Re: GPL flaw?

2003-11-06 Thread Brian T. Sniffen
Mark Schreiber [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

 I have a small quibble with the GPL on a point that seems that it
 could be improved, unless, of course, my interpreation is incorrect.
 The existing license seems to produce undesireable behavior in a
 particular (admittedly, unusual) case.

You are horribly confused.  I think you meant to send this to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]  However...

 Let us suppose that a company (Small Company) produces a software
 package (Smart Writer).  Small Company sells their software for years
 under a closed-source license.  Small Company hears about the value
 that GPL-licensing their software provides, and decides to GPL
 (v2)-license their software.  Small Company produces several releases
 of their Smart Writer.  They do not use any code contributions from
 the community.

Keep an eye on that last sentence: if they used no code contributions
from outside, the problem you mention below seems unlikely.
However...

 Smart Writer is a very good package, and large chunks of code from it
 are used in a stunning array of GPLed packages.  RMS himself includes
 ten thousand lines of code from Smart Writer in core code in his new
 package (Fast Lisp Interpreter), interweaving it throughout Fast List
 Interpreter's codebase.

 Small Company is then purchased by a much, much larger company
 (Macrosoft, Inc).  This includes all current intellectual property
 assets.  Macrosoft wishes to prevent others from using its new IP
 freely in GPLed software.  It goes back, and discovers that one of
 Small Company's developers included (in a version of Smart Writer
 predating GPL release) twenty lines of code from a software package
 that Small Company did not have a license to, and is not available
 under a GPL-compatible license.  Nobody in the GPL community has used
 these twenty lines of code in their software.

It's questionable whether anybody can copyright twenty lines of
typical code.  Sure, there are 20-line snippets that have creative
work, but that does seem a bit unlikely in a
tens-of-thousands-of-lines work.  However...

 Normally, this is not a problem -- a company may remove offending code
 and do a re-release.  However, Small Company no longer controls Smart
 Writer.  Macrosoft is in charge.

You are confused about several points.  Here's the first one: Small
Company gave a license to use its copyrighted works to those who
received copies of Smart Writer (GPL Edition).  If it couldn't have
granted a license to use part of that package, that's fine: the
license to the rest persists.  So RMS and the users and distributors
of FLI are not affected by this.

 Macrosoft asserts that because Small Company did not have ownership of
 the full Smart Writer codebase, Clause 7 of the GPL applies
 (prohibiting distribution under the GPL unless such distribution may
 be done legally) to all releases of Smart Writer that Small Company
 attempted to perform.  Macrosoft thus claims that the Smart Writer
 releases were never legally released under the GPL.

Macrosoft needs better lawyers: clause 7 does not apply to Small
Company, because they are the original authors.  They don't *need* a
license to distribute or modify Smart Writer, because they hold the
copyright.

 RMS asks Macrosoft to re-release a Smart Writer release with the
 offending twenty lines of code removed.  Macrosoft refuses, and says
 that the GPL-using community must instead remove all instances of
 Smart Writer code from all GPL software, or it will sue for copyright
 infringement.  In the meantime, the GPL-using community must cease
 distribution of all software using Smart Writer code.

This sounds a lot like SCO's recent nonsense; perhaps they confused
you.  Either way, this scenario is not plausible.

 Even more disturbing, let us assume that RMS passes away from computer
 monitor radition before he can finish excising the ten thousand lines
 of Smart Writer code from his Fast Lisp Interpreter package.  Since he
 owns the Fast List Interpreter copyright, and has never done a legal
 release of Fast List Interpreter, this package has never been GPLed.
 His heirs refuse to GPL-license the Fast List Interpreter package.
 Thus, Fast Lisp Interpreter is not GPLed.

Not quite: RMS had a license from Small Company to modify and
distribute all the code he used for FLI, so it's available to anyone
who has a copy under the GPL.

 In the GPL v2, clause 6 states:

 Each time you redistribute the Program (or any work based on the
 Program), the recipient automatically receives a license from the
 original licensor to copy, distribute or modify the Program subject to
 these terms and conditions.

 Perhaps clause 6 should specifically state that license(s) are granted
 to all portions of a Program released under the GPL.  This would mean
 that even if the case of the GPL license applying to the Program being
 shown to be invalid, any GPLable portion of the Program is still
 available to anyone using source from that Program.  This way, if
 someone in 

Re: GPL flaw?

2003-11-06 Thread Mahesh T. Pai
Mark Schreiber said on Thu, Nov 06, 2003 at 12:15:33PM -0500,:

Hmm ... You sound a lot like the clueless lawyers for SCO.

  His heirs refuse to  GPL-license the Fast List Interpreter package.
  Thus, Fast Lisp Interpreter is not GPLed.

Not a problem.  If RMS released  it under the GPL license. Anybody who
received FLI from  RMS has a perpetual right under  the GPL.  OTOH, if
RMS never releast  FLI during his life time, what  exactly is the loss
to the community??

  Perhaps  clause 6  should  specifically state  that license(s)  are
  granted to all portions of  a Program released under the GPL.  This
  would mean

Well, this will not help you in this case  where the claim is that
because  portion X  which did  not belong  to us  was released  by us,
though the  entire was under the  GPL, now, we revoke  your license to
the whole. (That is what the SCO is saying, is it not??)

Well, in law, if *you* gave  me the whole, which contained parts which
did not  belong to you, (or  you did not  have rights to give  that to
me), *you* should (1) compensate me  for whatever loss I suffer (2) If
the tainted part is 'severable' from  the whole, I can continue, at MY
option, to use the remaining. 

(1) is not  likely to  be enforced where  the transfer is  for gratis,
except in very rare circumstances. Both (1) and (2) are *not* parts of
the law of copyright; rather,  they derive from other branches of law,
like contracts.

   Perhaps I've misinterpreted the GPL, 

Yes. And as SCO v. IBM shows, you are not the only one to do that.


-- 
+~+
  
  Mahesh T. Pai, LL.M.,   
  'NANDINI', S. R. M. Road,   
  Ernakulam, Cochin-682018,   
  Kerala, India.  
  
  http://in.geocities.com/paivakil 
  
+~+



Re: GPL flaw?

2003-11-06 Thread Don Armstrong
On Thu, 06 Nov 2003, Brian T. Sniffen wrote:
 Mark Schreiber [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Normally, this is not a problem -- a company may remove offending
 code and do a re-release.  However, Small Company no longer controls
 Smart Writer.  Macrosoft is in charge.
 
 You are confused about several points.  Here's the first one: Small
 Company gave a license to use its copyrighted works to those who
 received copies of Smart Writer (GPL Edition).  If it couldn't have
 granted a license to use part of that package, that's fine: the
 license to the rest persists.  So RMS and the users and distributors
 of FLI are not affected by this.

Estoppel even further restricts the ability of Macrosoft to prevail
against individuals who were using Smart Writer code. [I would imagine
that this would lead to the GPL being applied in effect to all of
the code it could possibly be applied to. Unfortunatly (or
fortunatly?) there is no case law that I am aware of applying to this
issue.]


Don Armstrong

-- 
You could say she lived on the edge... Well, maybe not exactly on the edge,
just close enough to watch other people fall off.
  -- hugh macleod http://www.gapingvoid.com/batch8.htm

http://www.donarmstrong.com
http://www.anylevel.com
http://rzlab.ucr.edu


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