Re: NEW handling: About rejects, and kernels
Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: Perhaps this could be solved with some kind of ticket system handling email to the official roles in debian? I'm not sure if BTS is the best option to handle emails to ftpmaster, leader and others. Perhaps request-tracker is a better option? We use it at work, and it seem to do request handling quite well (at least when we added the email administration interface. :). What's the problem with using ftp.debian.org pseudo-package? Regards, ogi -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: NEW handling: About rejects, and kernels (Was: Re: NEW handling ...)
On Tue, Mar 22, 2005 at 09:06:19AM -0300, Humberto Massa wrote: And I believe that the Vancouver proposal, if implemented as intended up to now, will not only affect what Debian really *is*, but in some ways will *destroy* what Debian is. Debian has already decided to destroy what it is by giving in to the crackpots who insist that everything is software. -- Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception. -- Mark Twain -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
NEW handling: About rejects, and kernels (Was: Re: NEW handling ...)
[ Please followup to the right list depending on the contents of your reply. Be aware I'm not subscribed to -kernel, so Cc me if needed ] On Mon, Mar 21, 2005 at 08:14:37AM +0100, Sven Luther wrote: [huge rant about NEW and hurting kernel stuff etc etc] Three remarks: Rejecting those would lead in a pissed kernel maintainer team i would say. Please be aware that NEW processing is human work. There's quite a big backlog (currently still over 300 while I feel a lot got done already), and I at least try to err on the side of caution. This means, and yes, it already happenen, that it will occasionally happen we will reject an upload by mistake. If this happens to you, just reply to the mail (as its footer says, if you don't understand the reject, reply) and it will looked into. Of course, if we decide it was a mistake and your package should be accepted, we'll process it out-of-order (The mistake I rectified yesterday was in NEW for 70 seconds, surely a record). Taking it as offence and acting accordingly could have negative effects on swift reprocessing. I think i would have warranted at least a reply on this case, don't you think ? Maybe, if one would reply to all mails you send out, one wouldn't have time for ANY other Debian work. For example, you contributed 75 mails[1] within 24 hours to the Vancouver thread, consisting (excluding quoted text) of about 7522 words in 43kB of hand-written text[2]. I'm sorry, but you think it's weird people can't resist accidentally hitting the 'd' key when seeing an incoming mail from you? Anyway, regarding kernels: I can imagine sometimes, especially with the backlog we have currently, a swift processing of some kernel package might be warranted and help Sarge. If there is such a case, it would help if someone other than yourself from the kernel team contact the right email address[3] about it, I had a hard time distilling from your mails if and which packages would genuinly benefit sarge if they were processed swiftly, of course together with a short and factual explanation. You can also try to make a release-team-person ask, but they are also busy people, so why bother them? Thanks, --Jeroen [1] http://lists.debian.org/~jeroen/sven-vancouver-24h.mbox [2] wget -qO- http://lists.debian.org/~jeroen/sven-vancouver-24h.body \ grep -v '^' | wc [3] http://www.debian.org/intro/organization -- Jeroen van Wolffelaar [EMAIL PROTECTED] (also for Jabber MSN; ICQ: 33944357) http://Jeroen.A-Eskwadraat.nl -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: NEW handling: About rejects, and kernels (Was: Re: NEW handling ...)
On Mon, Mar 21, 2005 at 03:11:06PM +0100, Jeroen van Wolffelaar wrote: [ Please followup to the right list depending on the contents of your reply. Be aware I'm not subscribed to -kernel, so Cc me if needed ] On Mon, Mar 21, 2005 at 08:14:37AM +0100, Sven Luther wrote: [huge rant about NEW and hurting kernel stuff etc etc] Three remarks: Rejecting those would lead in a pissed kernel maintainer team i would say. Please be aware that NEW processing is human work. There's quite a big which is my main grip with the subpart of it which could be automated. For example, kernel-source-2.6.11 was just uploaded today, which means a plethora of uploads all needing NEW processing. Can you give me any reason why this really needs NEW processing, and why you don't thrust the kernel-team on this ? backlog (currently still over 300 while I feel a lot got done already), and I at least try to err on the side of caution. This means, and yes, it already happenen, that it will occasionally happen we will reject an the problem is not the reject, is the no news in weeks and no communication channel open. But again, i think and hope that this will become better now. upload by mistake. If this happens to you, just reply to the mail (as its footer says, if you don't understand the reject, reply) and it will looked into. Of course, if we decide it was a mistake and your package should be accepted, we'll process it out-of-order (The mistake I rectified yesterday was in NEW for 70 seconds, surely a record). Taking it as offence and acting accordingly could have negative effects on swift reprocessing. There was no real swift processing in the past. Also, i believe that if packages are being considered and have some problems, it would be best to include the maintainer having made the upload into this process as early as possible. I think i would have warranted at least a reply on this case, don't you think ? Maybe, if one would reply to all mails you send out, one wouldn't have time for ANY other Debian work. For example, you contributed 75 mails[1] within 24 hours to the Vancouver thread, consisting (excluding quoted text) of about 7522 words in 43kB of hand-written text[2]. I'm sorry, but you think it's weird people can't resist accidentally hitting the 'd' key when seeing an incoming mail from you? Well, sending email to a discussion forum like debian-devel, and sending email to a debian-role like ftp-master is not comparable, and i think it shows a profund lack of responsability on your part even suggesting this. How would you feel about a developer ignoring bug report from a certain person just because he has posted a big amount of emails to debian-devel ? And a falling-in-his-duties DD has at least the QA team and the MIA check to watch over him, while the ftp-masters can have any uncontrolled whim and we have no choice but to abide by them. Furthermore i see a serious failing in your logic, in the fact that the emails you quote are posterior to the failure of reply from the ftp-master's office, and can thus not be used to excuse it. Anyway, regarding kernels: I can imagine sometimes, especially with the backlog we have currently, a swift processing of some kernel package might be warranted and help Sarge. If there is such a case, it would help if someone other than yourself from the kernel team contact the right email address[3] about it, I had a hard time distilling from your Why not me ? I would very much like a reason for that, am i in some way blacklisted ? and if so for what reason ? And is this reason an acceptable one, i seriously doubt so. I am part of the kernel team, and i did work on my other packages which are more or less in good state, as well as actively participated in the debian-installer work. Why should you not threat a question on my part as from any other developer ? And if you do not, would it not be understandable that i feel irritated by this inacceptable behavior that has a blocking effect on my own participation to debian. mails if and which packages would genuinly benefit sarge if they were processed swiftly, of course together with a short and factual explanation. You can also try to make a release-team-person ask, but they are also busy people, so why bother them? Whatever. I believe that your response to email send to ftp-master's role in debian should not be influenced by any personal negative opinion you may have on me, even if it may be warranted. We all work together to make the debian release as great and swift as possible, and this kind of blacklisting of some of our developers is inacceptable, and a severe failure in the ftp-master's role responsability against the project. Friendly, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: *** SPAM *** Re: NEW handling: About rejects, and kernels (Was: Re: NEW handling ...)
On Mon, Mar 21, 2005 at 03:10:34PM +, Matthew Wilcox wrote: On Mon, Mar 21, 2005 at 03:20:29PM +0100, Sven Luther wrote: Anyway, regarding kernels: I can imagine sometimes, especially with the backlog we have currently, a swift processing of some kernel package might be warranted and help Sarge. If there is such a case, it would help if someone other than yourself from the kernel team contact the right email address[3] about it, I had a hard time distilling from your Why not me ? I would very much like a reason for that, am i in some way Because you are impossible to deal with. I think this mail from you shows all the characteristics which make you such a pain in the fucking arse. See a psychologist. Really. Thanks. Maybe i should resign from my debian duties then since i am not wanted. Do you volunteer to take over my packages ? Please handle parted for which i am searching a co-maintainer since 6 month, and take over the powerpc kernels as well as do my job in the debian kernel team, as well as the support of powerpc issues in d-i and the maintainance of a big part of the ocaml subset. Until you are ready to do that, it is not acceptable to imply that the ftp-masters can be made to fail their job and threat developers like dirt just because they have no counter power to them, and i should support every abuse of them. Not friendly anymore and expecting excuses from you Matthew and the whole ftp-master team for their discrimination of me. Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: NEW handling: About rejects, and kernels (Was: Re: NEW handling ...)
On Mon, Mar 21, 2005 at 03:20:29PM +0100, Sven Luther wrote: Anyway, regarding kernels: I can imagine sometimes, especially with the backlog we have currently, a swift processing of some kernel package might be warranted and help Sarge. If there is such a case, it would help if someone other than yourself from the kernel team contact the right email address[3] about it, I had a hard time distilling from your Why not me ? I would very much like a reason for that, am i in some way Because you are impossible to deal with. I think this mail from you shows all the characteristics which make you such a pain in the fucking arse. See a psychologist. Really. -- Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception. -- Mark Twain -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: NEW handling: About rejects, and kernels (Was: Re: NEW handling ...)
Dear, all, [...] I'm quite unhappy that this thread has turned so bad. Please, all of us who are part of this thread, can we please try to get the heat out. I think we all are happy that ftp-masters and -assistents are currently working on reducing the NEW queue to a reasonable size. This will have some good effect not only on the kernel, but also on every other package in Debian. I also think that we should be thankful for their hard work. Also, I think we all know that keeping the kernel in sync is currently a not too easy job. So, for very similar reasons, we all should be happy with the steady progress we're having on the kernel. If we consider woody's situation, we have by far too many kernel packages - a problem that was solved by the kernel team for sarge. So, we all are doing a hard job, and life is sometimes just stressing. It would be really great if we can manage to keep the heat out, that would help us all to do a better (and more enjoyable) job. Thanks for your attention, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ PGP 1024/89FB5CE5 DC F1 85 6D A6 45 9C 0F 3B BE F1 D0 C5 D1 D9 0C -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: *** SPAM *** Re: NEW handling: About rejects, and kernels (Was: Re: NEW handling ...)
On Mon, Mar 21, 2005 at 04:08:19PM +0100, Sven Luther wrote: Thanks. Maybe i should resign from my debian duties then since i am not wanted. Do you volunteer to take over my packages ? Please handle parted for which i am searching a co-maintainer since 6 month, and take over the powerpc kernels as well as do my job in the debian kernel team, as well as the support of powerpc issues in d-i and the maintainance of a big part of the ocaml subset. I think Debian would be better finding someone else to do those tasks, yes. I'm not going to volunteer for them as I intend to leave Debian shortly after sarge releases. I can't believe Debian is so short on skills that it needs you. Not friendly anymore and expecting excuses from you Matthew and the whole ftp-master team for their discrimination of me. Your emails have never had a friendly tone, despite the way you put friendly at the bottom of every one of them. -- Next the statesmen will invent cheap lies, putting the blame upon the nation that is attacked, and every man will be glad of those conscience-soothing falsities, and will diligently study them, and refuse to examine any refutations of them; and thus he will by and by convince himself that the war is just, and will thank God for the better sleep he enjoys after this process of grotesque self-deception. -- Mark Twain -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: *** SPAM *** Re: NEW handling: About rejects, and kernels (Was: Re: NEW handling ...)
On Mon, Mar 21, 2005 at 03:45:10PM +, Matthew Wilcox wrote: On Mon, Mar 21, 2005 at 04:08:19PM +0100, Sven Luther wrote: Thanks. Maybe i should resign from my debian duties then since i am not wanted. Do you volunteer to take over my packages ? Please handle parted for which i am searching a co-maintainer since 6 month, and take over the powerpc kernels as well as do my job in the debian kernel team, as well as the support of powerpc issues in d-i and the maintainance of a big part of the ocaml subset. I think Debian would be better finding someone else to do those tasks, yes. I'm not going to volunteer for them as I intend to leave Debian shortly after sarge releases. I can't believe Debian is so short on skills that it needs you. DON'T EVER ADDRESS ME IN THE FUTUR AND GET YOURSELF LOST. Anyway, i am out of this and you and Jeroen have managed to do it, and all those self-rigtheous ftp-master and other release team, who think someone complaining just whines, and don't care that they do exactly the same, or those who like to complain about being the recipient of flamewars, and then doing the exact same thing to others. Sven -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: NEW handling: About rejects, and kernels (Was: Re: NEW handling ...)
On Mon, Mar 21, 2005 at 03:11:06PM +0100, Jeroen van Wolffelaar wrote: Maybe, if one would reply to all mails you send out, one wouldn't have time for ANY other Debian work. For example, you contributed 75 mails[1] within 24 hours to the Vancouver thread, consisting (excluding quoted text) of about 7522 words in 43kB of hand-written text[2]. I'm sorry, but you think it's weird people can't resist accidentally hitting the 'd' key when seeing an incoming mail from you? And what about the email i sent to remove some erroneously ACCEPTED and then REJECTED kernel package from the REJECT queue ? I had to mail twice about this, and nothing ever happened for almost a month of so, all the while you where spamming all of debian-kernel daily with said bogus reject message ? Hurt, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: NEW handling: About rejects, and kernels
[Sven Luther] the problem is not the reject, is the no news in weeks and no communication channel open. But again, i think and hope that this will become better now. I agree. Complete silence and no feedback is a real problem when it happen, and only worse if it is an official debian role failing to communicate. But I believe things are improving a lot when it comes to the ftpmaster role, and have great hopes that Jeroen is part of the solution. :) Maybe, if one would reply to all mails you send out, one wouldn't have time for ANY other Debian work. No-one is asking anyone to reply to the wast flod of emails coming from Sven the last few days. But emails sent to the official debian role ftpmaster should get some kind of response. Well, sending email to a discussion forum like debian-devel, and sending email to a debian-role like ftp-master is not comparable, and i think it shows a profund lack of responsability on your part even suggesting this. I believe Joroen tried to express that mistakes do happen, and that the ftpmasters can delete email by mistake when their mailbox is filling up. Perhaps this could be solved with some kind of ticket system handling email to the official roles in debian? I'm not sure if BTS is the best option to handle emails to ftpmaster, leader and others. Perhaps request-tracker is a better option? We use it at work, and it seem to do request handling quite well (at least when we added the email administration interface. :). What surprises me is the energy and hostality Matthew Wilcox demonstrates by attacking you in later private emails. A good thing he isn't part of the ftpmaster team (as far as I can see). The ftpmasters seem to have a professional attitude towards the role they have in the project. I wish we could expect that from all the participants in the project. (But you are right, Sven. No-one should have to accept abuse for the work one does as a volunteer in the Debian project. That applies for both you, the ftpmasters, the release managers, all the debian developers and the users. Those unable to behave sivilised against their fellow volunteers should be ashamed of themselves.) -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: NEW handling: About rejects, and kernels
On Mon, Mar 21, 2005 at 05:40:44PM +0100, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: [Sven Luther] the problem is not the reject, is the no news in weeks and no communication channel open. But again, i think and hope that this will become better now. I agree. Complete silence and no feedback is a real problem when it happen, and only worse if it is an official debian role failing to communicate. But I believe things are improving a lot when it comes to the ftpmaster role, and have great hopes that Jeroen is part of the solution. :) No, he is not, as far as i am concerned, unless he presents his apologies first. Well, sending email to a discussion forum like debian-devel, and sending email to a debian-role like ftp-master is not comparable, and i think it shows a profund lack of responsability on your part even suggesting this. I believe Joroen tried to express that mistakes do happen, and that the ftpmasters can delete email by mistake when their mailbox is filling up. No, that is not acceptable, and probably not the right reason for this. Until evidence proves otherwise, it is just because they don't care to read those emails, and that that email address is simply forwarded to /dev/null. Perhaps this could be solved with some kind of ticket system handling email to the official roles in debian? I'm not sure if BTS is the best option to handle emails to ftpmaster, leader and others. Perhaps request-tracker is a better option? We use it at work, and it seem to do request handling quite well (at least when we added the email administration interface. :). That would be a solution. But then are the ftp-masters ready to get the problems they receive publicly visible ? What surprises me is the energy and hostality Matthew Wilcox demonstrates by attacking you in later private emails. A good thing he isn't part of the ftpmaster team (as far as I can see). The ftpmasters seem to have a professional attitude towards the role they have in the project. I wish we could expect that from all the participants in the project. No, a professional attitude would have them reply to the people they are working with. (But you are right, Sven. No-one should have to accept abuse for the work one does as a volunteer in the Debian project. That applies for both you, the ftpmasters, the release managers, all the debian developers and the users. Those unable to behave sivilised against their fellow volunteers should be ashamed of themselves.) but this have become the norm these past couple month, and Steve's 'proposal' was the last straw. Hurt, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: NEW handling: About rejects, and kernels
[Petter Reinholdtsen] in later private emails. This was a misunderstanding on my part, due to the fact that I received the replies from Sven before I received the replies from Matthew. The fact that the replies were done on public lists and not in private email do not change how I react to their content. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: NEW handling: About rejects, and kernels (Was: Re: NEW handling ...)
I'm quite unhappy that this thread has turned so bad. Please, all of us who are part of this thread, can we please try to get the heat out. I can't agree more. What I have seen up to now is make me very sad. Seeing Sven considering to resign is sad news for me. I won't play the others started first game, I leave this to my kids (well, probably even the youngest of them wouldn't play this game anymore). Up to now, I have seen very rude and unacceptable mails addressed directly to Sven Luther. There has been other rude mails sent to other people as well which is obviously unacceptable as well (no, Sven, not necessary from you). And I certainly missed a lot of other crap because I have read about 5% of these threads. The most difficult thing to do, especially by mail, is just recognizing that one went too far or just that you are wrong. Several people went too far in this thread. I think all should really consider doing what adult and mature people would do : just apologize, take a break and avoid definitive statementsand continue working in this project, because sometimes our arguments are not only out weakness but our strength. I don't agree with several things written by Sven here or there. I probably agree with a lot of others...and I just don't understand another bunch of such things. I have seen serious attempts to make proposals which seems quite constructive to me. I also have seen probably far too much mails (sorry, Sven, but IMHO you really should have slowed your contribution to all threads but, well, ce qui est fait est fait) But even what I may not agree with does not prevent me to consider that losing his valuable input is not good for this project, just like losing the work of any individual involved here would be bad. OK, people, as far as I have seen we are all supposed to be adult people herenot in a kind of kindergarten. So, who starts and just makes one or two steps backward. And, please no He should do so first answerfor $deity's sake, please be adult. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: NEW handling: About rejects, and kernels
[Sven Luther] No, he is not, as far as i am concerned, unless he presents his apologies first. For what? Commenting on your wast amount of email posted the last few days, and his suggestion that the amount of email could make the ftpmasters delete mails by mistake? I can not really believe that is your problem, so please enlighten me. No, that is not acceptable, and probably not the right reason for this. Until evidence proves otherwise, it is just because they don't care to read those emails, and that that email address is simply forwarded to /dev/null. I didn't say it was acceptable. I tried to put it in perspective. I'm well aware of at least some of the communication issues with the ftpmasters, but truly believe these problems are because the ftpmasters are overworked, not because they are evil. And I believe this even though one of the ftpmasters told me on IRC to stop wasting his time when I wanted to discuss making the list of packages in NEW public. I put it on the account of misjudgement during stress, not evil will. I suspect you would be better off if you accepted that misjudgement and mistakes happen also for the ftpmasters. After all, your emails haven't been the perfect examples of rational and clear speek either (though not as hostile as others on the list. :). I do not hold that against you, and wish you didn't hold such miscommunications and and misjudgements against the other volunteers in Debian. That would be a solution. But then are the ftp-masters ready to get the problems they receive publicly visible ? I didn't propose to make it all public. request-tracker is capable of fine grained access control. No, a professional attitude would have them reply to the people they are working with. Again, I agree that the ftpmaster role should reply to all requests. But if the volunteers filling this role are very busy, it does not help to shout at them and send even more email. A different solution must be found, and I hope and believe we are on our way to a solution to the problems the project is facing. but this have become the norm these past couple month, and Steve's 'proposal' was the last straw. I guess I do not read the proposal the way you read it. I read it as a document describing the problems the release team and the ftpmaster experiences with the release process, and their ideas on how to improve the situation. But first and formost, I read the proposal as a good step forward for the release of sarge. After all, the ideas for reorganizing the process for etch wasn't the most important part of the vancouver announcement. The most important part was that the release managers and the ftpmasters are coordinated in their work to release Sarge. Since the meeting 189 packages have been processed from the NEW queue. I believe this is the result of the meeting, where the ftpmasters was able to meet with prospective ftpmaster assistant. I also believe the increased effort to release sarge is a result of this meeting. Well, this email is already getting fairly long. Enough hot air from me this time, I believe. I am truly sorry for loosing you. You have done a good job helping Debian progress the state of free software, and it is sad that you decide to throw in the towel because of hard language from a fellow Debian volunteer. :( -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: NEW handling: About rejects, and kernels (Was: Re: NEW handling ...)
On Mon, Mar 21, 2005 at 06:34:00PM +0100, Christian Perrier wrote: I'm quite unhappy that this thread has turned so bad. Please, all of us who are part of this thread, can we please try to get the heat out. I can't agree more. What I have seen up to now is make me very sad. Seeing Sven considering to resign is sad news for me. ... Thanks for this, it is hearthening (or however you say that in english). I should really not have participated in that thread (and i resent a bit to Steve for it), and i am probably better of not following debian-devel, as i had not done for ages before. Still i believe i have made some constructive proposals, and even if my first posts may have been a bit too aggressive, for which i apologize, or too many, i think it is also a prove of the passion which lies on this issue. Something which has the potential to affect many of what we believe debian is, and which is handled by utter contempt, at least in the initial posting. Still hurt though, Sven Luther -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: NEW handling: About rejects, and kernels
On Mon, Mar 21, 2005 at 08:28:44PM +0100, Petter Reinholdtsen wrote: [Sven Luther] No, he is not, as far as i am concerned, unless he presents his apologies first. For what? Commenting on your wast amount of email posted the last few days, and his suggestion that the amount of email could make the ftpmasters delete mails by mistake? I can not really believe that is your problem, so please enlighten me. Sorry, but if they are not able to properly filter mails sent to the canonical ftp-master address from the rest of their personal mail, i don't think they are fit to do the job. Also, his hints that futur mail from me will be ignored is unaceptable as well, and i cannot work with people who don't take their responsabilities seriously. No, that is not acceptable, and probably not the right reason for this. Until evidence proves otherwise, it is just because they don't care to read those emails, and that that email address is simply forwarded to /dev/null. I didn't say it was acceptable. I tried to put it in perspective. I'm well aware of at least some of the communication issues with the ftpmasters, but truly believe these problems are because the ftpmasters are overworked, not because they are evil. And I believe The real problem is that they deny there is a problem, how do you hope to get it fixed then ? this even though one of the ftpmasters told me on IRC to stop wasting his time when I wanted to discuss making the list of packages in NEW public. I put it on the account of misjudgement during stress, not evil will. I suspect you would be better off if you accepted that misjudgement and mistakes happen also for the ftpmasters. After all, your emails So, but then i expect the same courtesy to go both ways, which it does not, and furthermore they have the ultimate power to hinder my work and make my live difficult, while the otherway is not true. With great power comes great responsability, and the lest of them is to be civil, and reply to emails sent by developers to the ftp-master role address. haven't been the perfect examples of rational and clear speek either (though not as hostile as others on the list. :). I do not hold that against you, and wish you didn't hold such miscommunications and and misjudgements against the other volunteers in Debian. No, but they plainly refuse to admit there is a problem, what hope do you see to it ever been fixed then ? That would be a solution. But then are the ftp-masters ready to get the problems they receive publicly visible ? I didn't propose to make it all public. request-tracker is capable of fine grained access control. No, a professional attitude would have them reply to the people they are working with. Again, I agree that the ftpmaster role should reply to all requests. But if the volunteers filling this role are very busy, it does not help to shout at them and send even more email. A different solution I sent perhaps 3-4 or in any case less than 10 emails to them, over the past two years. A couple of those was to have them clean up the reject queue which was spaming debian-kernel daily, this hardly is shouting and sending even more emails, isn't it. I sent one mail, and waited, and in the email spam case a second or third a couple of weeks later if i remember well. Someone who has not the time to reply to 3-4 civil emails in 2 years, well, he should probably reconsider his involvement or whatever. must be found, and I hope and believe we are on our way to a solution to the problems the project is facing. Let's hope so, but i have some doubts. but this have become the norm these past couple month, and Steve's 'proposal' was the last straw. I guess I do not read the proposal the way you read it. I read it as a document describing the problems the release team and the ftpmaster experiences with the release process, and their ideas on how to improve the situation. But first and formost, I read the proposal as a good step forward for the release of sarge. After all, the ideas for reorganizing the process for etch wasn't the most important part of the vancouver announcement. The most important part was that the release managers and the ftpmasters are coordinated in their work to release Sarge. Since the meeting 189 packages have been processed from the NEW queue. I believe this is the result of the meeting, where the ftpmasters was able to meet with prospective ftpmaster assistant. I also believe the increased effort to release sarge is a result of this meeting. What increasing effort, start a giant flamewar by being utterly contemptuous of our porters ? They could have published that part separatedly and post sarge or whatever. And i didn't see a single line of apology or recognition that they may have been wrong. I am truly sorry for loosing you. You have done a good job helping Debian progress the state of free software, and it is sad that you
