Re: Some questions about trademark, copyright and dfsg
2) As a way to get funding and money. If a commercial company wants to support an open source project by becoming sponsor and include their logo in the software (for instance in an about menu or in the map of a game). Their logo and name are obviously trademarked and copyrighted. If I include this logo will my project be considered as dfsg friendly ? Considering the whole package except the logo and sponsors part are open and free for modifications. There is no way a company will openly allow their logo to be modified. In fact even debian protect its own logo. https://www.debian.org/trademark Does that mean open source and free software project can't include sponsor logo and company name ? There's no problem in including the company name. Including the sponsor logo would make the application slightly unfree. Also note that some logos are so simple there's no copyright on them. 3) if a debian packager modify my software for any reason. Will they warn me about modifications ? Will they change the name to avoid any confusion between my original project and the fork made by debian ? Will they remove sponsor logo for instance without warning us ? The main reason for removing a logo would precisely be in order to allow it into Debian. The name could be changed, although IMHO it's not a reason strong enough for requiring that. Regards PS: I think you are looking at these things from the wrong perspective,. but it's good you asked. -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/54e59c87.8080...@gmail.com
Re: Some questions about trademark, copyright and dfsg
On Thu, Feb 19, 2015 at 3:22 PM, Sam wrote: 1) If I have an free software/open source project and I register its logo and name as a trademark. It seems legit for several reasons - I want to promote and protect my brand. If someone modify the code it's fine but he or she should change the name of the project to avoid any confusion between the original project and fork (this doesn't seems contrary to open source software since it's the code which is open and available for everyone) Debian accepts such works, but this is a compromise (see item 4 of the DFSG). https://www.debian.org/social_contract#guidelines - can for instance debian distribute a modified version of my software with the original name ? It seems like a lie to me since your potential modifications might introduce bugs and issues I'm not responsible for. It gives to my project a bad picture. What's done to prevent this ? Require all redistributors to rename your software to something else. This means that every distro will probably name your software differently, while applying no modifications to the source code, or perhaps minimal modifications. - imagine if someone modify debian and introduce bugs and doesn't change the name. It's your project that will have a bad reputation. It's not just a theoretical case but it happened in one of the project where I contribute. This happens with Mozilla Firefox quite often and the modifications to it are often malicious. With Debian re-distributors and derivatives that doesn't appear to happen often if at all. I think how people treat your trademarks depends on what kind of project you are. 2) As a way to get funding and money. If a commercial company wants to support an open source project by becoming sponsor and include their logo in the software (for instance in an about menu or in the map of a game). Their logo and name are obviously trademarked and copyrighted. If I include this logo will my project be considered as dfsg friendly ? Considering the whole package except the logo and sponsors part are open and free for modifications. The logos will usually not be DFSG-free so we will have to strip them out. There is no way a company will openly allow their logo to be modified. In fact even debian protect its own logo. The main Debian logo is licensed under a FLOSS license. We do have a separate logo for our own use but it basically never gets used. https://www.debian.org/logos/ Does that mean open source and free software project can't include sponsor logo and company name ? Logos will probably need to be removed, sponsor information is fine. 3) if a debian packager modify my software for any reason. Will they warn me about modifications ? Will they change the name to avoid any confusion between my original project and the fork made by debian ? Will they remove sponsor logo for instance without warning us ? The Debian Social Contract encourages contributors to work constructively with upstream developers to get modifications included. https://www.debian.org/social_contract In most cases that will happen. If the license requires it, we will rename our copy of your software, generally we do not do that because it is time that could be better spent on other things. Logos will be removed if they are under non-free licenses, probably sponsor information would not be removed. Personally I would encourage upstream developers to only put sponsorship information on their websites and not in their software, except maybe in the README file. I would encourage you to read the Debian trademark policy and the CollabMark website and adopt something similar for your software if you do intend to trademark it. https://www.debian.org/trademark http://collabmark.org/ https://lwn.net/Articles/626426/ -- bye, pabs https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to debian-legal-requ...@lists.debian.org with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact listmas...@lists.debian.org Archive: https://lists.debian.org/CAKTje6H28=O2_od1=vgs5fndjpszj4ynxa65zru+yle_g5-...@mail.gmail.com
Re: Some questions about trademark, copyright and dfsg
samuncl...@gmail.com samuncl...@gmail.com writes: I'm a free software developer and I have several questions about dfsg, trademarks and copyright. Thank you for seriously considering the freedom of recipients of your software. 1) If I have an free software/open source project and I register its logo and name as a trademark. It seems legit for several reasons Yes, trademark law has a legitimate motivation: consumer protection from confusion and deceit. The problem, of how to reconcile those needs with the needs of freedom in the work, is a thorny one that continues to be explored. It is also important to remember that the permissions must also be granted automatically to every recipient of Debian, for them to exercise to the same extent. So it's not only the Debian Project's actions and freedoms you need to consider. A useful point of reference is the Debian Project's policy for the Debian trademark URL:https://www.debian.org/trademark, which is the product of a lot of discussion of these issues. - I want to promote and protect my brand. That's not something you can expect recipients of your work (such as the Debian project, or Debian recipients) to have incentive to do. It's also not, IMO, a legitimate purpose of trademark restrictions. A more legitimate purpose is what you describe next: If someone modify the code it's fine but he or she should change the name of the project to avoid any confusion between the original project and fork To the extent that the restriction is in the interest of preventing confusion in the mind of the recipient, yes. But the interest of “promote and protect my brand” is not the same thing, and in some cases it can conflict with software freedom. In which case, IMO, software freedom should win such conflict. - can for instance debian distribute a modified version of my software with the original name ? That's a difficult area, yes. The motivation to prevent confusion in the mind of the consumer might conflict with the freedom to redistribute the work with or without modifications. Both are legitimate motivations. For the Debian trademark, the Debian Project's solution is to define which uses of the mark are permitted and which are not. The overriding principle is that use of the trademark to imply claims that are false or misleadinf, is not permitted; other uses are permitted. - imagine if someone modify debian and introduce bugs and doesn't change the name. It's your project that will have a bad reputation. This is a matter of education; you can't rely on a trademark alone to inform people what is and is not your product. The policy on the Debian trademark does not prevent any recipient from making modifications and redistributing the result with the name “Debian”. I think it's clear the Debian Project does not suffer unduly as a result. 2) As a way to get funding and money. It's fine for you to have this motivation. But no recipient (whether the Debian Project or any recipient of Debian) can be expected to share or work toward that motivation. So, I don't think this is a legitimate justification for any restriction in the trademark license. Their logo and name are obviously trademarked and copyrighted. Yes, a digital version of a trademark is software, and thereby is subject to copyright. The work can only be in Debian if the work has a copyright license whose conditions meed the DFSG. If the copyright license, or trademark license or any other relevant set of permissions and restrictions, does not meet the DFSG, one solution is that the trademark is removed before entering Debian. A better solution is that the conditions are improved so they do meet the DFSG. There is no way a company will openly allow their logo to be modified. In fact even debian protect its own logo. The question at issue is whether the restrictions still meet the DFSG. 3) if a debian packager modify my software for any reason. Will they warn me about modifications ? Will they change the name to avoid any confusion between my original project and the fork made by debian ? Will they remove sponsor logo for instance without warning us ? There's no guarantee we can give of “warning” you, whatever that might mean. Part of the requirements are that we need all permissions to act be included in the license in the work; we cannot be held back by needing to communicate with a party who might have changed their mind or be out of contact. As for modifications, we do require that distribution of modified works can be done, with unilateral permission granted by the licenses in the work. I hope my questions aren't already answered. I hope this answers your questions, and sets out where the issues lie. -- \ “The best way to get information on Usenet is not to ask a | `\ question, but to post the wrong information.” —Aahz | _o__) | Ben Finney -- To UNSUBSCRIBE, email
Re: Some questions about trademark, copyright and dfsg
On Thu, 19 Feb 2015 08:22:34 +0100 samuncl...@gmail.com samuncl...@gmail.com wrote: Hi everyone I'm a free software developer and I have several questions about dfsg, trademarks and copyright. 1) If I have an free software/open source project and I register its logo and name as a trademark. It seems legit for several reasons - I want to promote and protect my brand. If someone modify the code it's fine but he or she should change the name of the project to avoid any confusion between the original project and fork (this doesn't seems contrary to open source software since it's the code which is open and available for everyone) - can for instance debian distribute a modified version of my software with the original name ? It seems like a lie to me since your potential modifications might introduce bugs and issues I'm not responsible for. It gives to my project a bad picture. What's done to prevent this ? Well, if you don't want Debian to do this, then Debian will rename the package. If you include scripts for renaming, this would be good, because it makes it more likely that people outside Debian will actually follow your trademark rules. - imagine if someone modify debian and introduce bugs and doesn't change the name. It's your project that will have a bad reputation. It's not just a theoretical case but it happened in one of the project where I contribute. Just curious, which project? 2) As a way to get funding and money. If a commercial company wants to support an open source project by becoming sponsor and include their logo in the software (for instance in an about menu or in the map of a game). Their logo and name are obviously trademarked and copyrighted. If I include this logo will my project be considered as dfsg friendly ? Considering the whole package except the logo and sponsors part are open and free for modifications. There is no way a company will openly allow their logo to be modified. In fact even debian protect its own logo. https://www.debian.org/trademark Does that mean open source and free software project can't include sponsor logo and company name ? The Debian logo is freely licensed: https://www.debian.org/logos/index.en.html There's a difference between granting copyright permission and granting trademark permission. Perhaps your sponsor could look into this idea? If your sponsor's logo can't be modified, then it can't be in main. Generally, however, the packager will just decide to remove the logo if it doesn't have a free license. It's kind of a difficult topic, so you might want to see the discussion aroung the Bing logo being included in josm: https://lists.debian.org/debian-gis/2014/10/threads.html#00117 3) if a debian packager modify my software for any reason. Will they warn me about modifications ? Will they change the name to avoid any confusion between my original project and the fork made by debian ? Will they remove sponsor logo for instance without warning us ? It is common courtesy to inform upstream of changes, and Debian endeavours to do so, but you can't include a condition like that in your license. Also, Debian will not *warn* you before modifications. Otherwise, how would security fixes be rolled out? Yes, Debian will change the name if your trademark conditions require it, but if it is difficult, there might not be anyone willing to package your software at all. If the logo isn't free, then it will be removed. If your sponsor would be uncomfortable with freely licensing their logo, how about writing a freely licensed text endorsement? Finally, some notes: -People on debian-legal do not have the power to change the DFSG. Such a change would require a constitutional amendment. -You can still get a package into non-free even if it doesn't meet the DFSG -Good luck with your project Riley Baird pgp8nTV3L_fC3.pgp Description: PGP signature
Some questions about trademark, copyright and dfsg
Hi everyone I'm a free software developer and I have several questions about dfsg, trademarks and copyright. 1) If I have an free software/open source project and I register its logo and name as a trademark. It seems legit for several reasons - I want to promote and protect my brand. If someone modify the code it's fine but he or she should change the name of the project to avoid any confusion between the original project and fork (this doesn't seems contrary to open source software since it's the code which is open and available for everyone) - can for instance debian distribute a modified version of my software with the original name ? It seems like a lie to me since your potential modifications might introduce bugs and issues I'm not responsible for. It gives to my project a bad picture. What's done to prevent this ? - imagine if someone modify debian and introduce bugs and doesn't change the name. It's your project that will have a bad reputation. It's not just a theoretical case but it happened in one of the project where I contribute. 2) As a way to get funding and money. If a commercial company wants to support an open source project by becoming sponsor and include their logo in the software (for instance in an about menu or in the map of a game). Their logo and name are obviously trademarked and copyrighted. If I include this logo will my project be considered as dfsg friendly ? Considering the whole package except the logo and sponsors part are open and free for modifications. There is no way a company will openly allow their logo to be modified. In fact even debian protect its own logo. https://www.debian.org/trademark Does that mean open source and free software project can't include sponsor logo and company name ? 3) if a debian packager modify my software for any reason. Will they warn me about modifications ? Will they change the name to avoid any confusion between my original project and the fork made by debian ? Will they remove sponsor logo for instance without warning us ? I hope my questions aren't already answered. Thanks for your answer Kind regards Sam
