Re: EllisLab, Inc. CodeIgniter license

[Anthony W. Youngman]

In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Sean Kellogg 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes

On Wednesday 29 October 2008 06:45:19 pm Ben Finney wrote:

Francesco Poli [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 On Wed, 29 Oct 2008 21:08:54 +0100 Carl Fürstenberg wrote:
  This license is a legal agreement between you and EllisLab Inc.
  for the use of CodeIgniter Software (the Software). By obtaining
  the Software you agree to comply with the terms and conditions of
  this license.

 I don't particularly love licenses that claim they must be agreed
 upon just to *obtain* the Software.

Indeed. I don't know of any jurisdictions where these grasping clauses
are enforcible; one can't be held to an “agreement” that one had no
option to view or negotiate before the stated condition occurs.


Sure they can. If you don't agree to the terms of the license, then you don't 
have the right to have a copy of the work. In fact, you didn't even have the
right to make the copy in the first place. Now, I'm not claiming you can agree 
to something you haven't seen, but if you DO NOT agree, then you
don't have the right to have it in the first place, and so at a minmum a 
rights's holder can enforce their right to deny you a copy. Francesco says he
doesn't like licenses that require you to agree before you *obtain*... but one 
has to have permission to get the copy right from the get-go.


Reductio ad absurdam ...

In order to get a copy of the software you need to agree to the licence.
In order to agree to the licence, you need to be able to read the 
licence.

In order to read the licence you need to get a copy of the software.

Repeat ad nauseam.

In many/most jurisdictions, this is called a contract of adhesion, and 
is void ... as Ben said, you can't (in most circumstances) be held to an 
agreement where you were unable to provide informed consent (ESPECIALLY 
if the counter-party was responsible for that inability!).


Cheers,
Wol
--
Anthony W. Youngman - [EMAIL PROTECTED]


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Re: EllisLab, Inc. CodeIgniter license

[Ben Finney]

Anthony W. Youngman [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Sean Kellogg
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
 On Wednesday 29 October 2008 06:45:19 pm Ben Finney wrote:
  […] one can't be held to an “agreement” that one had no option
  to view or negotiate before the stated condition occurs.
 
 Sure they can. If you don't agree to the terms of the license, then
 you don't have the right to have a copy of the work. In fact, you
 didn't even have the right to make the copy in the first place.

Yet these conditions are presented on works where, often, the
recipient *didn't* make the copy; they received it from some other
party through sale or other distribution, and the terms were *not*
offered as a condition of sale but instead discovered afterward (if at
all).

 Now, I'm not claiming you can agree to something you haven't seen,
 but if you DO NOT agree, then you don't have the right to have it
 in the first place

You seem to be claiming that such conditions can be applied
retroactively: after legitimately obtaining the work and agreeing to
all conditions presented at that time, one can then be held to an
*extra* “agreement” that one was unaware of?

 Reductio ad absurdam ...

This is another argument, yes. Though, at this point, I suspect Sean
(or someone else with legal experience) will point out the common
fallacy of assuming the law operates logically :-)

-- 
 \“The errors of great men are venerable because they are more |
  `\ fruitful than the truths of little men.” —Friedrich Nietzsche |
_o__)  |
Ben Finney


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