section would
have the requirement that packages to be put there should not cause
significant[1] user visible changes, then everything would be ok.

Hochachtungsvoll,
Bernhard R. Link

[1] Of course defining "significant" is the problem here. As one can
have user-compiled programs dynamically linked against old libraries,
asking for only empty transition packages makes no sense.
I'd for example argue that a deprecated/transitional package just offering
a wrapper for the new program whould be equally allowed to be removed in
this way once there are no more package dependencies...


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Axel Beckert]

Hi,

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 10:59:27AM +, Enrico Zini wrote:
> I propose 'oldlibs' to be renamed to 'deprecated'.
> 
> That would also fit, for example, packages abandoned upstream, or
> packages that have a better alternative, but that still have users.

I would expect to have so called transitional or dummy packages which
pull in renamed packages or packages which have been replaced, in such
a section, too.

Regards, Axel
-- 
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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive (deborphan)

[Carsten Hey]

On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 01:03:39PM +0100, Enrico Zini wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 10:03:55PM -0800, Steve Langasek wrote:
> > There are tools that understand the special meaning of the 'oldlibs'
> > section and treat it specially; at least deborphan comes to mind,
> > there may be others.  I don't see the necessity for such a section
> > rename,

Actually he also talks about adding deprecated non-library packages, so
this is more than just a "section rename".

> > but if it happens I think it needs to be announced in advance and
> > coordinated.

Per default deborphan assumes that libraries are in libs or oldlibs.
This is necessary to find orphaned libraries but prevent packages like
libpam* or libapache* to be displayed as orphans.  The upcoming section
changes will break this assumption and thus there will be many false
negatives (orphaned libraries that are not found anymore) until large
parts of deborphan have been adapted or rewritten.

In comparison to the other proposed changes the removal of oldlibs is
only a minor issue for deborphan.  With my deborphan upstream/maintainer
hat on:  Given that no non-library packages will be added to oldlibs,
and this change happens at the same time as the other section changes,
the removal of oldlibs is ok for me and I do not feel the need to
further coordinate this.  Additionally no non-library packages must be
added to libs or libdevel at any time, I guess nobody had such plans
anyway.

> It shouldn't be anything harder than adding 'deprecated'
> (non-library, deprecated software) to complement oldlibs,

Adding non-library packages to oldlibs would cause these to be handled
like a library by deborphan and thus possibly being falsely displayed as
orphaned libraries.  Since people tend to run aptitude purge `deborphan`
in loops [1] or use similar constructs I saw in the past this would lead
to unintended package removals.

> ask tools to treat them equally,

The two sections are not exactly equal and handling them equal would be
wrong (see above).

> and when we're satisfied that they do, just get rid of oldlibs.

No, deborphan will be adapted after all section related changes in the
archive are done.  Ad interim, conservative defaults and algorithms in
deborphan ensure that additional or missing sections do not cause false
positives.

Deborphan will support both section layouts until the next change
related to sections happens, at least unless the new section layout will
be messed up in a, from the viewpoint of deborphan, non-backwards
compatible way.


Regards
Carsten

[1] http://debaday.debian.net/2007/10/21/deborphan-find-packages-you-dont-want/


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Enrico Zini]

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 10:03:55PM -0800, Steve Langasek wrote:

> There are tools that understand the special meaning of the 'oldlibs' section
> and treat it specially; at least deborphan comes to mind, there may be
> others.  I don't see the necessity for such a section rename, but if it
> happens I think it needs to be announced in advance and coordinated.

Indeed.  It shouldn't be anything harder than adding 'deprecated'
(non-library, deprecated software) to complement oldlibs, ask tools to
treat them equally, and when we're satisfied that they do, just get rid
of oldlibs.


Ciao,

Enrico

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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 09:31:25PM +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> >> Get me a short description for it.
> > "Compiler, libraries, and tools for OCaml: a static typed ML language
> > implementation supporting functional, imperative, and object-oriented
> > programming styles".
> You have an interesting definition of short, i stopped after : for
> now. :)

Eh :-)

> (Its a different thing what packages.d.o will show later, for example,
> but for me the part before the : is more than enough)

FWIW, my source of inspiration was this page
http://packages.debian.org/stable/, where something of the length I
gave you I think can be useful for users, but I'm fine with the
uber-short version too.

Thanks!

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Paul Wise]

On Sat, Feb 28, 2009 at 4:22 PM, Josselin Mouette  wrote:
> Le vendredi 27 février 2009 à 21:40 +0100, Joerg Jaspert a écrit :
>> Select one of cli-mono or ecma-cli and please also get me a short
>> description :)
>
> How about:
>
> cli-mono -- The Common Language Infrastructure, the Mono implementation
>            and packages containing Common Intermediate Language code
>
> Or, if it’s too long:
>
> cli-mono -- Everything about Mono and the Common Language Infrastructure

Hmm, what about other CLI implementations - DotGNU for instance?

ecma-cli -- development tools and libraries for ECMA-335, the Common
Language Infrastructure.

-- 
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pabs

http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Josselin Mouette]

Le vendredi 27 février 2009 à 21:40 +0100, Joerg Jaspert a écrit :
> Select one of cli-mono or ecma-cli and please also get me a short
> description :)

How about:

cli-mono -- The Common Language Infrastructure, the Mono implementation
and packages containing Common Intermediate Language code

Or, if it’s too long:

cli-mono -- Everything about Mono and the Common Language Infrastructure

-- 
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: :' :
`. `'   Last night, Darth Vader came down from planet Vulcan and told
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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Steve Langasek]

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 10:59:27AM +, Enrico Zini wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 09:07:35PM +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:

> > We plan on changing the current sections in the archive. With the rapid
> > growth of archive, many of them have become too big to be useful anymore.

> I propose 'oldlibs' to be renamed to 'deprecated'.

> That would also fit, for example, packages abandoned upstream, or
> packages that have a better alternative, but that still have users.

> It will also provide a path for planning removals of packages from the
> archive, when the maintainer is still ok with maintaining a package and
> fixing its bugs, but in his/her long term plan the package should
> eventually go away.

There are tools that understand the special meaning of the 'oldlibs' section
and treat it specially; at least deborphan comes to mind, there may be
others.  I don't see the necessity for such a section rename, but if it
happens I think it needs to be announced in advance and coordinated.

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Ben Hutchings]

On Fri, 2009-02-27 at 21:24 +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> >> video
> > mplayer*
> 
> That is already in.
> 
> > vswitch*
> 
> No hit for this match?!

Holger probably meant dvswitch.  Which is in NEW, anyway.

Ben.



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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Kurt Roeckx]

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 09:07:35PM +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> Hello world,
> 
> We also plan on adding a number of new sections.

wanna-build will need to be change for this too, and will
probably break if you give it an unknown section.  Please
wait until the list is added to wanna-build.


Kurt


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Darren Salt]

I demand that Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw) may or may not have written...

[snip]
> I do believe that users are getting used to see the terms i18n/l10n, and if
> our users are able to find out what httpd and vcs mean, I'm pretty sure
> they will survive l10n. :-)

"Where's the t1g3r section?"

-- 
| Darren Salt| linux or ds at  | nr. Ashington, | Toon
| RISC OS, Linux | youmustbejoking,demon,co,uk | Northumberland | Army
| + Lobby friends, family, business, government.WE'RE KILLING THE PLANET.

Windows 98. Eats RAM and HD space for breakfast.


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Russ Allbery]

Michael Tautschnig  writes:

> Seeing that the change of sections could pose some technical problems
> (not only challenges implementing them) as well, let me ask one
> (possibly stupid) question: Why do we need sections at all?
>
> All that policy states is that it simplifies some handling of packages.

Off the top of my head: They section the display of packages in utilities
like aptitude, which I for one find extremely useful.  They let you easily
perform bulk operations on related packages, like marking all libraries as
autoinstalled or removing all debug packages.  They let you find the set
of available add-ons for a given programming language easily in both
searches and browsing when you're looking for something in particular.

-- 
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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw)]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On 27-02-2009 08:41, Roger Leigh wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 02:53:04AM -0300, Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw) 
> wrote:
>> On 26-02-2009 23:10, Darren Salt wrote:
>>> I demand that Frans Pop may or may not have written...
 Joerg Jaspert wrote:
>> [...]
> The new sections are:
> localisationsLanguage packs
 I'd prefer "localization".
>>> Whereas I'd prefer "localisation"...
>>  What about using 'l10n'?  It tends to be well know these days, and
>> would avoid the s|z problem. :-)
> 
> The terms i18n and l10n might be well known amongst developers, but I
> contend that most users won't know (or should need to know) arcane
> abbreviations when we could use the full word.

Well, Debian has a lot of users that don't know English,
in this sense, some sections do not mean anything to them. I'm
not saying that we should translate it, but "knowing" the meaning
is quite relative under this point of view.

I do believe that users are getting used to see the terms
i18n/l10n, and if our users are able to find out what httpd and
vcs mean, I'm pretty sure they will survive l10n. :-)

Kind regards,
- --
Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw)
"Debian. Freedom to code. Code to freedom!"
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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Luciano Bello]

El Vie 27 Feb 2009, Joerg Jaspert escribió:
> Thats ok, get me a good name and short description for it please.
> "r" is not a good name, i think.

gnu-r ?
Everything about GNU R, an statistical computation and graphics system

luciano


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Joerg Jaspert]

>> Like the other poster, cli is very confusing. If we have enough
>> packages (get me a list/matches :) ), im not against a section for it,
>> but cli wouldnt be my favorite name for it.
> I’m not sure for the section name, but here is a list of matches:

Select one of cli-mono or ecma-cli and please also get me a short
description :)

> monodoc*
> monodevelop*
> mono-*
> libmono*
> *-mono
> *-cil (except cl-cil which goes to lisp)
> *-cil-*
> cli-*
> *-sharp2*

Taken.

-- 
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 is there a tag for "won't be fixed until sarge+1"?
 depends whether the BTS is year 2037 compliant


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Joerg Jaspert]

On 11674 March 1977, Aaron M. Ucko wrote:

> As I mentioned directly to override-change before encountering this
> message, I'd argue that my goo package is a (somewhat exotic)
> candidate.  In general, here's a first cut at a full list, including
> it and your initial proposals:

Thanks.

-- 
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 Joerg knuddeln ist wie mit Skorpionen schlafen.


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Joerg Jaspert]

>> Get me a short description for it.
> "Compiler, libraries, and tools for OCaml: a static typed ML language
> implementation supporting functional, imperative, and object-oriented
> programming styles".

You have an interesting definition of short, i stopped after : for
now. :)
(Its a different thing what packages.d.o will show later, for example,
but for me the part before the : is more than enough)

>> > The regex over binary package names would be "lib.*-ocaml.*",
>> > currently matching 160 binary packages in the APT database on my
>> > laptop (unstable + experimental).
>> ocaml
>> ocaml-*
>> lib*ocaml*
> Yup, of course I forgot the first pattern in the former post.
> Actually, you can add also "*-ocaml" which would match also
> "dh-ocaml", our debhelper-like tools for OCaml-related packages.

K.

-- 
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AM: Whats the best way to find out if your debian/copyright is correct?
NM: Upload package into the NEW queue.


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Joerg Jaspert]

> You also want totem* and kaffeine*.

Done.

> *-dbg packages could go in their own section(s) (debug, or libdebug &
> appdebug?); otherwise, I think that they should remain with (the bulk of) the
> packages for which they provide debug data.

All debug packages will go in the debug section.

-- 
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 I like shooting people
 er, wait
 that could be quoted out of context


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Joerg Jaspert]

>> video
> mplayer*

That is already in.

> vswitch*

No hit for this match?!

-- 
bye, Joerg
 I've annoyed Ganneff enough with that package already, no
reason to top it off by a build-depend on emacs for writing control
files


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Joerg Jaspert]

> Have sense to inaugurate a section with all the R modules? Nowadays
> many of them are in "math".

> $ apt-cache search r- | grep "^r-" | wc - l
> 133

Thats ok, get me a good name and short description for it please.
"r" is not a good name, i think.

-- 
bye, Joerg
* wiggy just looking at gforge-inject output
 last year I could not run it for months and still not see any new users
 it just added 19 new users
 it's this bloody active new DAM we've managed to get.


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Joerg Jaspert]

On 11674 March 1977, Edward Betts wrote:

> webfeed - RSS/Atom feed readers, aggregator and utilities

Not enough packages, can stay in web, especially as that gets rid of httpds.

-- 
bye, Joerg
 cron.daily time, unlocking: slave_NEW
 ftpbot: oh bugger off, slave_NEW isn't affected by dinstall :-)
 bugger off, sonst gibt es zoff!
 for the bilinguists


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Yavor Doganov]

[BTW, the only proper spelling is "GNUstep" -- not "Gnustep" or
"GNUStep".]

Vincent Danjean wrote:
>   I maintain a page.app package.

You mean paje.app, I assume (innocent typo)?

> It is right it is a gnustep application (ie it uses the gnustep
> framwork). However, I never use the gnustep environment.

Well, GNUstep is not a desktop environment (unlike GNOME, KDE, Xfce,
etc.), so it is more or less correct that the proposed section title
says "GNUstep environment" and not "GNUstep desktop environment".
GNUstep is more than libraries (like GLib/GTK+), so it is basically
right to say "environment".

Whether gnumail.app (for example) belongs in the "gnustep" section
instead of the "mail" section is another question.  I think that
programs that have already specialized sections should remain there
(i.e. "science" for adun.app or "news" for lusernet.app).  OTOH,
having the GNUstep apps/bundles/tools in one section is a convenience
for the average user (I guess).

Current GNUstep upstream labels it as "development environment", and
it's very unlikely that GNUstep would become a desktop anytime soon
(contrary to the hopes of many GNUsteppers, unfo).  There is a desktop
based on it, however, Étoilé (http://etoileos.com).  The Debian
package is about to be updated after the current post-release
dust/morass settles down.

>   This is just to say that some *.app application are not tied to the
> gnustep environment (for example, I find correct that gnumeric is in the
> 'math' section and not in the 'gnome' section).

Right, you can run GNUstep apps under any window manager (well, in
theory, at least -- there are lots of WM-specific bugs and
limitations).  The same holds (to a much greater extent) for GNOME or
pure GTK+ apps or pretty much everything else.  I would consider it a
bug if I install (say) kmail on my GNUstep workstation and it doesn't
pull all the required dependencies and doesn't work correctly.


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Joerg Jaspert]

>> We plan on changing the current sections in the archive. With the rapid
>> growth of archive, many of them have become too big to be useful anymore.
> According to my knowledge of dak, the sections are global. Which means
> that we don't have to worry about a possible kernel update for
> lenny+1/2. Am I correct with that?

Sections are. The overrides not, which means stable/oldstable wont
change and keep whatever they have now. Otherwise it wouldnt be possible
to do a change, ever, when it would always affect stable.

-- 
bye, Joerg
Some AM after a mistake:
Sigh.  One shouldn't AM in the early AM, as it were.  


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Bjørn Mork]

Josselin Mouette  writes:
> Le vendredi 27 février 2009 à 14:33 +0100, Raphael Hertzog a écrit :
>> On Fri, 27 Feb 2009, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
>> > Like the other poster, cli is very confusing. If we have enough
>> > packages (get me a list/matches :) ), im not against a section for it,
>> > but cli wouldnt be my favorite name for it.
>> 
>> I would suggest "c-sharp" for the section.
>
> The CLI is not restricted to a single language support. How are you
> going to classify IronPython or boo ?

How about those knowing what Common Language Infrastructure is about,
trying to describe it in a somewhat less ambigious way than "cli"?

Take a look at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLI

Can't speak for anyone else, but I would certainly think "command-line
interface" if I encountered a section named "cli".


Bjørn


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Josselin Mouette]

Le vendredi 27 février 2009 à 14:33 +0100, Raphael Hertzog a écrit :
> On Fri, 27 Feb 2009, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> > Like the other poster, cli is very confusing. If we have enough
> > packages (get me a list/matches :) ), im not against a section for it,
> > but cli wouldnt be my favorite name for it.
> 
> I would suggest "c-sharp" for the section.

The CLI is not restricted to a single language support. How are you
going to classify IronPython or boo ?

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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Raphael Hertzog]

On Fri, 27 Feb 2009, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> Like the other poster, cli is very confusing. If we have enough
> packages (get me a list/matches :) ), im not against a section for it,
> but cli wouldnt be my favorite name for it.

I would suggest "c-sharp" for the section.

Cheers,
-- 
Raphaël Hertzog

Le best-seller français mis à jour pour Debian Etch :
http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Luca Capello]

Hi Stefano!

Cc:ing again the Debian Common Lisp mailing list, please keep it!

On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 13:02:59 +0100, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 11:04:36AM +0100, Luca Capello wrote:
>> FYI, as Aaron already showed with his list, ome packages (especially the
>> "non-library" ones) do not have the cl-* suffix.  StumpWM is missing,
>> for example.
>
> Note that the current language-oriented sections (python, perl, and
> the just proposed ocaml and ruby) are meant to contain stuff related
> to "develop" in that language. They are not meant to contain
> everything implemented in a given language.

While I agree, this could pose a major problem for e.g. compilers: CLISP
(or any other CL compiler) is used to "develop" CL applications *and* to
start them.

NB, you can create a CL "executable", but this will be a "snapshot" of
the compiler, i.e. you start the compiler, then load your application
and finally save the status as an image, which can then be loaded as a
stand-alone "executable".  However, some CL compilers (e.g. GCL and ECL)
can produce real executables.

> While it is quite clear that we are rapidly approaching the inherent
> problem of sections (i.e., they cannot be orthogonal), I believe that
> the above rule is quite agreed upon.
>
> Hence, IMHO, StumpWM should be in a section related to X11 or window
> managers, not in "lisp".

As far as this is the general case, I am fine as well.  It is just that
I would like to avoid some applications in one section and some in the
other.

Thx, bye,
Gismo / Luca


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Michael Tautschnig]

> Bastian Blank wrote:
> > On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 09:07:35PM +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> > According to my knowledge of dak, the sections are global. Which means
> > that we don't have to worry about a possible kernel update for
> > lenny+1/2. Am I correct with that?
> 
> The sections are defined in the override files [1], which are per 
> codename. Special case is current testing (i.e. squueze), for which the 
> overrides are always kept the same as sid.
> 
> I assume the proposed changes would only affect sid + squeeze, not sarge 
> and lenny.
> 
> So you probably do have to worry about lennynhalf as that will introduce 
> new packages which should go in the current sections. So either they will 
> need to have the correct "old" sections in the control file, or the FTP 
> masters will have to correct them in the overrides file for lenny during 
> NEW processing.
> 

[...]

Seeing that the change of sections could pose some technical problems (not only
challenges implementing them) as well, let me ask one (possibly stupid)
question: Why do we need sections at all?

All that policy states is that it simplifies some handling of packages. If it's
about partitioning the archive into manageable components (some algorithm
traversing each component linearly or whatever), why not just group them by
source package names, as already done in other situations?

Thanks a lot,
Michael



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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 11:04:36AM +0100, Luca Capello wrote:
> FYI, as Aaron already showed with his list, ome packages (especially the
> "non-library" ones) do not have the cl-* suffix.  StumpWM is missing,
> for example.

Note that the current language-oriented sections (python, perl, and
the just proposed ocaml and ruby) are meant to contain stuff related
to "develop" in that language. They are not meant to contain
everything implemented in a given language.

While it is quite clear that we are rapidly approaching the inherent
problem of sections (i.e., they cannot be orthogonal), I believe that
the above rule is quite agreed upon.

Hence, IMHO, StumpWM should be in a section related to X11 or window
managers, not in "lisp".

Cheers.

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Dietro un grande uomo c'è ..|  .  |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
sempre uno zaino ...| ..: | Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Frans Pop]

Bastian Blank wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 09:07:35PM +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> According to my knowledge of dak, the sections are global. Which means
> that we don't have to worry about a possible kernel update for
> lenny+1/2. Am I correct with that?

The sections are defined in the override files [1], which are per 
codename. Special case is current testing (i.e. squueze), for which the 
overrides are always kept the same as sid.

I assume the proposed changes would only affect sid + squeeze, not sarge 
and lenny.

So you probably do have to worry about lennynhalf as that will introduce 
new packages which should go in the current sections. So either they will 
need to have the correct "old" sections in the control file, or the FTP 
masters will have to correct them in the overrides file for lenny during 
NEW processing.

For existing packages that are uploaded to stable (p-u) with a wrong 
section by accident there is no problem as the existing overrides for 
lenny would correct that automatically.

Cheers,
FJP

/me hopes he's got all that right :-)

[1] See: merkel:/org/ftp.debian.org/scripts/override


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Roger Leigh]

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 02:53:04AM -0300, Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw) 
wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
> 
> On 26-02-2009 23:10, Darren Salt wrote:
> > I demand that Frans Pop may or may not have written...
> >> Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> [...]
> >>> The new sections are:
> >>> localisationsLanguage packs
> 
> >> I'd prefer "localization".
> 
> > Whereas I'd prefer "localisation"...
> 
>   What about using 'l10n'?  It tends to be well know these days, and
> would avoid the s|z problem. :-)

The terms i18n and l10n might be well known amongst developers, but I
contend that most users won't know (or should need to know) arcane
abbreviations when we could use the full word.


Regards,
Roger

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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Josselin Mouette]

Le vendredi 27 février 2009 à 09:03 +0100, Joerg Jaspert a écrit :
> Like the other poster, cli is very confusing. If we have enough
> packages (get me a list/matches :) ), im not against a section for it,
> but cli wouldnt be my favorite name for it.

I’m not sure for the section name, but here is a list of matches:
monodoc*
monodevelop*
mono-*
libmono*
*-mono
*-cil (except cl-cil which goes to lisp)
*-cil-*
cli-*
*-sharp2*

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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Luca Capello]

Hi there!

Cc:ing the Debian Common Lisp mailing list.

On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 02:02:03 +0100, Aaron M. Ucko wrote:
> Joerg Jaspert  writes:
>> Its lisp. Not one special part of it, just lisp. So other dialects as
>> well, if someone gets me a list of packages (or matches) for it.
[...]
> cl-*

FYI, as Aaron already showed with his list, ome packages (especially the
"non-library" ones) do not have the cl-* suffix.  StumpWM is missing,
for example.

> *-el

There are some packages which have something after the -el suffix:

  iiimf-client-el-bin - Utility of IIIMF frontend for Emacs
  speechd-el-doc-cs - speechd-el documentation in Czech
  w3-el-e21 - Web browser for GNU Emacs 21
  w3m-el-snapshot - simple Emacs interface of w3m (development version)

However, we cannot add the *-el-* filter because this will also match
false positives, at least:

  libcommons-el-java - Implementation of the JSP2.0 Expression Language 
interpreter
  myspell-el-gr - Greek (el_GR) dictionary for myspell

And there is at least one package which is still missing:

  w3-url-e21 - URL library for use by w3-el-e21

> BTW, while compiling that list, I also ran across a couple more
> httpds: araneida and hunchentoot.

With my Common Lisp maintainer hat on, I am not sure I would like
araneida and hunchentoot to be placed in the httpd section.  As Joerg
already said in the thread, I think we need to define if the language
the program is written in is more important than the function of the
program itself.

Thx, bye,
Gismo / Luca


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Josselin Mouette]

Le vendredi 27 février 2009 à 01:19 +, Sam Morris a écrit :
> > I don’t like the name either, but can you think of a better one? We
> > could use “mono”, but it’s the implementation name.
> 
> 'clr' (common language runtime)? It's the acronym that MS uses quite a 
> bit.

CLR is the acronym for the interpreter, while CLI covers the whole
thing.

> Or 'msclr'? 'dotnetclr'?

I don’t like the idea of naming the section after another
implementation.

We could use 'cli-mono', or 'ecma-cli'.

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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Dave Holland]

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 07:13:07AM +, Matthew Johnson wrote:
> localization is the spelling given by the OED, so it is correct in all
> locales. It doesn't even list localisation as an alternative spelling.

The OED lists plenty of examples of "localisation" and "localise";
whether you consider the usage right or wrong, it's certainly
widespread. Cue the argument over a dictionary's role as describing or
prescribing use of language...

I couldn't care less, but "language-packs" would indeed avoid the whole
argument.

Dave (en_GB)


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Enrico Zini]

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 09:07:35PM +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:

> We plan on changing the current sections in the archive. With the rapid
> growth of archive, many of them have become too big to be useful anymore.

I propose 'oldlibs' to be renamed to 'deprecated'.

That would also fit, for example, packages abandoned upstream, or
packages that have a better alternative, but that still have users.

It will also provide a path for planning removals of packages from the
archive, when the maintainer is still ok with maintaining a package and
fixing its bugs, but in his/her long term plan the package should
eventually go away.


Ciao,

Enrico

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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Holger Levsen]

Hi,

On Freitag, 27. Februar 2009, Bastian Blank wrote:
> According to my knowledge of dak, the sections are global. Which means
> that we don't have to worry about a possible kernel update for
> lenny+1/2. Am I correct with that?

Can you/anybody please explain how this is related to the sections?


regards,
Holger


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Enrico Zini]

On Fri, Feb 27, 2009 at 07:19:11AM +, Matthew Johnson wrote:

> Should Java libs be in lib or libdevel (they are both). This is one of
> the reasons we've wanted a Java section. 

I wouldn't mind a proper discussion on the pros and cons of both.
That'd help me for debtags as well, where java libs, but also perl,
python and ruby modules for example, fit both as development libraries
and as shared libraries.

My general idea is asking: "would you like it to be hidden in a package
manager as dependency-only stuff?"  If a library can be used as a
development library, then maybe not, therefore 'libdevel'.  But this is
a nontrivial argument that is worth of more discussion than just my
gut feelings.


Ciao,

Enrico

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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Bastian Blank]

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 09:07:35PM +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> We plan on changing the current sections in the archive. With the rapid
> growth of archive, many of them have become too big to be useful anymore.

According to my knowledge of dak, the sections are global. Which means
that we don't have to worry about a possible kernel update for
lenny+1/2. Am I correct with that?

> kernel   Kernel and Kernel modules

Does this only include the user usable parts or also internal
development packages?

> linux-support-*
> linux-tree-*

As you explicitely list this, I assume the later.

Bastian

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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Emilio Pozuelo Monfort]

Vincent Danjean wrote:
> What about creating a 'libs' section for different languages?
> Something like libs-ruby, libs-perl, libs-python, libs-java, libs-r, ...
> 
> This would allow to split the big 'libs' section and this avoid to put
> libs (ie mostly automatic pulled packages) in sections where the user
> search for applications (for example 'java' for programs that help to
> write java development, ...)

I don't think 'java' would be the right place for applications. For example,
Eclipse is in devel rather than java. Same for Python, end users don't care if
the application is written in Python or C, they just want to play music or edit
a document or whatever.

So single java, python, perl... sections looks like the right choice to me.

Cheers,
Emilio



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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Vincent Danjean]

Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> The new sections are:
> 
> ruby Everything about ruby, an interpreted object oriented
>  language.
> java Everything about Java
> videoVideo viewers, editors, recording, streaming
> fontsFont packages
> gnustep  The Gnustep environment
> xfce The XFCE Desktop, fast and lightweight Desktop
>  Environment.
> httpdWebservers and their modules
> localisationsLanguage packs
> debugDebug packages
> lisp Everything about Lisp
> vcs  Version control systems
> haskell  Everything about haskell
> zope Zope/Plone Framework
> database Databases
> kernel   Kernel and Kernel modules

What about creating a 'libs' section for different languages?
Something like libs-ruby, libs-perl, libs-python, libs-java, libs-r, ...

This would allow to split the big 'libs' section and this avoid to put
libs (ie mostly automatic pulled packages) in sections where the user
search for applications (for example 'java' for programs that help to
write java development, ...)

It is also easier for tools such as deborphan to find libraries that
are not needed anymore. I know that the 'auto' flag should solve this
problem but it often happens for me to switch from auto to noauto when
trying to upgrade a package with 'apt-get install package' and no new
version of 'package' is available (in this case, the effect of
'apt-get install package' is to mark 'package' as 'noauto')

  Regards,
Vincent

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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Vincent Danjean]

Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> gnustep
> gnustep*
> libgnustep*
> *.app
> *.framework

  I maintain a page.app package. It is right it is a gnustep application
(ie it uses the gnustep framwork). However, I never use the gnustep
environment. Upstream sometimes talked about rewriting Page into another
language (such as C or C++) to get more contributor but did not do it yet
(not enough free time).
  This is just to say that some *.app application are not tied to the
gnustep environment (for example, I find correct that gnumeric is in the
'math' section and not in the 'gnome' section).

  Regards,
Vincent

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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Joerg Jaspert]

>> ruby Everything about ruby, an interpreted object 
>> oriented
>>  language.
>> java Everything about Java
> How about a "cli" section about everything related to Mono and the
> Common Language Infrastructure (aka .NET) ? That makes quite a number of
> packages now.

Like the other poster, cli is very confusing. If we have enough
packages (get me a list/matches :) ), im not against a section for it,
but cli wouldnt be my favorite name for it.

-- 
bye, Joerg
[...]that almost anything related to "intellectual property" is idiotic
by it's nature, [...]


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Joerg Jaspert]

> Maybe it could be interesting to open an accessibility section?

Maybe, maybe not. What packages would you put into it?

-- 
bye, Joerg
 LOL die Telefonnummer vom Arbeitsamt Mönchengladbach ist echt 404-0?
 Soll das nen schlechter Scherz sein?


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Matthew Johnson]

On Fri Feb 27 02:00, Enrico Zini wrote:
>  Putting java libraries into 'java' instead of 'libs' would just make
>  it harder for a package manager to hide libraries.  Debtags will work
>  for that, so no big deal, but at the moment 'libs' is nice because it
>  allows me to auto-tag packages from that section, based on reliable
>  information provided by the maintainers.

Should Java libs be in lib or libdevel (they are both). This is one of
the reasons we've wanted a Java section. 

Matt

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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Matthew Johnson]

On Fri Feb 27 02:10, Darren Salt wrote:
> > I'd prefer "localization".
> 
> Whereas I'd prefer "localisation"...
> 
> > - We use en_US in general -> "ize"
> 
> ... unless you're localising for en_US. OTOH, given that that section is for
> localisation, "localization" is probably right, being localised...
> 
> ("-ize" isn't actually wrong here, but it looks too American to us so we use
> "-ise" even where it *is* wrong; thus it ends up becoming right.)

localization is the spelling given by the OED, so it is correct in all
locales. It doesn't even list localisation as an alternative spelling.
The -ise form here is purely a reaction to American spelling, it's not
actually right.

Matt

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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw)]

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Hash: SHA1

On 26-02-2009 23:10, Darren Salt wrote:
> I demand that Frans Pop may or may not have written...
>> Joerg Jaspert wrote:
[...]
>>> The new sections are:
>>> localisationsLanguage packs

>> I'd prefer "localization".

> Whereas I'd prefer "localisation"...

What about using 'l10n'?  It tends to be well know these days, and
would avoid the s|z problem. :-)  And considering the goal outlined by Joerg
(not meant for packages like doc-debian-* but for language packs!), using
'language-packs' would probably be fine.


Kind regards,
- --
Felipe Augusto van de Wiel (faw)
"Debian. Freedom to code. Code to freedom!"
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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Aaron M. Ucko]

Daniel Moerner  writes:

> chicken-bin

Ah, yes, I meant to list that but forgot; good catch.

> mzscheme and drscheme are just plt-scheme transitional packages by now

True; in that case, perhaps they should go to oldlibs until they
retire altogether.

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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Darren Salt]

I demand that Joerg Jaspert may or may not have written...

[snip]
> The initial set of packages moved into the new sections will be found
> using the following matches:
[snip]
> video
[snip]
> *xine*

Slightly over-broad, unless you want to move library packages too (but I see
that that's mentioned in other follow-ups).

You also want totem* and kaffeine*.

*-dbg packages could go in their own section(s) (debug, or libdebug &
appdebug?); otherwise, I think that they should remain with (the bulk of) the
packages for which they provide debug data.

[snip]
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| RISC OS, Linux | youmustbejoking,demon,co,uk | Northumberland | Army
| + Output less CO2 => avoid boiling weather. TIME IS RUNNING OUT *FAST*.

I detect bikeshedding in progress.


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Darren Salt]

I demand that Frans Pop may or may not have written...

> Joerg Jaspert wrote:
>> We plan on changing the current sections in the archive. With the rapid
>> growth of archive, many of them have become too big to be useful anymore.

> Great.

>> The new sections are:
> [...]
>> localisationsLanguage packs

> I'd prefer "localization".

Whereas I'd prefer "localisation"...

> - We use en_US in general -> "ize"

... unless you're localising for en_US. OTOH, given that that section is for
localisation, "localization" is probably right, being localised...

("-ize" isn't actually wrong here, but it looks too American to us so we use
"-ise" even where it *is* wrong; thus it ends up becoming right.)

[snip]
> What about packages like libcvs-perl or libgit-ruby? Do they stay with the 
> language or move to this new category?

ISTM that they should stay with the language, but I can see why they might be
moved. There's a good argument there for having them belong to two sections,
but that's why debtags exists.

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| RISC OS, Linux | youmustbejoking,demon,co,uk | Northumberland | Army
|   http://www.youmustbejoking.demon.co.uk/progs.packages.html>

Resist the insidious influence of the evil American corruption of English!


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Enrico Zini]

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 09:07:35PM +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:

> While we acknowledge that something like debtags will make a better
> long-term solution, we do not think that it is ready yet to completly
> replace sections (e.g. because it isn't assured that all packages have
> tags). This is why we chose to go ahead and adjust what we have,
> instead of hoping that debtags can mature enough in time for squeeze.

There are other issues that make debtags not quite suitable to replace
sections: for example, the workflow is different.  Sections are chosen
by maintainers and ftp-masters, while tags are chosen by a mix of
people.  With the number of tags in the vocabulary approacing 600, we
just can't ask maintainer, ftp-masters, noone really, to know all of
them, and to know how and when to use them properly.


> The new sections are:
> ruby Everything about ruby, an interpreted object oriented
>  language.
> java Everything about Java
> videoVideo viewers, editors, recording, streaming
> fontsFont packages
> gnustep  The Gnustep environment
> xfce The XFCE Desktop, fast and lightweight Desktop
>  Environment.
> httpdWebservers and their modules
> localisationsLanguage packs
> debugDebug packages
> lisp Everything about Lisp
> vcs  Version control systems
> haskell  Everything about haskell
> zope Zope/Plone Framework
> database Databases
> kernel   Kernel and Kernel modules

I would like to consider this an opportunity to use sections to encode
something that fits with their workflow, that is: can we use sections to
carry information that only the maintainer and ftp-master can fill in,
or information for which it's safe and good that maintainer and
ftp-masters have the last say?

I noticed that most of the replies to this message are a run to add
one's favourite section to the list.  Are you sure that you want to go
in that direction?  Where would it lead except to having a poorer
version of debtags?

Some of the current sections *are* useful.  'libs' is useful.  'oldlibs'
is *very* useful, and I'd like to make a Debian QA tag "depends on a
library with section 'oldlibs'", once I find a nice algorithm to compute
the set of packages for it.  I'm happy that 'locali[sz]ations' and
'debug' are added.

All of these section group packages with very specific semanthics: a
package manager can hide 'libs' and 'oldlibs', can provide a special way
to install 'debug' packages corresponding to normal packages currently
installed.  Can offer a list of 'localisation' options for currently
installed packages.  Can warn when trying to install a package that
depends on an 'oldlibs' library, or if given a choice between an
'oldlibs' dependency and another one, pick the other one.  'oldlibs'
could be renamed to 'deprecated', come to think of it, and include
packages that are not libraries but that are still around until we
manage to get rid of them.

'text' is useless, and probably 'video' is going to be useless as well.
Debtags is what you would use for that information.  Putting java
libraries into 'java' instead of 'libs' would just make it harder for a
package manager to hide libraries.  Debtags will work for that,
so no big deal, but at the moment 'libs' is nice because it allows me to
auto-tag packages from that section, based on reliable information
provided by the maintainers.

Let's find more semantically sound sections.  For example, a section
"fringe", that the maintainer can use to signal that the package is
being used, but only by few people or in specific environments or
fields.  We could give specific suggestions on how to consider such
packages, for example we could suggest not to openly expose to the
internet a 'fringe' server, even if it has no open security bugs.  Or
given the choice between a 'fringe' dependency and another one, prefer
the other one.

How about a section for packages that are not maintained upstream
anymore?

Another one could be a 'data' section for "$FOO-data" packages, like
game data, that are always pulled in as dependencies and do not make
sense alone.  Another thing with a clear semanthic, and that for example
package managers could comfortably hide.

I hope I didn't take a tangent that is too weird to make sense.  But
given the premise that sections are useless, rather than just make them
more diversely useless, I'd prefer to twist them a bit into something
else.


Ciao,

Enrico

-- 
GPG key: 1024D/797EBFAB 2000-12-05 Enrico Zini 


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Daniel Moerner]

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 5:02 PM, Aaron M. Ucko  wrote:
> Joerg Jaspert  writes:
>
>> Its lisp. Not one special part of it, just lisp. So other dialects as
>> well, if someone gets me a list of packages (or matches) for it.
>
> As I mentioned directly to override-change before encountering this
> message, I'd argue that my goo package is a (somewhat exotic)
> candidate.  In general, here's a first cut at a full list, including
> it and your initial proposals:
>

There is one more currently in Debian:

chicken-bin

There is also one sitting in NEW (a secondary priority):

ypsilon

scheme9 has an ITP against it as well...


mzscheme and drscheme are just plt-scheme transitional packages by now


This will certainly make it easier to centralize all the different
Scheme interpreters. (And this reminds me...someone should package
r6rs-doc)

-- 
Daniel Moerner 


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Sam Morris]

On Fri, 27 Feb 2009 02:13:48 +0100, Josselin Mouette wrote:

> Le jeudi 26 février 2009 à 17:08 -0800, Kelly Clowers a écrit :
>> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 15:50, Josselin Mouette 
>> wrote:
>> > Le jeudi 26 février 2009 à 21:07 +0100, Joerg Jaspert a écrit :
>> >> ruby Everything about ruby, an interpreted
>> >> object oriented
>> >>  language.
>> >> java Everything about Java
>> >
>> > How about a "cli" section about everything related to Mono and the
>> > Common Language Infrastructure (aka .NET) ? That makes quite a number
>> > of packages now.
>> 
>> Am I the only one that gets confused by the name "cli"? I always think
>> "command line interface" first and mono/.net second.
> 
> I don’t like the name either, but can you think of a better one? We
> could use “mono”, but it’s the implementation name.

'clr' (common language runtime)? It's the acronym that MS uses quite a 
bit.

Or 'msclr'? 'dotnetclr'?

-- 
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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Josselin Mouette]

Le jeudi 26 février 2009 à 17:08 -0800, Kelly Clowers a écrit :
> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 15:50, Josselin Mouette  wrote:
> > Le jeudi 26 février 2009 à 21:07 +0100, Joerg Jaspert a écrit :
> >> ruby Everything about ruby, an interpreted object 
> >> oriented
> >>  language.
> >> java Everything about Java
> >
> > How about a "cli" section about everything related to Mono and the
> > Common Language Infrastructure (aka .NET) ? That makes quite a number of
> > packages now.
> 
> Am I the only one that gets confused by the name "cli"? I always
> think "command line interface" first and mono/.net second.

I don’t like the name either, but can you think of a better one? We
could use “mono”, but it’s the implementation name.

-- 
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: :' :
`. `'   Last night, Darth Vader came down from planet Vulcan and told
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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Aaron M. Ucko]

Joerg Jaspert  writes:

> Its lisp. Not one special part of it, just lisp. So other dialects as
> well, if someone gets me a list of packages (or matches) for it.

One more: ikarus (which I initially overlooked because it's only
available on i386 :-/).

-- 
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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Kelly Clowers]

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 15:50, Josselin Mouette  wrote:
> Le jeudi 26 février 2009 à 21:07 +0100, Joerg Jaspert a écrit :
>> ruby                     Everything about ruby, an interpreted object 
>> oriented
>>                          language.
>> java                     Everything about Java
>
> How about a "cli" section about everything related to Mono and the
> Common Language Infrastructure (aka .NET) ? That makes quite a number of
> packages now.

Am I the only one that gets confused by the name "cli"? I always
think "command line interface" first and mono/.net second.


Cheers,
Kelly Clowers


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Aaron M. Ucko]

Joerg Jaspert  writes:

> Its lisp. Not one special part of it, just lisp. So other dialects as
> well, if someone gets me a list of packages (or matches) for it.

As I mentioned directly to override-change before encountering this
message, I'd argue that my goo package is a (somewhat exotic)
candidate.  In general, here's a first cut at a full list, including
it and your initial proposals:

albert
cl-*
clisp*
cmucl*
common-lisp-controller
drscheme
elib
elk
gambc
gauche*
gcl*
goo
guile-*
lush*
mzscheme
oaklisp
plt-scheme
sawfish-lisp-source
sbcl*
scm
scheme2c
scheme48
scsh*
sigscheme
slib
slime
stalin
tinyscheme
xml-to-sexp
*-el
*-elisp
*-lisp

Thanks!

BTW, while compiling that list, I also ran across a couple more
httpds: araneida and hunchentoot.

-- 
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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Edward Betts]

How about:

webfeed - RSS/Atom feed readers, aggregator and utilities

akregator
blam
canto
cl-rss
claws-mail-feeds-reader
dcoprss
evolution-rss
feed2imap
firefox-sagefirefox-sage
kitty
liferea*
magpierss
miro*
newsbeuter
nrss
olive
php-xml-rss
planet
python-feedparser
python-feedvalidator
python-pyrss2gen
rawdog
rss2email
rsskit.framework
rssreader.app
rsstail
snownews
yarssr
yocto-reader

-- 
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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Luciano Bello]

El Jue 26 Feb 2009, Joerg Jaspert escribió:
> ruby                     Everything about ruby, an interpreted object oriented
>                          language.
> java                     Everything about Java

Have sense to inaugurate a section with all the R modules? Nowadays many of 
them are in "math".

$ apt-cache search r- | grep "^r-" | wc -   l
133

luciano


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Holger Levsen]

Hi Jög,

On Donnerstag, 26. Februar 2009, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> As Lenny is finally released, and we are early in the cycle for squeeze,
> now is the best time to do some long-needed changes to our archive.
[...]

Cool, nice!

> The new sections are:

I think an r section would be useful, there are already 131 (binary packages) 
in lenny and around thousand around the corner, I've heard :)

> video

mplayer*
vswitch*


regards,
Holger


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Josselin Mouette]

Le jeudi 26 février 2009 à 21:07 +0100, Joerg Jaspert a écrit :
> ruby Everything about ruby, an interpreted object oriented
>  language.
> java Everything about Java

How about a "cli" section about everything related to Mono and the
Common Language Infrastructure (aka .NET) ? That makes quite a number of
packages now.

-- 
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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 11:48:18PM +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> > I don't if that warrants an "ocaml" section, which is your call, but
> > if it does, well, ... heads up :-)
> 
> Get me a short description for it.

"Compiler, libraries, and tools for OCaml: a static typed ML language
implementation supporting functional, imperative, and object-oriented
programming styles".

> > The regex over binary package names would be "lib.*-ocaml.*",
> > currently matching 160 binary packages in the APT database on my
> > laptop (unstable + experimental).
> 
> ocaml
> ocaml-*
> lib*ocaml*

Yup, of course I forgot the first pattern in the former post.
Actually, you can add also "*-ocaml" which would match also
"dh-ocaml", our debhelper-like tools for OCaml-related packages.

Cheers.

-- 
Stefano Zacchiroli -o- PhD in Computer Science \ PostDoc @ Univ. Paris 7
z...@{upsilon.cc,pps.jussieu.fr,debian.org} -<>- http://upsilon.cc/zack/
Dietro un grande uomo c'è ..|  .  |. Et ne m'en veux pas si je te tutoie
sempre uno zaino ...| ..: | Je dis tu à tous ceux que j'aime


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Joerg Jaspert]

>> lisp Everything about Lisp
> Is this just about Common Lisp, or other Lisp dialects as well? I'm
> mainly referring to Scheme here, as it is another Lisp dialect in
> (relatively) widespread use (the third one being Emacs-Lisp).

Its lisp. Not one special part of it, just lisp. So other dialects as
well, if someone gets me a list of packages (or matches) for it.

-- 
bye, Joerg
Some NM:
>A developer contacts you and asks you to met for a keysign. What is
>your response and why?
Do you like beer? When do we meet? [...]


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Joerg Jaspert]

>> database Databases
> [...]
>> database
>> postgresql*
>> pg*
>> sqlite*
>> mysql*
>> libmysql*
>> db4.*
>> libdb4*
>> firebird*
>> sql-*   
>> qdbm*
> I think this needs a bit detailed specification. Is this going to be
> for servers or also libraries? In latter case definitely something is
> missing, eg. libdbi.*, libgdbm.*.

Currently its mainly servers and modules/"plugins" for them.

-- 
bye, Joerg
Endianess is the dispute on which end to open an egg at.


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Joerg Jaspert]

On 11673 March 1977, Frans Pop wrote:

>> localisationsLanguage packs
> I'd prefer "localization".

> - We use en_US in general -> "ize"

Well, I dont really care. Fine, adjusted.

> - Having the section name plural seems inconsistent with other
> sections.

Dito.

>> video
> [...]
>> dvd*
> I wonder if packages like dvd+rw-tools*, dvdisaster or dvdrtools really 
> belong in this category. Not all that's DVD is video related.
> For example, dvd+rw-tools contains growisofs, which is used to create 
> Debian CDs...

Yeah. This will need close(r) inspection when moving packages.

>> httpd
> Add boa.

Done

>> vcs
> What about packages like libcvs-perl or libgit-ruby? Do they stay with the 
> language or move to this new category?

Language.

I intended to add some "section order" to the mail too, but then dropped
this for now. But will come back with that. Basically meaning that, if
your package would fit multiple sections, the higher one would
win. Something like "[language specific section] >> interpreters" and
similar.

-- 
bye, Joerg
 Sesse: I doubt that many people will switch network


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Joerg Jaspert]

On 11673 March 1977, Adeodato Simó wrote:
> * Joerg Jaspert [Thu, 26 Feb 2009 21:07:35 +0100]:
>
>> database
>> libmysql*
>> libdb4*
> I'm not sure these (and possibly *some* of the other lib* packages
> included in the listing) should be moved out of Section: libs. I can see
> how having a database section to browse can be useful, but I don't think
> support libraries have a place there, since they're something that's
> going to be installed because of dependencies, and not intentionally.

> Thoughts?

Hrmyes. This is a preliminary list of matches only anyway, not the final
holy grail, so we will adjust it wherever neccessary before finally
doing the work. :)

For libmysql* and libdb4* I agree insofar as that are really packages no
user (usually) installs by hand, but gets pulled in as a
dependency. Removed from list.

-- 
bye, Joerg
 since anyone who can get along with elmo must *surely* be part of
 the cabal.
 vorlon: Not true.  I've gotten along with elmo from time to time.
We're just both ashamed of it.


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Samuel Thibault]

Joerg Jaspert, le Thu 26 Feb 2009 21:07:35 +0100, a écrit :
> We plan on changing the current sections in the archive. With the rapid
> growth of archive, many of them have become too big to be useful anymore.
> 
>[...]
> 
> The new sections are:
> 
> ruby Everything about ruby, an interpreted object oriented
>  language.
> java Everything about Java
> videoVideo viewers, editors, recording, streaming
> fontsFont packages
> gnustep  The Gnustep environment
> xfce The XFCE Desktop, fast and lightweight Desktop
>  Environment.
> httpdWebservers and their modules
> localisationsLanguage packs
> debugDebug packages
> lisp Everything about Lisp
> vcs  Version control systems
> haskell  Everything about haskell
> zope Zope/Plone Framework
> database Databases
> kernel   Kernel and Kernel modules

Maybe it could be interesting to open an accessibility section?

Samuel


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Joerg Jaspert]

> Not like it is *that* important, but we now have more than 100
> OCaml-related source packages in the archive, most of which are
> libraries for OCaml development.

> I don't if that warrants an "ocaml" section, which is your call, but
> if it does, well, ... heads up :-)

Get me a short description for it.

> The regex over binary package names would be "lib.*-ocaml.*",
> currently matching 160 binary packages in the APT database on my
> laptop (unstable + experimental).

ocaml   

   
ocaml-* 

   
lib*ocaml*  

   

-- 
bye, Joerg
* maxx hat weasel seine erste packung suse gebracht, der hat mich dafür
  später zu debian gebracht
 .oO( und jetzt ist der DD.  jeder macht mal fehler.. )
 du hast 2 gemacht du warst auch noch advocate :P


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Frank Lin PIAT]

On Thu, 2009-02-26 at 21:07 +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> The new sections are:
[..]
> videoVideo viewers, editors, recording, streaming

What about renaming sound as audio? (if we introduce the video one, )

Since the (perl|python|ruby|...) sections should contains libraries,
modules, engines but not end-users applications, should they be renamed?
(perl-lib, or something better)

Some sections are hardly used and could be removed, especially
"news" (~35 pkg). Also "shells" has only 25 pkg.

Franklin


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Daniel Moerner]

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 12:07 PM, Joerg Jaspert  wrote:
> lisp            (no, not in brackets)
>                cl-*
>                *-lisp
>                *-el

Two things:

First, if by Lisp you mean everything related to Lisp, then this
should probably also include scheme*, not just Common Lisp packages.
Scheme will require more manual work because many Scheme interpreters
have bizarre names.

Second, as far as I can tell, Sections can be set for either binaries
or source packages in debian/control. There are some source packages
that distribute *-el binaries (scheme48, which I just adopted, for
instance). I trust that this move will only move the binary packages
and not drag along the source and other binaries it produces?
(Obviously this is not problem for scheme48, but it might pop up for
other packages.)This may be an ignorant question but IANADD.

Regards,
Daniel Moerner

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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Bernd Zeimetz]

Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 09:07:35PM +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
>> The new sections are:
> 
> Not like it is *that* important, but we now have more than 100
> OCaml-related source packages in the archive, most of which are
> libraries for OCaml development.
> 
> I don't if that warrants an "ocaml" section, which is your call, but
> if it does, well, ... heads up :-)


b...@think:~$ apt-cache search liblua | wc -l
84

So I guess we should have a lua section, too?
liblua.* would fit into that section at least.

Cheers,

Bernd

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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Rene Engelhard]

Hi,

Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> java Everything about Java
{...}
> gcj*

*gcj, too probably.

> database
> postgresql*
> pg*
> sqlite*
> mysql*
> libmysql*

That also hits database libs. Which makes me wonder what the best for
libhsqldb-java is. databases or java? :)

(hsqldb-server probably should be in databases)

Grüße/Regards,

René
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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Andreas Rottmann]

Joerg Jaspert  writes:

> The new sections are:
[...]
> lisp Everything about Lisp
[...]
>
Is this just about Common Lisp, or other Lisp dialects as well? I'm
mainly referring to Scheme here, as it is another Lisp dialect in
(relatively) widespread use (the third one being Emacs-Lisp).

Regards, Rotty


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Michal Čihař]

Hi

Dne Thu, 26 Feb 2009 21:07:35 +0100
Joerg Jaspert  napsal(a):

> database Databases
[...]
> database
> postgresql*
> pg*
> sqlite*
> mysql*
> libmysql*
> db4.*
> libdb4*
> firebird*
> sql-*   
> qdbm*

I think this needs a bit detailed specification. Is this going to be
for servers or also libraries? In latter case definitely something is
missing, eg. libdbi.*, libgdbm.*.

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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Stefano Zacchiroli]

On Thu, Feb 26, 2009 at 09:07:35PM +0100, Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> The new sections are:

Not like it is *that* important, but we now have more than 100
OCaml-related source packages in the archive, most of which are
libraries for OCaml development.

I don't if that warrants an "ocaml" section, which is your call, but
if it does, well, ... heads up :-)

The regex over binary package names would be "lib.*-ocaml.*",
currently matching 160 binary packages in the APT database on my
laptop (unstable + experimental).

Cheers.

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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Frans Pop]

Joerg Jaspert wrote:
> We plan on changing the current sections in the archive. With the rapid
> growth of archive, many of them have become too big to be useful
> anymore. 

Great.

> The new sections are:
[...]
> localisationsLanguage packs

I'd prefer "localization".

- We use en_US in general -> "ize"
- Having the section name plural seems inconsistent with other sections.

> video
[...]
> dvd*

I wonder if packages like dvd+rw-tools*, dvdisaster or dvdrtools really 
belong in this category. Not all that's DVD is video related.
For example, dvd+rw-tools contains growisofs, which is used to create 
Debian CDs...

> httpd

Add boa.

> vcs

What about packages like libcvs-perl or libgit-ruby? Do they stay with the 
language or move to this new category?

Cheers,
FJP


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Re: Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Adeodato Simó]

* Joerg Jaspert [Thu, 26 Feb 2009 21:07:35 +0100]:

> database
> libmysql*
> libdb4*

I'm not sure these (and possibly *some* of the other lib* packages
included in the listing) should be moved out of Section: libs. I can see
how having a database section to browse can be useful, but I don't think
support libraries have a place there, since they're something that's
going to be installed because of dependencies, and not intentionally.

Thoughts?

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Upcoming Section changes in the archive

[Joerg Jaspert]

Hello world,

As Lenny is finally released, and we are early in the cycle for squeeze,
now is the best time to do some long-needed changes to our archive.
Much of what we are currently doing is not visible to you as a user of
this archive, but the action we talk about now is:

We plan on changing the current sections in the archive. With the rapid
growth of archive, many of them have become too big to be useful anymore.

While we acknowledge that something like debtags will make a better
long-term solution, we do not think that it is ready yet to completly
replace sections (e.g. because it isn't assured that all packages have
tags). This is why we chose to go ahead and adjust what we have,
instead of hoping that debtags can mature enough in time for squeeze.

We plan on finally removing the already deprecated section base.
Earlier in Debian's lifetime our installer used the base section to
mark packages important for the base system. This is no longer needed,
debian-installer has much better ways to do the same thing, hence it
can go away.

We also plan on adding a number of new sections. At the bottom of this
mail we provide a listing of which packages will initially be put into
those new sections. If you think one of your packages should be put
into one of the new sections but it won't be seen by the matches we
list, please tell override-cha...@debian.org, and it will be moved.

NOTE:
This is not yet done, but will be done soon. We will send a mail to
d-d-a when we made the changes.

There is NO upload required to move a package to a new section.
DO NOT UPLOAD YOUR PACKAGE FOR A SECTION CHANGE ONLY.
It is enough if you change your debian/control file in the next regular
upload, after we announced the new sections exist.


The new sections are:

ruby Everything about ruby, an interpreted object oriented
 language.
java Everything about Java
videoVideo viewers, editors, recording, streaming
fontsFont packages
gnustep  The Gnustep environment
xfce The XFCE Desktop, fast and lightweight Desktop
 Environment.
httpdWebservers and their modules
localisationsLanguage packs
debugDebug packages
lisp Everything about Lisp
vcs  Version control systems
haskell  Everything about haskell
zope Zope/Plone Framework
database Databases
kernel   Kernel and Kernel modules

The initial set of packages moved into the new sections will be found
using the following matches:

ruby
ruby-*
*-ruby
lib*-ruby1.[89]
irb*
jruby*
racc
rake
rant
rbbr
rcov
*eruby*
rails
rubilicious
soap4r
redcloth
rubyfilter
rubyluabridge
java
java*
sun-java*
*-java
openjdk-*
kaffe*
cacao*
jikes*
default-jdk*
ecj*
fastjar
gcj*
libgcj*
gij*
ikvm
jclassinfo
jflex
jlex
jlint
junit*
nice
maven*
ant
ant-*
tomcat*
jetty*
video
aatv
aview
avifile-*
cfourcc
dov4l
dvb*
dvd*
dvgrab
dvr
elisa*
fbtv
flvtool*
*ffmpeg*
freevo
*-mediaplayer
*mplayer*
*xine*
gnash*
gqcam
hasciicam
kino
ktoon
klash
kvdr
libdv-bin
me-tv
mkvtoolnix*
motion
ogle*
openmovieeditor
pia
pyvnc2swf
recordmydesktop
scantv
smpeg*
streamer
swfdec*
swfmill
thoggen
tvtime
v4l*
vamps
vdr*
vlc*
wmtv
xawtv*
fonts
ttf*
cmap*
xfonts*
font*
cm-*
culmus*
dvi2ps-fontdata-*
gsfonts*