Re: system time has change while installing
On Mi, 19 iun 13, 17:27:56, Konstantin Khomoutov wrote: On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 13:39:31 +0100 Steve McIntyre st...@einval.com wrote: [...] Storing local time in the hardware clock is utterly wrong for many reasons. The only reason Microsoft have continued to ship Windows configured this way is the usual backwards-compatibility problem. If you're running on a system without the limitations of DOS, there is no good reason to perpetuate the crap this way: store UTC and leave the clock alone. But this a) would require tweaking Windows [1] in case of dual-boot; b) show bogus time in BIOS setup screen. Why is UTC time bogus? Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: system time has change while installing
On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 10:47:12AM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: Why is UTC time bogus? If you set your BIOS clock to show the current time in the UTC time zone, it will confuse people who think the BIOS clock shows the local time on Mars. -- http://www.cafepress.com/trunktees -- geeky funny T-shirts http://gtdfh.branchable.com/ -- GTD for hackers -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130620075033.GI4278@havelock
Re: system time has change while installing
On Jo, 20 iun 13, 08:50:33, Lars Wirzenius wrote: On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 10:47:12AM +0300, Andrei POPESCU wrote: Why is UTC time bogus? If you set your BIOS clock to show the current time in the UTC time zone, it will confuse people who think the BIOS clock shows the local time on Mars. Believe me, I know what you mean. I've set my own (dual-time) clock to UTC for practical purposes[1] and it confuses a lot of people, even though the offset here is only 2 hours (3 with DST). This still doesn't make it bogus, unless I'm misunderstanding the meaning of the word. [1] I work for an airline and UTC is used in many places. Kind regards, Andrei -- http://wiki.debian.org/FAQsFromDebianUser Offtopic discussions among Debian users and developers: http://lists.alioth.debian.org/mailman/listinfo/d-community-offtopic signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: system time has change while installing
Steve McIntyre steve at einval.com writes: So apply the registry fix if you care about a system with the This is probably bad advice: http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/~mgk25/mswish/ut-rtc.html tl;dr: Running NT with RTC in UTC and timezone ≠ UTC is buggy. Of course, just setting a UTC timezone (without any DST) and doing the calculations by head will work ;-) bye, //mirabilos -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/loom.20130620t104206-...@post.gmane.org
Re: system time has change while installing
Am 19.06.2013 18:12, schrieb Steve Langasek: The *only* argument for using local time in the system clock is so that the time displayed in the timezone-ignorant BIOS will be correct. But who looks at the time in the BIOS anyway? Windows is doing ;) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: system time has change while installing
On Thu, 20 Jun 2013 10:47:12 +0300 Andrei POPESCU andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote: Storing local time in the hardware clock is utterly wrong for many reasons. The only reason Microsoft have continued to ship Windows configured this way is the usual backwards-compatibility problem. If you're running on a system without the limitations of DOS, there is no good reason to perpetuate the crap this way: store UTC and leave the clock alone. But this a) would require tweaking Windows [1] in case of dual-boot; b) show bogus time in BIOS setup screen. Why is UTC time bogus? Well, I am simply afraid of a possible knee-jerk reaction of an admin who for whatever reason manages to hit the BIOS setup program and sees martian time there, which they would likely attempt to fix. I mean, keeping the time, which BIOS thinks is local, as UTC is certainly possible but it requires implementing a policy, so that everyone managing such a machine should be trained to keep that in mind. Now imagine a heterogenous environment (as I do have at my $dayjob) where there's lots of Windows machines and a number of Debian (and other Linux-based) machines. I positively see no reason to introduce distinctions between these boxes with regard to their BIOS time. This is really an implementation detail. IMO, putting a string LOCAL to the /etc/adjtime file is way less hassle to carry out than implementing a policy and training admins. For a bedroom x86 machine, keeping its BIOS time as UTC is perfectly acceptable as it usually has zero to one administrators. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130620133602.a3f4c0a6367fbbd7edd67...@domain007.com
Re: system time has change while installing
On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 01:36:02PM +0400, Konstantin Khomoutov wrote: Why is UTC time bogus? Well, I am simply afraid of a possible knee-jerk reaction of an admin who for whatever reason manages to hit the BIOS setup program and sees martian time there, which they would likely attempt to fix. I mean, keeping the time, which BIOS thinks is local, as UTC is certainly possible but it requires implementing a policy, so that everyone managing such a machine should be trained to keep that in mind. The training is simple: use NTP, on every single machine, always. If the time is off this means your network or NTP client is down. The RTC clock is needed only during boot-up. Now imagine a heterogenous environment (as I do have at my $dayjob) where there's lots of Windows machines and a number of Debian (and other Linux-based) machines. I positively see no reason to introduce distinctions between these boxes with regard to their BIOS time. This is really an implementation detail. IMO, putting a string LOCAL to the /etc/adjtime file is way less hassle to carry out than implementing a policy and training admins. Except, there's a laundry list of possible breakage caused by RTC using the local time when DST changes are involved. For a bedroom x86 machine, keeping its BIOS time as UTC is perfectly acceptable as it usually has zero to one administrators. I'd say, it's only bedroom machines (and sometimes student labs) that dual boot Windows with other systems. On a server, you really don't want sudden failure, possibly with data loss, to happen if it's rebooted during one of those four hours a year[1]. Failures I've read about that did not involve a reboot at that time all had Windows involved somehow, so I hope during the remaining 8762 hours you should be safe. Still, off hours are when you tend to do maintenance, and you don't want a leisure upgrade to become an urgent search for backups. [1]. Usually, a particular problem applies to only one of those hours, but with different issues in mind all four are at risk. -- ᛊᚨᚾᛁᛏᚣ᛫ᛁᛊ᛫ᚠᛟᚱ᛫ᚦᛖ᛫ᚹᛖᚨᚲ -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130620113214.ga14...@angband.pl
Re: system time has change while installing
On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 01:43:08AM +0400, Maxim Markov wrote: Hello. I use debian-live-7.0.0-amd64-gnome-desktop. And it has error in Time Zones Settings. System Time changes during installation. It`s possible that date can changes too. for example: when i boot from livecd i change location settings from London to Russia (Asia), Krasnoyarsk and my system time changes from 20:20 to 04:20 example2: when i install version to hdd my system time changed from 00:50 to 08:50 i suppose that error present in other versions. same problem i noticed in Scientific Linux. i use ROSA Desktop Fresh and looks like it hasn`t error. in my own apinion: date and time must be stay as it set in local pc, while time zones parameters sets in configs. This isn't actually an error. But perhaps an issue with PC design. The internal clock of your PC stores a time and date, but it DOESN'T store which time zone you're in. All it stores is, for example, 20:20. When you install a new OS, it reads that time and must make one of two assumtions: Either the time is stored as local time (in which case no adjustment is necessary, but there may be issues when Daylight Saving Time comes into effect) or atomic time, UTC (in which case 8 hours must be added on before displaying the time to the user). There is no right or wrong answer to which method to use. Linux assumes the hardware uses UTC, Windows assumes it uses local time. Both can be configured to use either method (https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Time#Time_standard) and it's best if they agree. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: system time has change while installing
Darac Marjal wrote: This isn't actually an error. But perhaps an issue with PC design. The internal clock of your PC stores a time and date, but it DOESN'T store which time zone you're in. All it stores is, for example, 20:20. When you install a new OS, it reads that time and must make one of two assumtions: Either the time is stored as local time (in which case no adjustment is necessary, but there may be issues when Daylight Saving Time comes into effect) or atomic time, UTC (in which case 8 hours must be added on before displaying the time to the user). Correct. There is no right or wrong answer to which method to use. Linux assumes the hardware uses UTC, Windows assumes it uses local time. Both can be configured to use either method (https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Time#Time_standard) and it's best if they agree. Storing local time in the hardware clock is utterly wrong for many reasons. The only reason Microsoft have continued to ship Windows configured this way is the usual backwards-compatibility problem. If you're running on a system without the limitations of DOS, there is no good reason to perpetuate the crap this way: store UTC and leave the clock alone. -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/e1uphff-0007hx...@mail.einval.com
Re: system time has change while installing
On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 05:27:56PM +0400, Konstantin Khomoutov wrote: On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 13:39:31 +0100 Steve McIntyre st...@einval.com wrote: [...] Storing local time in the hardware clock is utterly wrong for many reasons. The only reason Microsoft have continued to ship Windows configured this way is the usual backwards-compatibility problem. If you're running on a system without the limitations of DOS, there is no good reason to perpetuate the crap this way: store UTC and leave the clock alone. But this a) would require tweaking Windows [1] in case of dual-boot; So apply the registry fix if you care about a system with the limitations of DOS. b) show bogus time in BIOS setup screen. Really, who cares what time the BIOS says? -- Steve McIntyre, Cambridge, UK.st...@einval.com C++ ate my sanity -- Jon Rabone -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130619133206.ga27...@einval.com
Re: system time has change while installing
On Wed, 19 Jun 2013 13:39:31 +0100 Steve McIntyre st...@einval.com wrote: [...] Storing local time in the hardware clock is utterly wrong for many reasons. The only reason Microsoft have continued to ship Windows configured this way is the usual backwards-compatibility problem. If you're running on a system without the limitations of DOS, there is no good reason to perpetuate the crap this way: store UTC and leave the clock alone. But this a) would require tweaking Windows [1] in case of dual-boot; b) show bogus time in BIOS setup screen. 1. http://superuser.com/a/185780/130459 -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130619172756.e2f94ca56de4f4b6222ff...@domain007.com
Re: system time has change while installing
On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 09:10:06AM +0100, Darac Marjal wrote: This isn't actually an error. But perhaps an issue with PC design. The internal clock of your PC stores a time and date, but it DOESN'T store which time zone you're in. All it stores is, for example, 20:20. When you install a new OS, it reads that time and must make one of two assumtions: Either the time is stored as local time (in which case no adjustment is necessary, but there may be issues when Daylight Saving Time comes into effect) or atomic time, UTC (in which case 8 hours must be added on before displaying the time to the user). There is no right or wrong answer to which method to use. Linux assumes the hardware uses UTC, Windows assumes it uses local time. Both can be configured to use either method (https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/Time#Time_standard) and it's best if they agree. No, there is a right answer: use UTC for the system clock, always. Using local time means the value stored in the system clock *must be changed* across daylight savings time boundaries, which is stupid. The *only* argument for using local time in the system clock is so that the time displayed in the timezone-ignorant BIOS will be correct. But who looks at the time in the BIOS anyway? -- Steve Langasek Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS Debian Developer to set it on, and I can move the world. Ubuntu Developerhttp://www.debian.org/ slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: system time has change while installing
On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 09:12:37AM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote: [...] The *only* argument for using local time in the system clock is so that the time displayed in the timezone-ignorant BIOS will be correct. But who looks at the time in the BIOS anyway? No, the major reason is compatibility with Windows on a dual-boot system. But it will still get screwed up if Linux does the DST adjustment. EFI apparently records the current time zone offset of the RTC, which would allow this to be fixed, but I don't think that Linux pays any attention to that yet. Ben. -- Ben Hutchings We get into the habit of living before acquiring the habit of thinking. - Albert Camus -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130619185626.gx4...@decadent.org.uk
Re: system time has change while installing
On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 07:56:26PM +0100, Ben Hutchings wrote: On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 09:12:37AM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote: [...] The *only* argument for using local time in the system clock is so that the time displayed in the timezone-ignorant BIOS will be correct. But who looks at the time in the BIOS anyway? No, the major reason is compatibility with Windows on a dual-boot system. But it will still get screwed up if Linux does the DST adjustment. EFI apparently records the current time zone offset of the RTC, which would allow this to be fixed, but I don't think that Linux pays any attention to that yet. Actually, doing the DST adjustment in the OS without storing that it has been done in the BIOS will always fail. (I expect Windows to also use its own records, not the BIOS, as a reference to see if it is set correctly.) I've seen people who had their RTC set to local time because otherwise the clock would be wrong in Windows, then they pretty much stopped using Windows, and noticed (weeks after the clock was to be changed) that their clock didn't correct for DST. So they changed their time manually. But when some weeks later Windows was booted, it said oh, I didn't change your time yet; better do it now and it was an hour off again. I now tell everyone to just go and install ntp. Who needs a system clock if there is internet? :-) Thanks, Bas -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130619193911.gb28...@fmf.nl
Re: system time has change while installing
On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 09:39:11PM +0200, Bas Wijnen wrote: On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 07:56:26PM +0100, Ben Hutchings wrote: On Wed, Jun 19, 2013 at 09:12:37AM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote: [...] The *only* argument for using local time in the system clock is so that the time displayed in the timezone-ignorant BIOS will be correct. But who looks at the time in the BIOS anyway? No, the major reason is compatibility with Windows on a dual-boot system. But it will still get screwed up if Linux does the DST adjustment. EFI apparently records the current time zone offset of the RTC, which would allow this to be fixed, but I don't think that Linux pays any attention to that yet. Actually, doing the DST adjustment in the OS without storing that it has been done in the BIOS will always fail. [...] Assuming you mean 'BIOS' in the common sense of 'PC firmware', the time zone offset stored by EFI would include any offset for DST. The historical problem on PCs has been that neither the RTC hardware nor BIOS calls provided anywhere to store that information. Ben. -- Ben Hutchings We get into the habit of living before acquiring the habit of thinking. - Albert Camus -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-devel-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: http://lists.debian.org/20130619211031.gz4...@decadent.org.uk
system time has change while installing
Hello. I use debian-live-7.0.0-amd64-gnome-desktop. And it has error in Time Zones Settings. System Time changes during installation. It`s possible that date can changes too. for example: when i boot from livecd i change location settings from London to Russia (Asia), Krasnoyarsk and my system time changes from 20:20 to 04:20 example2: when i install version to hdd my system time changed from 00:50 to 08:50 i suppose that error present in other versions. same problem i noticed in Scientific Linux. i use ROSA Desktop Fresh and looks like it hasn`t error. in my own apinion: date and time must be stay as it set in local pc, while time zones parameters sets in configs. -- Maxim Markov
