Re: esound [was: Re: Non-related 'Recommends' dependencies - bug or not?]
Le dimanche 20 juillet 2008 à 16:05 -0500, Jason D. Clinton a écrit : Loïc, you offered to NMU this package here: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=422590 This vastly improves the Gnome sound situation. Hope we can get this in for Lenny. Loïc has indicated that he doesn't have time to do this NMU. Can someone else take this? Given the current situation of the esd package - which is, in the absence of proper serializing of patches, a fork of the 0.2.36 version - it is not something easy. There is a lot of work to do to bring it in shape, including dealing with the current maintainer if he doesn’t want to give it away. Cheers, -- .''`. : :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code. `. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to `-our own. Resistance is futile. signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Re: esound [was: Re: Non-related 'Recommends' dependencies - bug or not?]
On Sat, Jul 19, 2008 at 6:13 PM, Jason D. Clinton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 9:21 AM, Loïc Minier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Jun 17, 2008, Martin Pitt wrote: That's interesting indeed! So you avoid that by using an OSS driver instead of the ALSA one? I can really not imagine how esound on top of a broken ALSA driver would sound better than just using the ALSA output directly? It might normalize which sampling rate / sample width is used Loïc, you offered to NMU this package here: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=422590 This vastly improves the Gnome sound situation. Hope we can get this in for Lenny. Loïc has indicated that he doesn't have time to do this NMU. Can someone else take this?
Re: esound [was: Re: Non-related 'Recommends' dependencies - bug or not?]
On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 9:21 AM, Loïc Minier [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Jun 17, 2008, Martin Pitt wrote: That's interesting indeed! So you avoid that by using an OSS driver instead of the ALSA one? I can really not imagine how esound on top of a broken ALSA driver would sound better than just using the ALSA output directly? It might normalize which sampling rate / sample width is used Hi, Pardon me for resurrecting this slightly old thread but there's been an important development. Jeffrey Stedfast has resolved the esd deadlocking issues when used with PulseAudio. Among other things, this solves the Pidgin and Flash crashing problems (both of whom consume esd output while Pulse is running with -compat). http://jeffreystedfast.blogspot.com/2008/07/pulseaudio-i-told-you-so.html It appears that he also made a correct release by merging our downstream changes to libesd that were rotting in Gnome's Bugzilla. Loïc, you offered to NMU this package here: http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=422590 This vastly improves the Gnome sound situation. Hope we can get this in for Lenny.
Re: esound [was: Re: Non-related 'Recommends' dependencies - bug or not?]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, Am Mo den 16. Jun 2008 um 6:25 schrieb Martin Pitt: esound should *so much* die completely. It has very poor sound quality I cannot prove that. Its sound quality is much better than the one of ALSA direct. (Well esd on top of OSS. It is not that good than with OSS direct but it is ok.) (huge A/V desync when playing videos, etc.), I just see that issues when using ALSA. So please drop ALSA and not ESD. very poor code quality That might be. But that's a problem of many gnome applications. The only thing I know which really still needs the esound interface is libgnome, for the sound events. There are other needs. - - The sound hardware do only support one bitrate and you need something between to scale the bitrate. - - You want to have sound mixing and do not want to use ARTS (Which is mud). At least in my personal experience, using ALSA directly (which has had dmix enabled by default for years) gives much better results. My experience is complete opposite. ALSA is that kind of buggy. If you move the mouse while using sound on ALSA you hear cracks and sound disorders. Also they halfly translate the config files!!! And then I was not able to use it long time as it makes my systems complete instable and it ops all time. (Tested on kernel 2.4.*, 2.6.* and also with debian kernels or vanilla. And on all distros, Stable, Unstable or testing.) So please stop removing stuff, which is much better than the stuff which is recommended. Regards Klaus Ethgen - -- Klaus Ethgenhttp://www.ethgen.de/ pub 2048R/D1A4EDE5 2000-02-26 Klaus Ethgen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fingerprint: D7 67 71 C4 99 A6 D4 FE EA 40 30 57 3C 88 26 2B -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBSFeAFJ+OKpjRpO3lAQIzEAf9EdAaAai/pxCLpKHzZ6jlT2SxIy8fjlkY 600PhO3IgfqVSgrBedKyb1axHPvVMNDY+f6pVwPEI9/0z5JUYXpnoRtM7h0q9Gi7 YiUK9T6S0jGEHRt5O6CHaXgBaCfiqpp6xLJ69bVTtpNNfaFhOcBCZd2WiJU535E/ W39wzETQsDXkHQz4ONbymHdhmja451BEJx77pBxRMFtYrcU/nRXGKd2aaDM3vhyx ytkYkPIfufJHQ9IsvAAQDiAcJAR0s/17WW4BHoiT+Hb3poPL3Siigd/pApXC5UmT QFryoj9V+iAJjWbt3rDaE46AcZEo58GHRX5IM0UaypwhSKDzfQWdOQ== =DbjD -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: esound [was: Re: Non-related 'Recommends' dependencies - bug or not?]
Hi Klaus, Klaus Ethgen [2008-06-17 10:12 +0100]: I cannot prove that. Its sound quality is much better than the one of ALSA direct. (Well esd on top of OSS. It is not that good than with OSS direct but it is ok.) Hm, that rather sounds like for your card the OSS driver is much better than the ALSA one. But OSS/ALSA both live below the application level (where esound/pulseaudio/arts reside). (huge A/V desync when playing videos, etc.), I just see that issues when using ALSA. So please drop ALSA and not ESD. On the vast majority of systems out there, esound plays through ALSA. The kernel only has very few OSS-only drivers left, and gradually shifts towards ALSA only. Since ALSA is the kernel ABI (of course it has userspace libraries, too), and esound is the user session daemon, it's not really an 'either or' here. The alternative to esound is not really ALSA, but rather pulseaudio. The only thing I know which really still needs the esound interface is libgnome, for the sound events. There are other needs. - The sound hardware do only support one bitrate and you need something between to scale the bitrate. - You want to have sound mixing and do not want to use ARTS (Which is mud). Then IMHO you should use Pulseaudio nowadays. However, gstreamer and other infrastructure never really made bitrate/frequency conversion an issue with direct ALSA output. YMMV. At least in my personal experience, using ALSA directly (which has had dmix enabled by default for years) gives much better results. My experience is complete opposite. ALSA is that kind of buggy. If you move the mouse while using sound on ALSA you hear cracks and sound disorders. Also they halfly translate the config files!!! And then I was not able to use it long time as it makes my systems complete instable and it ops all time. (Tested on kernel 2.4.*, 2.6.* and also with debian kernels or vanilla. And on all distros, Stable, Unstable or testing.) That's interesting indeed! So you avoid that by using an OSS driver instead of the ALSA one? I can really not imagine how esound on top of a broken ALSA driver would sound better than just using the ALSA output directly? Thanks, Martin -- Martin Pitt| http://www.piware.de Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com) | Debian Developer (www.debian.org) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: esound [was: Re: Non-related 'Recommends' dependencies - bug or not?]
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Dear Martin, Am Di den 17. Jun 2008 um 11:50 schrieb Martin Pitt: Klaus Ethgen [2008-06-17 10:12 +0100]: I cannot prove that. Its sound quality is much better than the one of ALSA direct. (Well esd on top of OSS. It is not that good than with OSS direct but it is ok.) Hm, that rather sounds like for your card the OSS driver is much better than the ALSA one. But OSS/ALSA both live below the application level (where esound/pulseaudio/arts reside). Well, yes. I just see that issues when using ALSA. So please drop ALSA and not ESD. On the vast majority of systems out there, esound plays through ALSA. The kernel only has very few OSS-only drivers left, and gradually shifts towards ALSA only. Since ALSA is the kernel ABI (of course it has userspace libraries, too), and esound is the user session daemon, it's not really an 'either or' here. Sorry that I forgot the sarcasms tags. I know that they are different levels. The alternative to esound is not really ALSA, but rather pulseaudio. Is pulsaudio supported by applications like wine for example? Do pulsaudio work on top of OSS? At least in my personal experience, using ALSA directly (which has had dmix enabled by default for years) gives much better results. My experience is complete opposite. ALSA is that kind of buggy. If you move the mouse while using sound on ALSA you hear cracks and sound disorders. Also they halfly translate the config files!!! And then I was not able to use it long time as it makes my systems complete instable and it ops all time. (Tested on kernel 2.4.*, 2.6.* and also with debian kernels or vanilla. And on all distros, Stable, Unstable or testing.) That's interesting indeed! So you avoid that by using an OSS driver instead of the ALSA one? Yes. I can really not imagine how esound on top of a broken ALSA driver would sound better than just using the ALSA output directly? Oh, that was a misunderstanding. I mean ESD on top of OSS works well. You are true, a sound daemon and the hardware support are different. ALSA is a bit more than only the hardware abstraction then also some library stuff which share some functionality of ESD. So: OSS: Works well. OSS-ESD: Works well too. ALSA: The problems above. ALSA-ESD: I never really tested. Regards Klaus - -- Klaus Ethgenhttp://www.ethgen.de/ pub 2048R/D1A4EDE5 2000-02-26 Klaus Ethgen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Fingerprint: D7 67 71 C4 99 A6 D4 FE EA 40 30 57 3C 88 26 2B -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) iQEVAwUBSFe23J+OKpjRpO3lAQIwRgf+I7tfapqqZGLDic092i7L+3Uafk8k1P9P pQFgm24CA/9eZUMt5ejq7dkBbXpLxuncAClIjNhMt/ZrMimNdc+ZEhHgo5z+RfcI pttOAoxMqActOZG5swi7M0pMux7TY4ctkhkRnFYNT7sqSRfVMORJgckrJpZD8udJ GuOAz2g643njCdGVHVx9i3dzduJ9/T+ABZWitCVwrfrK/APm25KXegPP+n7ddltm g++pGYNqF3u5pCHLqUo5xnVanhZepIW2q8DCBO7Azw29K+dGCur0fE/3h77RnhJd A138fJyN1qH1eE1y1pwHReBAkECI9Y5mHk2vDXwV53iGa38BE3UfTg== =kB4L -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: esound [was: Re: Non-related 'Recommends' dependencies - bug or not?]
Klaus Ethgen [2008-06-17 14:06 +0100]: The alternative to esound is not really ALSA, but rather pulseaudio. Is pulsaudio supported by applications like wine for example? Do pulsaudio work on top of OSS? pulseaudio provides an esound ABI compatibility layer, thus it's a drop-in replacement. It also provides OSS and ALSA emulation for legacy applications; of course there will still be problems left with those, it can never be 100% transparent (especially not for OSS, which does not have a library API, but is so close to the metal). OSS: Works well. OSS-ESD: Works well too. Ubuntu got a lot of bug reports about random desktop crashes/deadlocks with esound, that's why I learned to hate it so much (apart from the totally ridiculous video A/V desync). ALSA: The problems above. ALSA-ESD: I never really tested. Thanks for your insights! Martin -- Martin Pitt| http://www.piware.de Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com) | Debian Developer (www.debian.org) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: esound [was: Re: Non-related 'Recommends' dependencies - bug or not?]
On Tue, Jun 17, 2008, Martin Pitt wrote: That's interesting indeed! So you avoid that by using an OSS driver instead of the ALSA one? I can really not imagine how esound on top of a broken ALSA driver would sound better than just using the ALSA output directly? It might normalize which sampling rate / sample width is used -- Loïc Minier -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: esound [was: Re: Non-related 'Recommends' dependencies - bug or not?]
Le mardi 17 juin 2008 à 14:06 +0100, Klaus Ethgen a écrit : OSS: Works well. OSS-ESD: Works well too. ALSA: The problems above. ALSA-ESD: I never really tested. Last time I checked, libesd-alsa0 was still completely unusable (well, except for some weird kind of sound-based torture). -- .''`. : :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code. `. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to `-our own. Resistance is futile. signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Re: esound [was: Re: Non-related 'Recommends' dependencies - bug or not?]
On Tue, Jun 17, 2008 at 10:12:52AM +0100, Klaus Ethgen wrote: Am Mo den 16. Jun 2008 um 6:25 schrieb Martin Pitt: very poor code quality That might be. But that's a problem of many gnome applications. To be quite honest, I've seen the code for esd, and it is terrible. In fact, worse than all the GNOME applications whose code I've ever seen. The thing that really stuck out for me was the large number of global variables in esd. It's lack of modularity didn't exactly excite me, either. -- brian m. carlson / brian with sandals: Houston, Texas, US +1 713 440 7475 | http://crustytoothpaste.ath.cx/~bmc | My opinion only troff on top of XML: http://crustytoothpaste.ath.cx/~bmc/code/thwack OpenPGP: RSA v4 4096b 88AC E9B2 9196 305B A994 7552 F1BA 225C 0223 B187 signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: esound [was: Re: Non-related 'Recommends' dependencies - bug or not?]
On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 17:44:23 +0200, Josselin Mouette wrote: Last time I checked, libesd-alsa0 was still completely unusable (well, except for some weird kind of sound-based torture). I regularly help users to find out why their sound has stopped working, and the cause is usually due to libesd0's esd holding the sound card open. Replacing libesd0 with libesd-alsa0 and killing esd makes everything work again. libesd-alsa0 works perfectly for me and I wish we installed it by default. We would then be able to enable the 'enable software sound mixing (ESD)' setting by default so that event sounds in apps like gossip would work. -- Sam Morris http://robots.org.uk/ PGP key id 1024D/5EA01078 3412 EA18 1277 354B 991B C869 B219 7FDB 5EA0 1078 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
esound [was: Re: Non-related 'Recommends' dependencies - bug or not?]
Frans Pop [2008-06-15 20:39 +0200]: Also, the package has had uploads of new upstream versions to Ubuntu without getting similar uploads in Debian, but even there not by its Debian maintainer who AFAIK is an Canonical employee. esound should *so much* die completely. It has very poor sound quality (huge A/V desync when playing videos, etc.), very poor code quality (it causes complete desktop locks very often, due to not being thread safe), and is abandoned upstream. At least in Ubuntu nobody likes it, and nobody wants to touch it, and we have not installed it by default since 6.06 or even earlier. Apparently in Debian the amount of esound love from the DDs is very similar. :-) The only thing I know which really still needs the esound interface is libgnome, for the sound events. However, Pulseaudio has a compatibility layer which provides full esound emulation (pulseaudio-esound-compat), without all the shortcomings of esd. If you don't care about sound events, then IMHO you are much better off with not having any sound server at all. At least in my personal experience, using ALSA directly (which has had dmix enabled by default for years) gives much better results. For the record, Ryan Murray isn't a Canonical employee. Also, the last upstream update was done by a community member who screwed it up pretty severely (he dropped all the Debian and Ubuntu patches). However, since nobody cares, we never fixed that. So please don't use the Ubuntu package as a basis for a Debian upload. Martin -- Martin Pitt| http://www.piware.de Ubuntu Developer (www.ubuntu.com) | Debian Developer (www.debian.org) signature.asc Description: Digital signature
