Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Mon, Aug 28, 2006 at 07:44:59PM -0400, Daniel Dickinson wrote: Then lets look at how stable ubuntu stable is or is not. I know I've seen posts on these lists suggesting that ubuntu stable tends to pull in things from debian unstable[1] and is therefore less stable. Ubuntu does not pull packages from Debian unstable into its stable releases, and never has. We pull packages from unstable into our development branch, which is then progressively frozen, stabilized and released. -- - mdz -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Sun, Aug 27, 2006 at 01:05:56AM -0400, Theodore Tso wrote: On Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 04:02:04PM +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote: - X ran with the wrong resolution (typical i915 problem) and with the wrong dpi setting Can't speak to that; my ATI Firegl video worked automatically out of the box --- with 3D accelerated graphics automatically. That's an interesting observation, as Ubuntu 6.06 LTS does not configure X to use the proprietary driver by default. If that device worked out of the box, it was due to Ubuntu having a newer version of the open source ATI driver. -- - mdz -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Personally I think the DS team have enough work making sure security updates are a smooth process for packages *in the OS*: being expected to test random-external-package-x on top of that is asking too much. Well, might be. I dont really know if the Sarge's OOo 2.0 beta crashes too, however, since I don't think many people are actually using it. The question however is, why should it take over 2 months to fix such a cruel bug after it has been discovered. Peter -- Odchádzajúca správa neobsahuje vírusy, nepoužívam Windows. === Mgr. Peter Tuhársky Referát informatiky Mesto Banská Bystrica ČSA 26 975 39 Banská Bystrica Tel: +421 48 4330 118 Fax: +421 48 411 3575 === -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Am Montag, 4. September 2006 08:08 schrieb Mgr. Peter Tuharsky: Personally I think the DS team have enough work making sure security updates are a smooth process for packages *in the OS*: being expected to test random-external-package-x on top of that is asking too much. Well, might be. I dont really know if the Sarge's OOo 2.0 beta crashes There is no Sarges OOo 2.0 beta. Regards, Rene -- .''`. René Engelhard -- Debian GNU/Linux Developer : :' : http://www.debian.org | http://people.debian.org/~rene/ `. `' [EMAIL PROTECTED] | GnuPG-Key ID: 248AEB73 `- Fingerprint: 41FA F208 28D4 7CA5 19BB 7AD9 F859 90B0 248A EB73
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
At 1156986534 past the epoch, Michelle Konzack wrote: to be fair with Mgr Tuharsky, I think that it is important to remind that the bug he is talking about in not affecting OpenOffice only, that it was introduced by a security update, and that for various reasons the fix takes months to be released, leaving users with a broken Sarge. ^ Do you mean Testing? A security update in sarge for a different package breaks OOo2 in some circumstances on Sarge. That is, if someone installs OOo2, which means fetching it from elsewhere (backports perhaps?) an unrelated security update will stop it working. Personally I think the DS team have enough work making sure security updates are a smooth process for packages *in the OS*: being expected to test random-external-package-x on top of that is asking too much. -- Jon Dowland http://alcopop.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Am 2006-08-29 11:55:05, schrieb Charles Plessy: Dear Michelle, to be fair with Mgr Tuharsky, I think that it is important to remind that the bug he is talking about in not affecting OpenOffice only, that it was introduced by a security update, and that for various reasons the fix takes months to be released, leaving users with a broken Sarge. ^ Do you mean Testing? Maybe the debian website would deserve a section in which Debian communicates on those issues. After all, I think that they are similar in concept (but not in gravity) to recalls seen in the industry: a broken material was released, so special communication could help to contact the users, explain the problem, and help them to fix it. And since I have read on MANY Debian Lists, there a peoples using Testing and had NEVER problems I can not believe it. I wold never take over the idea to tell my customers to use Testing! Can you imagine, you have an enterprise and can not more work because... Have a nice day, Thanks, Greetings and nice Day Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi 0033/6/6192519367100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
* Michelle Konzack [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006-08-31 01:08:54 +0200]: Am 2006-08-29 11:55:05, schrieb Charles Plessy: Dear Michelle, to be fair with Mgr Tuharsky, I think that it is important to remind that the bug he is talking about in not affecting OpenOffice only, that it was introduced by a security update, and that for various reasons the fix takes months to be released, leaving users with a broken Sarge. ^ Do you mean Testing? The breakage being referred to was introduced in a security update for sarge. -- mithrandi, i Ainil en-Balandor, a faer Ambar signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas? Debian official update sub-release
John Goerzen wrote: On Mon, Aug 28, 2006 at 05:09:54PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: ciol wrote: The problem is that Debian doesn't speak a lot about nice features like volatile and backports, for instance in the official web site, where it's difficult to see the links. The... err... issue is that these services (snapshots, volatile, backports) are not official project's projects yet and also quite new, hence, not integrated in the current stable installer. It is discussed to change this though. You are correct, though, that they're not widely announced. As it is, it is unclear to me who is building those packages, of what quality they are, and what kind of security support they are receiving. It's Debian developers. They're updated occasionally. Security updates are pulled into both archives in similar timeframes like security.debian.org, sometimes even faster since not that many architectures are involved. Regards, Joey -- Have you ever noticed that General Public Licence contains the word Pub? Please always Cc to me when replying to me on the lists. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Am 2006-08-24 17:51:55, schrieb Rudy Godoy: I do believe it's more a matter of relations with press and media than budget. We have no easy-way-to-get-it to tell people why they would want to use Debian. Ubuntu, on the other hand, has achieved to do so, and what they tell that we can't? nothing. All what they advertise we do offer. But we are not good on advertise our OS. What do we do, if one day to another 10 million or more peoples want to use Linux (it does not mater which distribution) ARE WE PREPARED? I asume, the worldwide Linux resources would crash. We need to tell people: Debian is fine for you because it allows you to get your work done and be productive, whether you are an artist, corporate employee, student, doctor, etc. Right... That kind of advertisement, focusing on things that matter for people more than specs and technical details, which are only interesting for those who already in the computing area. I know there is a subproject working on such things, which is great. debian-desktop ? debian-edu ? (Skolelinux) No, I still believe we need more people and relations with press, and not only the technical ones, we should advertise more our work and good experiences like donzka, LinEx, and the others. Not only tell ourselves: we know we are doing things better. We should tell it to others too! Hmmm... Greetings Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi 0033/6/6192519367100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Am 2006-08-25 11:46:20, schrieb Mgr. Peter Tuharsky: 1b, If things don't work, it's sometimes hard to get them working either. Example: Bug 372719. The OOo 2.0 keeps crashing for 2 months thank to KNOWN bug in security upgrade. Now tell somebody, that Debian But OOo 2.0 is not in Stable! 1c, Other cases are when something CAN be done in Debian, and even documentation exists, but it is quite complicated and time consuming, and truly should be much easier. Mostly the installer's playground to make life easier and set up things. For example, to automatically install national fonts and translation packages if the user already entered his location and national data. Right, this is one thing I mis in the installation of X. Same for the console font since it does not fit my needs for [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED]. Using UTF-8 on the console is a nightmare... LatArCyrHeb is no solution since it is not complete. Greetings Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi 0033/6/6192519367100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Am 2006-08-26 02:56:25, schrieb Hendrik Sattler: Am Freitag 25 August 2006 12:54 schrieb Wouter Verhelst: Given that a kernel image these days takes up about 50M already I guess that those that care for the smallest possible base system (and those that hate initrd/initramfs) have their own kernel. My one (for a laptop) has an installed size of 7456 KB (not even close to 50MB). For Linux its true. I have arround the same size. HS Thanks, Greetings and nice Day Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi 0033/6/6192519367100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Am 2006-08-26 02:01:21, schrieb Benjamin Seidenberg: You can always use a Transnational Republic ID card. :-) Where can I get this? - Martin? Thanks, Greetings and nice Day Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi 0033/6/6192519367100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Am 2006-08-27 01:19:23, schrieb Adam Borowski: I am pretty sure Michelle has at least _some_ sort of ID, even as an illegal alien. And with the current anti-Arab scare she would be already deported were she lacking complete valid papers -- you can sit in peace if you don't travel anywhere, but by browsing debian-devel I get the impression Michelle travels around a lot. If you are working for the French Ministry of Defense in conjunction with the Interneational Court of Justice (Den Haag) you will have some privilegues. And yes, I can can do voyagues in Iran, Syria, Lebanon and Turkey without any problems using a Syrien passport NON-VALID in Europe. But thats not a problem with the MOF but with the regional Prefecture. Michelle, you're not a nobody. Many people know you. If I walked I know and my E-mail searched in Googls for at least the last 8 Years (This is WHY I accept several 1000' apamss per day and using spamassassin, etc.) Also, the name means little. I don't really care if an upload was done by a person who claims to be named Benjamin Seidenberg, I care Since I am Hermaphrodite (I have a legal judgement for the name change) there is a problem with my nams now... 5 diffent names... 1) My Birthname= Tamay Dogan (female) 2) My illegal Adoptivname = Carsten Konzack (male) 3) At the french Foreignt Legion = Michel Clairmont (male) and later (now women at the FL) = Michelle Clairmont (female) 4) And my Civil European Name = Michelle Konzack (female) 5) And since my friends in Morocco = Samira Samir (female + male) know I am hermaprodite, they call me Now I am waiting for the European Court of jusice to decide what to do. (I am genetic hermaphrodit, so NO doctor can tell I am female or male) (I like to be HOW I AM - an Hermaphrodite doing its job) Thanks, Greetings and nice Day, - confusing the World Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi 0033/6/6192519367100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas? Debian official update sub-release
On Mon, Aug 28, 2006 at 10:26:22AM -0500, John Goerzen wrote: [volatile and backports] As it is, it is unclear to me who is building those packages, of what quality they are, and what kind of security support they are receiving. Volatile was set up by Andreas Barth, and is maintained by Andreas and Martin Zobel-Helas. Both are Debian Developers; in fact, since the time that Joey left the job open, both have now become our Stable Release Managers. Software for volatile is autobuilt on the same 'unofficial' buildd setup as the one for experimental. I call it 'unofficial' because it's not hosted on any debian.org machine, but the reality is that the people maintaining these machines have to adhere to the same standards as the ones maintaining the official network (i.e., they're all DDs). Backports was set up by Norbert Tretkowski. The published policy is that only packages that have made it into testing will be allowed on backports.org; and people with a keyring in the Debian keyring can upload packages there -- nobody else. Builds for backports are done by the same unofficial setup as the one for volatile and experimental, though at least m68k is not autobuilt for backports (since I (a) don't have the hardware, and (b) don't have the time to maintain yet another buildd host. Interested people are welcome to volunteer, provided they're DDs). -- Lo-lan-do Home is where you have to wash the dishes. -- #debian-devel, Freenode, 2004-09-22 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Sun August 27 2006 18:55, you wrote: Deferring to Ubuntu for this work is the worst sort of defeatist nonsense and I will not to bow to it. I like collaborating with the Ubuntu people, but I refuse to compromise my own work or Debian as a project just so that they can excel. I think you missed the point, Ubuntu's work would then be part of Debian rather than superceding or conflicting with what Debian does. Instead of Debian annoying its users by adopting Ubuntu-like feature, or annoying Ubuntu by not doing so, everyone would be able to get what they want within a reusable framework. Keep in mind that if Ubuntu is able to easily bend Debian to its will and create a top-notch desktop, anyone else can do it to... including Debian. No need to throw in the towel or compromise anything. - Bruce -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
[sorry for the duplicate, but I want to fix the threading] On Sun August 27 2006 18:55, David Nusinow wrote: Deferring to Ubuntu for this work is the worst sort of defeatist nonsense and I will not to bow to it. I like collaborating with the Ubuntu people, but I refuse to compromise my own work or Debian as a project just so that they can excel. I think you missed the point, Ubuntu's work would then be part of Debian rather than superceding or conflicting with what Debian does. Instead of Debian annoying its users by adopting Ubuntu-like feature, or annoying Ubuntu by not doing so, everyone would be able to get what they want within a reusable framework. Keep in mind that if Ubuntu is able to easily bend Debian to its will and create a top-notch desktop, anyone else can do it to... including Debian. No need to throw in the towel or compromise anything. - Bruce -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Bruce, Uhm, Debian's target audience is not Joe User, never has been AFAICT. Joe isn't usually capable of determining which MTA, web server, proxy server, etc., specific implementation is best for them, assuming they are even aware of the architecture underlying the UI they see... Debian assumes all of that of its users. Then You must let them go to Ubuntu, because many simply don't want to know that either, just use the computer for their daily tasks. In that case, we can close that Debian is at least as good as Ubuntu dispute immediately, being false. Instead, we can say Debian is at least as good as Ubuntu FOR TECHNICAL USERS safely. Why old software is commonplace. Slow and lazy with the packaging... or does it just take time to get all the pieces functioning well enough to be an easily derivable basis, and one which changes every six months would be a poor choice for that use. I'd say neither of that. Just unable to recognize a few pieces of software that needs to be upgraded more frequently, and (so far) unable to make that happen. Ideas are coming however, maybe one day we'll see it happening. The way I see it: distros tailored to specific types of users which are based on Debian are not making up for Debian's failings, they are the most natural and may even be the actual intended use of what Debian provides. Yes, I see it natural too. Debian is doing the great task of gathering free software and making it work together as-much-as-possible. Making the universal and useful distribution for everyone might be beyond it's ability, and there the place for Ubuntu and friends emerges.. Some Debianists don't like it, however let's celebrate that at least Ubuntu is making the user-friendly distro that people like. Peter HTH - Bruce -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Rudy: There is so much to say about that, that I hardly can remember the very concrete cases, so please don't attack me on that basis. I wasn't attacking you, If you had that impression I'm sorry. No, I really hadn't. I mentioned that just preventively, not targeted at You -because I feel it is quite common in wider audience to attack on this basis. 1, Ubuntu places the care about the average-Joe-user at first place at worst. Debian dosen't. Yes, but Debian has a broader user-base, maybe that's an issue to resolve. Sounds dangerously :-) I think the issues you point out is the feeback what we need, and discuss about them. I encourage you to also post to the mailing list. I'm trying to figure out how we can listen more our users needs, and then make decissions based on real information and not only what we feel. I want to reach those average-joe users and get their feedback. Yeah, that's not easy. Howabout some form -user could be navigated to some basic webpage where he could answer some simple questions? Not too many questions (optimally 5-8?), preferably pre-answered (by some selection box), of course with possibility to add non-default answer for us to be able to extend the possible answers cathegories.. If user wished to add more feedback, he could have an option, at the end of the basic form, of some more feedback, if U wish extended form. Sample questions: What have been the most difficult part of installation for You (disk partitioning, language selection,...), What have caused it (unsufficient help, nonintuitive, too technical questions). User should be asked, if he will participate on some short survey-after-week-of-using-Debian. If he agreed, he will be asked automatically after week, by opening some simple and polite application or applet on his desktop, about his impression of Debian. Again, what pleases him now (amount of software, ease of setup, everything just works, desktop design, etc...) and what he dislikes (cannot connect my cellular phone, Infra not working, Xsane demands root privilegues but complains if he is given them, etc) These questions could be structured in the way, that user could pair them. For example, he has a question. In left selection rollup-button he could select WHAT and in second he could select WHY. Example: What is the worst problem for You with Debian? left button options Internet applications Instant messaging Multimedia ... right button options Insufficient helper Lack of applications Lack of functionality ... And so on. Is something like that being worked on? As I look at this concept, I feel one half of problems should be identified even in the very process of creating questions and possible answers for the initial and after-week survey :-) Well, I'm starting to like the idea so I try to open a new thread ;o) Rudy, from Your next answers it seems that we understand each other. God bless You, have a nice day Peter -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Wouter: 1, Ubuntu places the care about the average-Joe-user at first place at worst. Debian dosen't. That's true, but this is improving. Hope I could see it soon. Really. I don't tell the ideology is not valid; I just tell that often this is in the state Users, wait until we solve this ideologically, it may take some years. Well, user dosen't have the years and need things working, so he either does it himself (if he is sortof admin) by downloading, compiling etc, or says Things don't work in Debian and it's too difficult to solve it. I'll better stick with XYZ. Can you give a concrete and extensive example of this? It's hard to discuss such things with hypothetical scenarios. Well, this is exactly the case why I have asked at the very beginning everyone not to try to play the catch-me this way. I have given handful of examples, and if You really care, You'll find even more. Hint: video, graphics, acceleration.. Mplayer can be installed easily by adding the right line to your sources.list. It's all over the internet. Same goes for codecs. Yes, I'll try to replicate that sentence to my aunt or cousin. It will be of great help for sure. Besides, if it is that easy, why Debian just dosen't do it itself? Besides, mplayer is starting to get increasingly obsolete. There are less and less things that cannot be played by either gstreamer or xine. Which both have a *much* saner design, too. This is out of scope, however I also have much stuff that I cannot play on neither of these, but can on Mplayer. And I don't mean Windows Media by that. True type fonts and flash have nice installer packages that will download and install the stuff for you. What's the problem? Did You try it in real? It dosen't work here. Seems that the server it tryes to access dosen't exist. Or it depends on some network configuration, that installer also haven't taken care of. In case you missed it, there is now a java package in non-free for unstable. Once etch releases, it will be in stable. Obviously we cannot go ahead and change stable after the fact; but installing Java on a Debian stable system is no harder than it is on a RedHat or Ubuntu or Fedora or whatnot system. In fact, because of java-package, it's actually easier to manage and uninstall if that ever becomes necessary. I _really_ don't understand what your problem is here. We're speaking about distributions that are intended for daily use, not for experiments. To make it clear, Debian 3.1 Sarge and Ubuntu 6.06. If the Etch has it, that's great. However that dosen't matter answering the Debian is at least as good as Ubuntu, just needs more advertising. Would You advertise Etch? It is clearly advertised for Etch, that it is in TESTING state. Would You recommend it everyone for daily usage? I hope You'ld not. Do you actually have a real and founded gripe, or are you just trolling? Anyone that is in contact with average-joe-users, that are not skilled enough for using root console, will make the image himself. 1b, If things don't work, it's sometimes hard to get them working either. Example: Bug 372719. The OOo 2.0 keeps crashing for 2 months thank to KNOWN bug in security upgrade. Now tell somebody, that Debian is as good _for_average_Joe_user_ as Ubuntu. Or that Debian cares about average_Joe_user at least as much as Ubuntu does. I can't comment on this; I'm writing this on the train, so have no Internet access currently. However, I will add that I haven't seen this bug on the stable systems that I run; even though that of course doesn't have to mean anything, it is at least an indication that the bug is not everywhere, and that it may be a problem to track it down. Not every stable system runs security updates, and even less desktop systems do. That might be a reason why everyone complains is not the case. And might even becouse there are just too few desktop installations of Debian, even less those that run security upgrades, and even less the enterprise installations, that could possibly complain. Average-Joe-user would never complain loudly. And the enterprices, that WOULD complain, often don't run security upgrades either, exactly in fear of such bugs that sneak inside the security upgrades. So there's not much voice to hear. There is an infrastructure to support a fully i18n'ed environment upon installation. It uses language-based tasks, and the installer will install the task of the language you've used in the installer upon completion of the installation. If you chose to install the desktop task, it will also install the desktop-$language task (or was it $language-desktop? not sure, doesn't really matter). Do You speak of Debian Sarge? If true, than either the language-based tasks are incomplete, or don't work. k3b actually has a suggests header for k3b-i18n. This means that if you install k3b using a frontend such as apt-get or aptitude, it will tell you up-front that there is a k3b-i18n
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas? Debian official update sub-release
To make the picture more complete, not only desktop needs current software. The Debian on server lacks sometimes too. Few examples: PHP5, bunch of Clamav-related packages for proxy and mail interaction, Squid3. They're in Etch, however if released as official update of Debian, should do. If update release of Debian has taken place only in half of the regular update cycle (after 9 months), it would be of great help sometimes. Of course, some more recent kernel should take place there too. Peter -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On 8/28/06, Mgr. Peter Tuharsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We're speaking about distributions that are intended for daily use, not for experiments. To make it clear, Debian 3.1 Sarge and Ubuntu 6.06. If the Etch has it, that's great. However that dosen't matter answering the Debian is at least as good as Ubuntu, just needs more advertising. Would You advertise Etch? It is clearly advertised for Etch, that it is in TESTING state. Would You recommend it everyone for daily usage? I hope You'ld not. Hmm, to me this sounds like this is just another way of saying that Debian doesn't release fast enough. The fact is, sarge has been released, whatever your complaining about is never going to be fixed in sarge, so yes, you need to be comparing with Etch. If you can say that there are problems with Etch, then we can address those. complaining about Sarge is not terribly useful. And yes, lots of people are running etch for daily usage. I don't recommend anything to anyone, I just use what works... A little paraphrase: stable means, that feature bugs are kept for the whole release circle; don't expect them to get fixed. Well, ofcourse. Otherwise it wouldn't be stable... Certain types of bugs are fixed, but by and large, you're stuck with the bugs it was released with... Have a nice day, -- Martijn van Oosterhout [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://svana.org/kleptog/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas? Debian official update sub-release
* Mgr. Peter Tuharsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006-08-28 12:05]: To make the picture more complete, not only desktop needs current software. The Debian on server lacks sometimes too. Few examples: PHP5, bunch of Clamav-related packages for proxy and mail interaction, Squid3. They're in Etch, however if released as official update of Debian, should do. Clamav is in volatile, php5 in backports, haven't checked squid3. If update release of Debian has taken place only in half of the regular update cycle (after 9 months), it would be of great help sometimes. Of course, some more recent kernel should take place there too. Whoo no way! I don't want to updated my servers more than once 18-24 months. I don't need php5, specs says php4 and php5, squid does it's job very good and clamav from volatile rounds the package up. You don't run a lot of servers if you want to update them more frequently. yours Martin -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Debian GNU/Linux - The Universal Operating System yath lol, mein feuermelder ist dausicher yath im batteriefach unter der batterie steht yath WARNUNG: BATTERIE ENTFERNT -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas? Debian official update sub-release
On Aug 28, Martin Wuertele [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Whoo no way! I don't want to updated my servers more than once 18-24 months. I don't need php5, specs says php4 and php5, squid does it's job very good and clamav from volatile rounds the package up. Then don't. The problem for people like you is not more too frequent releases but too short support for past releases. You don't run a lot of servers if you want to update them more frequently. You don't run a lot of servers either if you never need versions of many different packages more recent than a couple of years. -- ciao, Marco signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas? Debian official update sub-release
Martin Wuertele wrote: Clamav is in volatile, php5 in backports, haven't checked squid3. The problem is that Debian doesn't speak a lot about nice features like volatile and backports, for instance in the official web site, where it's difficult to see the links. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas? Debian official update sub-release
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Marco d'Itri wrote: On Aug 28, Martin Wuertele [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [snip] You don't run a lot of servers if you want to update them more frequently. You don't run a lot of servers either if you never need versions of many different packages more recent than a couple of years. Sure you do, if the new version has a feature that your application needs, would make things simpler for the developers, would make things simpler for you, etc, etc. For example: Stable has PostgreSQL v7.4, but v8.x have features *needed* by Very Large Databases: - Improved SMP Performance - Table Partitioning - 64-bit Shared Memory - Faster Aggregates - Tablespaces - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Is common sense really valid? For example, it is common sense to white-power racists that whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins are mud people. However, that common sense is obviously wrong. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFE8sshS9HxQb37XmcRApnDAKCJOb58Rq1XQtIHudBvSI9JqQ0F4gCgiCmB m2EJMTXLYSnKnXUZtp0TmFo= =viPw -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas? Debian official update sub-release
* Marco d'Itri [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2006-08-28 12:35]: You don't run a lot of servers either if you never need versions of many different packages more recent than a couple of years. That's when backports and chroots comes in. yours Martin -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] Debian GNU/Linux - The Universal Operating System macan I think I should take a shower and sleep fatalerror macan, I totally agree -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Mon, Aug 28, 2006 at 11:33:00AM +0200, Mgr. Peter Tuharsky wrote: Wouter: I don't tell the ideology is not valid; I just tell that often this is in the state Users, wait until we solve this ideologically, it may take some years. Well, user dosen't have the years and need things working, so he either does it himself (if he is sortof admin) by downloading, compiling etc, or says Things don't work in Debian and it's too difficult to solve it. I'll better stick with XYZ. Can you give a concrete and extensive example of this? It's hard to discuss such things with hypothetical scenarios. Well, this is exactly the case why I have asked at the very beginning everyone not to try to play the catch-me this way. It is not useful to discuss hypothetical scenarios, sorry. I refuse to do that. I have given handful of examples, and if You really care, You'll find even more. Hint: video, graphics, acceleration.. Yes, but most of them were not valid. Mplayer can be installed easily by adding the right line to your sources.list. It's all over the internet. Same goes for codecs. Yes, I'll try to replicate that sentence to my aunt or cousin. It will be of great help for sure. Besides, if it is that easy, why Debian just dosen't do it itself? Because the mplayer people refuse to think about licenses, which means that it is illegal software in many countries. We cannot take that risk. Besides, mplayer is starting to get increasingly obsolete. There are less and less things that cannot be played by either gstreamer or xine. Which both have a *much* saner design, too. This is out of scope, however I also have much stuff that I cannot play on neither of these, but can on Mplayer. And I don't mean Windows Media by that. I didn't say it is obsolete yet, but that it is getting there. True type fonts and flash have nice installer packages that will download and install the stuff for you. What's the problem? Did You try it in real? [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ LC_ALL=C dpkg -l msttcorefonts Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold | Status=Not/Installed/Config-files/Unpacked/Failed-config/Half-installed |/ Err?=(none)/Hold/Reinst-required/X=both-problems (Status,Err: uppercase=bad) ||/ Name VersionDescription +++-==-==- ii msttcorefonts 1.2Installer for Microsoft TrueType core fonts [...] In case you missed it, there is now a java package in non-free for unstable. Once etch releases, it will be in stable. Obviously we cannot go ahead and change stable after the fact; but installing Java on a Debian stable system is no harder than it is on a RedHat or Ubuntu or Fedora or whatnot system. In fact, because of java-package, it's actually easier to manage and uninstall if that ever becomes necessary. I _really_ don't understand what your problem is here. We're speaking about distributions that are intended for daily use, not for experiments. To make it clear, Debian 3.1 Sarge and Ubuntu 6.06. If the Etch has it, that's great. java-package has existed since way before sarge, and is part of that distribution. The regular java package is not, but we obviously cannot just go ahead and destabilize stable just for the sake of a java package. When I said it is in unstable, that was because we are working on getting better integration with java in the *next* stable release. It was not a suggestion that you should start using unstable. However that dosen't matter answering the Debian is at least as good as Ubuntu, just needs more advertising. Would You advertise Etch? It is clearly advertised for Etch, that it is in TESTING state. Would You recommend it everyone for daily usage? I hope You'ld not. That is so totally besides the point it isn't funny anymore. Of course I wouldn't suggest etch for stable environments. But will you at least allow me to point out that the problems you point to have been fixed for the next stable release already? There's nothing we can do to improve sarge now anymore, anyway; so anything you suggest here would result in etch getting better when it releases. Since there's a java package for etch, that particular problem has already been dealt with. (of course, that doesn't make etch and java be totally free of problems, since the sun jdk is in non-free, not main. But still) [...] 1b, If things don't work, it's sometimes hard to get them working either. Example: Bug 372719. The OOo 2.0 keeps crashing for 2 months thank to KNOWN bug in security upgrade. Now tell somebody, that Debian is as good _for_average_Joe_user_ as Ubuntu. Or that Debian cares about average_Joe_user at least as much as Ubuntu does. I can't comment on this; I'm writing this on the train, so have no Internet access currently. However, I will add that I haven't seen this bug on the stable systems that I run; even though that of course doesn't have to mean anything, it
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
At the beginning of my comments, there has been a statement from Rudy: We have no easy-way-to-get-it to tell people why they would want to use Debian. Ubuntu, on the other hand, has achieved to do so, and what they tell that we can't? nothing. and as his message continues (25.08.2006 00:51) I have objected, that if viewed from angle of average-Joe-user, Debian lacks many things to compare with Ubuntu. That's why I'm speaking entirely about the official Debian release, the Debian 3.1 Sarge. Besides, ordinary user, or enterprise, would not choose some testing distribution, and Etch is for the moment not intended for daily work; it is still in beta state and therefore intended only for testers that don't mind losing their data or so. Whoever wants to use computer, not do hacking and testing, will reach for stable system. Comparing latest *stable* release of Debian with latest *stable* release of Ubuntu is therefore appropriate, like it or not. It's not fault of Ubuntu if the results are not too attractive for Sarge (note: Sarge! I don't compare Woody.) If Etch was claimed stable at the time, I would compare him, however he has some half year to go from now. Peter Martijn van Oosterhout wrote / napísal(a): On 8/28/06, Mgr. Peter Tuharsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: We're speaking about distributions that are intended for daily use, not for experiments. To make it clear, Debian 3.1 Sarge and Ubuntu 6.06. If the Etch has it, that's great. However that dosen't matter answering the Debian is at least as good as Ubuntu, just needs more advertising. Would You advertise Etch? It is clearly advertised for Etch, that it is in TESTING state. Would You recommend it everyone for daily usage? I hope You'ld not. Hmm, to me this sounds like this is just another way of saying that Debian doesn't release fast enough. The fact is, sarge has been released, whatever your complaining about is never going to be fixed in sarge, so yes, you need to be comparing with Etch. If you can say that there are problems with Etch, then we can address those. complaining about Sarge is not terribly useful. And yes, lots of people are running etch for daily usage. I don't recommend anything to anyone, I just use what works... A little paraphrase: stable means, that feature bugs are kept for the whole release circle; don't expect them to get fixed. Well, ofcourse. Otherwise it wouldn't be stable... Certain types of bugs are fixed, but by and large, you're stuck with the bugs it was released with... Have a nice day, -- Odchádzajúca správa neobsahuje vírusy, nepoužívam Windows. === Mgr. Peter Tuhársky Referát informatiky Mesto Banská Bystrica ČSA 26 975 39 Banská Bystrica Tel: +421 48 4330 118 Fax: +421 48 411 3575 === -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Mon, 28 Aug 2006 11:33:00 +0200, Mgr. Peter Tuharsky wrote: Mplayer can be installed easily by adding the right line to your sources.list. It's all over the internet. Same goes for codecs. Yes, I'll try to replicate that sentence to my aunt or cousin. It will be of great help for sure. Besides, if it is that easy, why Debian just dosen't do it itself? Are you offering to pay Debian's costs and damages for the resulting patent and copyright lawsuits? Besides, mplayer is starting to get increasingly obsolete. There are less and less things that cannot be played by either gstreamer or xine. Which both have a *much* saner design, too. This is out of scope, however I also have much stuff that I cannot play on neither of these, but can on Mplayer. And I don't mean Windows Media by that. Can you please file bug reports? -- Sam Morris http://robots.org.uk/ PGP key id 1024D/5EA01078 3412 EA18 1277 354B 991B C869 B219 7FDB 5EA0 1078 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Wouter, it seems You don't understand my point of view. I don't question development results in Debian. I, too, couldn't, because so far I haven't met any Etch installation. I read Weekly news and watch the progress. I see there's quite a development inside of Debian. As of release cycle being shortened to 18 months, I wouldn't that call just an improvement -that decision has probably been one of those that has saved Debian from falling behind the scene. So let's clarify the points of view. There has been an idea opened, that could be interpreted in the way, that Debian can fully compare with Ubuntu. I objected, that current official (stable) release of Debian, yes, Sarge, lacks ease of use (because of bunch of reasons) for average-Joe-user if compared with official (stable) Ubuntu. Some people have no problem accepting this. There are many details in UI and basic administration that can be improved in future (Etch?) to make Debian more attractive for ordinary computer users. I'm happy that You point me to cases that are solved with Etch. If some others get fixed, Etch will probably be much better for ordinary users than Sarge is now. Let's hope it will bear the comparison with stable version of Ubuntu 18 months later. That said, mid-way partial-update release could make it a bit bearable I think. Peter Verhelst wrote / napísal(a): On Mon, Aug 28, 2006 at 11:33:00AM +0200, Mgr. Peter Tuharsky wrote: Wouter: I don't tell the ideology is not valid; I just tell that often this is in the state Users, wait until we solve this ideologically, it may take some years. Well, user dosen't have the years and need things working, so he either does it himself (if he is sortof admin) by downloading, compiling etc, or says Things don't work in Debian and it's too difficult to solve it. I'll better stick with XYZ. Can you give a concrete and extensive example of this? It's hard to discuss such things with hypothetical scenarios. Well, this is exactly the case why I have asked at the very beginning everyone not to try to play the catch-me this way. It is not useful to discuss hypothetical scenarios, sorry. I refuse to do that. I have given handful of examples, and if You really care, You'll find even more. Hint: video, graphics, acceleration.. Yes, but most of them were not valid. Mplayer can be installed easily by adding the right line to your sources.list. It's all over the internet. Same goes for codecs. Yes, I'll try to replicate that sentence to my aunt or cousin. It will be of great help for sure. Besides, if it is that easy, why Debian just dosen't do it itself? Because the mplayer people refuse to think about licenses, which means that it is illegal software in many countries. We cannot take that risk. Besides, mplayer is starting to get increasingly obsolete. There are less and less things that cannot be played by either gstreamer or xine. Which both have a *much* saner design, too. This is out of scope, however I also have much stuff that I cannot play on neither of these, but can on Mplayer. And I don't mean Windows Media by that. I didn't say it is obsolete yet, but that it is getting there. True type fonts and flash have nice installer packages that will download and install the stuff for you. What's the problem? Did You try it in real? [EMAIL PROTECTED]:~$ LC_ALL=C dpkg -l msttcorefonts Desired=Unknown/Install/Remove/Purge/Hold | Status=Not/Installed/Config-files/Unpacked/Failed-config/Half-installed |/ Err?=(none)/Hold/Reinst-required/X=both-problems (Status,Err: uppercase=bad) ||/ Name VersionDescription +++-==-==- ii msttcorefonts 1.2Installer for Microsoft TrueType core fonts [...] In case you missed it, there is now a java package in non-free for unstable. Once etch releases, it will be in stable. Obviously we cannot go ahead and change stable after the fact; but installing Java on a Debian stable system is no harder than it is on a RedHat or Ubuntu or Fedora or whatnot system. In fact, because of java-package, it's actually easier to manage and uninstall if that ever becomes necessary. I _really_ don't understand what your problem is here. We're speaking about distributions that are intended for daily use, not for experiments. To make it clear, Debian 3.1 Sarge and Ubuntu 6.06. If the Etch has it, that's great. java-package has existed since way before sarge, and is part of that distribution. The regular java package is not, but we obviously cannot just go ahead and destabilize stable just for the sake of a java package. When I said it is in unstable, that was because we are working on getting better integration with java in the *next* stable release. It was not a suggestion that you should start using unstable. However that dosen't matter answering the Debian is at least as good as Ubuntu, just needs more advertising. Would You
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas? Debian official update sub-release
On Aug 28, Martin Wuertele [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You don't run a lot of servers either if you never need versions of many different packages more recent than a couple of years. That's when backports and chroots comes in. Backports have dubious quality and do not get real security support. -- ciao, Marco signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Am 2006-08-24 17:51:55, schrieb Rudy Godoy: I do believe it's more a matter of relations with press and media than budget. We have no easy-way-to-get-it to tell people why they would want to use Debian. Ubuntu, on the other hand, has achieved to do so, and what they tell that we can't? nothing. All what they advertise we do offer. But we are not good on advertise our OS. What do we do, if one day to another 10 million or more peoples want to use Linux (it does not mater which distribution) ARE WE PREPARED? I asume, the worldwide Linux resources would crash. We need to tell people: Debian is fine for you because it allows you to get your work done and be productive, whether you are an artist, corporate employee, student, doctor, etc. Right... That kind of advertisement, focusing on things that matter for people more than specs and technical details, which are only interesting for those who already in the computing area. I know there is a subproject working on such things, which is great. debian-desktop ? debian-edu ? (Skolelinux) No, I still believe we need more people and relations with press, and not only the technical ones, we should advertise more our work and good experiences like donzka, LinEx, and the others. Not only tell ourselves: we know we are doing things better. We should tell it to others too! Hmmm... Greetings Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi 0033/6/6192519367100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Am 2006-08-25 11:46:20, schrieb Mgr. Peter Tuharsky: 1b, If things don't work, it's sometimes hard to get them working either. Example: Bug 372719. The OOo 2.0 keeps crashing for 2 months thank to KNOWN bug in security upgrade. Now tell somebody, that Debian But OOo 2.0 is not in Stable! 1c, Other cases are when something CAN be done in Debian, and even documentation exists, but it is quite complicated and time consuming, and truly should be much easier. Mostly the installer's playground to make life easier and set up things. For example, to automatically install national fonts and translation packages if the user already entered his location and national data. Right, this is one thing I mis in the installation of X. Same for the console font since it does not fit my needs for [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED]. Using UTF-8 on the console is a nightmare... LatArCyrHeb is no solution since it is not complete. Greetings Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi 0033/6/6192519367100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas? Debian official update sub-release
ciol wrote: Clamav is in volatile, php5 in backports, haven't checked squid3. ... squid3 is in *gosh* testing. The problem is that Debian doesn't speak a lot about nice features like volatile and backports, for instance in the official web site, where it's difficult to see the links. The... err... issue is that these services (snapshots, volatile, backports) are not official project's projects yet and also quite new, hence, not integrated in the current stable installer. It is discussed to change this though. You are correct, though, that they're not widely announced. Regards, Joey -- Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it. -- Donald E. Knuth Please always Cc to me when replying to me on the lists. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas? Debian official update sub-release
On Mon, Aug 28, 2006 at 05:09:54PM +0200, Joey Schulze wrote: ciol wrote: The problem is that Debian doesn't speak a lot about nice features like volatile and backports, for instance in the official web site, where it's difficult to see the links. The... err... issue is that these services (snapshots, volatile, backports) are not official project's projects yet and also quite new, hence, not integrated in the current stable installer. It is discussed to change this though. You are correct, though, that they're not widely announced. If they would become official projects, with official and default support -- including security and installer support -- I would be a lot happier. As it is, it is unclear to me who is building those packages, of what quality they are, and what kind of security support they are receiving. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Mon, Aug 28, 2006 at 01:17:42PM +0200, Mgr. Peter Tuharsky wrote: At the beginning of my comments, there has been a statement from Rudy: We have no easy-way-to-get-it to tell people why they would want to use Debian. Ubuntu, on the other hand, has achieved to do so, and what they tell that we can't? nothing. and as his message continues (25.08.2006 00:51) I have objected, that if viewed from angle of average-Joe-user, Debian lacks many things to compare with Ubuntu. Whoever wants to use computer, not do hacking and testing, will reach for stable system. Comparing latest *stable* release of Debian with latest *stable* release of Ubuntu is therefore appropriate, like it or not. It's not fault of Ubuntu if the results are not too attractive for Then lets look at how stable ubuntu stable is or is not. I know I've seen posts on these lists suggesting that ubuntu stable tends to pull in things from debian unstable[1] and is therefore less stable. If that really is the case then comparing debian stable to ubuntu stable is in fact not a fair comparison (or rather comparing *only* versions of upstream software is not reasonable). Sometime ago I read suggestions that running debian testing is approximately equivalent to running other distributions' stable releases, however I can't seem to find where that came from (too much chatter to pick anything up in a quick google search). So if we're going to talk about a fair comparison, let's make sure we're comparing stability and number of bugs in the release as well. Also, what about bugs that get introduced by other bug or security fixes? How often do they happen in debian compared to other projects, and when they do, how quickly are they found and fixed? What about Debian stable compared to RHEL or Ubuntu server in a serer environment with Debian testing compared to fedora and ubuntu on the desktop? I personally use debian stable on my home server, with a mixed stable/volatile/testing/(few)unstable set of packages on my desktop. The truth is though, once Etch comes out I will probably stick with stable. Certain projects like OpenOffice.org (2.0.x) and Mozilla (1.5.x) are starting to mature to the point where I won't feel that upgrading them (aside from security fixes) frequently is necessary. Back in the day (late 80's, early 90's) users of DOS, and then Windows 3.1, had an os that didn't change much for years at a time, and once you bought a software package you were usually stuck with that version until you bought another one. I think part of what has happened with gnu/linux is that it has taken a significant amount of time to mature with some major components (gnome/kde, mozilla, ooo) only being relative newcomers when compared to apps like MS Word (first release in the early 80's for DOS). Sarge (note: Sarge! I don't compare Woody.) If Etch was claimed stable at the time, I would compare him, however he has some half [1]http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2006/08/msg01116.html -- GnuPG Key Fingerprint 86 F5 81 A5 D4 2E 1F 1C http://gnupg.org And that's my crabbing done for the day. Got it out of the way early, now I have the rest of the afternoon to sniff fragrant tea-roses or strangle cute bunnies or something. -- Michael Devore signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Adam Borowski wrote: On Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 02:01:21AM -0400, Benjamin Seidenberg wrote: Michelle Konzack wrote: Since I have no valid ID-Card (problens with France, since I am origin iranish/turkish witeh illegal german adoptivp arents) I can not enter the NM... nobody can sign legaly my GPG key and more bs. Maybe if I go back to Iran or Turkey it would be possible for me. You can always use a Transnational Republic ID card. I am pretty sure Michelle has at least _some_ sort of ID, even as an illegal alien. And with the current anti-Arab scare she would be already deported were she lacking complete valid papers -- you can sit in peace if you don't travel anywhere, but by browsing debian-devel I get the impression Michelle travels around a lot. And, there is a number of ways to reasonably prove your identity better than an ID. And ID can be gotten by talking to an absent-minded clerk, bribing the said underpaid clerk or even get a nice blank one from Ivan -- so an ID cannot be deemed a solid proof. Michelle, you're not a nobody. Many people know you. If I walked with you to a known figure who knew you for a number of years and he vouched for you, I would be a lot more certain than if I had seen nothing but a smudged photo on an ID. You can bribe or sweet-talk the guy to fool me, but I still would call an university professor or the like someone more trustworthy than a nameless clerk. And I'm sure there's a number of similar people who know you. What would you say about the chief of Polish chapter of FFII? He's a long-time buddy of mine, even though I haven't seen him for a number of years. While not a DD, I don't think his word would have less weight than an ID you can get for $25. Also, the name means little. I don't really care if an upload was done by a person who claims to be named Benjamin Seidenberg, I care that it was done by a person with a history of valid good contributions whose prior work was checked by many people. Whether it was signed by Benjamin Seidenberg doesn't matter until I want to pursue legal action. I don't need your real name to appreciate your deeds -- feeling thankful to astronut works as well. It's the ownership of the key what matters, not the name attached to it. It's important to know that the key is yours, not that it belongs to a Benjamin Seidenberg. This issue was heavily discussed in a previous project thread after the blog post I linked to was published. It incited a huge flame war, which I was referring to in humor. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Le Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 10:00:08PM +0200, Michelle Konzack a écrit : Am 2006-08-25 11:46:20, schrieb Mgr. Peter Tuharsky: 1b, If things don't work, it's sometimes hard to get them working either. Example: Bug 372719. The OOo 2.0 keeps crashing for 2 months thank to KNOWN bug in security upgrade. Now tell somebody, that Debian But OOo 2.0 is not in Stable! Dear Michelle, to be fair with Mgr Tuharsky, I think that it is important to remind that the bug he is talking about in not affecting OpenOffice only, that it was introduced by a security update, and that for various reasons the fix takes months to be released, leaving users with a broken Sarge. I conclude from this that there is a problem of transparency / communication : - The people complaining had the impression that nobody was caring fixing the problem, because there was no apparent activity, and the problem was claimed to be solved. - Many answers to Mgr Tuharsky got were counter-criticisms focusing on OpenOffice, and overlooking the fact that the security update broke many more programs. - The fix was lost in the limbo for some time between two teams, leaving the users reading the bug report in a situation in which they can not decide who to contact to unblock the situation. - The problem is getting solved in silence. Maybe the debian website would deserve a section in which Debian communicates on those issues. After all, I think that they are similar in concept (but not in gravity) to recalls seen in the industry: a broken material was released, so special communication could help to contact the users, explain the problem, and help them to fix it. Have a nice day, -- Charles Plessy http://charles.plessy.org Wako, Saitama, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Charles Plessy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Maybe the debian website would deserve a section in which Debian communicates on those issues. After all, I think that they are similar in concept (but not in gravity) to recalls seen in the industry: a broken material was released, so special communication could help to contact the users, explain the problem, and help them to fix it. Hmm, like a top bugs section on the front page of debian.org? That would be interesting. Specific bugs could be added to the list (and fall off, say, a week after they are closed), and bugs that are seeing a lot of activity could step in blanks when there's not enough manual bugs to fill the list. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Sun, Aug 27, 2006 at 01:05:56AM -0400, Theodore Tso [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree that it would be nice if ifplugd or laptop-net were installed by default, but last I checked Debian didn't install either by default, either. So what's your point? Aren't they part of the laptop task, nowadays ? Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Am Sonntag 27 August 2006 07:05 schrieb Theodore Tso: On Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 04:02:04PM +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote: - installer did not read in the CDs for package lists and the GUI does not even support this (or for any other means of modifying /etc/apt/sources.list) From the menubar. System -- Administration -- Synaptic Package Manager Funny, Synaptic was not installed but something called adept. Guess what you have to do to install Synaptic ;) - /etc/resolv.conf was not present but DHCP client complained about that Hmm, I didn't notice this problem. When the dhcp client started during the install process, it created the /etc/resolv.conf file for me, and subsequent dhcp clients updated the /etc/resolv.conf file information automatically from the DHCP serve. As I said, only a touch /etc/resolv.conf solved the problem. - the root has no password and you must use sudo sucks for many things as the access to root is not consistent (some invocation type can use su programs but those cannot work). That's a philosophical dispute, but it's easily fixed simply by setting a root password if you really want to use a root shell. (Or by just doing sudo bash, of course.) I happen to like having a root user with a password and to su to root, so I set up my system that way. However, I view that as an emacs vs. vi sort of religious dispute. I meant the graphical su variants, IIRC it's called gtksu. Sure, those things are solvable if you know why they do not work and what's actually the difference between *su and sudo. However, the one that installed this machine did not know this (now he does). - X ran with the wrong resolution (typical i915 problem) and with the wrong dpi setting Can't speak to that; my ATI Firegl video worked automatically out of the box --- with 3D accelerated graphics automatically. Xorg seems to be broken here, too, as i915resolution showed me entries where xorg said they were empty. Strange. - /etc/network/interfaces listed non-existant devices and because of WPA, a manual setup of this file is needed I didn't notice that problem. Well, I guess installing wpa_supplicant _and_ network-manager would have solved that problem. - something useful like ifplugd was not installed and the user was puzzled by the fact that plugging in the network cable did not result in network access I agree that it would be nice if ifplugd or laptop-net were installed by default, but last I checked Debian didn't install either by default, either. So what's your point? It's all about expectations. Always keep in mind that the target group differs a lot between Ubuntu and Debian. HS -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
So can we do this? Load kernel modules or even extra udebs from a CD/floppy/usb stick/URL that the user provides during the installation process? Now I think about it, I seem to remember doing this back with boot-floppies, to get an e1000 network controller to be recognised by the installer, IIRC. -- Sam Morris http://robots.org.uk/ PGP key id 1024D/5EA01078 3412 EA18 1277 354B 991B C869 B219 7FDB 5EA0 1078 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Sun, Aug 27, 2006 at 12:03:25PM +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote: Am Sonntag 27 August 2006 07:05 schrieb Theodore Tso: From the menubar. System -- Administration -- Synaptic Package Manager Funny, Synaptic was not installed but something called adept. Guess what you have to do to install Synaptic ;) You probably installed Kubuntu then, not Ubuntu. Michael -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Hendrik Sattler wrote: - something useful like ifplugd was not installed and the user was puzzled by the fact that plugging in the network cable did not result in network access I agree that it would be nice if ifplugd or laptop-net were installed by default, but last I checked Debian didn't install either by default, either. So what's your point? It's all about expectations. Always keep in mind that the target group differs a lot between Ubuntu and Debian. I wouldn't say they differ. Ubuntu targets only a small subset of Debian users. Maybe Debian should simply split the Desktop task in tasksel into two entries: * Desktop - basic: Simple minimal GNOME installation pretty much as it is now, maybe with even less software preinstalled. (I was surprised by the ammount of software that came along with it). * Desktop - stand alone: End-user desktop enviroment where we can safely add fancy integration tricks and extra components that Ubuntu does as well. Just my $0.02 -- Sander Marechal http://www.gnome-hearts.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
maybe backports should be considered a 1st class part of Debian; so in addition to old-stable, stable, testing, and unstable, we could add, stable-useful. The fact of the matter is that the stable distribution today is pretty much useless for desktop users, and useless for people who need to install on modern servers (i.e., anything sold in the last 6 months). I have to agree. Either that or release a small base distribution every 6 months, whose packages are only updated for security / serious bugs and as long as there's no ABI/API changes. The rest of the packages, especially classical applications (Firefox, OO) where users generally want new features could be targeted at these releases, maybe even providing a stable and current version for each - both working with the same base Debian has become too large to release in its entirety with any frequency whatsoever - instead of dropping archs or release requirements I'd rather try to separate OS components from application components . (Maybe I won't have to listen to why can't I just install a new version of X, I can do that under Windows anymore then.) Getting all software from the same source (Debian) is great - as it is now the different flavors are a bit to monolithic for my taste. C. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
This stuff did not even exist when Sarge was released. Half of userland would not fit this hardware, so who cares. Everyone who would like to install a stable Debian release on hardware currently available for purchase. And this non-free stuff is nothing to discuss about. Good for you - people still want to use their hardware :) Not saying that Ubuntu is better, just that stable is utterly useless for everything but reviving old hardware. C. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Lørdag 26 august 2006 15:15, skrev Theodore Tso: No support for: (The * are critical) * SATA Hard Drives (*) * IPW3945 wireless (*) * Intel AD1981 HD Audio (*) * 3D Graphics support on the ATI FireGL V5200 card (propietary kernel module) * Verizon 1xEV-DO Pretty much all of the modern hardware on the T60 is completely unsupported by Debian; and most of the above is supported out of the box by Unbuntu. A list of version numbers on important software packages on the test version of Debian-edu/Skolelinux (The Kubuntu Dapper version number in parenthesis): - Kernel 2.16.2 (2.6.15) - X.org 7.0 (7.0) - KDE 3.5.4 (3.5.2) - Firefox 1.5.0.4 (1.5.0.3) - OpenOffice.org 2.0.3 (2.0.2) Hopefully people will download the image(s) for testing[1] and give us feedback to improve the solution[2]: 1. http://ftp.skolelinux.no/cd-etch-test/debian-edu-i386-binary-1.raw 2. http://wiki.debian.org/DebianEdu When etch is pretty stabilised in November, three months from now, i'll install Skolelinux based on etch on my new Thinkpad X60s. Just now we are improving the laptop support inspired and with reusing work done by the Unbuntu developers. Some new software developed by the Ubuntu team is really good from an end user perspective. We includes that too. Important work is also done to improve the support for thin clients and diskless workstations with the project MueKow[3]. 3. http://wiki.debian.org/LTSPDevelopment There are still patching issues that has to be addressed in Ubuntu to reduce the friction against Debian developers. Debian should be treated as upstream to certain extent, and more that is done today. I believe *Ubuntu will gain by that because of their business model is based on services and tailoring. In general there are still some licencing issues with proprietary decoders for video and other proprietary solutions where free software still does not have a counterpart, and we have to install decoders and such from proprietary vendors (Flash, wmv support etc.). In Norway we also promote support for fri software and have a dialog on governmental level to make support and use of free software as easy as it is when using proprietary solutions. The government has already told us that open standards is their goal[4]. The left wing government elected in 2005 has increase the use of free software as their political platform. They will follow up and strengthen the former right wing party's policy that was “Proprietary formats will no longer be acceptable in communication between citizens and government.” 4. http://europa.eu.int/idabc/en/document/4403/469 I hope that we can use the feedbacks and our experiences in user space to improve Debian and other Debian derivatives. Gnu/Linux systems has still a little fraction of the desktop marked. The Skolelinux project aims to get good solutions on our CDs to the schools. Other distroes has other aims. The most productive approach is to help each other to make the best distro in the world for different groups of users. Best regards Knut Yrvin
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Am Sonntag 27 August 2006 23:30 schrieb Knut Yrvin: A list of version numbers on important software packages on the test version of Debian-edu/Skolelinux (The Kubuntu Dapper version number in parenthesis): - Kernel 2.16.2 (2.6.15) That cannot be correct. HS
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On 8/28/06, Hendrik Sattler [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Am Sonntag 27 August 2006 23:30 schrieb Knut Yrvin: A list of version numbers on important software packages on the test version of Debian-edu/Skolelinux (The Kubuntu Dapper version number in parenthesis): - Kernel 2.16.2 (2.6.15) That cannot be correct. 2.6.16, then... -- Andrew Donnellan http://andrewdonnellan.com http://ajdlinux.blogspot.com Jabber - [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG - hkp://subkeys.pgp.net 0x5D4C0C58 --- Member of Linux Australia - http://linux.org.au Debian user - http://debian.org Get free rewards - http://ezyrewards.com/?id=23484 OpenNIC user - http://www.opennic.unrated.net -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Søndag 27 august 2006 23:48, skrev Hendrik Sattler: - Kernel 2.16.2 (2.6.15) That cannot be correct. Correction. I forgot the digit #6 : Kernel 2.6.16-2 (2.6.15) - K
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On 08/26/06 03:26:12PM +, Sam Morris wrote: On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:02:04 +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote: Am Samstag 26 August 2006 15:15 schrieb Theodore Tso: No support for: (The * are critical) * SATA Hard Drives (*) * Intel AD1981 HD Audio (*) This stuff did not even exist when Sarge was released. Half of userland would not fit this hardware, so who cares. How do other long-lived distributions handle this problem? How does one install RHEL 4 on such a machine? RH releases updated install discs periodically. I haven't had any hardware issues with them so I never compared the contents of the discs but I would assume that they update the kernels with each update release. Jim. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jim Crilly wrote: On 08/26/06 03:26:12PM +, Sam Morris wrote: On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:02:04 +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote: Am Samstag 26 August 2006 15:15 schrieb Theodore Tso: No support for: (The * are critical) * SATA Hard Drives (*) * Intel AD1981 HD Audio (*) This stuff did not even exist when Sarge was released. Half of userland would not fit this hardware, so who cares. How do other long-lived distributions handle this problem? How does one install RHEL 4 on such a machine? RH releases updated install discs periodically. I haven't had any hardware issues with them so I never compared the contents of the discs but I would assume that they update the kernels with each update release. Who would object, and how strenuously, if Stable became Stable-plus- some-newer-stuff? - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Is common sense really valid? For example, it is common sense to white-power racists that whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins are mud people. However, that common sense is obviously wrong. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFE8lyPS9HxQb37XmcRAryHAJ9zSlNl2WmYwM4akuZlYo86SrzqIACghKou 3QCcRFCCIdqw5rCwotQMD7c= =iyxT -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Sun August 27 2006 06:47, Sander Marechal wrote: Hendrik Sattler wrote: It's all about expectations. Always keep in mind that the target group differs a lot between Ubuntu and Debian. I wouldn't say they differ. Ubuntu targets only a small subset of Debian users. Maybe Debian should simply split the Desktop task in tasksel into two entries: `Ubuntu users are a subset of Debian users' Yes, because both, Debian targets all users and Ubuntu is a Debian user. No, because Ubuntu clearly serves a group that Debian doesn't. * Desktop - basic: Simple minimal GNOME installation pretty much as it is now, maybe with even less software preinstalled. (I was surprised by the ammount of software that came along with it). * Desktop - stand alone: End-user desktop enviroment where we can safely add fancy integration tricks and extra components that Ubuntu does as well. If by we you mean Debian... great success in that endeavour would essentially put Ubuntu out of business, I don't think that is what either wants. Debian should provide the means for Ubuntu to add fancy integration tricks and extra components in a safe way. Technically, the means boils down to the infrastructure and abstractions needed to trivially fork a *Debian* package (rather than create an *Ubuntu* package.) It would be really cool if Debian's Ubuntu Desktop task resulted in an Ubuntu Desktop system; an even better result would be a Debian system with the appropriate sources, pinnings, and configs needed to replicate an Ubuntu Desktop for just those things Ubuntu does differently. Ubuntu's installer would presumably result in a streamlined and focused system, while Debian would be capable of producing and managing a blend of Ubuntu's desktop, Whoever's server, whatever, etc., as required. - Bruce -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Sun, Aug 27, 2006 at 10:37:58PM -0600, Bruce Sass wrote: On Sun August 27 2006 06:47, Sander Marechal wrote: * Desktop - basic: Simple minimal GNOME installation pretty much as it is now, maybe with even less software preinstalled. (I was surprised by the ammount of software that came along with it). * Desktop - stand alone: End-user desktop enviroment where we can safely add fancy integration tricks and extra components that Ubuntu does as well. If by we you mean Debian... great success in that endeavour would essentially put Ubuntu out of business, I don't think that is what either wants. I don't care one way or another if it puts Ubuntu out of business (or Canonical, as it were), but I want Debian to provide a top-notch desktop experience for Debian's sake. Deferring to Ubuntu for this work is the worst sort of defeatist nonsense and I will not to bow to it. I like collaborating with the Ubuntu people, but I refuse to compromise my own work or Debian as a project just so that they can excel. - David Nusinow -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
David Nusinow wrote: On Sun, Aug 27, 2006 at 10:37:58PM -0600, Bruce Sass wrote: On Sun August 27 2006 06:47, Sander Marechal wrote: * Desktop - basic: Simple minimal GNOME installation pretty much as it is now, maybe with even less software preinstalled. (I was surprised by the ammount of software that came along with it). * Desktop - stand alone: End-user desktop enviroment where we can safely add fancy integration tricks and extra components that Ubuntu does as well. If by we you mean Debian... great success in that endeavour would essentially put Ubuntu out of business, I don't think that is what either wants. I don't care one way or another if it puts Ubuntu out of business (or Canonical, as it were), but I want Debian to provide a top-notch desktop experience for Debian's sake. I agree. Just because Debian doesn't target the newbie's and Windows switchers that much, doesn't mean that Debian people don't want a nicely integrated desktop. A Debian desktop would be different from an Ubuntu desktop because it targets different people. -- Sander Marechal -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Michelle Konzack wrote: Since I have no valid ID-Card (problens with France, since I am origin iranish/turkish witeh illegal german adoptivp arents) I can not enter the NM... nobody can sign legaly my GPG key and more bs. Maybe if I go back to Iran or Turkey it would be possible for me. You can always use a Transnational Republic ID card. *ducks* Benjamin [ For those who don't understand, read http://blog.madduck.net/geek/2006.05.24-tr-id-at-keysigning ] signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 11:56:21AM -0500, John Goerzen wrote: This sort of vague anecdotal evidence has been repeated over and over. It may be true, but as far as I know, nobody has yet to come forth with reporting specific problems in Debian, only x worked out of the box in ubuntu but not in Debian. OK, I have a brand-spanking new IBM/Lenovo T60p laptop with nice, fast SATA Drives, Intel Dual Core CPU's; 1600x1200 display --- sexy machine. Debian stable doesn't run on it. Ubuntu 6.06 LTS installed out of the box on it. So the laptop that I run when I give presentations at conferences says Ubuntu Breeze when I fire it up, and not Debian. My brand-spanking new home file server with a a real hardware RAID controller (Areca) and 16 hot-swap SATA drives (6 of them currently populated with 500 GB SATA II drives), with two dual-core Xeon chips is running Ubuntu Breezy 6.06 LTS, because Ubuntu supported it out of the box. Debian stable doesn't even have a chance of supporting this box. I'm not sure if Debian etch will support it, since the Areca RAID card is an out-of-tree (although GPL) device driver, but that's largely irrelevant, since I'm not going to run Debian unstable on a production file server! How many more concrete example would you like? - Ted P.S. So at the moment, I'm doing my debian development work using some crash-and-burn machines at home, and using some debian chroots created using debootstrap. It would be nice if I could help doing more dogfood testing on etch, and finding and submitting bug reports before etch shipped --- but life is short, and Ubuntu worked out of the box on my laptop, and it would have really difficult to figure out how to get Debian installed onto a laptop SATA drive. (And when I say work, I mean including making use of a built-in wireless on a PCI express bus that requires a driver that uses restricted firmware and a binary-only userspace daemon. So if people want to be pure, that's fine, but I'm not going give up using wireless just for ideological purity; I just won't be using a Debian supplied kernel, and once again, Ubuntu works out of the box. Oh well) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Fri, Aug 25, 2006 at 11:42:56PM -0400, Theodore Tso wrote: On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 11:56:21AM -0500, John Goerzen wrote: This sort of vague anecdotal evidence has been repeated over and over. It may be true, but as far as I know, nobody has yet to come forth with reporting specific problems in Debian, only x worked out of the box in ubuntu but not in Debian. OK, I have a brand-spanking new IBM/Lenovo T60p laptop with nice, fast SATA Drives, Intel Dual Core CPU's; 1600x1200 display --- sexy machine. Debian stable doesn't run on it. Ubuntu 6.06 LTS installed Out of curiousity, why not? [ snip ] My brand-spanking new home file server with a a real hardware RAID controller (Areca) and 16 hot-swap SATA drives (6 of them currently populated with 500 GB SATA II drives), with two dual-core Xeon chips is running Ubuntu Breezy 6.06 LTS, because Ubuntu supported it out of the box. Debian stable doesn't even have a chance of supporting this [ snip ] How many more concrete example would you like? That's fine, thanks ;-) BTW, I wrote DFS[1] for just such a similar situation, so I could easily build myself a CD suitable for installation with whatever kernel and tools I wanted. I originally used it for a server that was to use LVM and a hardware RAID controller, back in the days before stable's installer supported either LVM or that particular controller. It sounds, though, that your problem could be solved if we revved the kernel in stable (and the installer) more often. See my message on -project about that. [1] http://people.debian.org/~jgoerzen/dfs -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 02:16:53AM -0500, John Goerzen wrote: OK, I have a brand-spanking new IBM/Lenovo T60p laptop with nice, fast SATA Drives, Intel Dual Core CPU's; 1600x1200 display --- sexy machine. Debian stable doesn't run on it. Ubuntu 6.06 LTS installed Out of curiousity, why not? No support for: (The * are critical) * SATA Hard Drives (*) * IPW3945 wireless (*) * Intel AD1981 HD Audio (*) * 3D Graphics support on the ATI FireGL V5200 card (propietary kernel module) * Verizon 1xEV-DO Pretty much all of the modern hardware on the T60 is completely unsupported by Debian; and most of the above is supported out of the box by Unbuntu. It sounds, though, that your problem could be solved if we revved the kernel in stable (and the installer) more often. See my message on -project about that. A lot of the problems would be solved with that, yes. Depending on backports so you don't have to depend on antique versions of OpenOffice, firefox, etc. Maybe the answer is getting modern kernels and modern installers should be adopted by backports.org. Or maybe backports should be considered a 1st class part of Debian; so in addition to old-stable, stable, testing, and unstable, we could add, stable-useful. The fact of the matter is that the stable distribution today is pretty much useless for desktop users, and useless for people who need to install on modern servers (i.e., anything sold in the last 6 months). But yet, we claim that our highest goals in our social contract is to serve our users. Sure. and anything that stable isn't useful for are simply not our users, but they become Ubuntu's users or Fedora's users instead. - Ted -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Am Samstag 26 August 2006 15:15 schrieb Theodore Tso: No support for: (The * are critical) * SATA Hard Drives (*) * Intel AD1981 HD Audio (*) This stuff did not even exist when Sarge was released. Half of userland would not fit this hardware, so who cares. * IPW3945 wireless (*) * 3D Graphics support on the ATI FireGL V5200 card (propietary kernel module) And this non-free stuff is nothing to discuss about. Additionally, Ubuntu is not more usable for wireless networks than Debian: the network configuration only support the useless WEP, no WPA. Some things in Ubuntu are so broken that it's hard to believe. I just repaired the laptop of a friend with Ubuntu 6.06: - installer did not read in the CDs for package lists and the GUI does not even support this (or for any other means of modifying /etc/apt/sources.list) - /etc/resolv.conf was not present but DHCP client complained about that - the root has no password and you must use sudo sucks for many things as the access to root is not consistent (some invocation type can use su programs but those cannot work). Additonal problems included: - X ran with the wrong resolution (typical i915 problem) and with the wrong dpi setting - /etc/network/interfaces listed non-existant devices and because of WPA, a manual setup of this file is needed - something useful like ifplugd was not installed and the user was puzzled by the fact that plugging in the network cable did not result in network access Just too much stuff for the Ubuntu target group. I did not dig deeper after that. Debian doesn't tell you about happy sunshine but neither does Ubuntu keep up its promises. Maybe the answer is getting modern kernels and modern installers should be adopted by backports.org. That will not be enough, newer kernels require newer userland stuff. If you do all that (kernel, apps, X, etc.) with backports, you can as well use Debian testing. The fact of the matter is that the stable distribution today is pretty much useless for desktop users, and useless for people who need to install on modern servers (i.e., anything sold in the last 6 months). I agree that stable revisions could be a bit more than what they are now (mainly updated kernels for the installer). HS pgpTk7O8mjAVN.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hendrik Sattler wrote: Am Samstag 26 August 2006 15:15 schrieb Theodore Tso: No support for: (The * are critical) * SATA Hard Drives (*) * Intel AD1981 HD Audio (*) This stuff did not even exist when Sarge was released. Half of userland would not fit this hardware, so who cares. The other half of userland cares. - -- Ron Johnson, Jr. Jefferson LA USA Is common sense really valid? For example, it is common sense to white-power racists that whites are superior to blacks, and that those with brown skins are mud people. However, that common sense is obviously wrong. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.5 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFE8GbHS9HxQb37XmcRAgOLAJ49eIWyDGdKrviB+x4gNfKs7UOKHwCeNBLv eergybDveiAb+/t/ghqQGLY= =Zc4d -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:02:04 +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote: Am Samstag 26 August 2006 15:15 schrieb Theodore Tso: No support for: (The * are critical) * SATA Hard Drives (*) * Intel AD1981 HD Audio (*) This stuff did not even exist when Sarge was released. Half of userland would not fit this hardware, so who cares. How do other long-lived distributions handle this problem? How does one install RHEL 4 on such a machine? -- Sam Morris http://robots.org.uk/ PGP key id 1024D/5EA01078 3412 EA18 1277 354B 991B C869 B219 7FDB 5EA0 1078 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Fri, Aug 25, 2006 at 11:46:20AM +0200, Mgr. Peter Tuharsky wrote: I cannot 100% agree with You, althought Your point is for sure partially valid. I really don't believe that Debian can equal itself with Ubuntu in terms of user friendliness. There is so much to say about that, that I hardly can remember the very concrete cases, so please don't attack me on that basis. I use Debian for 4 years now and my impression about it is valid, because is based on facing and (if lucky) fixing problems. Many of them I have happily forgotten right after fixing, but the allround impression about Debian's user friendliness remains. 1, Ubuntu places the care about the average-Joe-user at first place at worst. Debian dosen't. That's true, but this is improving. Moreover, Debian tries to cater for everyone, rather than just the average Joe-user. We're not there yet, especially not in case of the average Joe-user, but personally I prefer to have a focus on more than just one small subset of people. 1a, Often it seems that ideological problems put anything else aside. There are cases where this is true, but they are more of the exception than the rule. This is also true for Ubuntu, BTW. They, too, separate free software from non-free software. I don't tell the ideology is not valid; I just tell that often this is in the state Users, wait until we solve this ideologically, it may take some years. Well, user dosen't have the years and need things working, so he either does it himself (if he is sortof admin) by downloading, compiling etc, or says Things don't work in Debian and it's too difficult to solve it. I'll better stick with XYZ. Can you give a concrete and extensive example of this? It's hard to discuss such things with hypothetical scenarios. Others care about ideology too, but by the time MAKE THE THINGS WORK SOMEHOW as painless as possible for the end user, until the ideologists say their last word. Simple examples: Mplayer, codecs, M$ True Type fonts, Java, flash. Mplayer can be installed easily by adding the right line to your sources.list. It's all over the internet. Same goes for codecs. Besides, mplayer is starting to get increasingly obsolete. There are less and less things that cannot be played by either gstreamer or xine. Which both have a *much* saner design, too. True type fonts and flash have nice installer packages that will download and install the stuff for you. What's the problem? In case you missed it, there is now a java package in non-free for unstable. Once etch releases, it will be in stable. Obviously we cannot go ahead and change stable after the fact; but installing Java on a Debian stable system is no harder than it is on a RedHat or Ubuntu or Fedora or whatnot system. In fact, because of java-package, it's actually easier to manage and uninstall if that ever becomes necessary. I _really_ don't understand what your problem is here. Do you actually have a real and founded gripe, or are you just trolling? 1b, If things don't work, it's sometimes hard to get them working either. Example: Bug 372719. The OOo 2.0 keeps crashing for 2 months thank to KNOWN bug in security upgrade. Now tell somebody, that Debian is as good _for_average_Joe_user_ as Ubuntu. Or that Debian cares about average_Joe_user at least as much as Ubuntu does. I can't comment on this; I'm writing this on the train, so have no Internet access currently. However, I will add that I haven't seen this bug on the stable systems that I run; even though that of course doesn't have to mean anything, it is at least an indication that the bug is not everywhere, and that it may be a problem to track it down. Of course that there always will be bugs. It's normal in evoluting project; We are mankind and always do mistakes. However, facing them and solving (or not solving) makes a picture about our priorities and goals. In case of Debian, average-Joe-user for sure is not a priority; jokes aside. Actually, our social contract shows that they are. 1c, Other cases are when something CAN be done in Debian, and even documentation exists, but it is quite complicated and time consuming, and truly should be much easier. Mostly the installer's playground to make life easier and set up things. For example, to automatically install national fonts and translation packages if the user already entered his location and national data. I use K3B and has been ready to contribute the Slovak translation. Only on K3B's site I realised that translation exists. Then I have found the k3b-l18n package, and whoila, K3B is localised. And so on. There is an infrastructure to support a fully i18n'ed environment upon installation. It uses language-based tasks, and the installer will install the task of the language you've used in the installer upon completion of the installation. If you chose to install the desktop task, it will also install the desktop-$language task (or was it
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 04:02:04PM +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote: Additionally, Ubuntu is not more usable for wireless networks than Debian: the network configuration only support the useless WEP, no WPA. I recently bought a System76 laptop with Ubuntu 6.06 pre-installed, and Network Manager connects to my university's wireless network without problem. They only use IEEE 802.1x + Dynamic WEP, but wpa_supplicant supports TKIP and CCMP too. - /etc/network/interfaces listed non-existant devices and because of WPA, a manual setup of this file is needed Not in my experience. I've handled all network details through Network Manager on this laptop. - something useful like ifplugd was not installed and the user was puzzled by the fact that plugging in the network cable did not result in network access I just plugged an Ethernet cable in, and Network Manager detected it and switched to it immediately. I just removed it, and it switched back to the wireless network. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:26:12 + (UTC), Sam Morris [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:02:04 +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote: Am Samstag 26 August 2006 15:15 schrieb Theodore Tso: No support for: (The * are critical) * SATA Hard Drives (*) * Intel AD1981 HD Audio (*) This stuff did not even exist when Sarge was released. Half of userland would not fit this hardware, so who cares. How do other long-lived distributions handle this problem? How does one install RHEL 4 on such a machine? By downloading pre-compiled kernel modules (usually from the hardware vendor, or from another vendor that ships the same hardware). -- Hubert Chan - email Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.uhoreg.ca/ PGP/GnuPG key: 1024D/124B61FA (Key available at wwwkeys.pgp.net) Fingerprint: 96C5 012F 5F74 A5F7 1FF7 5291 AF29 C719 124B 61FA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Am Samstag 26 August 2006 21:34 schrieb Matthew R. Dempsky: On Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 04:02:04PM +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote: Additionally, Ubuntu is not more usable for wireless networks than Debian: the network configuration only support the useless WEP, no WPA. I recently bought a System76 laptop with Ubuntu 6.06 pre-installed, and Network Manager connects to my university's wireless network without problem. They only use IEEE 802.1x + Dynamic WEP, but wpa_supplicant supports TKIP and CCMP too. WEP works with network manager but how did you manage WPA via wpa_supplicant with the GUI setup tools? It only offered WEP when I looked at it. However, weplab was just packaged to show you how useless WEP is. - /etc/network/interfaces listed non-existant devices and because of WPA, a manual setup of this file is needed Not in my experience. I've handled all network details through Network Manager on this laptop. AFAIK, no released version of network manager supports WPA. HS -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 11:56:21AM -0500, John Goerzen wrote: Because, hardware support seems to be better in Ubutuntu than in Debian? I've not tested it by myself, but I've heard from many people claiming that their hardware (especially Laptop hardware) works perfectly out of the box with Ubuntu but is a PITA to get working on Debian. This sort of vague anecdotal evidence has been repeated over and over. It may be true, but as far as I know, nobody has yet to come forth with reporting specific problems in Debian, only x worked out of the box in ubuntu but not in Debian. Debian shipped XFree86 with its last stable release. This lacked support for a significant number of then newer cards. Of course this sort of thing will be remedied for Etch, for example we'll have support for intel's unreleased 965 chip. But this isn't simple anecdotal evidence, it's pretty clear that this drove a huge number of users from debian. I noticed a massive flood of people coming to #debian saying Wow, now that Debian has X.org I can use it again instead of Ubuntu![0] Even if we don't autodetect and download the non-free X drivers, Debian will support people's video cards on newer hardware when it's released. This, along with providing SATA support out of the box, should go a long way towards solving this issue in the short term. - David Nusinow [0] This is, of course, anecdotal evidence :-) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Sat, 2006-08-26 at 22:00 +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote: Not in my experience. I've handled all network details through Network Manager on this laptop. AFAIK, no released version of network manager supports WPA. AFAIK, network manager uses wpasupplicant -- Yves-Alexis -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 02:01:21AM -0400, Benjamin Seidenberg wrote: Michelle Konzack wrote: Since I have no valid ID-Card (problens with France, since I am origin iranish/turkish witeh illegal german adoptivp arents) I can not enter the NM... nobody can sign legaly my GPG key and more bs. Maybe if I go back to Iran or Turkey it would be possible for me. You can always use a Transnational Republic ID card. I am pretty sure Michelle has at least _some_ sort of ID, even as an illegal alien. And with the current anti-Arab scare she would be already deported were she lacking complete valid papers -- you can sit in peace if you don't travel anywhere, but by browsing debian-devel I get the impression Michelle travels around a lot. And, there is a number of ways to reasonably prove your identity better than an ID. And ID can be gotten by talking to an absent-minded clerk, bribing the said underpaid clerk or even get a nice blank one from Ivan -- so an ID cannot be deemed a solid proof. Michelle, you're not a nobody. Many people know you. If I walked with you to a known figure who knew you for a number of years and he vouched for you, I would be a lot more certain than if I had seen nothing but a smudged photo on an ID. You can bribe or sweet-talk the guy to fool me, but I still would call an university professor or the like someone more trustworthy than a nameless clerk. And I'm sure there's a number of similar people who know you. What would you say about the chief of Polish chapter of FFII? He's a long-time buddy of mine, even though I haven't seen him for a number of years. While not a DD, I don't think his word would have less weight than an ID you can get for $25. Also, the name means little. I don't really care if an upload was done by a person who claims to be named Benjamin Seidenberg, I care that it was done by a person with a history of valid good contributions whose prior work was checked by many people. Whether it was signed by Benjamin Seidenberg doesn't matter until I want to pursue legal action. I don't need your real name to appreciate your deeds -- feeling thankful to astronut works as well. It's the ownership of the key what matters, not the name attached to it. It's important to know that the key is yours, not that it belongs to a Benjamin Seidenberg. -- 1KB // Microsoft corollary to Hanlon's razor: // Never attribute to stupidity what can be // adequately explained by malice. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Am Samstag 26 August 2006 23:03 schrieb Yves-Alexis Perez: On Sat, 2006-08-26 at 22:00 +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote: Not in my experience. I've handled all network details through Network Manager on this laptop. AFAIK, no released version of network manager supports WPA. AFAIK, network manager uses wpasupplicant Indeed, thanks for the pointer. HS -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 01:19:47PM -0600, Hubert Chan wrote: On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:26:12 + (UTC), Sam Morris [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:02:04 +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote: Am Samstag 26 August 2006 15:15 schrieb Theodore Tso: No support for: (The * are critical) * SATA Hard Drives (*) * Intel AD1981 HD Audio (*) This stuff did not even exist when Sarge was released. Half of userland would not fit this hardware, so who cares. How do other long-lived distributions handle this problem? How does one install RHEL 4 on such a machine? By downloading pre-compiled kernel modules (usually from the hardware vendor, or from another vendor that ships the same hardware). How do you get that on the install CD-ROM? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 10:00:01PM +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote: WEP works with network manager but how did you manage WPA via wpa_supplicant with the GUI setup tools? It only offered WEP when I looked at it. I have to choose ``Connect to Other Wireless Network...'' (or whatever the option in nm-applet is) to get the WPA choices. Not sure if this is just because I don't have any true WPA networks, and NM is being too smart for me, or a limitation of nm-applet. AFAIK, no released version of network manager supports WPA. It does since 0.6 (available in Dapper). -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 21:29:37 -0500, John Goerzen [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: On Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 01:19:47PM -0600, Hubert Chan wrote: On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 15:26:12 + (UTC), Sam Morris [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: [...] How do other long-lived distributions handle this problem? How does one install RHEL 4 on such a machine? By downloading pre-compiled kernel modules (usually from the hardware vendor, or from another vendor that ships the same hardware). How do you get that on the install CD-ROM? You don't. (Sorry, I probably should have included this in my original message.) The RHEL 4 (and similar distributions) installer at some point asks you if you want to load an external module. You stick in a specially formatted floppy, tell the installer to load the module from the floppy, and then it loads the module and detects your hardware. (The exact details are sketchy -- the only time I did it was several months ago, in the middle of installing a whole bunch of new machines, so I don't remember all the details. But that's the basic idea.) (Note: I'm not the administrator for those machines. Otherwise, they'd be running some flavour of Debian.) FWIW, the Windows installer does a similar thing, as well. -- Hubert Chan - email Jabber: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.uhoreg.ca/ PGP/GnuPG key: 1024D/124B61FA (Key available at wwwkeys.pgp.net) Fingerprint: 96C5 012F 5F74 A5F7 1FF7 5291 AF29 C719 124B 61FA -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 04:02:04PM +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote: Am Samstag 26 August 2006 15:15 schrieb Theodore Tso: No support for: (The * are critical) * SATA Hard Drives (*) * Intel AD1981 HD Audio (*) This stuff did not even exist when Sarge was released. Half of userland would not fit this hardware, so who cares. Umm, the people owning this laptop who choose Ubuntu instead of Debian care. - installer did not read in the CDs for package lists and the GUI does not even support this (or for any other means of modifying /etc/apt/sources.list) From the menubar. System -- Administration -- Synaptic Package Manager Wait for the package manager to come up, click on Settings -- Respositories There is an Add CDROM button, and you just click on it. (No need to run vi, or emacs, or need to understand the /etc/apt/sources.list format.) Seems pretty user-friendly to me. - /etc/resolv.conf was not present but DHCP client complained about that Hmm, I didn't notice this problem. When the dhcp client started during the install process, it created the /etc/resolv.conf file for me, and subsequent dhcp clients updated the /etc/resolv.conf file information automatically from the DHCP serve. - the root has no password and you must use sudo sucks for many things as the access to root is not consistent (some invocation type can use su programs but those cannot work). That's a philosophical dispute, but it's easily fixed simply by setting a root password if you really want to use a root shell. (Or by just doing sudo bash, of course.) I happen to like having a root user with a password and to su to root, so I set up my system that way. However, I view that as an emacs vs. vi sort of religious dispute. - X ran with the wrong resolution (typical i915 problem) and with the wrong dpi setting Can't speak to that; my ATI Firegl video worked automatically out of the box --- with 3D accelerated graphics automatically. - /etc/network/interfaces listed non-existant devices and because of WPA, a manual setup of this file is needed I didn't notice that problem. - something useful like ifplugd was not installed and the user was puzzled by the fact that plugging in the network cable did not result in network access I agree that it would be nice if ifplugd or laptop-net were installed by default, but last I checked Debian didn't install either by default, either. So what's your point? - Ted -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Sat, Aug 26, 2006 at 03:26:12PM +, Sam Morris wrote: On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 16:02:04 +0200, Hendrik Sattler wrote: Am Samstag 26 August 2006 15:15 schrieb Theodore Tso: No support for: (The * are critical) * SATA Hard Drives (*) * Intel AD1981 HD Audio (*) This stuff did not even exist when Sarge was released. Half of userland would not fit this hardware, so who cares. How do other long-lived distributions handle this problem? How does one install RHEL 4 on such a machine? RHEL4 has updated kernels/installers that have additional device drivers added. And of course it helps that Red Hat has new releases somewhat more frequently than Debian does with its stable releases; but that's one of the downsides of relying on an all-volunteer engineering base. Things get done... whenever. - Ted -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Thu, 24 Aug 2006, Russ Allbery wrote: We really need to put our heads together and come up with a good system for managing pre-built kernel modules for the kernels in Debian. It's a much more widespread problem than just a question of free vs. non-free. It's possible to do right now, but it involves a ton of manual work by the maintainer every time the list of officially supported kernels changes, and pretty much every upload goes through NEW. I think that to have a really good solution, we're going to need a larger plan that includes changes to the archive management software as well. I'd love to see this be a priority for etch+1. There's already work being done in that direction, please check out with the kernel team. AFAIK there's a linux-modules-extra- source package created to auto-build all those modules. And it's also something that I would love to see completed sooner rather than later. I've hoping for something like that for years. Cheers, -- Raphaël Hertzog Premier livre français sur Debian GNU/Linux : http://www.ouaza.com/livre/admin-debian/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
I cannot 100% agree with You, althought Your point is for sure partially valid. I really don't believe that Debian can equal itself with Ubuntu in terms of user friendliness. There is so much to say about that, that I hardly can remember the very concrete cases, so please don't attack me on that basis. I use Debian for 4 years now and my impression about it is valid, because is based on facing and (if lucky) fixing problems. Many of them I have happily forgotten right after fixing, but the allround impression about Debian's user friendliness remains. 1, Ubuntu places the care about the average-Joe-user at first place at worst. Debian dosen't. 1a, Often it seems that ideological problems put anything else aside. I don't tell the ideology is not valid; I just tell that often this is in the state Users, wait until we solve this ideologically, it may take some years. Well, user dosen't have the years and need things working, so he either does it himself (if he is sortof admin) by downloading, compiling etc, or says Things don't work in Debian and it's too difficult to solve it. I'll better stick with XYZ. Others care about ideology too, but by the time MAKE THE THINGS WORK SOMEHOW as painless as possible for the end user, until the ideologists say their last word. Simple examples: Mplayer, codecs, M$ True Type fonts, Java, flash. 1b, If things don't work, it's sometimes hard to get them working either. Example: Bug 372719. The OOo 2.0 keeps crashing for 2 months thank to KNOWN bug in security upgrade. Now tell somebody, that Debian is as good _for_average_Joe_user_ as Ubuntu. Or that Debian cares about average_Joe_user at least as much as Ubuntu does. Of course that there always will be bugs. It's normal in evoluting project; We are mankind and always do mistakes. However, facing them and solving (or not solving) makes a picture about our priorities and goals. In case of Debian, average-Joe-user for sure is not a priority; jokes aside. 1c, Other cases are when something CAN be done in Debian, and even documentation exists, but it is quite complicated and time consuming, and truly should be much easier. Mostly the installer's playground to make life easier and set up things. For example, to automatically install national fonts and translation packages if the user already entered his location and national data. I use K3B and has been ready to contribute the Slovak translation. Only on K3B's site I realised that translation exists. Then I have found the k3b-l18n package, and whoila, K3B is localised. And so on. 2, The current software gets into main distribution too slowly, too too slowly. Yes, of course, stability, security.. Think about, say, Mozilla Firefox. We keep in repository some 1.0.3 version? (I don't really know, I prefer using current stable release, this time 1.5.0.6) I doubt that mozilla.org supports either way that ancient version. Is it even possible to keep track with _all_ security and stability updates and backport them to that version? I really doubt. I can imagine, that the Debian's 1.0.3 version is no way more secure nor stable than standard 1.5.0.6. We should, for certain kinds of software, shorten the release cycle to, say, 6 months. Debian can afford the luxury of keeping the basic system infrastructure for 18 months, however the desktop software grows very fast, user's often depend on its functionality (OpenOffice.org import capabilities to mention some), and it's nearly impossible to maintain that old software in meaningful way. And who will ever use that ancient versions at the end.. Especially painful in the end time of release's lifecycle. 3, Desktop functionality Just try to compare, what do we offer with standard Debian desktop and how much of that really works at the end, and how much does Ubuntu offer. Try to do some real-world testing; ask the average-Joe-user. Just put him in front of standard Debian 3.1 Sarge desktop after installation, and Ubuntu 6.06 desktop right after installation, without any admin's actions. Let him perform his routine tasks: setting up the mailbox, Internet, printer, browse, play a flash game, write a document and print it, play a video or music. Try it Yourself and try to avoid any non-straightforward actions. Avoid cheating by using administrator's skills. Try to use only what the desktop offers, don't even open the console. You will be surprised. Conclusion: Debian lacks in the means of propagation, yes. Debian much more lacks the focus on average desktop user. Maybe, Etch will bring some fresh air in here. However, we cannot compare the testing versions: First, many things can change until it becomes stable. Remember the Vista and advertised features in the past :o) Second, Etch is hardly installable for average-Joe-user and I doubt it is useful enough in its current state. To be more polite, let's say, that Joe should have been very lucky if he was able
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Am 2006-08-24 11:12:04, schrieb John Goerzen: On Wed, Aug 23, 2006 at 12:05:53PM +0200, Michelle Konzack wrote: Am 2006-07-28 12:43:55, schrieb John Goerzen: I like the fact that a base Debian install is only 100MB. Most of Debian's competitors are 10 times that. Ist now over 200 MByte... No. I've been doing a ton of etch installs with cdebootstrap lately, and it's still just under 100MB. 97 or so if memory serves. A ton better than the RHEL/CentOS situation, where the stripped-down server install is over 1GB. Do you know, WHY I use Debian? In 03/1999 Windows NT 4.0 Server had leaved me and I had to choose a new Operating System, BSD or Linux... The first thing I needed was a Router... = LRP (The Linux Router Project) Realy nice and Floppy based and it was working from the first day with my 2 MBit Cable Modem in Strasbourg. Then a Workstation... Hmmm, have found the DLD (Deutsche Linux Distribution) version 5.0 and the 6.0 BUT the Workstation Setup had tried to install over 800 MByte of stuff on my little K6/200... Even my try to strip the installation failed... Later DLD was sold by RedHat Then I was interested HOW LRP was working and I found out, IT'S Debian 2.1 codname Slink... OK downloaded the 7 Floppies (Rescue, driver and 5x Base)! Wow it worked from scratch, my 3c509 and 3c905 are recognized immediatly After playing arround and leard HOW DIFFICULT it is to find good documentation (at this time) I have found a CD Seller (Heiko Schlitterman) where I have bought the 4 CD's (2 bin + 2 src) OK, happy I am, tried to install the rest of the System... Oops... 1,6 Gbyte - a little bit to much. Thanks to apt-cache and ap-get... and I have leaned very fast how to install light Systems... I have installed one Package after one... x-window-system, fvwm, netscape StarOffice 5.2, ... Then I have encountered that I have a full blown System of less then 500 MByte... And the other Distribution hat tried to install Gimicks I necer used under WfW 3.11 and Win NT 4.0 Server/Workstation Today I have a full blown Workstation consuming arround 1.1 GByte including Mozilla and OpenOffice in 6 languages and my fvwm supporting curently 11 languages (Translated my self my live partner and friends) Debian is great ! -- and I hope it will stay like this. Since I am working with underdeveloped countries It is NOT possible for me, using Live-CD's, Knoppix, Gnoppix or *ubuntu. They are to heavy. I create full customized Install CD's for Computers from 200MHz to 500Mhz including Workststions, Servers, ... all packages fit on a singel CD. Thanks to ALL Debian Developers, Debian Maintainers and Voluters. Since I have no valid ID-Card (problens with France, since I am origin iranish/turkish witeh illegal german adoptivp arents) I can not enter the NM... nobody can sign legaly my GPG key and more bs. Maybe if I go back to Iran or Turkey it would be possible for me. Thanks and Greetings Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi 0033/6/6192519367100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Am 2006-08-24 11:56:21, schrieb John Goerzen: On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 06:16:49PM +0200, Bastian Venthur wrote: Because, hardware support seems to be better in Ubutuntu than in Debian? I've not tested it by myself, but I've heard from many people claiming that their hardware (especially Laptop hardware) works perfectly out of the box with Ubuntu but is a PITA to get working on Debian. This sort of vague anecdotal evidence has been repeated over and over. It may be true, but as far as I know, nobody has yet to come forth with reporting specific problems in Debian, only x worked out of the box in ubuntu but not in Debian. Right and there are peoples having problems with IBM Laptops... Some have ask me privately and furtunatly I could help to 90%. This is why I acception tonns of SPAM in my Freenet-INBOX and not changing all two weeks my E-Mail address which is not realy serious. Well, that may be, but that's not necessarily a bug in Debian. For instance, for many years, the Debian installer did not support LVM, even though the Debian OS did. Is that a bug (in the classic sense) in the Debian installer? I'd say no, it was just a feature it didn't have. Agreed We ship a lot of modules as source in Debian -- lirc, for instance, but you can also find source modules for things like nvidia in contrib or non-free. Building binaries from source modules is trivial but non-obvious to someone that is not a Linux admin. Perhaps that could be improved, but it doesn't mean that Debian supports less hardware, only that its support may appear in a different manner. Right and this is exactly I have told different peoples. Sinc we are using the same Linux as Ubuntu or other Distributions we have generaly the same Hardware support. Hardware choice is important to me. I don't want my software selection to lock me into one or two hardware platforms -- I want to be able to buy an Arm, Sparc, Alpha, PowerPC, or whatever device and put my chosen software on it if I so desire. ;-) Greetings and nice weekend Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi 0033/6/6192519367100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Raphael Hertzog [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: On Thu, 24 Aug 2006, Russ Allbery wrote: We really need to put our heads together and come up with a good system for managing pre-built kernel modules for the kernels in Debian. It's a much more widespread problem than just a question of free vs. non-free. It's possible to do right now, but it involves a ton of manual work by the maintainer every time the list of officially supported kernels changes, and pretty much every upload goes through NEW. I think that to have a really good solution, we're going to need a larger plan that includes changes to the archive management software as well. I'd love to see this be a priority for etch+1. There's already work being done in that direction, please check out with the kernel team. AFAIK there's a linux-modules-extra- source package created to auto-build all those modules. Ah, hm, I see that linux-modules-extra-* is depending on other source packages. That might work quite well. I apparently had misunderstood how it was going to work. -- Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 11:12:04AM -0500, John Goerzen wrote: On Wed, Aug 23, 2006 at 12:05:53PM +0200, Michelle Konzack wrote: Am 2006-07-28 12:43:55, schrieb John Goerzen: I like the fact that a base Debian install is only 100MB. Most of Debian's competitors are 10 times that. Ist now over 200 MByte... No. I've been doing a ton of etch installs with cdebootstrap lately, and it's still just under 100MB. 97 or so if memory serves. Yes, but that doesn't include things like bootloaders and kernels, and things like filesystem support tools. The reason is rather obvious; (c)debootstrap cannot predict which kernel image will be necessary (or if any will be necessary at all), nor can it predict which filesystem will be used (it might be NFS, in which case you don't need an fsck but do need nfs support packages) Given that a kernel image these days takes up about 50M already, and given that most filesystem support tools require a few library packages as well (which results in more megs), it's probably well over 100M, and 200 would not seem unlikely. A ton better than the RHEL/CentOS situation, where the stripped-down server install is over 1GB. That, of course, is still true. And then you haven't even looked at Solaris (as shipped by Sun), which needs a few gigabytes. -- Lo-lan-do Home is where you have to wash the dishes. -- #debian-devel, Freenode, 2004-09-22 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Fri August 25 2006 03:46, Mgr. Peter Tuharsky wrote: I cannot 100% agree with You, althought Your point is for sure partially valid. Uhm, Debian's target audience is not Joe User, never has been AFAICT. Joe isn't usually capable of determining which MTA, web server, proxy server, etc., specific implementation is best for them, assuming they are even aware of the architecture underlying the UI they see... Debian assumes all of that of its users. Since my very first read of the Social Contract, Policy papers, etc., I have had the impression that Debian is not a solution, it is the pieces one needs to build a solution. Taking this view explains a lot about Debian, and does so at a deeper level than some of the common perceptions. e.g.: Why there are so many CDD's and derivatives, with NGOs and even governments basing their OS on Debian. Is it just the best, or has it been designed to accommodate such use. Why licensing which allows users to redistribute modified versions is so important. Are they all free fanatics, or would not being redistributable make the effort put into being easily derivable a waste of time. Why there are so many different implementations of pretty much everything in the archive. Does Debian lack focus, or is it just not possible to service all the potential users with just one or two implementations. Why the learning curve is so steep. Do Debianites want to be elite, or is it simply that relatively few computer users are aware of the low level OS issues Debian necessarily deals with by catering to everybody. Why old software is commonplace. Slow and lazy with the packaging... or does it just take time to get all the pieces functioning well enough to be an easily derivable basis, and one which changes every six months would be a poor choice for that use. I agree with you 100% that Ubuntu is more focused on and better serves Joe User, but to say that `Debian doesn't care' is as wrong as you can be. Common perception appears to be much as you have written, the reality is that Debian has done such a good job at presenting a necessarily complex and contradictory collection of software that Joe User can actually be fooled into thinking it was done for them! I'm not saying Joe User is a fool, I am Joe everytime I install something and experience the learning curve of figuring out what it does and how I can use it. The Debian User's learning curve is a bit different though, it is one of recognizing where the needs of Joe, Corporate, NGO, etc. Users diverge and consequently where to look for the tools and tweaks needed to transform the universal OS into their OS. That there also needs to be tweaks at the Arbitrary User level afterwards should be no surprise and may well be unavoidable... that is where Ubuntu, Progeny, etc., enter the picture. The way I see it: distros tailored to specific types of users which are based on Debian are not making up for Debian's failings, they are the most natural and may even be the actual intended use of what Debian provides. HTH - Bruce -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Am Freitag 25 August 2006 12:54 schrieb Wouter Verhelst: Given that a kernel image these days takes up about 50M already I guess that those that care for the smallest possible base system (and those that hate initrd/initramfs) have their own kernel. My one (for a laptop) has an installed size of 7456 KB (not even close to 50MB). HS pgpD9fxVQy3RE.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Am 2006-07-28 12:43:55, schrieb John Goerzen: I like the fact that a base Debian install is only 100MB. Most of Debian's competitors are 10 times that. Ist now over 200 MByte... It was Woody with 64 MByte but a custom Sarge can striped to 92 MByte which would be interesting for Servers, routers and such... If you are eBay, and you absolutely must have your website up at all times, which do you care about? The latest kernel or the most stable one? Unfortunatly, eBay is running Microsof IIS version 4 and 5. This is, why eBay is inaccessible between 10:00 and 12:00 GMT. The MS SQL reqires a shutwown while Vacuumizing. I'd say that Debian's big wins aren't the number of packages it has. It's that the system is stable, well-designed, tightly integrated, and predictable. These are extremely valuable things. FullACK It's just that these users aren't a huge majority in Debian. Right I run Debian on laptops and desktops just fine. Me too: Toshiba T1950CT (486dx50, 12 MB, Woody), IBM TP760ED, IBM R40, IBM T72, ... My Desktop is running fvwm since I use Debian (Slink, 03/1999) and it had never failed. It's not that we can't relate to them. It's that you are asking Debian to alienate all of its other users in order to turn itself into Ubuntu. Let Ubuntu care about users that want Ubuntu and let Debian care about users that want Debian. FullACK The day Debian becomes the OS you want it to be is the day I switch to something else, because it will cease being a useful general purpose operating system. Note that I also believe that Windows is not a useful general purpose operating system. ;-) Greetings Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi 0033/6/6192519367100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Hello Katrina, Am 2006-07-28 12:42:01, schrieb Katrina Jackson: PS. Hardware, Hardware, Hardware, I have to confess, if there was better hardware support I think most people would be happy. Hardware supported by Ubuntu 6 months ago, should be supported by Debian by now. Why do you try to blame Debian for the sucking Hardware support which is definitifly a thing of the Kernel (Linux) which depend on the support of the hardware manufacturer. If you want to get better hardware support, please contact the manufacturer. Note: I am using since MANY years IBM Laptops (760ED, R40, T72) and I have never had problems to get it running since Debian 2.2 codename Potato. Greetings Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi 0033/6/6192519367100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Am 2006-07-28 13:35:30, schrieb Katrina Jackson: You say Ubuntu has better publicity, which it does. But why is this the case? I know Mark has more money, but since you have so many programmers, He is Miliardaire (TV interview and his own words). and seem so passionate about your OS, why aren't you as successful getting publicity? I'm not accusing anyone. I guess I just really would like to know: Do we need publicity of tens of million Euros? A.) Could Debian do anything to get better publicity and change people's perceptions. (For instance, if Debian is so more well build then Ubuntu why don't the press keep mentioning this? Do you want to pay the making of such publicity? Ubuntu/Canonical is commercial while Debian is a volunter organization. B.) Why hasn't more been done? Why isn't there any major reports by like PC World which say Ubuntu is top 100 products, but man if you want a better distro, more well built etc.. you should check out Debian. Because Ubunto pay for ranking? ;-) Greetings Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 50, rue de Soultz MSM LinuxMichi 0033/6/6192519367100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Wed, Aug 23, 2006 at 12:05:53PM +0200, Michelle Konzack wrote: Am 2006-07-28 12:43:55, schrieb John Goerzen: I like the fact that a base Debian install is only 100MB. Most of Debian's competitors are 10 times that. Ist now over 200 MByte... No. I've been doing a ton of etch installs with cdebootstrap lately, and it's still just under 100MB. 97 or so if memory serves. A ton better than the RHEL/CentOS situation, where the stripped-down server install is over 1GB. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Michelle Konzack wrote: Hello Katrina, Am 2006-07-28 12:42:01, schrieb Katrina Jackson: PS. Hardware, Hardware, Hardware, I have to confess, if there was better hardware support I think most people would be happy. Hardware supported by Ubuntu 6 months ago, should be supported by Debian by now. Why do you try to blame Debian for the sucking Hardware support which is definitifly a thing of the Kernel (Linux) which depend on the support of the hardware manufacturer. If you want to get better hardware support, please contact the manufacturer. Because, hardware support seems to be better in Ubutuntu than in Debian? I've not tested it by myself, but I've heard from many people claiming that their hardware (especially Laptop hardware) works perfectly out of the box with Ubuntu but is a PITA to get working on Debian. Note: I am using since MANY years IBM Laptops (760ED, R40, T72) and I have never had problems to get it running since Debian 2.2 codename Potato. Err, thanks for this useful background info. Hope you know that IBM is not the only company building laptops... Cheers, Bastian -- Bastian Venthur http://venthur.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 06:16:49PM +0200, Bastian Venthur wrote: which is definitifly a thing of the Kernel (Linux) which depend on the support of the hardware manufacturer. If you want to get better hardware support, please contact the manufacturer. Because, hardware support seems to be better in Ubutuntu than in Debian? I've not tested it by myself, but I've heard from many people claiming that their hardware (especially Laptop hardware) works perfectly out of the box with Ubuntu but is a PITA to get working on Debian. This sort of vague anecdotal evidence has been repeated over and over. It may be true, but as far as I know, nobody has yet to come forth with reporting specific problems in Debian, only x worked out of the box in ubuntu but not in Debian. Well, that may be, but that's not necessarily a bug in Debian. For instance, for many years, the Debian installer did not support LVM, even though the Debian OS did. Is that a bug (in the classic sense) in the Debian installer? I'd say no, it was just a feature it didn't have. We ship a lot of modules as source in Debian -- lirc, for instance, but you can also find source modules for things like nvidia in contrib or non-free. Building binaries from source modules is trivial but non-obvious to someone that is not a Linux admin. Perhaps that could be improved, but it doesn't mean that Debian supports less hardware, only that its support may appear in a different manner. (I haven't used Ubuntu, so I don't know if this is the problem or not) BTW, there is a strong case to be made that Debian supports far more hardware than Ubuntu simply because ports of Ubuntu are sadly deficient. That is one reason I have never turned to Ubuntu. I can't run it on my Alpha, I couldn't have run it on my Zaurus (arm) like I did with Debian, etc. Hardware choice is important to me. I don't want my software selection to lock me into one or two hardware platforms -- I want to be able to buy an Arm, Sparc, Alpha, PowerPC, or whatever device and put my chosen software on it if I so desire. So it all depends on your perspective. If you narrow your perspective to ia32 laptop hardware, perhaps Ubuntu supports more. If you expand it, I would say Debian supports more. -- John -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
John Goerzen wrote: On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 06:16:49PM +0200, Bastian Venthur wrote: which is definitifly a thing of the Kernel (Linux) which depend on the support of the hardware manufacturer. If you want to get better hardware support, please contact the manufacturer. Because, hardware support seems to be better in Ubutuntu than in Debian? I've not tested it by myself, but I've heard from many people claiming that their hardware (especially Laptop hardware) works perfectly out of the box with Ubuntu but is a PITA to get working on Debian. So it all depends on your perspective. If you narrow your perspective to ia32 laptop hardware, perhaps Ubuntu supports more. If you expand it, I would say Debian supports more. I absolutely agree with you, off course Debian supports more hardware than Ubuntu. But that was not the point, Michelle claimed that hardware support depends entirely on the kernel, which is IMHO only one half of the truth. The end user usually understands under hardware support, how well the system recognizes hardware and it's ability to get it working with a minimum of user interaction required. And from what I've heard Ubuntu seems to be ahead of Debian at this point. Again, I never used Ubuntu myself, but some friends of mine did, and they claim Ubuntu has the best hardware support of all distros they tested (mostly Suse and Debian). Cheers, Bastian -- Bastian Venthur http://venthur.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 07:29:22PM +0200, Bastian Venthur wrote: John Goerzen wrote: On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 06:16:49PM +0200, Bastian Venthur wrote: which is definitifly a thing of the Kernel (Linux) which depend on the support of the hardware manufacturer. If you want to get better hardware support, please contact the manufacturer. Because, hardware support seems to be better in Ubutuntu than in Debian? I've not tested it by myself, but I've heard from many people claiming that their hardware (especially Laptop hardware) works perfectly out of the box with Ubuntu but is a PITA to get working on Debian. So it all depends on your perspective. If you narrow your perspective to ia32 laptop hardware, perhaps Ubuntu supports more. If you expand it, I would say Debian supports more. I absolutely agree with you, off course Debian supports more hardware than Ubuntu. But that was not the point, Michelle claimed that hardware support depends entirely on the kernel, which is IMHO only one half of the truth. The end user usually understands under hardware support, how well the system recognizes hardware and it's ability to get it working with a minimum of user interaction required. And from what I've heard Ubuntu seems to be ahead of Debian at this point. My personal opinion about Ubuntu stable vs Debian stable: * newer kernels * nearly completely untested In other words, Ubuntu _is_ ahead of Debian, both in the positive and negative sense. It releases a lot more often, so it obviously features more recent kernels. On the other hand, Ubuntu strongly suffers from the tendency to include all the newest unstable doodads, so the path: Ubuntu - experimental - unstable - stable is trodden often these days. In the term of hardware drivers, people put very little effort into stabilizing them once they appear to be working, so for ia32 hardware coverage, Ubuntu does fare better on the average. This doesn't excuse them from shipping buggy drivers, which they do. You can choose between a stable, solid distribution that lacks the newest trinkets and something on the cutting edges that explodes at touch. Testing things takes time, and this is exactly what Debian does. Is the choice between Debian and Ubuntu a bad thing? -- 1KB // Microsoft corollary to Hanlon's razor: // Never attribute to stupidity what can be // adequately explained by malice. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Aaron M. Ucko wrote: Sander Marechal [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't think Debian should do that, but perhaps the process to install them after the fact could be easier for people who are not full blown Linux admins? Are you aware of module-assistant? Nope, but I was going off Bastian's comment that a lot of modules get shipped as source and need to be compiled. I use Ubuntu myself (plain Debian as a dev system and test system) so I already have the modules I need. -- Sander Marechal http://www.gnome-hearts.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Aaron M. Ucko wrote: Sander Marechal [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't think Debian should do that, but perhaps the process to install them after the fact could be easier for people who are not full blown Linux admins? Are you aware of module-assistant? module-assistant is cool, if you know that it exists (which you can't assume for the average user, i think) and have the guts to actually use it :) But since you mention it, module-assistant is a good example for the hardware support thing I mentioned before: it might not sound too complicated for us to re-run it every time aptitude bumped our kernel versions, but I think the average user, expects something like his to happen automatically. Cheers, Bastian -- Bastian Venthur http://venthur.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Sander Marechal [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't think Debian should do that, but perhaps the process to install them after the fact could be easier for people who are not full blown Linux admins? Are you aware of module-assistant? -- Aaron M. Ucko, KB1CJC (amu at alum.mit.edu, ucko at debian.org) Finger [EMAIL PROTECTED] (NOT a valid e-mail address) for more info. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Bastian Venthur wrote: Michelle Konzack wrote: Hello Katrina, Am 2006-07-28 12:42:01, schrieb Katrina Jackson: PS. Hardware, Hardware, Hardware, I have to confess, if there was better hardware support I think most people would be happy. Hardware supported by Ubuntu 6 months ago, should be supported by Debian by now. Why do you try to blame Debian for the sucking Hardware support which is definitifly a thing of the Kernel (Linux) which depend on the support of the hardware manufacturer. If you want to get better hardware support, please contact the manufacturer. Because, hardware support seems to be better in Ubutuntu than in Debian? I've not tested it by myself, but I've heard from many people claiming that their hardware (especially Laptop hardware) works perfectly out of the box with Ubuntu but is a PITA to get working on Debian. Ubuntu ships with some restricted modules for better hardware support. To be exact (from synaptic): - madwifi (Atheros) - fglrx (ATI) - nvidia - fcdsl2, fcdslsl, fcdslslusb, fcdslusb, fcdslusb2, fcpci, fcpcmcia, fcpcmcia_cs (AVM ISDN) I don't think Debian should do that, but perhaps the process to install them after the fact could be easier for people who are not full blown Linux admins? -- Sander Marechal http://www.gnome-hearts.org/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Sander Marechal [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Aaron M. Ucko wrote: Sander Marechal [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't think Debian should do that, but perhaps the process to install them after the fact could be easier for people who are not full blown Linux admins? Are you aware of module-assistant? Nope, but I was going off Bastian's comment that a lot of modules get shipped as source and need to be compiled. I use Ubuntu myself (plain Debian as a dev system and test system) so I already have the modules I need. Note that Ubuntu doesn't build all the kernel modules either; Ubuntu users have to build their own kernel modules for OpenAFS, for instance, just like Debian users do. We really need to put our heads together and come up with a good system for managing pre-built kernel modules for the kernels in Debian. It's a much more widespread problem than just a question of free vs. non-free. It's possible to do right now, but it involves a ton of manual work by the maintainer every time the list of officially supported kernels changes, and pretty much every upload goes through NEW. I think that to have a really good solution, we're going to need a larger plan that includes changes to the archive management software as well. I'd love to see this be a priority for etch+1. -- Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Em Quinta 24 Agosto 2006 18:08, Bastian Venthur escreveu: Hi! Aaron M. Ucko wrote: Sander Marechal [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I don't think Debian should do that, but perhaps the process to install them after the fact could be easier for people who are not full blown Linux admins? Are you aware of module-assistant? module-assistant is cool, if you know that it exists (which you can't assume for the average user, i think) and have the guts to actually use it :) But since you mention it, module-assistant is a good example for the hardware support thing I mentioned before: it might not sound too complicated for us to re-run it every time aptitude bumped our kernel versions, but I think the average user, expects something like his to happen automatically. I'm really a noob when it comes to the kernel guts, but i wonder, can't it be made like updating /boot/grub/menu.lst with a new kernel version ? -- YUP! -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 07:26:04PM -0300, Fabricio aybabtu Cannini wrote: I'm really a noob when it comes to the kernel guts, but i wonder, can't it be made like updating /boot/grub/menu.lst with a new kernel version ? Yes, you could in theory compile a kernel module package from another package's postinst, but: 1. You would have to guarantee the right kernel headers are installed at the time. (You can't install them either, see the next point.) 2. You cannot install it, as you can't call dpkg from a postinst script, and dpkg does not yet have any “trigger” functionality that would run afterwards. /* Steinar */ -- Homepage: http://www.sesse.net/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
El día 24/08/2006 a 11:25 Michelle Konzack escribió... Am 2006-07-28 13:35:30, schrieb Katrina Jackson: You say Ubuntu has better publicity, which it does. But why is this the case? I know Mark has more money, but since you have so many programmers, He is Miliardaire (TV interview and his own words). and seem so passionate about your OS, why aren't you as successful getting publicity? I'm not accusing anyone. I guess I just really would like to know: Do we need publicity of tens of million Euros? A.) Could Debian do anything to get better publicity and change people's perceptions. (For instance, if Debian is so more well build then Ubuntu why don't the press keep mentioning this? Do you want to pay the making of such publicity? Ubuntu/Canonical is commercial while Debian is a volunter organization. I do believe it's more a matter of relations with press and media than budget. We have no easy-way-to-get-it to tell people why they would want to use Debian. Ubuntu, on the other hand, has achieved to do so, and what they tell that we can't? nothing. All what they advertise we do offer. But we are not good on advertise our OS. We need to tell people: Debian is fine for you because it allows you to get your work done and be productive, whether you are an artist, corporate employee, student, doctor, etc. (I didn't mention computer savy people since we are well known there, so why advertise for them, if we have an important market share on that segment?). That kind of advertisement, focusing on things that matter for people more than specs and technical details, which are only interesting for those who already in the computing area. I know there is a subproject working on such things, which is great. B.) Why hasn't more been done? Why isn't there any major reports by like PC World which say Ubuntu is top 100 products, but man if you want a better distro, more well built etc.. you should check out Debian. Because Ubunto pay for ranking? ;-) No, I still believe we need more people and relations with press, and not only the technical ones, we should advertise more our work and good experiences like donzka, LinEx, and the others. Not only tell ourselves: we know we are doing things better. We should tell it to others too! regards -- Rudy Godoy | 0x3433BD21 | http://stone-head.org ,''`. http://www.apesol.org - http://www.debian.org : :' : GPG FP: 0D12 8537 607E 2DF5 4EFB 35A7 550F 1A00 3433 BD21 `. `' `- signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Why does Ubuntu have all the ideas?
Em Quinta 24 Agosto 2006 19:37, Steinar H. Gunderson escreveu: On Thu, Aug 24, 2006 at 07:26:04PM -0300, Fabricio aybabtu Cannini wrote: I'm really a noob when it comes to the kernel guts, but i wonder, can't it be made like updating /boot/grub/menu.lst with a new kernel version ? Yes, you could in theory compile a kernel module package from another package's postinst, but: Perhaps using dependencies or /etc/apt/preferences ? 1. You would have to guarantee the right kernel headers are installed at the time. (You can't install them either, see the next point.) 2. You cannot install it, as you can't call dpkg from a postinst script, and dpkg does not yet have any “trigger” functionality that would run afterwards. Like, if you have a -src package, can't you determinate that the kernel to be installed will work with it by dependencies ? ( in this case matching the exact kernel headers|source version ) -- YUP!
