Re: what about a unofficial public community repo? (was: Re: qmail and related packages in NEW)
Romain Beauxis [EMAIL PROTECTED] (29/11/2008): Or mentors.debian.net ? Source-only. Mraw, KiBi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: what about a unofficial public community repo? (was: Re: qmail and related packages in NEW)
Miriam Ruiz dijo [Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 02:37:16AM +0100]: DDs would be discouraged from participating since they should be supporting packages/etc within Debian instead. I'm not exactly sure about this. I have quite a lot of packages that I made for my own usage but I don't have time or interest in maintaining on a permanent basis. I guess that's something that happens to more DDs out there. We could upload these packages there as: here you are, if it's useful for you it's great, but I don't plan on supporting this package more than this. Does it make sense? I agree with Miry here - I also have my personal repository of packages I often use (i.e. Drupal modules and Munin plugins for work, or the acerfand fan controlling daemon for my Acer Aspire One) which I won't maintain in Debian - Why? In some cases, I don't want to upload something I don't fully trust, and in some, I just know I would be a lousy maintainer (i.e. I don't grok php, which is used for every Drupal module - I just use them and want to be able to track them as packages). But, yes, it should not promote the idea that is NEW-processing taking too long? Just upload to -unsupported! -- Gunnar Wolf - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - (+52-55)5623-0154 / 1451-2244 PGP key 1024D/8BB527AF 2001-10-23 Fingerprint: 0C79 D2D1 2C4E 9CE4 5973 F800 D80E F35A 8BB5 27AF -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what about a unofficial public community repo? (was: Re: qmail and related packages in NEW)
William Pitcock dijo [Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 06:57:37PM -0600]: (...) What I propose is something more along the lines of Gentoo's sunrise overlay... a repository that anyone can get upload access to provided that they understand basic Debian policy and have established that they will be non-malicious (likely through some sort of indirect uploading for a few months). Basically a true *community* repo. Umh... If I am malicious, don't you think I will be able to behave for the first couple of months? Anyway, I don't expect -unsupported packages to rank very high popcon-wise. I think it will suffice to say clearly and loudly enough, this is not Debian, you are using this at your own risk. Maybe to be as obnoxious with this as to provide an unsigned archive, so that aptitude (or whatever tool) _always_ complains when installing from there. Probably the only thing that must be kept (almost?) as strict as it is in Debian (+non-free) is the licensing checks - Even if it is at -unsupported, we cannot distribute non-distributable software. This would likely be with the packaging source being maintained in SVN, so that there is a large amount of transparency in the maintenance process. Yes, having a VCS-based service looks as very important in my eyes. -- Gunnar Wolf - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - (+52-55)5623-0154 / 1451-2244 PGP key 1024D/8BB527AF 2001-10-23 Fingerprint: 0C79 D2D1 2C4E 9CE4 5973 F800 D80E F35A 8BB5 27AF -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what about a unofficial public community repo? (was: Re: qmail and related packages in NEW)
Raphael Geissert dijo [Fri, Nov 28, 2008 at 10:05:23PM -0600]: William Pitcock wrote: [...] The ideal way to handle this would be to have a single repository. PPAs solve a different problem, which is giving contributors and developers a playground to publish their in-progress packages. This is more about getting packages to users in an efficient way, for maintainers that do not wish to include those packages in Debian proper for either policy reasons, code quality reasons, or otherwise. Solution: http://their.domain.tld/debian sid main The problem there is for this is that people want their work to be known by more people. Have you seen how outdated apt-get.org is? It was a valuable resource back then, but... Well, last time I checked, there were still several Potato backports for software in Woody. Oh, and right now it has become completely useless - It says it knows about 1448 sites, but lists only one: http://ftp.debian.org/debian Why do people even want to care about those packages? I mean, why would one want to use a package which has dubious quality, dubious maintenance, dubious origins (can it even be legally distributed/used/etc?), dubious insert whatever you want here?. If a package is not in shape, then get it in shape. If they don't know how to setup a simple repository or don't know how to package and are not willing to learn, then they should just forget about it and install the software by hand (if they know how to do that, of course). There's no reason to spend/waste more time/resources on all that extra stuff only newcomers will, wrongly, use. I have to agree with you on this rant, as a DD. However, there are LOTS of software which are not up to Debian's standards in this-or-that regard. Having an infrastructure where just about anybody can upload packages (with just a legality check, I'd say) is positive. Then again... We can direct them to Ubuntu ;-) They are offering the service with their PPAs. -- Gunnar Wolf - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - (+52-55)5623-0154 / 1451-2244 PGP key 1024D/8BB527AF 2001-10-23 Fingerprint: 0C79 D2D1 2C4E 9CE4 5973 F800 D80E F35A 8BB5 27AF -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what about a unofficial public community repo? (was: Re: qmail and related packages in NEW)
Bas Zoetekouw wrote: For completeness sake: QA does not thow out orphanes packages just for being orphaned. If they are orphaned, RC-buggy, hardly used, and alternatives are available, only then they are candidates for removal. You missed Debconf8's BoF I guess. Bast regards, Bas. Cheers, Raphael Geissert -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what about a unofficial public community repo? (was: Re: qmail and related packages in NEW)
Am 2008-11-28 15:42:34, schrieb William Pitcock: I think issues like these call for an unsupported repository outside of Debian, but publicized within the community as an unofficial repository for things like qmail, packages unwanted in Debian proper for the time being, etc. http://www.apt-get.org/ Thanks, Greetings and nice Day/Evening Michelle Konzack Systemadministrator 24V Electronic Engineer Tamay Dogan Network Debian GNU/Linux Consultant -- Linux-User #280138 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org/ # Debian GNU/Linux Consultant # Michelle Konzack Apt. 917 ICQ #328449886 +49/177/935194750, rue de Soultz MSN LinuxMichi +33/6/61925193 67100 Strasbourg/France IRC #Debian (irc.icq.com) signature.pgp Description: Digital signature
what about a unofficial public community repo? (was: Re: qmail and related packages in NEW)
Hi, On Fri, 2008-11-28 at 20:51 +0100, Neil Williams wrote: Can you advise me on how to get out of that dilemma? Stop trying to get qmail into Debian? or Take on upstream development of qmail and solve all the problems (whether qmail will then be recognisable compared to the existing packages that do the same job, I have no idea). I think issues like these call for an unsupported repository outside of Debian, but publicized within the community as an unofficial repository for things like qmail, packages unwanted in Debian proper for the time being, etc. That way if people want to run qmail, they can easily get it, but under the understanding that it was unofficial and totally unsupported by Debian itself. (A debbugs installation could be provided for maintainers if necessary though.) We could also use this repository as a way for teaching new maintainers (as an alternative to sponsorship, for the most part) -- packages that people use could be cherrypicked out of this archive by DDs who want the package in Debian. Thoughts? William signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: what about a unofficial public community repo? (was: Re: qmail and related packages in NEW)
Hi, On Friday 28 November 2008 22:42, William Pitcock wrote: I think issues like these call for an unsupported repository outside of Debian, but publicized within the community as an unofficial repository for things like qmail, packages unwanted in Debian proper for the time being, etc. debian-unofficial.org regards, Holger pgpoyQt9XL95B.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: what about a unofficial public community repo? (was: Re: qmail and related packages in NEW)
Hi, On Fri, 2008-11-28 at 23:57 +0100, Holger Levsen wrote: Hi, On Friday 28 November 2008 22:42, William Pitcock wrote: I think issues like these call for an unsupported repository outside of Debian, but publicized within the community as an unofficial repository for things like qmail, packages unwanted in Debian proper for the time being, etc. debian-unofficial.org There's a few problems with debian-unofficial.org, as I see it: 1. It has the same quality requirements as Debian proper in terms of packaging and code quality -- in my way of interpreting things, qmail would not be acceptable here; 2. I believe, but may be wrong, that [EMAIL PROTECTED] is the only person who can actually add anything to it. So if daniel does not like qmail for example, it would not be added. What I propose is something more along the lines of Gentoo's sunrise overlay... a repository that anyone can get upload access to provided that they understand basic Debian policy and have established that they will be non-malicious (likely through some sort of indirect uploading for a few months). Basically a true *community* repo. This would likely be with the packaging source being maintained in SVN, so that there is a large amount of transparency in the maintenance process. William signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: what about a unofficial public community repo? (was: Re: qmail and related packages in NEW)
Hi, On Saturday 29 November 2008 01:57, William Pitcock wrote: What I propose is something more along the lines of Gentoo's sunrise overlay... a repository that anyone can get upload access to provided that they understand basic Debian policy and have established that they will be non-malicious (likely through some sort of indirect uploading for a few months). Basically a true *community* repo. just seen on #debian-community h01ger hmmm h01ger community-repo makes me think we should setup somethink like ubuntus PPA on debian-community.org h01ger interesting idea * h01ger scratches head regards, Holger Disclaimer: I have absolutly not the ressources to do this or help much with doing it. But I probably like to see this very much... /me needs sleep. BTW, d-c.org finally (since a bit of time) provides email and jabber accounts for Debian contributors! pgpHp1mFkKzkX.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: what about a unofficial public community repo? (was: Re: qmail and related packages in NEW)
On Sat, Nov 29, 2008 at 6:42 AM, William Pitcock [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think issues like these call for an unsupported repository outside of Debian, but publicized within the community as an unofficial repository for things like qmail, packages unwanted in Debian proper for the time being, etc. That way if people want to run qmail, they can easily get it, but under the understanding that it was unofficial and totally unsupported by Debian itself. (A debbugs installation could be provided for maintainers if necessary though.) We could also use this repository as a way for teaching new maintainers (as an alternative to sponsorship, for the most part) -- packages that people use could be cherrypicked out of this archive by DDs who want the package in Debian. I've long been thinking a debian-unsupported.org archive; something for all those packages that we don't support because they haven't been good enough to get into Debian or were chucked out of Debian, basically the Debian answer to Ubuntu's universe. The main reason I started thinking about this was that I got annoyed when QA folks chuck orphaned packages (i've changed my mind about this since though). However, this isn't the only reason I think this is a good idea - there are lots of packages and package repositories out there that Debian and our users could benefit from, but that are not up to scratch enough to support in Debian. Gathering these in one place would help our users to find packages for software they need but is unsupported. It would also help Debian get more popcon data about non-Debian packages and provide a source for rough packages. Some ramblings about what it might involve: strictly for packages not in Debian or not updated in Debian - any package not supported by Debian - it should whine about or reject directly uploaded packages that have a maintainer or where someone seems to be supporting a particular package by doing lots of uploads. automatic merging of packages removed from Debian and packages uploaded to Ubuntu, Nexenta, Preventa, mentors, revu and any other Debian-based distros that have public archives. addition of automatically created packages using the tool that was recently posted about on debian-devel software would be a combination of dak, ubuntu's merge-o-matic (or similar), maybe debbugs, pdo, pts, patches.u.c, maybe DDPO, buildd stuff, lintian and perhaps others. DDs would be discouraged from participating since they should be supporting packages/etc within Debian instead. Allow uploads from DDs, DMs, NMs, DD-connected mentors.d.n keys, DD-connected REVU keys, Ubuntu developer keys, Ubuntu MOTU keys and people in a separate MOTU (master of the unsupported) keyring that is relatively easy to get into. Infrastructure should be similarly supported and hosted by mainly non-DDs; buildds, porting machines and so on. not sure if integrating debian-ports.org there is appropriate or not, but maybe it would be a good idea later down the track. A while ago on -devel there was a post about automatic creation of rough packages using automatic software discovery and AI techniques for the packaging, I definitely want to feed that into this idea. Once all the repositories are merged into one place, then we can export all their patches against debiann to merge.debian.net and have that linked from the PTS like patches.ubuntu.com is. More about that idea here: http://wiki.debian.org/MergeDerivedDistributions -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what about a unofficial public community repo? (was: Re: qmail and related packages in NEW)
2008/11/29 Paul Wise [EMAIL PROTECTED]: DDs would be discouraged from participating since they should be supporting packages/etc within Debian instead. I'm not exactly sure about this. I have quite a lot of packages that I made for my own usage but I don't have time or interest in maintaining on a permanent basis. I guess that's something that happens to more DDs out there. We could upload these packages there as: here you are, if it's useful for you it's great, but I don't plan on supporting this package more than this. Does it make sense? Greetings, Miry -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what about a unofficial public community repo? (was: Re: qmail and related packages in NEW)
On Sat, 29 Nov 2008 10:28:58 +0900 Paul Wise wrote: Infrastructure should be similarly supported and hosted by mainly non-DDs; buildds, porting machines and so on. Actually I was thinking about something similar yesterday. Asa non-DD it is very hard to reproduce bugs from arches you don't own, so why not build a network of buildds, accessible by non-DDs where they can test their stuff? Count on me on this, I offer my UltraSparc IIe as a playground :) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what about a unofficial public community repo? (was: Re: qmail and related packages in NEW)
Hi, On Sat, 2008-11-29 at 02:19 +0100, Holger Levsen wrote: Hi, On Saturday 29 November 2008 01:57, William Pitcock wrote: What I propose is something more along the lines of Gentoo's sunrise overlay... a repository that anyone can get upload access to provided that they understand basic Debian policy and have established that they will be non-malicious (likely through some sort of indirect uploading for a few months). Basically a true *community* repo. just seen on #debian-community h01ger hmmm h01ger community-repo makes me think we should setup somethink like ubuntus PPA on debian-community.org h01ger interesting idea * h01ger scratches head As mentioned on #debian-community, I don't think PPAs are the right way to address this because PPAs are separate from each other, and therefore require many sources.list lines. The ideal way to handle this would be to have a single repository. PPAs solve a different problem, which is giving contributors and developers a playground to publish their in-progress packages. This is more about getting packages to users in an efficient way, for maintainers that do not wish to include those packages in Debian proper for either policy reasons, code quality reasons, or otherwise. William signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: what about a unofficial public community repo? (was: Re: qmail and related packages in NEW)
Le Friday 28 November 2008 23:57:09 Holger Levsen, vous avez écrit : On Friday 28 November 2008 22:42, William Pitcock wrote: I think issues like these call for an unsupported repository outside of Debian, but publicized within the community as an unofficial repository for things like qmail, packages unwanted in Debian proper for the time being, etc. debian-unofficial.org Or, why not apt-get.org ? Or mentors.debian.net ? Honnestly, I fail to see clearly the benefit of it, apart from more confusion and new issues.. Romain -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: what about a unofficial public community repo? (was: Re: qmail and related packages in NEW)
William Pitcock wrote: [...] The ideal way to handle this would be to have a single repository. PPAs solve a different problem, which is giving contributors and developers a playground to publish their in-progress packages. This is more about getting packages to users in an efficient way, for maintainers that do not wish to include those packages in Debian proper for either policy reasons, code quality reasons, or otherwise. Solution: http://their.domain.tld/debian sid main Why do people even want to care about those packages? I mean, why would one want to use a package which has dubious quality, dubious maintenance, dubious origins (can it even be legally distributed/used/etc?), dubious insert whatever you want here?. If a package is not in shape, then get it in shape. If they don't know how to setup a simple repository or don't know how to package and are not willing to learn, then they should just forget about it and install the software by hand (if they know how to do that, of course). There's no reason to spend/waste more time/resources on all that extra stuff only newcomers will, wrongly, use. Or do we have so much man power that there's no much left to do but to waste it? William P.S. no need to reply; I just can't stand seeing this topic being brought to discussion over and over again, always suggesting the same, silly IMO, solutions. Cheers, Raphael Geissert -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
