Re: so long and thanks for all the fish
Hi Joey, Am 2014-11-07 22:04, schrieb Joey Hess: It's become abundantly clear that this is no longer the project I originally joined in 1996. We've made some good things, and I wish everyone well, but I'm out. Shocking. Thanks for all the great stuff you did and do, from a Debian user and developer. Especially for debhelper, it made packaging so much easier (and still does). Just adding to the flood of emails but I figure it is better to applaud too much, especially as most feedback one gets as a developer is about bugs and missing features. So consider this a thumbs up from me. Good luck, Torsten -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/d165ea0a82b79306ed30b2ca45473...@landschoff.net
Re: so long and thanks for all the fish
I think all have been said, so I will just join this with +1. Cheers, Ondrej On Sun, Nov 9, 2014, at 02:08, Russ Allbery wrote: zlatan zla...@riseup.net writes: In advance sorry for all spelling mistake that I will write as I am writing from my phone and I am not a native English speaker. [...] And yet, I don't see how it could have been said better. Thank you so much for putting this into words. I just want the warm community feel back where we do not need some special technical process to reach some consensus but a nice talks between friends because we are afterall friends here. A family. So, please, lets care for each other and do a handshaking and hugging as a consensus for everything. +1 -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87ppcx18ph@hope.eyrie.org -- Ondřej Surý ond...@sury.org Knot DNS (https://www.knot-dns.cz/) – a high-performance DNS server -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1416338246.4090430.192561125.405d7...@webmail.messagingengine.com
Re: so long and thanks for all the fish
On Friday 07 November 2014 17:04:10 Joey Hess wrote: It's become abundantly clear that this is no longer the project I originally joined in 1996. We've made some good things, and I wish everyone well, but I'm out. I'm very sorry to read this. We'll miss you. All the best -- https://github.com/dod38fr/ -o- http://search.cpan.org/~ddumont/ http://ddumont.wordpress.com/ -o- irc: dod at irc.debian.org -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2367121.aOZJeVcjqt@ylum
Re: so long and thanks for all the fish
Hi Faidon, On Sat, Nov 08, 2014 at 11:46:57AM +0200, Faidon Liambotis wrote: Extremely sad to read this, Joey. +1 I personally feel like loosing a friend. If I imagine myself to leave Debian I would leave a major part of my life and I guess its similar for Joey and that the decision was hard. Joey, I wish you all the best in your new life. I have to say though, I share your sentiments to a very large degree: I am, too, quite disappointed from Debian's current state of affairs. More to the point, I am, too, quite disappointed by the current behavior of the CTTE and by extension, its members. I have not read that Joey mentioned CTTE or its members but the constitution. I would be really happy if Joey would be more explicit about what he regards the toxic part of the constitution. I don't have high respect for the committee as a whole right now and this is probably the opposite of how it should be. This is clearly a difficult time for the project and, unfortunately, the CTTE is in the middle of this debate and I believe it has actively made things worse. I don't think the CTTE members share this blame equally (not by a long shot), but especially considering the fact that it's a self-moderated body, noone is innocent here. I do not share this point of view. I consider it quite brave if respected members of the Debian community who gained this respect due to their technical competence are putting themselves in the line of fire to draw decisions that need to be drawn to prevent stagnation. As long as we do not have some idea how to resolve issues better than by some CTTE I do not see any point in generally blaming all its members about innocence. It is to easy to lean back as an outsider to say that other people did wrong. Kind regards and Joey, I'd be lucky if our pathes might cross anyway at some point in time Andreas. -- http://fam-tille.de -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141110083954.gc22...@an3as.eu
Re: Please more fish (was: so long and thanks for all the fish)
Hey Joey, On Sun, Nov 09, 2014 at 06:12:13PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote: Please take that message with a pound of salt. I was upset when I wrote it, it's probably not accurate, and I've left[1] for reasons that are much more broadly structural, and are certianly not the fault of the technical committee, or indeed of any one person. I wonder if you could describe what you think made Debian of '96 awesome? I miss reading inspiring manifestos of how things are meant to work in a hypothetical perfect world that makes everyone happy. (For me, I'd say what was cool about Debian back in that day was it was an anarchic collaboration that's doing cool, useful things with software. When I think about it, I usually conclude that Debian still wins because everything else interesting seems way more structured (ie, either corporate or benevolent dictator), but maybe if I like anarchic then the collaboration should be more ad-hoc anyway, and existing structures aren't relevant...) [1] Almost. Still need to orphan git-annex, git-repair, and github-backup. #768516: (O: etckeeper -- store /etc in git, mercurial, bzr or darcs) Planning on staying involved with those as upstream? FWIW, you might want to consider retaining your DDship despite orphaning everything, dropping any roles, unsubscribing from any mailing lists, seceding from the constitution, etc. There's not much obligation in keeping the account, and if you find yourself using some package that needs a bug fix, being able to do an NMU is handy (presuming you're not switching to a different distro, anyway). At least, I haven't had anyone begrudge me keeping my account while not doing anything much. (Also, can we contact your ego or superego directly via email too?) Cheers, aj -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141110140124.ga9...@master.debian.org
Re: Please more fish (was: so long and thanks for all the fish)
Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote: So you still could (and perhaps should[0]) reconsider not to leave Debian. Guess you've read the lists and saw how many people were emotionally hit and upset about this. Joey, I beg you too. Please reconsider. Still, if it's not fun anymore by all means run away as fast as you can, but if this still can be fixed, let's try to. I've told you privately how we met, maybe I didn't tell you how much it meant to me (in a Debian inspiration way), so doing publicly so now. It's just awful to see you go like this. -- .''`.The world breaks everyone, and afterward, some are : :' :strong at the broken places.- Ernest Hemingway `. `' `-Proudly running Debian GNU/Linux -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141110153122.GK21507@aenima
Re: so long and thanks for all the fish
Sad news. I wish you all the best for your future endeavours. I hope to cross paths with you from time to time (maybe I should tidy up my half finished ikiwiki patches!) The coincidental timing of Colin leaving the tech-ctte did make me wonder how different things would be if we could have coerced you into joining. Great for Debian but perhaps not so much for you... -- Jonathan Dowland -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141109094140.ga29...@chew.redmars.org
Re: Please more fish (was: so long and thanks for all the fish)
On 11/08/2014 at 10:57 PM, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote: In the end it's quite easy: sysvinit has many deficiencies ans missing feature, systemd is superior in all places. On 11/09/2014 at 12:01 AM, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote: All of these systems were capable of booting a Linux,... and you really think one of them would have won sooner or later by technical evolution? I doubt. The technical superior system was IMHO rather clear from the beginning,... and it were political reasons that prevented it from winning immediately. If you're *trying* to turn this into yet another systemd flamewar thread, you're certainly using the right sort of rhetoric. On 11/09/2014 at 01:28 AM, Michael Gilbert wrote: Please actually read Joey's message to understand his concern, which is not at all about content or systemd, but the harmful actions of some project members and the complicity of others in those actions over some significant time now. Agreed. (Or IHO harmful, at least - I'm not taking a position on that myself, not least because I probably haven't seen most of the actions in question.) -- The Wanderer The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Please more fish (was: so long and thanks for all the fish)
Le samedi 08 novembre 2014 à 23:30 -0500, Michael Gilbert a écrit : No, the fire is not systemd, it is the politicization of the project via ctte and GR rather than patient evolution of the best technical solution. You are definitely right. However, I think we would all appreciate if you could be less antagonistic about it. Especially against the person in the CTTE who has been spending the most time digging actual technical solutions. The harm is done. The question is: how can we improve our decision-making process? -- .''`. Josselin Mouette : :' : `. `' `- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1415538543.25061.5.camel@tomoyo
Re: Please more fish (was: so long and thanks for all the fish)
Hi, On 09/11/14 07:28, Michael Gilbert wrote: On Sun, Nov 9, 2014 at 12:01 AM, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote: On Sat, 2014-11-08 at 23:30 -0500, Michael Gilbert wrote: No accusation, just a statement of fact. Four ctte members were complicit in the vote [0] Well maybe I read that ruling wrong, but didn't it more or less say we're not deciding anything right now? And even if that decision would be the sole reason for Joey to leave Please actually read Joey's message to understand his concern, which is not at all about content or systemd, but the harmful actions of some project members and the complicity of others in those actions over some significant time now. Please forgive my naiveness, but I do not understand what you are saying here. Now, I am just an informed outsider of this discussion, so maybe that was actually intentional. But I agree with Christoph that it looks to me like the decision in this case was not to have a decision. Also, five CTTE members agreed on that, so I don't understand where you got your number 4 from. I read Joey's message over and over without getting any more clues. He said the CTTE has Decided it should make a decision, which it seems to me it did not. So I probably misunderstood something more fundamental here. Maybe you were intentionally vague, then please just disregard this message. I don't want to heat the discussion, just understand. Kind regards Ralf -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545f83d3.90...@ralfj.de
Re: Please more fish (was: so long and thanks for all the fish)
On Sun, Nov 9, 2014 at 10:10 AM, Ralf Jung wrote: I read Joey's message over and over without getting any more clues. He said the CTTE has Decided it should make a decision, which it seems to me it did not. So I probably misunderstood something more fundamental here. Read all of #762194 very carefully. Note that no technical disagreement existed between project members, it was initiated by a committee member pushing a particular agenda with no consideration about his own conflict of interest, a technical solution that would have avoided mediation by the committee was in progress, no substantive thought or discussion occurred, and finally rubber stamping without any forethought to potential consequence (except from Steve). Yes, the Debian constitution right now allows the TC to misbehave like that. That is part of the constitutional crisis at hand. The TC power needs to be reigned in. Their actions should be limited solely to disagreement mediation, and only when that doesn't involve a conflict of interest pertaining to one of the TC members, and only when all other attempts at reconciliation have tried and failed. Best wishes, Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CANTw=MMpLLnnekz8c2w35sc=rzudvvg+9ytxvt_qni797is...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Please more fish (was: so long and thanks for all the fish)
On Sun, Nov 09, 2014 at 12:54:39PM -0500, Michael Gilbert wrote: On Sun, Nov 9, 2014 at 10:10 AM, Ralf Jung wrote: I read Joey's message over and over without getting any more clues. He said the CTTE has Decided it should make a decision, which it seems to me it did not. So I probably misunderstood something more fundamental here. Read all of #762194 very carefully. Note that no technical disagreement existed between project members, it was initiated by a committee member pushing a particular agenda with no consideration about his own conflict of interest I don't understand why a member of TC should be disallowed to raise issues for the TC to discuss. Do you say that if, formally, the submitter would be any other of numerous people who see problems in replacing working inits by systemd, it would be perfectly ok, but if Ian did this this is no longer allowed? I see a choir of voices shaming Ian for abusing the constitution. Yet it turns out it's you who's picking on a formality rather than the problem at hand. And the issue in #762194 is distinct than #727708 and the GR: #727708: what should be the default init system? #762194: should existing installations be changed? GR: can packages be tied to an init system? None of the above gives an answer to the other two. Thus, the issue Ian raised is valid. And since changing the init system on existing installations is an important _technical_ problem, it is in scope for the CTTE. Bottom line: Ian did nothing wrong. -- // If you believe in so-called intellectual property, please immediately // cease using counterfeit alphabets. Instead, contact the nearest temple // of Amon, whose priests will provide you with scribal services for all // your writing needs, for Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory prices. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141109181953.ga22...@angband.pl
Re: Please more fish (was: so long and thanks for all the fish)
On 2014-11-09 18:19, Adam Borowski wrote: And since changing the init system on existing installations is an important _technical_ problem, it is in scope for the CTTE. Where does the constitution make important technical problems in scope for the tech committee? (Not being awkward, but there's a reason that they're explicitly chartered to make decisions _as a point of last resort_.) Regards, Adam -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2ec0e5d4aa41bd836ea2d3d82db8b...@mail.adsl.funky-badger.org
Re: Please more fish (was: so long and thanks for all the fish)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Hi, On 09.11.2014 04:57, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote: In the end it's quite easy: sysvinit has many deficiencies ans missing feature, systemd is superior in all places. - From your perspective. I can completely understand why we (and that includes me) want systemd as a default: it gives the best possible integration of desktop components possible. However, there are use cases where systemd does not work because of software design choices that, again, are in the best interest of its users. This is a common pattern in software development. When designing a complex system, you have two extremes: 1. A system that covers all use cases by building a minimal framework and letting users fill in the rest via a scripting language. 2. An elaborate system that simplifies use for the majority of cases, uses a descriptive language for configuration, and falls flat for any case that is out of scope. Neither approach is inherently better than the other, but they can be better suited for particular applications, and the choice which to use is up to the user. The vast majority of software in the world can be compiled by invoking a compiler on all source files, and passing the compiler output to a linker. With that knowledge, we can create a simple build system that needs nothing but the name of the project, whether it is a program or a library and a list of dependencies. - From the point of view of an application developer, this is the best thing since sliced bread. Comparing - --- SOURCES = foo.c bar.c OBJECTS = $(SOURCES:.c=.o) DEPENDS = $(SOURCES:.c=.d) PREFIX = /usr/local foo: $(OBJECTS) $(CC) -o $@ $^ %.o: %.c $(CC) -MD -MF $*.d -c $ %.d: touch $@ clean: $(RM) foo *.o *.d install: foo $(INSTALL) -d $(DESTDIR)$(PREFIX)/bin $(INSTALL) foo $(DESTDIR)$(PREFIX)/bin/ - -include $(DEPENDS) - --- with the much shorter - --- bin_PROGRAMS = foo foo_SOURCES = foo.c bar.c - --- I think it is immediately clear which one is preferable. However, I doubt you'd get far trying to move the Linux kernel to automake, as it has additional requirements that cannot be represented in this way, and extending automake to handle these is a herculean task. The only thing *I* regret is that it's not really used to it's full potential - i.e. in some places it rather seem we just try to rebuild sysvinit in systemd, restricting ourselfs. The systemd architecture is, in my opinion, similar to automake. There is a descriptive language with lots of keywords, which allows you to do a lot of cool stuff easily, and at the same time, it is possible to leave the framework behind for missing functionality, with the same results for complexity and potential for error. The blog post[1] by joeyh about his alarm clock illustrates this, however you can already see that the framework is at its limits here, as it is necessary to run the job with root permissions so it can use an external tool to call back into the framework and inhibit lid switch handling while the job is running. At this point, I have to start asking questions: 1. What does inhibit mean? Will it ignore the events or just delay processing? 2. Is this behavior guaranteed, or is that an implementation detail? 3. Does this have security implications, like a lid switch event not being delivered to the screensaver? 4. Does this mean that other jobs will not start if they depend on the lid switch being open, when the lid was opened while the alarm clock was playing? 5. Is there a mechanism to be exempted from inhibit states? 6. If the events are queued, will similar events be coalesced, and will obsolete events be dropped? 7. Why inhibit handling the lid switch? Wouldn't it be better to have a mechanism to effect what we really want to do, stopping the system from going to sleep, rather than assuming that the reason the system would want to go back to sleep is the closed lid switch? The alarm clock example already escalated into a round of Cambridge Standard Five Cards Mao, with the condition of a rule being fulfilled leading to a temporary change of the rules. Managing this at a system level is a pure nightmare, especially when third party packages and local policies come into the mix as well. Restricting ourselves to a conservative default policy without any assumptions thus sounds sensible to me. One such assumption is whether we're running on a server, desktop or laptop system, which basically limits us to starting programs on conditions because we cannot really define a one-size-fits-all power policy. Simon [1] https://joeyh.name/blog/entry/a_programmable_alarm_clock_using_systemd/
Re: Please more fish (was: so long and thanks for all the fish)
2014-11-10 0:38 GMT+03:00 Simon Richter s...@debian.org: automake With autotools one can always use plain shell code in configure.ac and plain make in Makefile.am ;-) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/call-q8zejcqrokhyk0gxsczk+p6oz7ft8ro3jlawlkucmle...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Please more fish (was: so long and thanks for all the fish)
On Sun, 2014-11-09 at 18:12 -0400, Joey Hess wrote: I've left[1] + Almost. So you still could (and perhaps should[0]) reconsider not to leave Debian. Guess you've read the lists and saw how many people were emotionally hit and upset about this. (well I think it's worth a try ^^) Cheers, Chris. [0] Even though I don't believe you just randomly decided to leave in the first place. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: so long and thanks for all the fish
On Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 10:04 PM, Joey Hess jo...@debian.org wrote: It's become abundantly clear that this is no longer the project I originally joined in 1996. We've made some good things, and I wish everyone well, but I'm out. see shy jo :( Richard -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/cad77+gskxgomhyzkh22d1tb3ikcwswdjkypvfmo0jcmkhv6...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Please more fish (was: so long and thanks for all the fish)
On Sun, 2014-11-09 at 22:38 +0100, Simon Richter wrote: I can completely understand why we (and that includes me) want systemd as a default: it gives the best possible integration of desktop components possible. I even think it's best on a server (that means, if it was used as it could be)... With sysvinit it was basically not possible to make any guarantees, e.g. like start XYZ only when firewall rules were successfully loaded, at least not in a systematic fashion. Or things like: When iptables rules are reloaded, stop fail2ban before, restart it afterwards. Unforunately, even if systemd would support such nice things, nothing of this is deployed to the masses,... which is also why I wrote, that it sometimes feels as if we'd only try to map sysvinit into systemd. However, there are use cases where systemd does not work because of software design choices that, again, are in the best interest of its users. Well I guess that goes back into the init-system discussion ^^ That being said, I personally would welcome, if it was policy that it's not allowed to require a specific init-system (unless specifically related software). This is a common pattern in software development. When designing a complex system, you have two extremes: 1. A system that covers all use cases by building a minimal framework and letting users fill in the rest via a scripting language. ... which, especially in the complex cases, often lead to just more problems... I mean it's of course nice to be able to edit the init-scripts, add debug output, or adapt something to one's own very personal need. But often this also just means that either one isn't doing things right in the first place OR that the init script wasn't generically configurable enough. 2. An elaborate system that simplifies use for the majority of cases, uses a descriptive language for configuration, and falls flat for any case that is out of scope. Neither approach is inherently better than the other, but they can be better suited for particular applications, and the choice which to use is up to the user. Which is why I'm definitely in favour of init-system diversity. I think it is immediately clear which one is preferable. However, I doubt you'd get far trying to move the Linux kernel to automake, as it has additional requirements that cannot be represented in this way, and extending automake to handle these is a herculean task. Well I for the matter always hated autotools... (perhaps one should lobby Linus for CMake? ;) )... I think: an init-system shouldn't be programming,... one could always see that this basic idea is somehow broken, when programs (shell scripts) need to go to /etc,... and when people realised that this causes only troubles, they've started trying to make them generic enough to handle all cases and configurable via /etc/default/* The systemd architecture is, in my opinion, similar to automake. Well, in a way, surely... but then one need to question: Should an init system be a universal programming language or should it be a systematised framework to boot the system, start software and perhaps manage all this after boot. And *I* don't think it should be a universal programming language. In most cases where I've ever needed to manipulate init-scripts and doing advanced things, like not only starting one apache http but several, running as different user and that like (which is IIRC nowadays even supported by the init script, at least partially), one could also simply say, that the original init script was simply not powerful enough and should have been implemented better in the first place, to avoid any need to manipulate it. And speaking of things like autotools,... I'd also say that the world has mostly just benefit from systematising build procedures. Restricting ourselves to a conservative default policy without any assumptions thus sounds sensible to me. One such assumption is whether we're running on a server, desktop or laptop system, which basically limits us to starting programs on conditions because we cannot really define a one-size-fits-all power policy. Uhm, I absolutely agree with that,... but I don' think it's a problem of systemd per se - it's rather a problem of how it's used/configured. Unfortunately the general direction seems to be to assume a single user PC or even tablet,... which is why we have default settings like: mount a USB stick if plugged in, or what I recently found in virt-manager/libvirt/spice,... forward any usb stick plugged in automatically to guest VMs. But these problems aren't inherent to systemd or polkit,... it's rather bad default decisions being made by people who have only their won usage scenario in mind. This is one of the main reasons why I got more and more of a gnome and utopia-stuff critic. I also think it's potentially dangerous when systemd upstrem tries to revolutionise more and more things, which go far beyond any init system or process manager
Re: so long and thanks for all the fish
Joey, Am Freitag, 7. November 2014, 17:04:10 schrieb Joey Hess: It's become abundantly clear that this is no longer the project I originally joined in 1996. We've made some good things, and I wish everyone well, but I'm out. I am sad from reading this. I do not know you as a person, except from some of your blog entries. But its abundantly clear what contribution you made, what amount energy you put into the project. Which makes this even more saddening cause I imagine it has been a big reason for you to leave, as I bet with that much energy you have put it in, you wouldn´t leave on a minor issue. Its your decision, although I´d really appreciate if you reconsider after a while. Not knowing the context of your words as I just maintain a few packages that I get sponsored into the archive and follow lists on a irregular basis I wonder… what was the reason? What can Debian as a project and as a community learn from it? I am highly concerned by the state of discussions in Debian triggered by the systemd integration – I have never ever seen such a harsh, long and bitter discussion in Debian. I was concerned so much that I even tried to channel some of the concern upstream, but it seems I was not able to bring across that sometimes its not just all technical, but there is more to it – and keeping discussions to a sole technical level sometimes doesn´t work out when a lot of emotions are involved. But I don´t even know whether you leaving has to do anything with that process. So… if at some time… maybe not now, maybe later… I would appreciate if you share your reasons for leaving, not for accusing someone, but just from how you felt about things for those who remain with the project to learn from it. It may be easier to do this with a little time in between. Best, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: so long and thanks for all the fish
On Fri, 07 Nov 2014, Joey Hess wrote: originally joined in 1996. We've made some good things, and I wish everyone well, but I'm out. So long, and thanks for all the fish. We will miss you. Norbert PREINING, Norbert http://www.preining.info JAIST, Japan TeX Live Debian Developer GPG: 0x860CDC13 fp: F7D8 A928 26E3 16A1 9FA0 ACF0 6CAC A448 860C DC13 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141108101119.gi11...@auth.logic.tuwien.ac.at
Re: so long and thanks for all the fish
Quoting Joey Hess (2014-11-07 22:04:10) It's become abundantly clear that this is no longer the project I originally joined in 1996. We've made some good things, and I wish everyone well, but I'm out. :-( I am very sad that you leave. But also curious where you will go from here - many moves of yours have been quite inspiring for me. If I have one regret from my 18 years in Debian, it's that when the Debian constitution was originally proposed, despite seeing it as dubious, I neglected to speak out against it. It's clear to me now that it's a toxic document, that has slowly but surely led Debian in very unhealthy directions. Thanks for sharing. Food for thought! - Jonas -- * Jonas Smedegaard - idealist Internet-arkitekt * Tlf.: +45 40843136 Website: http://dr.jones.dk/ [x] quote me freely [ ] ask before reusing [ ] keep private signature.asc Description: signature
Re: so long and thanks for all the fish
On 11/07/14 23:04, Joey Hess wrote: It's become abundantly clear that this is no longer the project I originally joined in 1996. We've made some good things, and I wish everyone well, but I'm out. Extremely sad to read this, Joey. The few times we've crossed paths, I've enjoyed working with you (and on your ideas) incredibly. And of course I am -as we are all- enjoying the fruits of your efforts, on a daily basis. It's a big loss to the project. I have to say though, I share your sentiments to a very large degree: I am, too, quite disappointed from Debian's current state of affairs. More to the point, I am, too, quite disappointed by the current behavior of the CTTE and by extension, its members. If the CTTE needs to exist as a body, I am at least expecting from both the committee as a whole but from its individual members as well, to remain objective, act in a calm, wise and prudent manner, mediate, put out fires unite the project. We've seen some pretty reckless and divisive behavior this past year that would be unacceptable for any member of the project, let alone a CTTE member. I don't have high respect for the committee as a whole right now and this is probably the opposite of how it should be. This is clearly a difficult time for the project and, unfortunately, the CTTE is in the middle of this debate and I believe it has actively made things worse. I don't think the CTTE members share this blame equally (not by a long shot), but especially considering the fact that it's a self-moderated body, noone is innocent here. Best, Faidon -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/545de691.2090...@debian.org
Re: so long and thanks for all the fish
2014-11-08[Sat]11:38 Roman Czyborra read that 2014-11-08[Sat]10:46 Faidon Liambotis wrote 545de691.2090...@debian.org: Extremely sad to read this, Joey. The few times we've crossed paths, I've enjoyed working with you (and on your ideas) incredibly. And of course I am -as we are all- enjoying the fruits of your efforts, on a daily basis. It's a big loss to the project. Where is Joey Hess going to? Exists a better contract than Debian's? On 11/07/14 23:04, Joey Hess wrote: It's become abundantly clear that this is no longer the project I originally joined in 1996. We've made some good things, and I wish everyone well, but I'm out. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/alpine.deb.2.02.1411081138280.12...@new.woffs.de
Re: so long and thanks for all the fish
On Fri, Nov 7, 2014 at 10:04 PM, Joey Hess jo...@debian.org wrote: If I have one regret from my 18 years in Debian, it's that when the Debian constitution was originally proposed, despite seeing it as dubious, I neglected to speak out against it. It's clear to me now that it's a toxic document, that has slowly but surely led Debian in very unhealthy directions. We're fucked! (in my perception of this language there is no better way to say this). I know that no person is irreplaceable, but for as long as I know Debian, I have experienced Joey as a voice of reason -- seemingly indistractable from technical matters, and one of the giants whose proverbial shoulders are carrying this project. If the trajectory towards a more inclusive project does not have enough room to accommodate people like him, I doubt that the price we need to pay for the achieving this goal is worth it. Michael
Re: so long and thanks for all the fish
On Fri, 07 Nov 2014, Joey Hess wrote: originally joined in 1996. We've made some good things, and I wish everyone well, but I'm out. So long, and thanks for all the damn hard work and working code. May you live long, prosper, and continue to inspire others to greatness. -- not cent from sell May the LORD God bless you exceedingly abundantly! Dave_Craig__ So the universe is not quite as you thought it was. You'd better rearrange your beliefs, then. Because you certainly can't rearrange the universe. __--from_Nightfall_by_Asimov/Silverberg_ signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: so long and thanks for all the fish
Am Samstag, 8. November 2014, 10:19:02 schrieb Martin Steigerwald: Joey, Am Freitag, 7. November 2014, 17:04:10 schrieb Joey Hess: It's become abundantly clear that this is no longer the project I originally joined in 1996. We've made some good things, and I wish everyone well, but I'm out. I am sad from reading this. I do not know you as a person, except from some of your blog entries. But its abundantly clear what contribution you made, what amount energy you put into the project. Which makes this even more saddening cause I imagine it has been a big reason for you to leave, as I bet with that much energy you have put it in, you wouldn´t leave on a minor issue. Its your decision, although I´d really appreciate if you reconsider after a while. Not knowing the context of your words as I just maintain a few packages that I get sponsored into the archive and follow lists on a irregular basis I wonder… what was the reason? What can Debian as a project and as a community learn from it? Okay, I got the context meanwhile from some links to mails from you out of a Phoronix forum thread the proposal you seconded with the current GR. I am not sure what I make out of this and how this really became so serious for you that you leave. [1] http://www.phoronix.com/forums/showthread.php?108809-Joey-Hess-Resigns-From-Debian-Unhappy-With-How-It-s-Changedp=451178#post451178 [2] https://www.debian.org/vote/2014/vote_003 Ciao, -- Martin 'Helios' Steigerwald - http://www.Lichtvoll.de GPG: 03B0 0D6C 0040 0710 4AFA B82F 991B EAAC A599 84C7 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
Re: so long and thanks for all the fish
On Sat, 08 Nov 2014, Michael Hanke wrote: If I have one regret from my 18 years in Debian, it's that when the Debian constitution was originally proposed, despite seeing it as dubious, I neglected to speak out against it. It's clear to me now that it's a toxic document, that has slowly but surely led Debian in very unhealthy directions. We're fucked! Whenever I thought that things could go right once for a change, this news came. Well done my lovely community (I will wear this blame badge from now on too)! (in my perception of this language there is no better way to say this). I wholeheartedly agree. Joey, no words would be sufficient to express my gratitude to you for all what you have done for the Debian project. No other day would be alike now in Debian when you are gone. I really hope, that if not through the full parentship of this baby of yours, you will still keep an eye on your kid(s), express your opinion and share technical expertise one way or another from time to time. Let's may be call this not a retirement but rather sending kids to college transition -- 18 years is about the right age they say? Please don't give up on us entirely! Please???!!! -- Yaroslav O. Halchenko, Ph.D. http://neuro.debian.net http://www.pymvpa.org http://www.fail2ban.org Research Scientist,Psychological and Brain Sciences Dept. Dartmouth College, 419 Moore Hall, Hinman Box 6207, Hanover, NH 03755 Phone: +1 (603) 646-9834 Fax: +1 (603) 646-1419 WWW: http://www.linkedin.com/in/yarik -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141108151532.gd30...@onerussian.com
Re: so long and thanks for all the fish
Hi, On Fri, Nov 07, 2014 at 05:04:10PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote: It's become abundantly clear that this is no longer the project I originally joined in 1996. We've made some good things, and I wish everyone well, but I'm out. I share your feelings. Back in those days you and Joey were the reasons for me to join Debian. In Oldenburg at the m68k Hacker meeting i showed up with a complete mips and mipsel port done and had been hosting a Debian mirror for a while. You two told me there was no way around than to associate more with Debian - so i did. I just installed moon-buggy just to remember those days ;) m68k is gone - You are gone. Wish you all the best. Flo -- Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: so long and thanks for all the fish
Joey Hess dijo [Fri, Nov 07, 2014 at 05:04:10PM -0400]: It's become abundantly clear that this is no longer the project I originally joined in 1996. We've made some good things, and I wish everyone well, but I'm out. How can the Master Fisherman thank us for all the fish? Yes, pulling the fish out has been a collective work so far. But your work has been so inspiring and so helpful to the project as a whole that there is no way not to miss you. There is no way not to look up to your example, being one of the most prolific and technically diverse people I have had the pleasure of knowing, and being socially intelligent enough to stay clear of flames. Best luck in all your future projects, Joey. It has been a pleasuuure being in the same boat as you for the past eleven years. I hope we cross paths again in the future. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: so long and thanks for all the fish
zlatan zla...@riseup.net writes: In advance sorry for all spelling mistake that I will write as I am writing from my phone and I am not a native English speaker. [...] And yet, I don't see how it could have been said better. Thank you so much for putting this into words. I just want the warm community feel back where we do not need some special technical process to reach some consensus but a nice talks between friends because we are afterall friends here. A family. So, please, lets care for each other and do a handshaking and hugging as a consensus for everything. +1 -- Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org) http://www.eyrie.org/~eagle/ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/87ppcx18ph@hope.eyrie.org
Please more fish (was: so long and thanks for all the fish)
On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 8:08 PM, Russ Allbery wrote: zlatan writes: In advance sorry for all spelling mistake that I will write as I am writing from my phone and I am not a native English speaker. [...] And yet, I don't see how it could have been said better. Thank you so much for putting this into words. How can you possibly think no more need said? You are one of four complicit in the act that finally pushed Joey over the edge [0]. The fire bell is ringing, and no one is getting out of bed. The legitimacy of the technical committee has been entirely destroyed by misguided acts over the last year. The sad part is that this all would have been avoided if the composition were more mindfulness of potential consequence to their actions, especially in the face of some observers stating exactly that during the process. For the technical committee to regain any stasis of legitimacy, the composition must change. All those involved (both explicitly and complicity) in the vote that caused Joey's suicide from Debian should consider resigning in shame. Even then,we need to reconsider the implicit danger of imbuing power that can do so much damage to a potentially non-representative subset of project members. Best wishes, Mike [0] https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/11/msg00045.html -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CANTw=MO52GAMLEayYX5w6T2+uQqh4uqaopRsj220_kdT=yz...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Please more fish (was: so long and thanks for all the fish)
On Sat, 2014-11-08 at 22:32 -0500, Michael Gilbert wrote: You are one of four complicit in the act that finally pushed Joey over the edge [0]. Don't you think it goes a bit far to personally accusing some people of this? I guess Joey was long enough in the business to have known how to deal with people he may have fought or disagreed with... and even if there may have been something that gave the final spark for him to decide to leave (there always must be, right?), it was likely no decision that evolved out of wrath in one specific matter. I'd think that if one has devoted so many years of one's own life into some project, then such decision is very well made and evolved over some long time. Since after all, for someone who spend so much time for a project, leaving it will actually mean a considerable chance of his life. The fire bell is ringing, and no one is getting out of bed. Well that's probably a different topic, isn't it? As the recent discussions have shown, there are many people who feel Debian goes the wrong way in some fields - but I wouldn't make this all up to systemd. I mean I have my concerns as well, mainly what happens to the BSDs, and that I dislike the strong integration of systems that get too complex (this always failed sooner or later)... but this is less the fault of systemd itself, is it? In the end it's quite easy: sysvinit has many deficiencies ans missing feature, systemd is superior in all places. The only thing *I* regret is that it's not really used to it's full potential - i.e. in some places it rather seem we just try to rebuild sysvinit in systemd, restricting ourselfs. And for all people who are so unhappy with how GNOME develops,... well I'm so either, but there are alternatives and as long as these can be used, everything's fine. But apart from these flame wars... giving personal responsibility to someone seems really a bad way... if Debian starts engaging in that, then it will really suffer terribly. Actually I've just waited for it to happen, nevertheless it's kinda disturbing. Instead of further adding fuel to the fire, one should perhaps better try to have people reconciling and maybe convince Joey to rescind from leaving and remain in the project he spend so much time of is life for. The legitimacy of the technical committee has been entirely destroyed by misguided acts over the last year. Well others would say that decisions had to be made, and the best that was possible might have been done? All those involved (both explicitly and complicity) in the vote that caused Joey's suicide from Debian should consider resigning in shame. suicide? o.O Even then,we need to reconsider the implicit danger of imbuing power that can do so much damage to a potentially non-representative subset of project members. Quite often it also seems to be one of Debian's biggest issues, not to have such leading people at least decide anything. Cheers, Chris. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/1415505472.4593.8.ca...@scientia.net
Re: Please more fish (was: so long and thanks for all the fish)
On Sat, Nov 8, 2014 at 10:57 PM, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote: On Sat, 2014-11-08 at 22:32 -0500, Michael Gilbert wrote: You are one of four complicit in the act that finally pushed Joey over the edge [0]. Don't you think it goes a bit far to personally accusing some people of this? No accusation, just a statement of fact. Four ctte members were complicit in the vote [0] that catalyzed Joey's resignation. The fire bell is ringing, and no one is getting out of bed. Well that's probably a different topic, isn't it? As the recent discussions have shown, there are many people who feel Debian goes the wrong way in some fields - but I wouldn't make this all up to systemd. No, the fire is not systemd, it is the politicization of the project via ctte and GR rather than patient evolution of the best technical solution. The legitimacy of the technical committee has been entirely destroyed by misguided acts over the last year. Well others would say that decisions had to be made, and the best that was possible might have been done? Sometimes the best decision is none at all. It can sometimes take a lot of time for the right solution to evolve, but that requires patience, and the project seems to have lost that quality. That is why Joey is gone. Best wishes, Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CANTw=MP6-eb9_b3Q1E2kh+BJW7J_L+81Bz8o=mpaeav8bcx...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Please more fish (was: so long and thanks for all the fish)
On Sat, 2014-11-08 at 23:30 -0500, Michael Gilbert wrote: No accusation, just a statement of fact. Four ctte members were complicit in the vote [0] Well maybe I read that ruling wrong, but didn't it more or less say we're not deciding anything right now? And even if that decision would be the sole reason for Joey to leave (which I don't know whether it is, but I'd guess it's probably not)... the tech-ctte member probably decide to their best knowledge. And especially they cannot, nor should say, make their decision based on the fear that otherwise XYZ might leave. And I'm absolutely *not* implying that this happened here - but since you accuse the tech-ctte (or some of it's members) to be responsible for Joey to leave, it probably needed to be said. No, the fire is not systemd, it is the politicization of the project via ctte and GR rather than patient evolution of the best technical solution. And you really believe that this would have been ever solved by evolution? I strongly doubt. You see how some people insist on sysvinit these days - sometimes (not always) it looks they'd only do so to be against systemd. You also see how many people were in favour of upstart - and I doubt that Shuttleworth would have basically killed the project as he did (quite quickly) after the decision, though he could have prevented so many useless fights from happening in Debian... o.O All of these systems were capable of booting a Linux,... and you really think one of them would have won sooner or later by technical evolution? I doubt. The technical superior system was IMHO rather clear from the beginning,... and it were political reasons that prevented it from winning immediately. The legitimacy of the technical committee has been entirely destroyed by misguided acts over the last year. Well others would say that decisions had to be made, and the best that was possible might have been done? Sometimes the best decision is none at all. Sometimes,... but in many other cases it's also the worst choice. We have so many things that would have never come true if not a single decision in favour of them would have been made. Basically everything which spans more than a few (unrelated) packages needs this. Look at the controversial proposals for some security things I've made in the past,... I usually had the feeling that people in principle agreed that it would be a good thing to take action there, but since all of them require quite some work in many fields and no decision was made, nothing of these will ever be solved. It can sometimes take a lot of time for the right solution to evolve, but that requires patience, and the project seems to have lost that quality. This can however also mean that we always stand still, and just pursue the evolutions that others made. Never wondered why things like systemd or upstart didn't originate in Debian? Cheers, Chris. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: Please more fish (was: so long and thanks for all the fish)
On Sun, Nov 9, 2014 at 12:01 AM, Christoph Anton Mitterer wrote: On Sat, 2014-11-08 at 23:30 -0500, Michael Gilbert wrote: No accusation, just a statement of fact. Four ctte members were complicit in the vote [0] Well maybe I read that ruling wrong, but didn't it more or less say we're not deciding anything right now? And even if that decision would be the sole reason for Joey to leave Please actually read Joey's message to understand his concern, which is not at all about content or systemd, but the harmful actions of some project members and the complicity of others in those actions over some significant time now. Best wishes, Mike -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CANTw=mmlzugz44byvimaog9c4j-0prqfz_i6tksgzqacogs...@mail.gmail.com
so long and thanks for all the fish
It's become abundantly clear that this is no longer the project I originally joined in 1996. We've made some good things, and I wish everyone well, but I'm out. Note that this also constitutes an orphaning as upstream of debhelper, alien, dpkg-repack, and debmirror. I will be making final orphaning uploads of other packages that are not team maintained, over the next couple of days, as bandwidth allows. If I have one regret from my 18 years in Debian, it's that when the Debian constitution was originally proposed, despite seeing it as dubious, I neglected to speak out against it. It's clear to me now that it's a toxic document, that has slowly but surely led Debian in very unhealthy directions. -- see shy jo signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: so long and thanks for all the fish
Hi, 2014-11-07 22:04 GMT+01:00 Joey Hess jo...@debian.org: It's become abundantly clear that this is no longer the project I originally joined in 1996. We've made some good things, and I wish everyone well, but I'm out. Note that this also constitutes an orphaning as upstream of debhelper, alien, dpkg-repack, and debmirror. I will be making final orphaning uploads of other packages that are not team maintained, over the next couple of days, as bandwidth allows. If I have one regret from my 18 years in Debian, it's that when the Debian constitution was originally proposed, despite seeing it as dubious, I neglected to speak out against it. It's clear to me now that it's a toxic document, that has slowly but surely led Debian in very unhealthy directions. I don't know you, but I taking part of Debian since potato. All I can say is: :/ Debian needs all passion it can get and it is sad that this project can consume so much until someone can not provide more. This - I guess - it the matter of responsibility and pushing it too far ... maybe. So all what is left to say: good luck and have fun. Be blessed :) Greetings, Björn PS: Oh, before I forget ... a last * -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/cagmps55addt61za5hxphntv69qjutl5qjulgnyzkk7yfbhm...@mail.gmail.com
Re: so long and thanks for all the fish
On Nov 07, Joey Hess jo...@debian.org wrote: It's become abundantly clear that this is no longer the project I originally joined in 1996. We've made some good things, and I wish everyone well, but I'm out. Well, this sucks. -- ciao, Marco signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: so long and thanks for all the fish
On Fri, Nov 07, 2014 at 05:04:10PM -0400, Joey Hess wrote: It's become abundantly clear that this is no longer the project I originally joined in 1996. We've made some good things, and I wish everyone well, but I'm out. Note that this also constitutes an orphaning as upstream of debhelper, alien, dpkg-repack, and debmirror. Aww, and I postponed harassing you about a new dh_ script I'd want until after the freeze frenzy goes down... :/ Thanks for all your good work! -- // If you believe in so-called intellectual property, please immediately // cease using counterfeit alphabets. Instead, contact the nearest temple // of Amon, whose priests will provide you with scribal services for all // your writing needs, for Reasonable and Non-Discriminatory prices. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141107214921.gb14...@angband.pl
Re: so long and thanks for all the fish
Joey Hess jo...@debian.org writes: It's become abundantly clear that this is no longer the project I originally joined in 1996. We've made some good things, and I wish everyone well, but I'm out. I'm gutted. If I have one regret from my 18 years in Debian, it's that when the Debian constitution was originally proposed, despite seeing it as dubious, I neglected to speak out against it. It's clear to me now that it's a toxic document, that has slowly but surely led Debian in very unhealthy directions. You're not wrong. It's always been fun working with you -- Good luck with your next enthusiasm :-) Cheers, Phil. -- |)| Philip Hands [+44 (0)20 8530 9560] HANDS.COM Ltd. |-| http://www.hands.com/http://ftp.uk.debian.org/ |(| Hugo-Klemm-Strasse 34, 21075 Hamburg,GERMANY pgp5F2kYd9_yZ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: so long and thanks for all the fish
Joey Hess wrote: It's become abundantly clear that this is no longer the project I originally joined in 1996. We've made some good things, and I wish everyone well, but I'm out. (Insert record-scratch sound-effect and sounds of brain rebooting here.) Thank you deeply for your work. It saddens me no end to see Debian drive away one of its most valuable contributors and long-standing fixtures. Between debhelper and d-i, I can think of few if any Debian developers who have had as significant an impact as you have. You will be missed. - Josh Triplett -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/2014110702.GA4347@jtriplet-mobl1
Re: so long and thanks for all the fish
Hi Joey, among all the Debian developers you have been one of the most inspiring to me. I hope that you will keep your blog syndicated on planet.debian.org ! Cheers, -- Charles Plessy Tsurumi, Kanagawa, Japan -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141107223551.gd31...@falafel.plessy.net
Re: so long and thanks for all the fish
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 In advance sorry for all spelling mistake that I will write as I am writing from my phone and I am not a native English speaker. I am emotionally crushed by this. You are one of two DD's I interviewed for our LUG in Banja Luka, shortly after conference. You were among first people I saw when I came early in morning to Vaumarcus. You're by your contributions to Debian already a legendary DD. Stories are told among Free software users about you and your life. I want to say to you no, no, no. Don't leave the project for which you and many other will become like grandparents in another 18 years. You, bdale, vorlon, moray, holger and other long time Debian people should be there, become Debian Oldmen that will pass stories on DebConfs about our community project early days and its rise to glory. Please, for a day, sit down and consider all of us who care for well-being of Debian community, who care on personal level a lot. If you can do that, please do. Speaking of community, I know my voice is yet small, but I think many have expressed and agree that we look more complicated then government structures. We really need to change this because its killing the community feeling and its draining energy from our members. I mean whats next in this sad show? We are going to loose mbiebel, gunnar, zack? Am I going to come to are DebConf where bdale and keithp will not be there to talk about rockets? Where zack will not educate us about Free software? Where holger will not be there to help video team? I am sorry if I sound silly but its hard to see people leave because they got emotionally burned out. I love to see bubulle posting his love for running or looking at enrico's talks because his funny ways of presenting is cheering me up in sucky days. Heck I could say some unique thing for every single person. I just want the warm community feel back where we do not need some special technical process to reach some consensus but a nice talks between friends because we are afterall friends here. A family. So, please, lets care for each other and do a handshaking and hugging as a consensus for everything. With love, zlatan P.S. I didn't get chance to harass paultag in Portland and if he leaves the project I am leaving Earth P.P.S. Joey, if you in the end really leave - I wish you good luck in all you do On 7 November 2014 22:04:10 CET, Joey Hess jo...@debian.org wrote: It's become abundantly clear that this is no longer the project I originally joined in 1996. We've made some good things, and I wish everyone well, but I'm out. Note that this also constitutes an orphaning as upstream of debhelper, alien, dpkg-repack, and debmirror. I will be making final orphaning uploads of other packages that are not team maintained, over the next couple of days, as bandwidth allows. If I have one regret from my 18 years in Debian, it's that when the Debian constitution was originally proposed, despite seeing it as dubious, I neglected to speak out against it. It's clear to me now that it's a toxic document, that has slowly but surely led Debian in very unhealthy directions. -- see shy jo - -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: APG v1.0.9 iQJSBAEBCAA8BQJUXUuKNRxabGF0YW4gVG9kb3JpYyAoRGViaWFuZXIpIDx6bGF0 YW4udG9kb3JpY0BnbWFpbC5jb20+AAoJEC5cILs3kzv9pAYQAJHEYPBvZblk1WNo LyxAt9gFvCkzZ+PXjbv9QNkZwZlxhuQOOIPbnjKPQgtdrP8F6Qsigw5l3RR4ddNG R35GCku07dmaxQQeKCF44rPxhnZ8AELQJHyGKQWlxfmACPmUd+/7U4+V7FrcL+S9 i39GPulo9NSqikhQO8aV1eFJjnQW5zpdo49+66r/wkqH7Y9ps4+O3lcb7VdOOjg4 p0s23oiDEtfwhV5PP3HXN24U17fRRt6Z0oZTlcLOszWNACrYGwn32Bqk9CYdNqvx ClH4n91kx6Ud8WfhzknFW37w8MCddMWhvBZajmHNsqaEpZ6v3SHea+weAWpRuGmX MdTnB/QtG+xCL8eJ8chFzM2SCIXgYsUM40Qo09a/2zvtvVYZjN8hxi2rBxJLn75p nzzFnh3AbG0QBdM78Z87vmN6u7Kp2lDNDwZbenB4CRoZGNbnN0tbrEpWyboQ1ujV 9b0Dv1F9GngODP2hkW2Ni/FgVz1Opadmf5+S2f7E656LkUuKSAqSq/U2RlfxkATP LaE9juMQLVK8inVZ5Bkqs1EzDvhy8w4KyZzTiKFbZoHvIK2mMV87K6JmYXq2Eyk6 canZjU5lPu9OIGUD11AMlkGUnw7e/usKN95kO631PhKv1MYNmPEoKTJrIrved+fW 8rJ6tT2ebAyMwGjW584f6onhDq+u =/mWq -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/c6e80a23-650d-4a0d-8dd0-7576be5df...@riseup.net
Re: so long and thanks for all the fish
Joey Hess jo...@debian.org writes: It's become abundantly clear that this is no longer the project I originally joined in 1996. We've made some good things, and I wish everyone well, but I'm out. Thank you. You've been a model Debian member to many of us, and I will miss your inspiration and clear-headedness. -- \ “Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?” “I think so, | `\Brain, but if we get Sam Spade, we'll never have any puppies.” | _o__) —_Pinky and The Brain_ | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/85mw824lwk@benfinney.id.au
Re: so long and thanks for all the fish
On Fri, 2014-11-07 at 17:04 -0400, Joey Hess wrote: but I'm out. Wow what saddening news :-( It's really a pity to good ones leaving... hope you'd reconsider your decision and come back after some break perhaps! If not, all the best and thanks. Cheers, Chris. smime.p7s Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature
Re: so long and thanks for all the fish
Ew. I've always thought you have been providing Debian with very sensible thoughts and guiding. Your wisdom will be missed. Wishing you the best. Samuel -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/20141108012909.go3...@type.youpi.perso.aquilenet.fr
Re: so long, and thanks for all the fish
On Sat, Apr 06, 2013 at 01:55:24AM +0100, Aneurin Price wrote: On 4 April 2013 18:28, ian_br...@fastmail.net wrote: There is apparently no mode of argument, or style of communications, which is capable of penetrating the Debian bureaucracy. It is impervious, even to patches which have been previously solicited. Silly me, for taking that seriously. You need to remember that the Debian project is essentially masturbation. Nobody likes to be told they're doing it wrong. Are you pulling my leg? -- If you're not careful, the newspapers will have you hating the people who are being oppressed, and loving the people who are doing the oppressing. --- Malcolm X -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130407110010.GC24249@tal
Re: so long, and thanks for all the fish
On 4 April 2013 18:28, ian_br...@fastmail.net wrote: There is apparently no mode of argument, or style of communications, which is capable of penetrating the Debian bureaucracy. It is impervious, even to patches which have been previously solicited. Silly me, for taking that seriously. You need to remember that the Debian project is essentially masturbation. Nobody likes to be told they're doing it wrong.
so long, and thanks for all the fish
On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 12:45:55 -0300 Ben Armstrong sy...@debian.org wrote: Just take care in future that the style of communications you used triggered someone's wetware spam filter with a false positive. I initially wrote up a detailed bug report, and then when somebody suggested that the problem would get fixed faster if a patch were provided, I wrote that too. Somebody else pointed out that the patch contained a bashism, which couldn't be used in the installer, so I fixed that within a day. It was then objected that the patch might break something, so I wrote a set of test scripts to show that it produced exactly the same results as the existing code if operated in decimal mode, and offered to write tests for binary mode, if anybody could suggest what would constitute acceptable correctness proofs. I then waited for eight months for any indication that the slightest notice would be taken of any of this. http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=684128 Seeing none, and concluding that a technical style of communications had failed, it occurred to me to resort to allegory, and a literary reference which I thought would be both familiar and directly relevant. http://lists.debian.org/debian-boot/2013/04/msg00020.html When THAT disappeared into a black hole, another literary reference came to mind (1984, if anyone cares). http://lists.debian.org/debian-devel/2013/04/msg00176.html Apparently some conclusions are so obvious that they may never be mentioned. Learn and move on. Yes, indeed. What I've learned is that technical arguments, and patches offered in support of them, will be either completely ignored, apparently forever, or actually ridiculed as being incredibly picky and splitting hairs. Previous experience with the Debian BTS suggests that if I presume to offer ANY technical comment at all, I may be subjected to personal insults and told to keep my mouth shut. http://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=495049 Attempts to reason by way of analogy to different but parallel situations, while quoting directly from previous argument, will be assumed to be spam, and vaporized at the click of a mouse button. So you win. There is apparently no mode of argument, or style of communications, which is capable of penetrating the Debian bureaucracy. It is impervious, even to patches which have been previously solicited. Silly me, for taking that seriously. As for moving on, I think I will, to some other project where they don't think that lying to absolutely everybody who installs it, about the size of their disk partitions, by as much as seven or ten percent, is a matter of complete indifference, to be dismissed in favour of More Important Things. And in case you hadn't noticed, the subject line of this message is yet a THIRD literary reference. I guess you're well rid of me and my spam. Goodbye. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130404102855.23cbee0e.ian_br...@fastmail.net
Re: so long, and thanks for all the fish
On 04/04/13 02:28 PM, ian_br...@fastmail.net wrote: On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 12:45:55 -0300 Ben Armstrong sy...@debian.org wrote: Just take care in future that the style of communications you used triggered someone's wetware spam filter with a false positive. I initially wrote up a detailed bug report, and then when somebody suggested that the problem would get fixed faster if a patch were provided, I wrote that too. TL;DR Sorry, I, personally, do not care -- note: neither this nor my previous response represent the project as a whole, but is solely *my* opinion -- about the long and sordid tale of your bid to get attention for this bug. I only chimed in because your ranting, baseless accusations against the project all hinged on your assumption that someone was out to get you whereas, in fact, it seemed obvious to me why someone mistook your response for spam, and I had hoped to get through to you on that one point. Well, if you can't learn from that and modify your approach, and thus you have decided to put your energies elsewhere, maybe it is best for all parties involved. Ben -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/515dd856.8020...@debian.org
Re: so long, and thanks for all the fish
On Thu, 04 Apr 2013 16:45:26 -0300 Ben Armstrong sy...@debian.org wrote: the long and sordid tale of your bid to get attention for this bug That's right; I wrote it up in detail, provided patches when asked to do so, provided test scripts to demonstrate the correctness of those patches, answered every question and objection raised about it. And then waited patiently to see if any notice would be taken of it. In silence. For eight months. Hearing nothing, I concluded that my previous mode of argument was not persuasive, and decided to try something else. That disappeared into thin air. I wondered whether anybody thought that was a problem, and asked. So here we are. What could possibly be longer and more sordid than that? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130404131126.4bfd237d.ian_br...@fastmail.net
