Re: `free' in GNU and DSFG?

2012-06-08 Thread Hiroki Horiuchi
# debian-user is no longer in To:

After reading your words, I think that if talking *only* about non-free
GFDLed document problem, the difference between DFSG and Free Software
Definition does not matter.

Moreover, I think that if talking *generally*, DFSG and Free Software
Definition are not so different, and I am curious why DFSG had to be
invented.

Thank you.
--
Hiroki Horiuchi from Japan


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Re: `free' in GNU and DSFG?

2012-06-08 Thread Christofer C. Bell
On Fri, Jun 8, 2012 at 12:10 AM, Andrei POPESCU
andreimpope...@gmail.com wrote:
 On Vi, 08 iun 12, 10:58:48, Hiroki Horiuchi wrote:

 After reading your words, now I think The Free Software Definition is
 really permissive, but this very *permissiveness* made GNU's definition
 insufficient for Debian Project.

 Not in my opinion. Take the example of the GFDL: a document with
 invariant sections does not have freedom 3. AFAIR the FSF's stance is
 that documentation is not software.

 Debian's stance is that a truly free software also has free
 documentation[1] and the GPL can and should be used for that as well (or
 at least not use the restrictive options of the GFDL)[2][3]

Here's the relevent section directly from the GFDL[5]:


A Secondary Section is a named appendix or a front-matter section of
the Document that deals exclusively with the relationship of the
publishers or authors of the Document to the Document's overall
subject (or to related matters) and contains nothing that could fall
directly within that overall subject. (Thus, if the Document is in
part a textbook of mathematics, a Secondary Section may not explain
any mathematics.) The relationship could be a matter of historical
connection with the subject or with related matters, or of legal,
commercial, philosophical, ethical or political position regarding
them.

The Invariant Sections are certain Secondary Sections whose titles
are designated, as being those of Invariant Sections, in the notice
that says that the Document is released under this License. If a
section does not fit the above definition of Secondary then it is not
allowed to be designated as Invariant. The Document may contain zero
Invariant Sections. If the Document does not identify any Invariant
Sections then there are none.


[5] http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/fdl.html

Basically, only Secondary sections can be invariant and Secondary
sections can only outline the original author's connection to the
subject matter, it can't contain any subject matter text at all (such
inclusion is prohibited).  I cannot think of a case where someone
modifying the document would, when acting in a good faith manner, want
to alter this text.  Any alteration to this kind of text is,
essentially, putting words in the mouth of the author.  I do
understand the Debian position, but I feel it's a solution looking for
a problem.

That said, I think the biggest unintended side-effect of Debian's
position (and it's an ironic one) is that in this drive for purity,
users are now *encouraged* to enable contrib and non-free in order to
get access to documentation for their systems.  The original intent
was to bring cover Debian in an umbrella of purity with regards to
Freedom, and the result is to encourage users to reject the Freedom
offered through use of the main repository only in order to obtain
something as basic as system documentation.

Based on what is allowed in an invariant section, I can't see
modification of those sections being ethical.  I don't know, however,
if they can be removed entirely (it would be reasonable to remove them
if allowed, in my opinion).  The license does indicate that a GFDL
covered document might not contain any invariant sections -- would a
GFDL document that has no invariant sections be considered Free under
the current Debian guidelines?  Or does the use of the GFDL at all
automatically make the entire document non-free?

 [1] a complex software for which the only documentation is the source
 code is not very useful and there is no reason why the same liberties
 should not apply to documentation

Those liberties do apply to the documention, as the parts of a GFDL
document that actually document the software can never be declared
invariant.  That is forbidden by the license.  See the example from
the license itself: a textbook on mathematics cannot contain any
mathematics in a secondary section, and only secondary sections may be
invariant.

 [2] for an entity that preaches non-proliferation of licenses FSF has
 created quite a few...

They have 4 licenses, all of which seem to serve a unique and
necessary role:  GPL, LGPL, AGPL, and GFDL.

 [3] before anyone here wants to argue that the GPL is meant for software
 only they should read it[4]

Reading it or not, the author of the license has indicated that's his desire.

-- 
Chris


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Re: `free' in GNU and DSFG?

2012-06-08 Thread Simon McVittie
Please see the threads that led to
http://www.debian.org/vote/2006/vote_001 for exhaustive discussion
about the GFDL vs. the DFSG.

On 08/06/12 16:34, Christofer C. Bell wrote:
 I cannot think of a case where someone
 modifying the document would, when acting in a good faith manner, want
 to alter this text.

That would be fine if we (either Debian when redistributing the
document, or someone wanting to alter the document later) could delete
them - but clause 4L, and the first paragraph of section 5, forbid that.

 would a
 GFDL document that has no invariant sections be considered Free under
 the current Debian guidelines?

According to the General Resolution at
http://www.debian.org/vote/2006/vote_001, yes. The GNU Libtool manual
in libtool-doc is one example of a GFDL-with-no-invariant-sections
document in main.

(The GR was not unanimous - a significant number of Debian members would
have preferred for libtool-doc to be excluded from main too.)

 They have 4 licenses, all of which seem to serve a unique and
 necessary role:  GPL, LGPL, AGPL, and GFDL.

The major reason I never want to put anything I write under the GFDL is
that it has annoying practical consequences.

The AGPL, GPL and LGPL (of the same version) are copyleft licenses with
varying terms, but form a chain of compatible licenses in which you can
combine works under any pair of those licenses, and put the result under
the more restrictive license.

The GFDL and GPL are mutually-incompatible copyleft licenses (each
includes restrictions that the other does not), so you can't combine
parts of a GPL'd work with parts of a GFDL'd work, under any license,
unless you are the sole copyright holder on both. That's fine for GNU
(the sole copyright holder on GNU projects, via copyright assignment),
but an obstacle for the rest of the world.

S


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