Re: Public Domain for Germans
* Bernhard R. Link: * Florian Weimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] [081104 21:29]: Word on the street is that you can't effectively disclaim warranty while putting something in the public domain. Well, as we are discussing the German POV, as German you cannot disclaim warrenty effectively at all as far as I do understand it. Not for gross negligence, no, but for ordinary negligence (things like following established more-or-less software engineering practices, like not doing patent research or writing C code), it should be possible. Part of the reason for that there's a significant lobby which will prevent the application of ProdHG to software. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public Domain for Germans
Josselin Mouette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Le samedi 15 novembre 2008 à 14:25 +, MJ Ray a écrit : Also, I'm disappointed that WTFPLv2 is so long. [...] I'm no longer sure whether this is a joke. What made you think this was a joke to begin with? I don't know. I thought it might be funny to complain that the WTFPLv2 was too long and complicated... :-P -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/ Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public Domain for Germans
Cyril Brulebois [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: WTFPL (http://sam.zoy.org/wtfpl/) to the rescue? As I understand it, that also doesn't work for German residents because the recipient doesn't have to accept the lack of warranty. Expat-style seems safer to me. Also, I'm disappointed that WTFPLv2 is so long. Why do people need to care about Sam Hocevar's name, address and permission to change it? It seems obviously below the creative threshold for copyright... I'm no longer sure whether this is a joke. -- MJR/slef My Opinion Only: see http://people.debian.org/~mjr/ Please follow http://www.uk.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public Domain for Germans
Le samedi 15 novembre 2008 à 14:25 +, MJ Ray a écrit : Also, I'm disappointed that WTFPLv2 is so long. Why do people need to care about Sam Hocevar's name, address and permission to change it? It seems obviously below the creative threshold for copyright... I'm no longer sure whether this is a joke. What made you think this was a joke to begin with? -- .''`. : :' : We are debian.org. Lower your prices, surrender your code. `. `' We will add your hardware and software distinctiveness to `-our own. Resistance is futile. signature.asc Description: Ceci est une partie de message numériquement signée
Re: Public Domain for Germans
2008/11/3 Ben Finney [EMAIL PROTECTED]: [...] This also doesn't disclaim warranty, which might be dangerous for someone distributing programs. Is there actually any evidence (ie., court decision) to support this? Cheers, -- Jens Peter Secher. _DD6A 05B0 174E BFB2 D4D9 B52E 0EE5 978A FE63 E8A1 jpsecher gmail com_. A. Because it breaks the logical sequence of discussion. Q. Why is top posting bad? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public Domain for Germans
Joerg Jaspert [EMAIL PROTECTED] (05/11/2008): You can't make something PD in Germany, that just doesn't work with our laws. You should also NOT create new licenses / new words for things, that makes it just unneccessarily complex, for example if people want to bundle stuff together. Even if the intention is to give others full rights to do whatever they want to do with it. Use existing things, the world has more than enough of it. WTFPL (http://sam.zoy.org/wtfpl/) to the rescue? Mraw, KiBi. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Public Domain for Germans
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ben Finney [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Why have the free license as fallback? I advise you to simplify: Work *with* the fact that you've got copyright, and license the work accordingly. After all this seems to be the best, although I like the Idea to give up copyright. So do I. I encourage both of us to continue to agitate for a change in law in our nations and worldwide so that copyright is *not* the difficult-to-eradicate default. Just don't throw out the baby with the bathwater. Just as Europe doesn't have the concept of fair use, the US doesn't have the concept of moral rights. I know some people would hate to be associated with software they'd written (I didn't want my name in credits for some software I wrote, but that was largely because, imho, I was severely hampered in doing the job properly by management dictat), but the point of moral rights is to prevent *you* from removing *my* name from *my* work. In other words, it is the (imho reasonable) European way of preventing you from falsely passing off my work as yours. Much as you might disagree with HOW they've done it, you can't reasonably object to WHY they've done it. Cheers, Wol -- Anthony W. Youngman - [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public Domain for Germans
On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 4:15 PM, Florian Weimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't see anything wrong with authors not being able to give up their moral rights. Why do you think this needs fixing? Some people clearly want to be able to. The OP for example. -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public Domain for Germans
* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [081103 19:50]: Can I as a German use the following Public Domain-declaration-text, if I want the result to be dfsg-free? I, the creator of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible, I grant any entity the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law. I think this is unnecessary complex. If you are afraid of some problems by a court to interpret this, then in my huble opinion, you should be more frightened that you gave no terms in German than about some translation problems between the legal systems. I'm no layer, have not knowledge in that regard and have not asked anyone, but I fail to see what a I hereby place this work in the public domain. fails to do. Such a sentence makes it perfectly clear what you want to achieve. I should be legal in the US and I doubt a German court will tell someone they used the wrong magic words but interpret the intention. Hochachtungsvoll, Bernhard R. Link -- Never contain programs so few bugs, as when no debugging tools are available! Niklaus Wirth -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public Domain for Germans
but I fail to see what a
I hereby place this work in the public domain.
fails to do.
In Germany there is no possibility to waive copyright.
You neither can give it to somebody other nor to the public.
So this attention is possibly void, and it's unsure, what a random German court
would decide.
It's not clear that use is enough; it doesn't specify copy,
modify, or redistribute rights.
Would this be enough?
In case this is not legally possible,
I grant any entity any right, which would require permission of the
copyright-holder
including but not limited to use, copy, modify and redistribute this work for
any purpose,
without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.
or is a simple If it's not possible, I grant permission for everything enough?
If you have the option to decide on a license, it's probably far
simpler to *retain* copyright as per default, and grant the recipient
a do-just-about-anything license like the Expat license
Is there any problem with the by default Public Domain Declaration,
if there is a free licence as fallback?
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Re: Public Domain for Germans
* Paul Wise: On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 4:15 PM, Florian Weimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't see anything wrong with authors not being able to give up their moral rights. Why do you think this needs fixing? Some people clearly want to be able to. The OP for example. Why wouldn't it be sufficient not to exercise the moral rights? If providing comfort to downstream users is the priority, assigning copyright/exploitation rights to a well-established fiduciary might be the better option anyway. PS: What's wrong with using a Mail-Followup-To: header? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public Domain for Germans
* Florian Weimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] [081104 21:29]: Word on the street is that you can't effectively disclaim warranty while putting something in the public domain. Well, as we are discussing the German POV, as German you cannot disclaim warrenty effectively at all as far as I do understand it. (Or to do so would just be impractical). Hochachtungsvoll, Bernhard R. Link -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public Domain for Germans
* [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] [081104 21:09]: but I fail to see what a I hereby place this work in the public domain. fails to do. In Germany there is no possibility to waive copyright. You can give licenses. You cannot give up authorship. There is no direkt translation of the copyright of a work that includes all the aspects (as it is with most terms, not limited to legal ones. But I was also told by lawyers that there is also no full translation of contract either, as Vertrag is much less). So, given that it is an English text which already makes it either void or necessary to translate it, does anyone have any hint of any kind of anything that could make the above sentence of I hereby place this work in the public domain. could cause any German judge to be interpreted in any way but that you want to grant an non-exclusive license of everything possible to everyone? You neither can give it to somebody other nor to the public. You can give the right to copy to someone else. Works can get gemeinfrei. Everything wanted is possible in a simular way. So this attention is possibly void, and it's unsure, what a random German court would decide. I cannot imagine a court to claim that an action someone did willfully is void because they used the wrong magic words. (I may imagine a judge do so because someone did not know what they say because it was English, but if people are able to make grants they did void by using the wrong words, then lawyers would start using the wrong words like people cross their fingers behind their back). Hochachtungsvoll, Bernhard R. Link -- Never contain programs so few bugs, as when no debugging tools are available! Niklaus Wirth -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public Domain for Germans
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If you have the option to decide on a license, it's probably far simpler to *retain* copyright as per default, and grant the recipient a do-just-about-anything license like the Expat license Is there any problem with the by default Public Domain Declaration, if there is a free licence as fallback? I don't know of any “default Public Domain Declaration”. There are countless variations, with none of them being common enough IME to warrant “default”. Why have the free license as fallback? I advise you to simplify: Work *with* the fact that you've got copyright, and license the work accordingly. -- \ “If nature has made any one thing less susceptible than all | `\others of exclusive property, it is the action of the thinking | _o__) power called an idea” —Thomas Jefferson | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public Domain for Germans
Florian Weimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: * Ben Finney: It's not clear that “use” is enough; it doesn't specify copy, modify, or redistribute rights. This also doesn't disclaim warranty, which might be dangerous for someone distributing programs. Word on the street is that you can't effectively disclaim warranty while putting something in the public domain. References please? Do you contend that still holds true for works that are licensed without fee? -- \“To be yourself in a world that is constantly trying to make | `\you something else is the greatest accomplishment.” —Ralph | _o__)Waldo Emerson | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Header fields and followup address (was: Public Domain for Germans)
Florian Weimer [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: PS: What's wrong with using a Mail-Followup-To: header? (That's “header field”. Remember, folks: an email message has, as specified in RFC 2822, exactly *one* header, consisting of multiple fields.) I can see two reasons: It's non-standard. It is not one of the standard header fields, so its name should start with ‘X-’, and its implementation is user-defined in the absense of a standard. The poorly-written document proposing it URL:http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/98dec/I-D/draft-ietf-drums-mail-followup-to-00.txt failed to pass, and expired in 1998, so it's unlikely it will ever *be* standard. It's essentially obsolete, at least for the purpose of mailing lists, since RFC 2369 fields that allow the “reply to list” function are deployed in essentially every mailing list manager. Let's agitate to fix the “reply to list” functionality where we find it lacking (I'm looking at you, Thunderbird) before we agitate for non-standard field implementations. -- \ “A cynic is a man who knows the price of everything and the | `\ value of nothing.” —Oscar Wilde | _o__) | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public Domain for Germans
I don't know of any default Public Domain Declaration. There are
countless variations, with none of them being common enough IME to
warrant default.
_by_ default, not default.
Why have the free license as fallback?
I advise you to simplify: Work *with* the fact that you've got
copyright,
and license the work accordingly.
After all this seems to be the best,
although I like the Idea to give up copyright.
But if one at example looks at the CC0-legaltext[0],
and what contortions it has to do to deal with strange laws,
a simple and readable normal licence seems much more desirable.
[0]http://labs.creativecommons.org/licenses/zero/1.0/legalcode
Thanks for all for clarifying this issue.
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Re: Public Domain for Germans
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Why have the free license as fallback? I advise you to simplify: Work *with* the fact that you've got copyright, and license the work accordingly. After all this seems to be the best, although I like the Idea to give up copyright. So do I. I encourage both of us to continue to agitate for a change in law in our nations and worldwide so that copyright is *not* the difficult-to-eradicate default. -- \ “Pinky, are you pondering what I'm pondering?” “I think so, | `\Brain, but if we had a snowmobile, wouldn't it melt before | _o__) summer?” —_Pinky and The Brain_ | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public Domain for Germans
On 11558 March 1977, jfr fg wrote: Can I as a German use the following Public Domain-declaration-text, if I want the result to be dfsg-free? I, the creator of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible, I grant any entity the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law. You can't make something PD in Germany, that just doesn't work with our laws. You should also NOT create new licenses / new words for things, that makes it just unneccessarily complex, for example if people want to bundle stuff together. Even if the intention is to give others full rights to do whatever they want to do with it. Use existing things, the world has more than enough of it. The best way for you IMO would be to either use the BSD or MIT/X11 style license. It will effectively do the same (allow everybody to use the work for any purpose). -- bye, Joerg AM: Whats the best way to find out if your debian/copyright is correct? NM: Upload package into the NEW queue. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Public Domain for Germans
Can I as a German use the following Public Domain-declaration-text,
if I want the result to be dfsg-free?
I, the creator of this work,
hereby release it into the public domain.
This applies worldwide.
In case this is not legally possible,
I grant any entity the right to use this work for any purpose,
without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law.
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Re: Public Domain for Germans
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Can I as a German use the following Public Domain-declaration-text, if I want the result to be dfsg-free? I, the creator of this work, hereby release it into the public domain. This applies worldwide. In case this is not legally possible, I grant any entity the right to use this work for any purpose, without any conditions, unless such conditions are required by law. It's not clear that “use” is enough; it doesn't specify copy, modify, or redistribute rights. This also doesn't disclaim warranty, which might be dangerous for someone distributing programs. Past discussions in this forum have also revealed that copyright is now so insidious that divesting oneself of copyright seems to be almost impossible to perform in many jurisdictions, even with statements like the above. If you have the option to decide on a license, it's probably far simpler to *retain* copyright as per default, and grant the recipient a do-just-about-anything license like the Expat license URL:http://www.jclark.com/xml/copying.txt. -- \ “Are you pondering what I'm pondering?” “I think so, Brain, but | `\ pants with horizontal stripes make me look chubby.” —_Pinky and | _o__) The Brain_ | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public Domain for Germans
On Tue, Nov 4, 2008 at 7:24 AM, Ben Finney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Past discussions in this forum have also revealed that copyright is now so insidious that divesting oneself of copyright seems to be almost impossible to perform in many jurisdictions, even with statements like the above. The Creative Commons group is working towards CC0 - a public domain dedication with a twist of license grant for those jurisdictions where it isn't possible to waive copyright. Hopefully it will serve well until those jurisdictions are fixed. http://wiki.creativecommons.org/CC0 http://creativecommons.org/?s=CC0 -- bye, pabs http://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public Domain for Germans
* Paul Wise: The Creative Commons group is working towards CC0 - a public domain dedication with a twist of license grant for those jurisdictions where it isn't possible to waive copyright. Hopefully it will serve well until those jurisdictions are fixed. I don't see anything wrong with authors not being able to give up their moral rights. Why do you think this needs fixing? -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Public Domain for Germans
* jfr fg: Can I as a German use the following Public Domain-declaration-text, if I want the result to be dfsg-free? Yes, but the work won't be public domain after that. It's likely that it will be interpreted by the courts as granting non-exclusive exploitation rights to everyone. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact [EMAIL PROTECTED]
