Bug#973333: lintian.d.o: please add a symlink/redirect to the most recent version
Hi Pierre-Elliott, On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 2:59 PM Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > > The infrastructure is just a > machine and I don't see how it could perform poorly except if it lacks > physical resources. That is a misperception. I cannot comment in detail due to allegiance and gratitude to all the people (and especially past maintainers) who devoted time and resources to Lintian over 22 years. Please let me just say that Lintian's pieces no longer worked well together. The software was the issue. The solution required an upgrade in hardware infrastructure, which DSA would not discuss without a working prototype. As far as I am concerned, I am merely implementing ideas other maintainers would have tried with more time. The idea of a PostgreSQL database, for example (which possibly prompted your reaction to this bug) was not new and predated my arrival. [1] Like everyone else, I simply have Lintian for a little while and hope to leave it, one day, in better shape than when it found me. One cannot spend so much time with a single piece of software without being profoundly in love with its mission and total belief in the value it provides for fellow maintainers. That being said, Lintian users hail from all parts of the Debian universe. As you probably appreciate from your work on the community team, not all interactions are positive. I usually do not work on Lintian for a few days afterwards. I am sorry to count our correspondence today among those experiences. [1] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=776658#40 > I'll be blunt, but you should really review the way you interact with > people if you see manipulation or aggression in a question raised along > with concerns. As I see it, your reaction is as much inappropriate as > you claim my message is. Obviously, we both perceive the other as passive-aggressive. The burden of proof, however, rests with you. You wrote to me without solicitation. Without going in circles, it's best to agree to disagree here. > When someone comes and say "It feels to me that you could have the > intent to move the *production* lintian site out of Debian's machines.", > which is voluntarily written as hypotheticall, it means that one wonders > if it is your intention, and, indeed, to avoid accusation, it is turned > as an hypothesis. You explained to me what you thought my intentions were. I did the same for you. > Feeling attacked by someone asking if you intend to do something and if > so, that they think it could be a bad idea is something that prompts me > to tell you, as you do downwards, /please get some rest/. As a strictly religious person, I will, Thanks! > And it's easy to say why and how someone could see "moving part of an > infra outside Debian" as a bug. I'm fine with asking it here, but if you > feel like there'd be a better place, please do tell and I'll be glad to > forward our discussion there. No thanks. I think there is too much discussion at Debian already. > You seem (to me) reluctant to engage with criticism in that very case: I > came with a simple question and you actually jumped at me, telling that > I was forcing you to do something and intimidating you. That is not fine > at all. My perception is a product of the interaction between both of us. It is presumptive and biased to blame my side entirely for the effects of your communication. > Furthermore, I did not tell that any of your contributions to Lintian > were bad, but I do tell that if you were willing to have, on the long > run, the *production* lintian website hosted outside of the Debian > infrastructure, then I think it would be a bad decision. I agree with you and hope that insight will motivate DSA to engage in a positive and constructive way. > Feel free to ignore me then, but I'm pretty convinced this discussion is > useful, as I'm clearly trying to understand your thoughts and vision for > lintian (the tool and the website), which are not written anywhere I > could find (maybe I did missearch). I am definitely not ignoring you. > Yes I did. Assuming one's intentions is not being coercitive, and having > that person implying that I am trying to coerce them is their own > interpretation, and scary, because nothing in my message could imply > that I want to force you doing anything. I just searched the text in this bug to make sure: I did not allege that you coerced anyone. You wrote that. I said you are "projecting", which also happened here. You again claimed I did something that, in reality, you did. As you saw in the rest of our correspondence, it makes arguments circular. The rhetorical question about an offer I could not refuse was a movie quote. > It's your interpretation, and it is completely wrong. And "lintian is > linked to core elements and should stay in Debian's infrastructure" is a > technical point. You just picked this up out of the blue? Or are other people complaining behind you? > This bug is about the website, which is not
Bug#973333: lintian.d.o: please add a symlink/redirect to the most recent version
Hi Felix, Le vendredi 06 novembre 2020 à 14:01:22-0800, Felix Lechner a écrit : > Hi Pierre-Elliott, > > On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 5:20 AM Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > > > > A technical project consisting of people who may have opinions, even > > some based on non-very-technical aspects. > > There are no "non-technical" aspects in my effort to provide the best > possible service, aside from being a nice person, despite your > tendency to insert them. This is a bug report. In my opinion (and I failed to find any Debian resource telling otherwise), a bug report does not necessarily have to stick to technical aspects, and is a perfectly valid place to raise such questions. I thought it'd be better than redirecting this matter on debian-devel or other without prior discussion, especially to avoid involving a load of people which would indeed have been aggressive. > > Because I made an assumption on your intents and tried to tell you > > something you don't want to hear, which is that it should stay in Debian > > infra? > > The solution provided on the current Debian infrastructure has > performed poorly for a long time (and well before my arrival). The lintian.debian.org website, probably. The infrastructure is just a machine and I don't see how it could perform poorly except if it lacks physical resources. > There is nothing untoward about my intentions. The prominence of your > suspicions in your reasoning cannot change it. You are either being > manipulative, or you are trying to provoke a reaction. Either way, > your accusations have no basis. I'll be blunt, but you should really review the way you interact with people if you see manipulation or aggression in a question raised along with concerns. As I see it, your reaction is as much inappropriate as you claim my message is. When someone comes and say "It feels to me that you could have the intent to move the *production* lintian site out of Debian's machines.", which is voluntarily written as hypotheticall, it means that one wonders if it is your intention, and, indeed, to avoid accusation, it is turned as an hypothesis. Feeling attacked by someone asking if you intend to do something and if so, that they think it could be a bad idea is something that prompts me to tell you, as you do downwards, /please get some rest/. > > > Come on, you should accept the idea that other people has > > different opinions than yours and have a right to state these. The > > "it's not technical" argument is not a valid answer. > > Again, this is a bug report. Please be your own judge. And it's easy to say why and how someone could see "moving part of an infra outside Debian" as a bug. I'm fine with asking it here, but if you feel like there'd be a better place, please do tell and I'll be glad to forward our discussion there. > > The fact that you are working on a > > project does not mean others can't express concerns and raise their > > voice if they think the decisions you seem to be willing to take are > > bad. > > Please explain which of my contributions to Lintian are "bad". I > regularly reverse changes that did not deliver the expected benefits. > Many of Lintian's bug reports are also about changes I made that did > not work. To the best of my ability, I respond timely. I challenge you > to prove otherwise. Your suggestion that I am reluctant to engage with > criticism is unsupported and faise. You seem (to me) reluctant to engage with criticism in that very case: I came with a simple question and you actually jumped at me, telling that I was forcing you to do something and intimidating you. That is not fine at all. Furthermore, I did not tell that any of your contributions to Lintian were bad, but I do tell that if you were willing to have, on the long run, the *production* lintian website hosted outside of the Debian infrastructure, then I think it would be a bad decision. I may be wrong, but that is what I think. > My point is further bolstered by this letter. Its writing consumed > valuable time and kept me from contributing in other and probably more > productive ways. Feel free to ignore me then, but I'm pretty convinced this discussion is useful, as I'm clearly trying to understand your thoughts and vision for lintian (the tool and the website), which are not written anywhere I could find (maybe I did missearch). > > I'm not coercing you and the way you represent it is your sole > > interpretation, which is a bit scary. > > You yourself wrote that you made assumptions about my intentions. Yes I did. Assuming one's intentions is not being coercitive, and having that person implying that I am trying to coerce them is their own interpretation, and scary, because nothing in my message could imply that I want to force you doing anything. And as I don't, I'd rather you to avoid telling that. > (You offer no details, but they are presumably unbecoming.) Plus, you > raise no technical points. Like it or not, the effect of your messages > is
Bug#973333: lintian.d.o: please add a symlink/redirect to the most recent version
Hi Pierre-Elliott, On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 5:20 AM Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > > A technical project consisting of people who may have opinions, even > some based on non-very-technical aspects. There are no "non-technical" aspects in my effort to provide the best possible service, aside from being a nice person, despite your tendency to insert them. This is a bug report. > Because I made an assumption on your intents and tried to tell you > something you don't want to hear, which is that it should stay in Debian > infra? The solution provided on the current Debian infrastructure has performed poorly for a long time (and well before my arrival). There is nothing untoward about my intentions. The prominence of your suspicions in your reasoning cannot change it. You are either being manipulative, or you are trying to provoke a reaction. Either way, your accusations have no basis. > Come on, you should accept the idea that other people has > different opinions than yours and have a right to state these. The > "it's not technical" argument is not a valid answer. Again, this is a bug report. Please be your own judge. > The fact that you are working on a > project does not mean others can't express concerns and raise their > voice if they think the decisions you seem to be willing to take are > bad. Please explain which of my contributions to Lintian are "bad". I regularly reverse changes that did not deliver the expected benefits. Many of Lintian's bug reports are also about changes I made that did not work. To the best of my ability, I respond timely. I challenge you to prove otherwise. Your suggestion that I am reluctant to engage with criticism is unsupported and faise. My point is further bolstered by this letter. Its writing consumed valuable time and kept me from contributing in other and probably more productive ways. > I'm not coercing you and the way you represent it is your sole > interpretation, which is a bit scary. You yourself wrote that you made assumptions about my intentions. (You offer no details, but they are presumably unbecoming.) Plus, you raise no technical points. Like it or not, the effect of your messages is to malign and intimidate. > I don't have to mention technical concerns to have a right to feel > ill-at-ease with the idea of seeing lintian.debian.org disappear in > favour of an externally hosted service. But actually, "it's > Debian-centric and used by core components, so it's better having it > in our infrastructure" also is a technical concern. I agree with you. Unfortunately, the infrastructure provided by DSA is presently insufficient for the service people expect. (Just look at this bug.) Your point is therefore hypothetical. Eventually, I plan to approach DSA with a wishlist for deployment on Debian hardware. As I stated previously, I am not ready because I am still experimenting. > This is what I call a test version. What an odd point to make! In my first response to this bug, I called it an experiment. The words mean the same thing. > DSA delivers machines, what you do of these is your call. See > nm.debian.org, which is auto-deployed when we release on master et al. Thank you for your thoughtful reference. I previously watched Enrico's talk [1] with great interest and also multiple times. Unfortunately, the mechanism does not cover the automatic installation of runtime prerequisites and is probably not helpful for Lintian (although it may be for the website). Please also keep in mind that the Lintian maintainers try to produce data for lintian.d.o with released versions (for easier comparison with the BTS). Upon reflection, Debian's packaging system is ideally suited to solve those issues. [1] https://debconf18.debconf.org/talks/71-autodeploy-from-salsa/ > Surely, that excludes tracker.debian.org, wiki.debian.org, > nm.debian.org, ddpo.debian.org, udd.debian.org, … All I can say is, it was the response I got. > I can't see how and why DSA would forbid you to have a new website set > in production on lintian.debian.org, and if they do, that's probably > something worth a discussion on debian-devel to have things explained > and understood, don't you think? At this point, I do not think such a broad call for assistance is necessary. It also would not be helpful for my negotiations. My counterparties at DSA will assume that I tried to sidestep them. It embarrasses them and violates their trust. It is an awful way to beg for understanding and compromise. I hope you understand. DSA will eventually have to engage in a conversation when I present a viable alternative. (If not, I will ask for your help.) For the time being, I am developing both websites in parallel. Most of my work has gone to the static one. The dynamic website is not even up yet. > Just because you feel hurt by the fact someone tries to tell you you > should reconsider an idea doesn't mean their opinion or suggestion is > moot. I'm sorry if you're feeling hurt, but I stand my
Bug#973333: lintian.d.o: please add a symlink/redirect to the most recent version
Le vendredi 06 novembre 2020 à 04:22:15-0800, Felix Lechner a écrit : > Hi Pierre-Elliott, > > On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 2:40 AM Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > > > > I could not help but have a concern reading your reply. It feels to me > > that you could have the intent to move the *production* lintian site out > > of Debian's machines. Of course I could understand that a *test* version > > of lintian.debian.org would be hosted somewhere else. But I (and I'm > > probably not alone) would have a really hard time understanding or > > accepting that the production version moved outside of debian.org and on > > a non-controlled Debian machine. > > > > Lintian is debian-centric, and its checks have influence on many parts > > of the infra. To me it needs to stay in Debian for the production part. > > > > I hope you understand that. > > I do not. > > Like so many communications in Debian recently, I actually find your > tone inappropriate for a technical project. A technical project consisting of people who may have opinions, even some based on non-very-technical aspects. > What is the purpose of your message? Do you hope to guilt-trip me into > using DSA infrastructure? Had we not had friendly interactions in the > past, I might think your note came out of a mafia movie. Because I made an assumption on your intents and tried to tell you something you don't want to hear, which is that it should stay in Debian infra? Come on, you should accept the idea that other people has different opinions than yours and have a right to state these. The "it's not technical" argument is not a valid answer. > Perhaps you are making me a proposal I cannot refuse? I'm stating my opinion, and you'll have to deal with the fact that many people in the project do that. The fact that you are working on a project does not mean others can't express concerns and raise their voice if they think the decisions you seem to be willing to take are bad. I'm not coercing you and the way you represent it is your sole interpretation, which is a bit scary. > My planned improvements are driven solely by technical concerns. (Your > message mentions none.) I don't have to mention technical concerns to have a right to feel ill-at-ease with the idea of seeing lintian.debian.org disappear in favour of an externally hosted service. But actually, "it's Debian-centric and used by core components, so it's better having it in our infrastructure" also is a technical concern. > I am still working on the new website and am not really ready to > explain my proposed changes. This is what I call a test version. > For now, it should be sufficient to say that DSA is unable to deliver > on several key aspects of my envisioned changes. For example, DSA is > unable to automatically install newly released versions of Lintian, or > its prerequisites. DSA delivers machines, what you do of these is your call. See nm.debian.org, which is auto-deployed when we release on master et al. > That alone led to a string of extraordinarily frequent, error-prone > and entirely unnecessary interactions on rt.debian.org. A prominent > DSA member's response: "It's easier that way, for you and for us." At > some point, DSA also told me I made changes to their systems too > frequently. Nice solution! > > At some point, I tried to share my vision of a real-time system that > can browse tags online. The response: "There is a trend toward static > pages at Debian." Surely, that excludes tracker.debian.org, wiki.debian.org, nm.debian.org, ddpo.debian.org, udd.debian.org, … > As far as I can tell, DSA and I live on two > different planets—which, to be fair, is not an unusual feeling from my > perspective in California's Silicon Valley. I can't see how and why DSA would forbid you to have a new website set in production on lintian.debian.org, and if they do, that's probably something worth a discussion on debian-devel to have things explained and understood, don't you think? > In any event, I do not control the domain lintian.d.o, so whatever I > am working on will remain a test version unless people decide it works > better. That should be the goal. I do not understand how your message > did anything to make Lintian, or Debian, better. Just because you feel hurt by the fact someone tries to tell you you should reconsider an idea doesn't mean their opinion or suggestion is moot. I'm sorry if you're feeling hurt, but I stand my point. As soon as your new site is working, I'd rather try to have it set in prod on lintian.debian.org than making central elements point to an external component. And I'd be happy to help and support you that way. That'd at least allow others to take care of it if one day you feel tired of the project, without having to restart everything from scratch. -- Pierre-Elliott Bécue GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528 F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2 It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Bug#973333: lintian.d.o: please add a symlink/redirect to the most recent version
Hi Pierre-Elliott, On Fri, Nov 6, 2020 at 2:40 AM Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote: > > I could not help but have a concern reading your reply. It feels to me > that you could have the intent to move the *production* lintian site out > of Debian's machines. Of course I could understand that a *test* version > of lintian.debian.org would be hosted somewhere else. But I (and I'm > probably not alone) would have a really hard time understanding or > accepting that the production version moved outside of debian.org and on > a non-controlled Debian machine. > > Lintian is debian-centric, and its checks have influence on many parts > of the infra. To me it needs to stay in Debian for the production part. > > I hope you understand that. I do not. Like so many communications in Debian recently, I actually find your tone inappropriate for a technical project. What is the purpose of your message? Do you hope to guilt-trip me into using DSA infrastructure? Had we not had friendly interactions in the past, I might think your note came out of a mafia movie. Perhaps you are making me a proposal I cannot refuse? My planned improvements are driven solely by technical concerns. (Your message mentions none.) I am still working on the new website and am not really ready to explain my proposed changes. For now, it should be sufficient to say that DSA is unable to deliver on several key aspects of my envisioned changes. For example, DSA is unable to automatically install newly released versions of Lintian, or its prerequisites. That alone led to a string of extraordinarily frequent, error-prone and entirely unnecessary interactions on rt.debian.org. A prominent DSA member's response: "It's easier that way, for you and for us." At some point, DSA also told me I made changes to their systems too frequently. Nice solution! At some point, I tried to share my vision of a real-time system that can browse tags online. The response: "There is a trend toward static pages at Debian." As far as I can tell, DSA and I live on two different planets—which, to be fair, is not an unusual feeling from my perspective in California's Silicon Valley. In any event, I do not control the domain lintian.d.o, so whatever I am working on will remain a test version unless people decide it works better. That should be the goal. I do not understand how your message did anything to make Lintian, or Debian, better. Kind regards Felix Lechner
Bug#973333: lintian.d.o: please add a symlink/redirect to the most recent version
Le mercredi 28 octobre 2020 à 20:17:11-0700, Felix Lechner a écrit : > Hi Paul, > > On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 7:39 PM Paul Wise wrote: > > > > Since most folks would only be interested in the lintian results for > > the latest version in unstable, it would be nice if the middle click > > could be eliminated using a symlink or redirect. An "all versions" link > > could be added for folks who are interested in that. > > We just found a hosting provider for our new dynamic web site. It will > be an experiment for the time being, but is expected to bring this > feature, as well as many others, based on queries in a Postgres > database that is already installed there. Hi Felix, First of all, thanks for your work in lintian! I could not help but have a concern reading your reply. It feels to me that you could have the intent to move the *production* lintian site out of Debian's machines. Of course I could understand that a *test* version of lintian.debian.org would be hosted somewhere else. But I (and I'm probably not alone) would have a really hard time understanding or accepting that the production version moved outside of debian.org and on a non-controlled Debian machine. Lintian is debian-centric, and its checks have influence on many parts of the infra. To me it needs to stay in Debian for the production part. I hope you understand that. Cheers! -- Pierre-Elliott Bécue GPG: 9AE0 4D98 6400 E3B6 7528 F493 0D44 2664 1949 74E2 It's far easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Bug#973333: lintian.d.o: please add a symlink/redirect to the most recent version
Hi Paul, On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 7:39 PM Paul Wise wrote: > > Since most folks would only be interested in the lintian results for > the latest version in unstable, it would be nice if the middle click > could be eliminated using a symlink or redirect. An "all versions" link > could be added for folks who are interested in that. We just found a hosting provider for our new dynamic web site. It will be an experiment for the time being, but is expected to bring this feature, as well as many others, based on queries in a Postgres database that is already installed there. Kind regards Felix Lechner
Bug#973333: lintian.d.o: please add a symlink/redirect to the most recent version
Package: lintian Severity: wishlist When clicking through to lintian.d.o from tracker.d.o and other places, there is an extra click from the source package page to the source package version page containing the actual lintian results. https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/iotop -> https://lintian.debian.org/sources/iotop.html -> https://lintian.debian.org/sources/iotop/0.6-24-g733f3f8-1.1.html Since most folks would only be interested in the lintian results for the latest version in unstable, it would be nice if the middle click could be eliminated using a symlink or redirect. An "all versions" link could be added for folks who are interested in that. -- bye, pabs https://wiki.debian.org/PaulWise signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
